The Tavern

OOFs are a pretty iconic enemy in crawl, and the closest thing the 3 rune game has to a boss. You have to have some plan on how to deal with these things, usually involving rF++ and perhaps rMut. They're basically immune to elemental damage, and they're really fast to boot.

But are they good enemies? Do they make crawl a better game for their existence?

I think OOFs are too important. Many builds have to make some special considerations just for this one enemy. Usually, those special considerations are rF++ and some way to deal physical damage. Hexes and elemental damage spells are basically useless. Summons are mostly useless. Short blades are pretty useless, due to high AC. AC and rF are the only defenses that matter against it.

I don't know what the dev team thinks of this. But I think OOFs are too limiting, strategies that get you through the rest of the 3 rune game just fine suddenly don't work against this one enemy.

I don't have a problem with a super tough enemy at the end of the game. But I'd rather it be less of a limiting enemy, not immune to elemental damage, not just dealing huge amounts of un-dodgeable fire damage. An enemy you have to use the best tools of your character to deal with, rather than an enemy you just need to have a separate toolset for.

Short blades are bad on everything, not sure what your point is there.

dowan wrote:You have to have some plan on how to deal with these things

Luckily the plan of "avoid them" works for all characters, they're not limiting.

I think oofs would be a good enemy if resistances didn't exist in crawl, but with resistances they are awkward.

I am not sure duvessa is serious here. Assume that you are unspoiled new player and you enter Zot 5 for the first time. You see an OoF. What next? Avoid it by teleport? Escape by haste and run to stairs and reenter via another stairs?

It is true that many characters need something special for OoF (and ancient liches), sometimes apart from the main build of the character. But your post contains many inaccuracies.

Bolt of fire is dodgeable, fireball is not. Summons are hardly useless. Mana vipers are good, so are high level summons like Dragon's call and XXX. Simulacrum also works well. Short blades can be combined with warp weapon if you really want.

So yes.

In my experience, casting a summon spell near an oof is a good way to eat a fireball, and have no summons. I admit I haven't used dragon's call or XXX on them. I'd really like to see how you can use simulacrum against them (unless you mean with kiku), and even then, fireball (and they are very resistant to cold).

The fireball is the undodgeable attack, it's true that you can dodge the bolt, but AC works against the bolt and the ball. So EV is only useless against 2/3 of their attacks.

Short blades can be combined with warp weapon, sure, they can also be combined with orb of destruction.

You can avoid them, it's true, there's nothing stopping you from just turning around and exiting D1 without the orb. But for characters who want to win, it's pretty damn hard to avoid them. They're faster than you, they see invis, they're magic immune... So the only way to avoid them is either eat a bunch of fireballs while sauntering past them, or hope for a good teleport roulette outcome on Z5.

Why do OOFs have malmutate? Every other mutating enemy in the game (besides Mnoleg) provides opportunities for tactics to avoid getting mutated. None of them are particularly fast or have big AoE abilities, so you can use careful positioning and/or summons (even just summon butterflies) to avoid LOF, and they're all squishy, so you can generally kill them pretty quickly when they are in LOF. But Orbs of Fire are fast, tanky, and can melt through the vast majority of summoned enemies like butter, so unless I'm missing something, there's no real tactics that let you avoid getting malmutated by them if you don't have rMut. You just have to hope you don't get anything too bad.

Overall, I think OOFs are a good enemy in the sense that they often create very interesting, dangerous, and challenging situations towards the end of the game (where such situations seem desirable), but they often feel too much like a gear-check to me. I don't like the feeling that rF is borderline mandatory to win a 3-rune game (while no other resistance comes close) or the aforementioned mutation issue. But I'd rather see them changed to address these issues than removed. Overall, I agree with dowan. The most powerful enemy in Zot feels like it should be the ultimate test of your character's abilities, but there are so many normal effects that don't work on OOFs that on some characters they seem more like a special enemy you have to go out of your way to prepare for than a good final boss fight.

Radical proposal: Move OOFs to Gehenna. Come up with a new "final boss" type enemy for Zot 5 that is just as challenging, but doesn't eliminate as many strategies and isn't as dependent on rF.

