Stuck in a rut - Combo advice


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 11:10

Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Hey all, I need some suggestions...

I have this thing where I only play the species I havent won yet, and it's starting to bum me out. I really want to go back and play some of the species that I enjoyed, but brain bugs are brain bugs. Thing is the ones I got left are either the ones I find dull or the ones that are fiddly in some way. Im looking for some advice on backgrounds and deities to match up with these species. I dont mind which backgrounds/gods, thankfully I only decided on a species conduct when I came here.

Ive been playing most of the remaining ones in rotation but I just suck at all of them it feels.

To be won:

Human:
Demigod:
Naga:
Draconian:
Mummy:
Ghoul:
Felid:
Octopode:

Of these the only one I've played a lot of is Mummy. Killed about 500 Fi/Ne, mostly of Ash. I know I can win that one given some earlygame luck but I stopped grinding it a while back to knock a bunch of the others off the list since it makes up something like 45% of my played games. Human and Demigod I just haven't really played since they felt dull and I liked working with some kind of quirk at least.

What god/background would you pick for these? 3-rune.
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ldf

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 11:17

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Be. IE for demigod.

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Sandman25

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 12:39

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Draconinan blasters should be quite easy. I too am trying to win all species. :) My draconian started out as a Conjurer, turned white and ended up as an ice mage of Vehmute.

Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 12:56

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

you could try sequell commands for ideas (in ##crawl) :D
  Code:
<kramin42> !goodchar hu--|dg|op|fe--|na|dr|mu|gh
<Sequell> The RNG chooses: NaHu

and some more:
  Code:
<Sequell> The RNG chooses: OpTm
<Sequell> The RNG chooses: MuAs
<Sequell> The RNG chooses: FeMo
<Sequell> The RNG chooses: OpGl
<Sequell> The RNG chooses: DrCj
<Sequell> The RNG chooses: OpWz
<Sequell> The RNG chooses: NaWr


Most of these seem like decent choices, personally I find spamming the same combo just makes me bored so I like to try different backgrounds if I want to win a species until I get something that works. e.g., after trying a bunch of felids I finally won with a FeIE^Ash :)

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 17:05

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Humans aren't bad, although I can see why you consider them a bit boring. To spice them up, why not play a HuCK, or a HuWn?

Everyone says DgIE, which is quite effective, but I find both pretty boring. DgFE on the other hand is a flaming barrel of laughs. At least, I thought it was entertaining.

NaTM is a fun combo once you get it off the ground. Most forms gets you normal movement speed, which can be quite helpful. For some reason, you can still spit while in your various forms, which is extra fun.

Dr are another species that just seems a bit dull to me, it makes sense to go with some kind of spellcaster to take advantage of the lack of body armor encumbrance. Conjurer is a pretty safe bet. Probably this is a good one to play in between your more interesting runs.

Mummies are tough, although the lack of a food clock really makes me happy. I had good luck with MuGl, and this is the one species where Gozag fits pretty well, so it can be interesting.

Ghoul Monk is a sensible option. Go with Yred for easy mode. Eat lots of chunks, kill guys, nothing too special here.

Someone else can probably give you better advice than I can for the boring animal species.

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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 17:06

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

ldf wrote:Be. IE for demigod.

I wouldn't call MuBe and GhBe the easiest options (although they are playable).

If you are looking for some variety without too much challenge, my recommendations would be:
Human: anything works
Demigod: DgCj, because you do not have to worry about a new book for a long time
Naga: NaWz, because conjure flame and blink are good for slow species
Draconian: DrTm, because you can't use armour anyway, so why not have fun with dragon form
Mummy: MuSu or MuNe, because they are tedious, yet efficient
Ghoul: GhMo, because it is straightforward and fast
Felid: FeFE, because you can set stuff on fire and kite without too much danger
Octopode: OpIE, because Ozocubu's armour is the only serious AC you can get easily

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 17:10

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Bart wrote:I wouldn't call MuBe and GhBe the easiest options (although they are playable)


It depends on player. IMHO new players have higher chance to win with gods who provide strong panic buttons and Trog is the best here. If player can win MuSu, he does not ask advices IMHO.

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 18:35

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

I think Dr are one of the most entertaining options on that list because of the random type at lvl 7 that can affect your skills etc.

