Vampire...too weak in Extended

[radinms]

IMO Vp is a worst undead race in late game.
Even Mu can easily get all runes(http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/rad ... 025628.txt), but Vp without kiku have a very hard time.

If you play vampire, you have 3 options.

(1) full, alive
There is no reason to play alive vampire.
It is sure that alive vampire have a boost to regen, but it's very very small. And vampiric bite is not strong.

If you want to play stabber, you should not select alive vampire. Should select small races or VS.
If you want to play UC/magic and stealthy hybrid, you should not select alive vampire. Should select Mf, Na, VS. Even Gh, Mi or Tr are correct choice.

(2) Near Bloodless
You have rN+++, but regenerate slowly.
rN+++ is very good for torment, but not enough.
You still take 35% dmg. It is a big dmg, so you want more regeneration.
But regenerate slowly.
If you choose Gh or Mu, you have a complete immunity to torment, and regenerate normally.

(3) Bloodless
You have a complete immunity to torment, but stop regeneration.
Torment immunity is great at extended, but stop regeneration is always BAD BAD BAD BAD.
Some people say Bloodless vampire of Makhleb have a easy time at extended because of full resistance and passive healing.
But I lose Bloodless vampire even at Abyss(http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/rad ... 063453.txt).
So I concluded that Bloodless vampire of Makhleb is not easy.
Vampire IS NOT Deep Dwarf.
Vampire do not have a dmg reduction(But have a torment immunity), wand of heal wounds, and good HP.

Again. If you choose Gh or Mu, you have a complete immunity to torment, and regenerate normally.

[archaeo]

Vp is just the worst species in the game, period. It's not underpowered/overpowered or anything like that, it's just fiddly as heck and requires understanding a miserable table of bonuses and maluses at different hunger states to play even semi-optimally. I don't know how you fix any of this, and I strongly suspect that it would be easier to start from scratch than try to make Vp into something fun and playable.

[Berder]

I love vampire and will not have it smeared so!

Before extended, vampires are a fun and powerful race. They get fast regen if they want it, spriggan speed and flying if they want it, rPois, rN, rC++, and rRot if they want it. You get to choose. They have good aptitudes for most things, great in some cases. They can wear any armour and drink potions. They have normal HP and MP and decent stats. They can regain a ton of HP every time they stab an enemy with blood. You don't have to actually be a stabber to take advantage of this - you can e.g. just cast mephitic cloud frequently as you fight, to stay near full HP.

(1) full, alive
There is no reason to play alive vampire.
It is sure that alive vampire have a boost to regen, but it's very very small.

Wrong! Alive vampires regen very fast. They have the equivalent of the regen 1 mutation. If you have 59 or fewer max HP, they regenerate more than twice as fast as normal. If you have 15 HP they regenerate 4x as fast as normal. You should try to become alive ASAP in the early game, until you hit XL 3 and should drop down to satiated to use batform (unless you're transmuting).

Also, alive or full vampires can use transmutations.

you should not select alive vampire. Should select small races or VS.

This reasoning is fundamentally flawed. Some races are easier than others. Vampire is not especially easy, but also not especially hard. You play it not because it's the easiest race, but because it plays somewhat differently from other races. Same reason you play naga, mummy, octopode, human, or basically any race.

(2) Near Bloodless
You have rN+++, but regenerate slowly.

They also have rC++, rPois, no spell hunger, a major stealth boost, rRot, and batform.

(3) Bloodless

I would recommend not being bloodless.


Now, it's true that vampires do have trouble in extended due to two main factors:

• Vulnerability both to torment and to dispel undead. IMO the solution to this one is to give rTorm to thirsty or lower vamps, and resistance to dispel undead to full or higher.
• Shortage of blood. IMO the solution to this one is to give starting vampires a magic cup of blood which they can drink from as much as they want. Managing vampire blood states is interesting - harvesting blood from corpses is not, especially when there aren't enough corpses.

[Sandman25]

I don't feel like Vp are fun in Spider.

[radinms]

Thank you for your reply, archaeo and Berder.

Of course, i realize the strong part of vampire, especially stab heal.
in normal 3 runes game, VpEn is a op combo. Because even with no god, easy to win.
(Even with no god, i have completed 3 runes VpEn http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/rad ... 061820.txt )

At least, before getting 2 runes, stab heal is essencial to VpEn.
So i don't like to stay full or alive, because when full or alive, stab heal doesn't exist.
If you want to play vampire as a stabber, there is no reason to play alive vampire except D1-2.
Before extended game, stab heal is more important than regen1(+0.2/turn).

But, in extended game, i don't understand how vampire get all runes and complete game without kiku.
You don't recommend bloodless. In my experience, i agree that bloodless is not good.
Stop regeneration is a big problem.

maybe alive vampire + statue form is a good in extended. (Mummy and ghoul can't cast tmut, so this is strong part of vampire)

[Sandman25]

maybe alive vampire + statue form is a good in extended. (Mummy and ghoul can't cast tmut, so this is strong part of vampire)

Gh and Mu are immune to torment, Gh has claws for UC, these 2 are the best races in extended.