Less radical proposal: Replace Malmutate on OoFs with something that creates more interesting tactical situations. Reduce their damage, but make it partially irresistible (i.e. make them do more damage with rF+++ but less damage with no rF). Consider reducing the number of immunities they have.

I had prolems with OoF on characters with Dragon Call and Kiku's Simulacrum, the spells are not that great indeed. Main problem with OoF is that it is too different monster and unlike all other monsters with high AC/immune MR/almost immune resists/normal speed/optional branches, you must be prepared to kill them if you want to win (tele roulette is too dangerous on Zot 5 and can kill most characters with bad luck)

IME Dragon Call murders them for good. I killed one with Simulacrum once I think. Should work if you are ready to tank some fireballs.

Sandman25 wrote:Dragon's Call[skipped]I had been thinking that the spell is OP before I got very serious problems vs 2 Orbs of Fire in Zot 5, random teleporting is not good.

Quazifuji wrote:Why do OOFs have malmutate?

1) because they're flavored as radioactive, 2) because a spell that more or less does nothing makes them considerably easier.

@Sandman25: random tele is not very good indeed, but that doesn't really make Dragon Call awful. Normally you will be on the edge of LoS while dragons will spawn next to oof and mob it, they can even trample it around while you try to keep your distance and keep line of fire closed. Also normally you don't engage 2 oofs (unless you can and don't care).

I like orbs of fire in general, but I think a monster who is only capable of generating fire damage is always going to be a bit of a problem. If you have no rF you're screwed, rF+ is a good fair fight, and if you have rF++ or rF+++, then orbs aren't really dangerous. They fail to be the big boss they're intended to be. Because of that random rF++ ring you found, now there's no end game in zot:5. I think ancient liches are much more versatile, because they can do any damage type, and additionally summon fiends which are all quite dangerous on their own.

I agree there's a lot of flavor and they are at this point iconic, but they used to be swords, so they've already changed once. The only thing I'd change in a redesign is to make them use high level pure conjurations (monster only arcane bolt, arcane fireball?) which aren't resistible. Raw dice half of their current fire versions, now all characters effectively have rF+ when fighting them, regardless of what your actual fire resistance is. Orb of Arcane Fire?

Sar wrote:@Sandman25: random tele is not very good indeed, but that doesn't really make Dragon Call awful. Normally you will be on the edge of LoS while dragons will spawn next to oof and mob it, they can even trample it around while you try to keep your distance and keep line of fire closed. Also normally you don't engage 2 oofs (unless you can and don't care).

I meant that I had to use random tele because I had no choice (as VS, no less!). Dragon's Call was too weak vs 2 OoFs.

they're the only enemy I ever actually worry about going into Zot so i'm gonna go with Yes on this one OP

I feel like Aliches mostly cover the boss niche, except for the highly problematic silence and dispel undead vulnerabilities.

dowan wrote: I'd really like to see how you can use simulacrum against them (unless you mean with kiku), and even then, fireball (and they are very resistant to cold).

You can check this game if you want to see me using simulacrum. A bunch of dragon simulacra can take down anything, and they also distract the OoF, so you can get stabs in.

It's not a "guaranteed kill" or "easy peasy", but simulacrum is only a lvl 6 spell.

Summons/Simulacrum work until the OoF decides to get trigger happy with Fireball.

Sometimes they just don't. All in all a single OoF is usually not a problem for anyone with potions left. It just takes a while.

Buuut when another OoF/Moth of wrath + Orb Guardians/Ancient Lich decides to join the party things get fun. Here's where their speed and durability makes them shine.

I don't mind rF being the endgame resistance - it's not like I don't prepare myself for earlier branches in different ways. Kinda annoying that AC/rF work so well though.

If you manage to get simulacra behind oof and you stand in front it won't reach them with the fireball. Free damage!

I've used Shadow Creatures against OoFs successfully. Very often I use misc evokables for support (some damage + distraction). Silver javelins are good. For conjurer-type spellcasters it's typically OoD or Iron Shot.