Draconians are pretty flexible (obviously) so it's one of the cases where I actually enjoy playing Wn. Pretty much just let the RNG guide you. A DrWn that turned into a melee-ish yellow Dr was one of the few characters I ended up ascending with 15 runes with.

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 18:41

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Sandman25 wrote:
Bart wrote:I wouldn't call MuBe and GhBe the easiest options (although they are playable)


It depends on player. IMHO new players have higher chance to win with gods who provide strong panic buttons and Trog is the best here. If player can win MuSu, he does not ask advices IMHO.

But the strongest, most important early panic button doesn't work. No berserk means trog has no strong panic button until 6*. Hand of trog is of course strong and useful, but hardly a panic button.

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rockygargoyle

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 18:46

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Well I'd call it a very strong panic button for a Mu stumbling upon D:3 Sigmund\orc wizard with confuse
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 18:48

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

dowan wrote:But the strongest, most important early panic button doesn't work. No berserk means trog has no strong panic button until 6*. Hand of trog is of course strong and useful, but hardly a panic button.


I use hand of trog as panic button, the most obvious case is Erolcha.
Fedhas does not accept Gh/Mu, Okawaru requires careful play (late Heroism is not a big deal), what other gods are better than Trog-without-berserk for melee characters?
MuAK is probably the best though. I am not sure if Yred's draining works with Gh/Mu.

Sar

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 18:53

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

I had a lot of pain trying to make NaWz work for some reason. I don't know, maybe it's just me being bad in general but it felt pretty crappy in the early game.

IE is obviously amazing for a Na but IE is just so good in general.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 19:01

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Getting a mummy to the point of worrying about erolcha isn't exactly the easy part. Oka gives heroism at 1*, which is very helpful, although it's true that it's no panic button, you have to plan ahead. Of course, trog's hand also requires you to plan ahead, it doesn't remove confusion or cancel being banished.

I totally agree that trog's hand is very useful. However heroism protects you from all enemies, not just the kind that cast hexes(It gives Ac and EV, plus makes you kill stuff faster). Heroism of course doesn't give regen, but it also doesn't prevent you from casting spells.

The obvious problem with this comparison is that you cannot start with oka, you can start with trog. If DK still existed it would be the clear best option, as yred is easy mode for any race. Yred might still be the best option, especially if you can find an early altar.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 8th June 2015, 22:52

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

DgCj remains my favorite Dg background, because the conjuror spellbook alone will carry you to level 20 if you have to. You can't go terribly wrong with IE of course, it's just a second option.

For nagas.. http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Tasonir%27s ... Naga_Guide ;)

Monk or Tm are the more obvious ways to start this - tm is nice because you'll probably stick with blade hands and it's great to have it right away, but it's a weak background. Monk is considerably stronger out of the gate, but you'll have to actually find transmutations. Playing with a weapon is a very simple change and probably makes it better, I just like absurd amounts of damage. Polearms are probably your best bet weapon-wise.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 06:32

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

I apologize if you think this is mean, but it blows my mind that anyone would fail at something 500 times for fun. I think your focus should be on getting tactical advice and improving rather than new combos.

As for your question:
- Human, Draconian, Demigod: anything reasonable should work. Drac and Demi should supplement melee with utility spells.
- Naga: I really don't like this race and can only suggest avoiding it at this time
- Mummy with evoc, Octopode with spells: Fighter of Gozag
- Ghoul: Fighter of Kiku, no spells
- Felid: I haven't played this because huge handicaps don't seem fun. CK or Be are probably best.

Some gods are just poor choices (Oka, Ely, Jiyva, Nem). I might make a post on god categories; what is best depends on what you have trouble with and what playstyle you enjoy.

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Sandman25

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 07:45

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

linear wrote:I apologize if you think this is mean, but it blows my mind that anyone would fail at something 500 times for fun.
i dunno man it works for adam sandler

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 11:21

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

linear wrote:- Human, Draconian, Demigod: anything reasonable should work. Drac and Demi should supplement melee with utility spells.
- Naga: I really don't like this race and can only suggest avoiding it at this time
- Mummy with evoc, Octopode with spells: Fighter of Gozag
- Ghoul: Fighter of Kiku, no spells
- Felid: I haven't played this because huge handicaps don't seem fun. CK or Be are probably best.


This isn't CYC.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 11:22

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

linear wrote:Some gods are just poor choices (Oka, Ely, Jiyva, Nem).

Is Oka a poor choice now? In 0.16 Oka is still very good imo.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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ldf

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 11:46

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

linear wrote:CK or Be are probably best.

It blows my mind that someone would call FeCK best at something and even compare it to FeBe.

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Sandman25

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 11:48

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

ldf wrote:
linear wrote:CK or Be are probably best.

It blows my mind that someone would call FeCK best at something and even compare it to FeBe.

Both are Fe, therefore both suck. Not as bad a comparison as an ordinary "Be vs CK" would be.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 12:37

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

linear wrote:I apologize if you think this is mean, but it blows my mind that anyone would fail at something 500 times for fun. I think your focus should be on getting tactical advice and improving rather than new combos.


To be clear, I thanked for this mostly.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 14:32

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

linear wrote:- Ghoul: Fighter of Kiku, no spells

Kiku with no spells? Why would you do that?
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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Sar

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 14:44

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

obviously you go Kiku purely for food and torment

miasma bombs? disposable allies? nah that's useless. pain brand? no, you have claws 1 so gotta go UC

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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:03

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

tbh I always think corpse rot is gonna kick ass and then I remember it's a pain in the butt. But I can't stand the old conjure flame + confuse trick, either.

But as an undead of kiku I can see corpse rot being pretty baller.
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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:16

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

ldf wrote:
linear wrote:CK or Be are probably best.

It blows my mind that someone would call FeCK best at something and even compare it to FeBe.


I'm doing a TrCK right now. Xom continually helped me get through dangerous situations before Lair, and I'm now in Vaults with 24 levels of beneficial mutations on top of the racial mutations. That's a really big deal with limited body slots, so I think CK for Fe would be strong for Fe.
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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:25

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

The main downside of CK as I see it (besides taking up your god slot) is that Xom has a small but considerable (1-10%?) chance of killing you on any early dungeon level. Felids can often outrun his hostile summons/polymorphs, and if he does kill you, it's not the end of your run.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:29

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

njvack wrote:
linear wrote:- Ghoul: Fighter of Kiku, no spells

Kiku with no spells? Why would you do that?


Ghouls have the lowest starting intelligence (1) of all races, and they are natural melee fighters in heavy armor due to their high strength.

Torment is a great full-screen nuke for 3-4 runes that requires no sacrifice for undead or skill investment for max damage. Ru's and Chei's nukes require sacrifices, while Qaz's and Lugonu's require leveling Invoc.

You should level Necro a bit so that calling corpses gives you more than one. You can afford to have ~5% rotted hp before calling corpses to conserve piety. Miasma was never worth it for me.

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:33

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

miasma is slow+heavy damage that is only resisted by rPois (multiple levels of rPois IIRC)

Corpse Rot and Animate Skeleton/Dead are super cheap to get

you will want a lot of Necro anyway for pain (please don't tell me you actually ignore pain) on your whip to do a ton of damage

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:38

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

But they have claws 1 and UC skill 1 and m&f -1. It is clear you should use your fists!
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:39

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Sprucery wrote:
linear wrote:Some gods are just poor choices (Oka, Ely, Jiyva, Nem).

Is Oka a poor choice now? In 0.16 Oka is still very good imo.


I don't know what the consensus is on Oka, and he is a more reasonable choice for species with terrible aptitudes. I feel Mak (healing) and Dith (50% more offense) are much better low-maintenance gods for most species and backgrounds - plus they have nice active powers if you choose to level Invoc.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:42

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Dith shadow mimic attacks are not very good unless you use a launcher with good damage or something like a GSC. Even with a top tier onehander, for example, you will likely mostly see "Your shadow hits the foo but does no damage". Hero is available much earlier and is very good, and Finesse is probably the best combat buff in the game.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:48

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Sar wrote:Corpse Rot and Animate Skeleton/Dead are super cheap to get