I think most characters have some way of killing orbs of fire without intentionally getting a way of killing them. Even if some characters don't I don't think it's really a problem.
Maybe orbs of fire can be reflavored to use both fire and ice spells, and their spell damage slightly reduced, so that you don't die too easily with 1 rF but you must get 1 rC in exchange. The point of this is that getting 1 rF and 1 rC is easier than getting 2 rF, and hopefully the orbs of fire are not less dangerous because of this (easiness of getting the resists excluded). I don't think this has any chance of happening because orb of fire flavor is too strong. Or maybe there can be orbs of fire and orbs of ice and they do a little less damage than what orbs of fire do now, so that again you don't die too easily with 1 rF but you must have 1 rC.

To avoid the special strategizing and gear-check aspect, instead of changing OoFs, more flavored orbs of roughly similar difficulty could be added:

Orb of Cold: Glaciate, Freezing Cloud, high AC, rC+++, rF-
Storming Orb: Chain Lightning, ???
Arcane Orb: pure conjurations, very high MR
etc.

Your precious rF+++/rMut won't do jack against an Orb of Cold!

Note: this would make Zot much more difficult in the majority of games. It could encourage undesirable perfect play: carry around lots of excess equipment (or, god forbid, move around a stash between floors), flee to change into appropriate gear. Perhaps the orbs could change variety mid-encounter like ugly things? That seems tough to balance, though.

I've also thought about different flavoured OoFs but instead of having them all, only one type would be generated per game, selected randomly. So until you saw the first OoF, you wouldn't know which resistance is crucial.

The Ferret wrote:Arcane Orb: pure conjurations, very high MR

OoFs already have MR: immune.

Firstly, the need of multiple levels of fire resistance has negative impact on equipment selection, often narrowing it to subpar body armours of fire resistance if no rF++ artifact / volcano aux armour has been found. If OOFs were less common in zot:5, resistance need would be only mediocre issue, because there are potions of resistance. Relying on them is tricky though, because 8+ OOFs happen and one can hardly hoard a sufficient stack of potions.

There is no other resistance needed in Zot. Even rElec does not come close, as electric golems' bolts can be avoided. On the other side, depending on the ability to deal heavy damage to OOFs, even rF++ might be insufficient for some otherwise perfectly playable characters.

OOFs penalize EV/SH oriented characters as no other place in the game does. Fireballs bypass these defenses and there is no guarantee that OOF won't use fireballs five times in a row.

What makes OOF particularly annoying is the lack of any weak point besides of vulnerability to silver, which requires a scarce resource and a particular ranged skill to take advantage of. Can the design of Zot monsters be more interesting? Of course, just look at ancient liches, which come with deadly spell repertoire, yet they are also vulnerable to multiple strategies (netting / silence / dispel / holy weapons).

I believe it is not that difficult to make OOFs more interesting. I think that any of these changes would be worth thinking of: 1) significant reduction of fireball damage, some reduction of bolt damage, possibly increased melee damage 2) taking away sInv 3) taking away rC++ up to the level of rC- or normal resistance 4) significant reduction of AC/HP. 5) removing ranged attacks altogether, providing some alternative effects - e.g. aura which lowers fire resist and summon fire elemental spell.

Bart wrote:Firstly, the need of multiple levels of fire resistance has negative impact on equipment selection, often narrowing it to subpar body armours of fire resistance

They are subpar because there isn't enough general need for resistances to bring them up to par. And there is a vicious cycle: the lack of need for resistances means that there's not a need for there to be a lot of resistance-bearing items. And the lack of need to spawn resistance-bearing items means the best you have are more likely to be subpar.

A better path to a solution, I think, is to tweak the monster selection so that resistances are more commonly relevant, possibly coupled with expanded armor selections. e.g. so that "do I wear this unenchantable 0 AC bracers of cold resistance instead of my +2 gloves of str?" is actually a serious general purpose question, rather than something you would only ever think when going to visit Cocytus.

Early game is a bad version of OoF.

Since OoF is a end game monsters, you can be prepared to deal with it.

Early game, can not be prepared to deal with it.

Even if you can not be that you kill OoF, you can play up to zot. (Or 15-rune)

If you can not survive the early game, it will not be able to play other than the early game.

In the early game, almost all of the mid/late game strategy does not work completely. (Except tab spam/spell spam/berserk spam/no-brainer escape/infinity patience)

grinder is a bad version of OoF. You can use the berserk or net, you can either stupid death, escape. (Very boring and does not have any options)
And, grinder also disable most of the tactical options available in the early game.

The main thing I wish was different about OOF is not their danger or damage output, but their total immunity to everything that isn't plain unbranded damage. On a lot of characters - such as my current DgEn - I really do start planning how I'm going to handle OOFs by maybe xl17. All this means is, such characters can't continue in the groove they developed for early/midgame, they have to pick up OOD/iron shot or non-stabby melee on the side. In other words it makes them have to converge to a similar type of character, despite their diverse starts, and I see that as a loss for the depth of the game.

On the other hand, the boring melee bashers get let off easy in this regard, because their damage works on everything. I'd like to see some enemies (intangible ghosts, for example, or cloud spirits, or swarms of tiny bees) that are immune to unbranded damage so a melee basher or pure conj specialist has to use evocations or flaming/freezing/holy/etc weapons to hurt them. There are a lot of enemies in this game where it doesn't make sense that hitting them with a solid object would hurt them at all.

@Berder: Would you pull your intangible monster thing to its own thread? I don't seem to be able to split individual posts.

OoFs are the perfect endgame monster. As you approach the win, they appear to remind you what the game you just played was all about: heavy armor and big, two-handed weapons and/or triple crossbows. If you thought you were going to win with low cunning (e.g. hexes, short swords, stealth, etc.) OoFs show you what's up.

I stabbed an oof once and it died

should I report this on mantis

Berder wrote:All this means is, such characters can't continue in the groove they developed for early/midgame, they have to pick up OOD/iron shot or non-stabby melee on the side. In other words it makes them have to converge to a similar type of character, despite their diverse starts, and I see that as a loss for the depth of the game.

OoF do not have total immunity to cold. Also, I do not see how god powers, warp weapon, summons, necromancy, silver javelins, crossbows, or even very high level conjurations like fire storm or glaciate fall into this category.

The whole point of earth magic or pure conjurations is that they work against everything. They have reduced range or less damage or are single target or some other stuff to compensate.

Really, there are plenty of ways to handle OoFs. Which is not to say that whatever you were doing up until the end would work against them. But is it so shocking that the final floor in the game has a "boss" enemy, which requires something different?

It's not shocking at all. And they're not even the only boss enemy, Aliches and elec golems cover that niche too. It's just that those other enemies can usually be dealt with in the same way you've dealt with the rest of the game, and OOFs demand special preparations that cause characters to converge on certain strategies to kill them.

I'm not saying any particular course of action is required, I'm just trying to see if anyone else feels the same way I do about them. Surprise surprise, some people agree, and some disagree. Some people have also suggested less common ways of dealing with them, which is always a good thing.

Orb of Fire + Orb of Cold + Orb of Air + Orb of Earth + Orb of Hexes (the latter attacks player with different MR resistant statuses) and I will be happy: no more weird tactic "I will use ring of fire by default because it's better to have rF++ and no rC than rF+ and rC+".

Shifted to advice since there's a bunch of that and this doesn't fit in GDD.

I've always had kinda mixed feelings about gathering at least rF++ for Zot.
Not that almost any char can deal with one, hasn't been an issue. Even a heavy hex-user/shortblader is supposed to have an alternative strategy for them by the time they meet them. Now, is that a bad thing?

I have no answer. I've dealt with them from the beginning, and yes oh yes, they do require some preparing.

If it is okay for the game to require rF for Zot? I don't know, since it's always been this way. Overemphasis on fire resistance is something that has been toned down a bit but OoF:s still exist. But.. I dunno..