They also don't depend on spell power. Intelligence has a multiplicative effect on power, but an additive effect on success rate. +15 intelligence is equivalent to +5 skill to all magic schools, in terms of spell success rate. So you can have very low failure rates with a little necro training and very low intelligence, and the effects of CR/AS/AD will be indistinguishable from characters with high intelligence. Then there's pain brand and Kiku abilities.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:48

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Plus, Oka gives you lots of stuff. A small fraction of that stuff will be useful! (Rolling +accuracy and +slaying into 1 modifier was a HUGE stealth buff for Oka)

Dith's not a bad choice, not for the extra damage, but because of that stealth boost and effective EV boost from umbra.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 16:52

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

linear wrote:I apologize if you think this is mean, but it blows my mind that anyone would fail at something 500 times for fun. I think your focus should be on getting tactical advice and improving rather than new combos.


This is probably sound advice, though of course what people find fun is very subjective.

The rest of the advice is pretty questionable, as others have pointed out.

If you really just want to win with each species, then go Be for the non-Dg, non-undead species. For Mummy and Ghoul, IE or Ne; Kiku is a good god choice. You might also want to try out ice elementalist on Fe and Op, if the low AC is really bumming you out (Oz's armor is great). For Demigod, pick your favorite elemental starting book, or go conjuror; ice is strongest overall, but any of those are solid choices for Dg.

Some gods are just poor choices (Oka, Ely, Jiyva, Nem). I might make a post on god categories; what is best depends on what you have trouble with and what playstyle you enjoy.


It is a bad idea to avoid worshiping a god until Lair/Slime in order to nab Jiyva, yes, but otherwise those are fine god choices (including Jiyva if you luck out and find an early vault with the slime altar). The other gods you mention have been nerfed to some extent or another recently, but they have also been made a lot less annoying (no corpse sacrifices, no forced employment in Nemelex's Dungeon Maid Service, etc.), and are still fine choices for many characters. I'm still tempted to worship at an early Okawaru altar on a lot of my dudes, even if that's not what I had been planning, because Heroism still comes online fast and is very strong.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 17:00

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Sandman25 wrote:
linear wrote:I apologize if you think this is mean, but it blows my mind that anyone would fail at something 500 times for fun. I think your focus should be on getting tactical advice and improving rather than new combos.


To be clear, I thanked for this mostly.



Yeah, I'll take that as you meant it, no offence meant => none taken. I shall now divert from my prepared remarks to explain why the fuck I have 500 dead Mu...
I dont play (have never played) offline, I started out playing Minotaurs until I won one (which happened in a reasonable time-frame). At that point I decided that the best way to learn crawl was to play the worst species. Barring a few oddballs with gimmicks (fe/op) I considered Mummy to be the worst and so I taught myself crawl by running (and splatting) those. Probably 450 of my 500 mummies lie in-between my first and second win (as seen in my sig). Hopefully (as also seen in my sig) I've become a somewhat better player since then. I wouldnt say I was particularly good at crawl, but i'm not as bad as it might seem. What I am is impatient and lazy, I know what the optimal courses are, even before I then do something else because I want it to happen with fewer key presses. This translates to a lot of early-D tabbing, which sometimes translates to kersplats where you just barrel into orc priest/wiz packs or whatever because your'e not paying attention and have already been crawling 8 hours straight.

Long story short, yes killing that many mummies was a little dull, but I learned through the process and I think I can confidently say I've improved significantly since then. A couple of them died in extended, since I was still after a 15-rune win at that time.

I let this thread run a bit before answering, wanted a reasonable spectrum of answers and was waiting for a few names I've come to respect to chime in.

First of all, many thanks for taking this seriously and giving motivation with your answers, which increases their value significantly.
Some specific feedback: Ghoul I was pleased to see people recommending Mo for, I ran a few of these with moderate success, Makh/Oka mainly, though since my recent TeMo^Chei I'll probably be adding him into the rotation since that was brutal damage output. (See, I've gone from a guy who splats 500 Mu to a guy who seriously entertains the thought of ^Chei). I probably wouldnt have thought of running kiku on a ghoul, but its not more wasteful than 'makh just for heals'. Maybe...but Oka is so baller on UC.

IE - yeah, its powerful and will always be in the backpocket for hard-starting species. I traditionally suck with IE however, have only once or twice got icicle online. Did some DgIE, will probably keep running that combo unless something else leaps out at me.