What else would you see more important on zot:5 if you wanna maintain it's dangerous nature? rC? MR (it's already very important)? rPois..? give me a break..

rN? possibility..

For me OoF:s are fine. Generic but fine.

MarvinPA wrote:Shifted to advice since there's a bunch of that and this doesn't fit in GDD.

Well, it was intended as a Discussion of the Game Design, about whether OOFs are good Game Design. Naturally some advice happened with it, it's unavoidable when discussing specific monster design. There's advice in the Salamander Stormcaller topic too...

Oh well, I don't make the rules. Feel free to give advice on how to deal with OOFs I guess.

Here, I'll start:
Method 1: Get rF++(+). rMut is also a good idea. Deal large amounts of physical damage to them.

dowan wrote:Here, I'll start:
Method 1: Get rF++(+). rMut is also a good idea. Deal large amounts of physical damage to them.

Allow me to expand on that. Pretend you're playing Nethack. Now get your ascension kit together. Now ascend.

I've always had trouble in nethack but now I clearly will do better if I ever try it again by following this guide!

dowan wrote:But are they good enemies? Do they make crawl a better game for their existence?

They kill players, so the answer is a resounding: YES!

dowan wrote:
MarvinPA wrote:Shifted to advice since there's a bunch of that and this doesn't fit in GDD.

Well, it was intended as a Discussion of the Game Design, about whether OOFs are good Game Design. Naturally some advice happened with it, it's unavoidable when discussing specific monster design. There's advice in the Salamander Stormcaller topic too...

yeah but that ones different. a dev made it!

dowan wrote:They're basically immune to elemental damage, and they're really fast to boot. (...)
Hexes and elemental damage spells are basically useless. Summons are mostly useless.

Well, I have killed Orbs with each of the 4 elemental schools and also with summons, so I am a bit baffled here.

dowan wrote:I don't have a problem with a super tough enemy at the end of the game. But I'd rather it be less of a limiting enemy, not immune to elemental damage, not just dealing huge amounts of un-dodgeable fire damage. An enemy you have to use the best tools of your character to deal with, rather than an enemy you just need to have a separate toolset for.

There are ancient liches.

Despite the name, GDD is not meant to discuss game design. It is meant to discuss concrete proposals. For instance, if you wish to propose some new Zot:5 monster. or some concrete change to OoF.

byrel wrote:Allow me to expand on that. Pretend you're playing Nethack. Now get your ascension kit together. Now ascend.

gray dragon scale mail
cloak of displacement
shield of reflection
amulet of free action
boots of speed
helm of brilliance
gauntlets of strength
blessed unicorn horn
blessed luckstone
blessed back of holding
wand of death
4 scrolls of gold detection
a lizard corpse
wand of digging
ring of levitation
blessed potions of full healing

I probably forgot something but damn I'm already having trouble finding some of these things!

They make me do more than hit Tab, so yeah, I'd say they are good enemies.

And I second Sprucery. My backup plan to take them out is usually Shadow Critters.

can't say i like them but i learned to respect them greatly. theyve got an ugly habit of coming into los paired with ancient liches or other orbs though

Sprucery wrote:
byrel wrote:Allow me to expand on that. Pretend you're playing Nethack. Now get your ascension kit together. Now ascend.

gray dragon scale mail
cloak of displacement
shield of reflection
amulet of free action
boots of speed
helm of brilliance
gauntlets of strength
blessed unicorn horn
blessed luckstone
blessed back of holding
wand of death
4 scrolls of gold detection
a lizard corpse
wand of digging
ring of levitation
blessed potions of full healing
I probably forgot something but damn I'm already having trouble finding some of these things!

I've played nethack about a year ago, so I still remember the acention kit pretty well. Gray dragon scale mail is an option but I prefer silver dragon scale mail as magic resistance has more sources (cloak of magic resistance, magicbane, another roles quest artifact). Cloak of displacement is good except it only grants MC 2,any MC 3 cloak is ok, elven cloak and cloak of magic resistance are probably the best. Shield of reflection- Any scouce of reflection is fine, and dual wielding is OP if your role can do it. Free action is on a ring. There is a spell that duplicates the effect of boots of speed, so if you can find it you don't need them. Any helm will do, brilliance is nice but not really needed, I think I actually ascended without headgear the one time I beat nethack. Gauntlets of power* aren't necessary if your race can hit 18/** str. You do need the unicorn horn. You can skip the luckstone if you hit max level and play during a full moon (or just set your clock so the game thinks it is a full moon). Wand of death, 4 scrolls of gold detection, a lizard corpse, wand of digging-all highly recommended but technically not needed, except the lizard corpse. Boots of levitation and Fireproof boots of water walking will work instead of the ring. The healing potions are nice but it is possible to win without them if you have high (low) AC and/or grind you HP to insane amounts. Blessed tins of nurse meat also restor HP to max, but take two turns to consume. You're forgetting the +7 artefact weapon and the amulets of life saving.

TLDR; Nethack takes a lot of memorization of arbitrary knowledge rather than good tactics to win, which is why I play crawl now.

bel wrote:Despite the name, GDD is not meant to discuss game design.

I like using it to discuss game design, but this just goes to show that there isn't alway consensus about stuff.

dowan wrote:elemental damage spells are basically useless

Recently I have found that firestorming a pack of OOFs is a good strategy.

Even high-power Throw Icicle does the job.

Sprucery wrote:
byrel wrote:Allow me to expand on that. Pretend you're playing Nethack. Now get your ascension kit together. Now ascend.

gray dragon scale mail
cloak of displacement
shield of reflection
amulet of free action
boots of speed
helm of brilliance
gauntlets of strength
blessed unicorn horn
blessed luckstone
blessed back of holding
wand of death
4 scrolls of gold detection
a lizard corpse
wand of digging
ring of levitation
blessed potions of full healing
I probably forgot something but damn I'm already having trouble finding some of these things!

Well, I ascended Nethack 4-5 times. And while badwiki will tell you you need all sorts of things, once you ascend a couple times you start realizing that they're equipping you for idiot-proof ascension. And since you managed to get to that point, you're not an idiot.

What you need:

The basic invocation Macguffins, plus candles to fill the Candelabrum
Some source of MR
Some dragon scale mail (about as hard to find as it is in crawl, but with no downsides)
Unicorn horn (you've been carrying this since midgame)
Some source of levitation (spell, stack of potions, ring, boots, whatever)
Some source of portal detection (scroll of gold detection, wand of secret door detection, whatever)*
Good AC
Some method of dealing with hordes of adventurers and priests. Can be good weapon(s), good spells, ring of conflict, pet purple worm, or whatever.

*I've ascended without this once, but it was tedious and obnoxious. The amulet of yendor itself will play hot-and-cold for portal detection. Would not do again.

Things like lizards, etc. are overrated. Any good cloak will protect you from slow stoning, and on the rare chance it pierces, you can just pray it off. Though lizard corpses don't rot, so you can carry them as comestibles if it's convenient.

It's really not that much longer than a crawl ascension kit. Crawl has the advantage of being less kitified, which is one of the reasons I play it more. You can have EV instead of AC. Or just a boatload of HP. You still need some source of rF++ and rMut (or a ridiculous number of potions.) You still need either irresistable damage or ninja tools.

And the fact that the specific resistances you need are caused by exactly one type of endgame monster is poor design. It'd be one thing if Zot:5 was hell-themed or something and there was a general theme benefit to high rF. That would be good design. This level is clearly a fire level, and new people will understand going in they should have fire resist. If it was a realm of fire and chaos, mut resistance would make a lot of sense too.

But as it is, there's this one stupid monster who happens to have the highest HD in the game, generally not show up anywhere else in similarly themed levels (Zot1-4) and be the only monster to combine fire and malmutation attacks. And randomly is unaffected by some tools for dealing with enemy casters (silence). On a level where there are no significant equivalent threats of other types, aside from torment from summoned fiends. This suffers from a lack of theming and coherancy. I really think it should be reconsidered. Though I'm not sure what the best answer is... it's got to be better than this spoilery mess.

The Tavern

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