Human - Big thanks dowan! Chaos Knight made this much more fun. I've not done Xom before and probably wouldnt seriously consider him for other combos as I'm not so good that I want a harder run...but it really made playing Hu flavourful, I made XL10 with HuCK last night before Xom got bored and hotdropped high-tier demons on me in a corridor. I went to ?tele but he had got me with blurry vision some time before and I didnt make it. Was a blast though, will likely run again since a part of me wants a CK win.

Naga - Mix of advice on this one. May well revisit Tm, still never got one running. Also might well ^Chei one of these since im fairly happy playing that slow and the power boost he gives earlygame is immense.

Dracs - Tried a number of Cj^Veh. Thats a pretty good combo since its elementally neutral and fits any colour. I can probably get this one, its likely just a matter of time.

Op - hadnt thought of IE for ozu's armour, just shows how little I've played IE. Guess I'll try this one, or FE. I suppose one of those two would work well since you could feasibly find and stack enhancer rings on this combo.

Fe - I guess i'll make it some kind of mage to keep it out of melee.

Mu - Might be i'll try some Gozag mummies, I actually took him last night on a Mu, but he immediately ran into the business end of a GSC, so i'll try again. I was running Summoner, which I dont mind playing at all and quite like since derived undead started expiring. I'll still keep looking for advice after winning one though Sandman, I dont think anyone ever feels they know it all and have no questions ;)

There was some talk earlier of panic buttons, gods making earlygame a cakewalk and so forth...
There are a few things I just dont do, one of them is berserk. Even as a Be, I just tend not to do it. My OgBe winner went berserk exactly once and it was involuntary. Since then I've learned just how strong it actually is and how many times it can save you earlygame (Og had walls of hp and gsc{speed} so i guess he just didnt need it). So now I do berserk occasionally, but still nowhere near as much as anyone else I've watched. Just a personal thing, I am really picky about losing control of my character or even losing options, its why I wont necromutate.

This makes Trog questionable for me, since im not going to leverage him wheres he's most useful anyway and it locks me out of spellcasting, which pokes my brainbug.

I am fairly bad at remembering to use divine abilities altogether, which is why I did so much ^Ash to begin with. I've gotten better at this thanks to UC^Oka, where you really need to be leaning on Hero. Oka is still kickass A1 in trunk, those abilities rock as much as ever.

Dith upset me. I did FoFi Dith so I could use his shadowstep as an escape. But it doesnt work on plants/statues in trunk anymore, just sleeping mobs and i've gone right off the guy lately tbh. I like shadow mimic if im going to properly invest in a launcher. In melee, as Sar said, i'd rather have hero/fin.

Im pretty open with gods and have tried most at some point, I tend to pick the first of a list of 3-4 I draw up before the run. Early altar is key for certain deities. Nem I like and have won, newnem is pretty boss.

I should add that I enjoy every run, even where you splat 500 mummies... If this wasnt fun I wouldnt do it, and Im surprised that people are surprised, this is the internet guys, loads of different people and personalities remember?

Once again guys, thanks for all your contributions!
Last edited by celem on Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 17:20, edited 3 times in total.
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Sar

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 17:03

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

When I play IE, I get Ice Beasts much, much earlier than Throw Icicle. They're much more mana efficient, don't miss, can be cast with a relatively high fail. 3 beasts + Freeze clear Lair and beyond.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 17:18

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Sar wrote:When I play IE, I get Ice Beasts much, much earlier than Throw Icicle..


Yeah I think I've been racing ice and conjurations and relying on frost/freeze/melee. Might have to give this route a go, they are very strong for when you can get them up.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 17:33

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

For ice elementalist, you might want to try something like this:

Start off with freeze obviously, and turn off all skills except ice. You have very good odds 1 v 1 against anything that will spawn on the first floor, just thanks to freeze alone. Pick up a short sword or dagger or whatever for weak early undead, upgrade your weapon as you find better ones. I usually skip throw frost at level 2 [edit: but memorize it later on!]. At level 3 memorize oz's armor, then train just a bit of charms until oz's armor is somewhat reliable (like between 15 and 20% and gray or something).

Memorize summon ice beast as soon as you can after hitting level four (train spell casting if necessary) and then switch to only summoning, until it catches up with ice. Once ice beasts are at a reasonable failure rate (around 25%, and yellow is fine), you can pick up another level or two of spell casting if you want, but the next big priority is to train dodging, for even better defenses. Memorize throw frost when you have the spare slots. Early stat ups should go to intelligence, though once you start training dodging, you can put them into dex or int at your discretion. Throw icicle can and usually should wait.

Two ice beasts will take down just about any single enemy you'll go up against for quite some time, and three of them can wreck stuff pretty well. Due to how summons work, lower spell power and spell success aren't as big of an issue as tends to be the case with conjurations (like icicle). So basically this establishes your basic character quite nicely between character levels 7 and 8 or so, by which point you should then switch to training dodging.

Then you can do whatever. Got a good weapon? Get more dodging and train the weapon skill, then some fighting. Already nabbed an altar to Vehumet, Sif, or Kiku? Once you have some a bit of dodging under your belt, focus more on magic. In either case you should get some conjurations and throw icicle, but it can wait until after you have some good EV as an additional safety net, because beasts, freeze, and armor will take you very far on their own.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 19:03

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

celem wrote:Mu - Might be i'll try some Gozag mummies, I actually took him last night on a Mu, but he immediately ran into the business end of a GSC, so i'll try again. I was running Summoner, which I dont mind playing at all and quite like since derived undead started expiring. I'll still keep looking for advice after winning one though Sandman, I dont think anyone ever feels they know it all and have no questions ;)


Sorry, I believe you will stop saying something like "I suck at Hu/Dg/Dr" after winning MuSu :)
MuSu requires very careful play, all those species will feel OP after that

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 19:52

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

I usually don't skip Throw Frost/Flame - those spells are pretty good with high spellpower and occasionally useful without.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 20:01

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

They're very good for knocking out orc wizards and priests from range.

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Post Tuesday, 9th June 2015, 20:10

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Sar wrote:I usually don't skip Throw Frost/Flame - those spells are pretty good with high spellpower and occasionally useful without.


I go back and forth on this, to be honest. Do note that I didn't recommend skipping Throw Frost entirely, just skipping it at level two, and memorizing it later (added an edit to clarify this in my earlier post). It is definitely worth picking up, the only question is when to do so.

Personally, I find the damage too inconsistent from level 2 to 4 to justify the additional spell casting that you need to train to keep on track with oz's and then ice beast. (This isn't a problem with, like DE, and some other species; for DEIE I would generally pick up throw frost at level 2, and I would also pick up throw icicle earlier—still after beasts, but earlier than other species). But as I said, I have gone back and forth on this with my IEs, and I am definitely willing to reconsider or be proven wrong.

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Post Wednesday, 10th June 2015, 00:16

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

Sar wrote:Dith shadow mimic attacks are not very good unless you use a launcher with good damage or something like a GSC.


My second Dith run was with large rocks and GSC :) It worked really well, so I assumed the mimic was a clone of the player. But looking at the code, the mimic has a modified monster version of your skills. Good point.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 10th June 2015, 03:20

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

duvessa wrote:
linear wrote:I apologize if you think this is mean, but it blows my mind that anyone would fail at something 500 times for fun.
i dunno man it works for adam sandler

At least he got a rune in Spanglish and splatted on the orb run in Punch Drunk Love.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.
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Post Wednesday, 10th June 2015, 06:42

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

linear wrote:
Sar wrote:Dith shadow mimic attacks are not very good unless you use a launcher with good damage or something like a GSC.


My second Dith run was with large rocks and GSC :) It worked really well, so I assumed the mimic was a clone of the player. But looking at the code, the mimic has a modified monster version of your skills. Good point.


Dith is great for VM, as you get good fire support against poison resistant or even immune monsters.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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Post Wednesday, 10th June 2015, 14:57

Re: Stuck in a rut - Combo advice

and into wrote:Do note that I didn't recommend skipping Throw Frost entirely, just skipping it at level two, and memorizing it later (added an edit to clarify this in my earlier post).

I like to get it at L2, just so that I have a chance to kill early ogres and similar monsters safely.

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