[duvessa]

maybe alive vampire + statue form is a good in extended. (Mummy and ghoul can't cast tmut, so this is strong part of vampire)

Gh and Mu are immune to torment, Gh has claws for UC, these 2 are the best races in extended.

Do extended with a mummy and then say that again. I dare you.

[celem]

Firstly: I didnt take my VpEn into extended, so I've not tested them under these conditions.

Upto 3-runes, as you mention, Vp is awesome, its my fastest win. They are obnoxiously good at a couple of skills that make that stage of the game a cakewalk (Stealth/Hex).
Beyond that I can certainly see how they start to suffer.

Some extended areas have a fair number of drainable foes though. You could stab-heal your way through much of Pan on demonspawn, especially if you actually found a vamp weapon since then even non-fatal stabs result in huge heals and its a trivial swap.

I also would not go fully bloodless. My favorite tactic for the late 3-rune was to sit at near bloodless so that my stacked Regen gear and spell could bring me up to a fairly normal rate of recovery. The only time I was happy entirely bloodless was with multiple Regen gear pieces. It means at anytime you spend 1 turn quaffing blood (to very thirsty or so) and immediately get a recovery spike.

I'm pretty sure I would do extended Vampire without Kiku, infact I know I would. The (blood)sucker has built-in rN, I've done it with only 1 pip available. I've only ever made 1 run where I had deity assisted torment resistance, never used necromut or statform. Torment is really not the big deal people make it out to be. Yes its probably the nastiest trick in the DCSS book, yes it hurts. Stop getting hit by it. A vamp is gonna be stupidly stealthy, you could ghost your way through. My VpEn was Ash and I ascended him because he was fastest to 3 and he was streaking. I'd have done 15 with Ash in a heartbeat otherwise.

Would extended Vampire be difficult and painful? Probably, some combos just are, doesnt mean im gonna change my god-plan. Honestly im more worried by Dispel Undead, since I rarely play the dead. I know all the tormentors, I got no clue who Dispels.

[Pereza0]

Vp is just the worst species in the game, period. It's not underpowered/overpowered or anything like that, it's just fiddly as heck and requires understanding a miserable table of bonuses and maluses at different hunger states to play even semi-optimally. I don't know how you fix any of this, and I strongly suspect that it would be easier to start from scratch than try to make Vp into something fun and playable.

Completely agree. I feel they just have too many moving parts that don't interact with each other as well as they should.

I feel that some of their mechanics (activable alternate form, circumstantial regeneration speed, different nutrition system, shifting between undead and alive) could easily work in separate species. Having all of them together makes them confusing and flimsy, but in species that only had one or a couple of them (and with the species built around the gimmick in a more thoughtful way) they could work a lot better.

They are still fun as they stand though, just a bit weird

[Sandman25]

Do extended with a mummy and then say that again. I dare you.

Is 8 runes with Chei enough? viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11971&p=168369i#p168369

Mu is easy in extended

[Sar]

Abyss is awful as Mu

Mu is easy in extended

Um.

[Sandman25]

Abyss is awful as Mu

Mu is easy in extended

Um.

Expected comment
I was with Chei, Abyss has only one rune and I was playing badly (was too afraid to use restore abilities).

[bel]

OP seems illogical. It says Vp is not good for extended, then lists all the reasons why various Vp hunger statuses are worse than some other race. The point of having the different hunger statuses is that you have access to them all on one species, not that some (different in each case) species is better than each of them. You can't switch from Mummy to Troll in a single game like you can with Vampire hunger status.

Vp is very strong for 3-rune game. There is nothing wrong with some species having a stronger earlier game and a harder late game. Also, I don't see anything wrong with Kiku making Vp much more tolerable. Nothing wrong with certain races synergizing with certain gods better.

[bel]

Vp is just the worst species in the game, period. It's not underpowered/overpowered or anything like that, it's just fiddly as heck and requires understanding a miserable table of bonuses and maluses at different hunger states to play even semi-optimally. I don't know how you fix any of this, and I strongly suspect that it would be easier to start from scratch than try to make Vp into something fun and playable.

I do not agree with this at all. For instance, I played VpEn of Kiku (3 runes) and there was almost no "fiddling" required. I stayed at roughly Thirsty/Very Thirsty/Near Bloodless almost all game to stab better and get resistances. With SInv, rPois, rC+, rN++ etc. there was very little gear swapping to do, so it was even less "fiddly" than my other characters. (This was a speedrun, so I went to satiated/full when I wanted faster regen, that's about it.)

[Sar]

Kiku means you have access to essentially unlimited blood supply.

[bel]

Kiku means you have access to essentially unlimited blood supply.

(assuming this is directed to me) To clarify, I have played VpEn of Ash as well, and not found them fiddly either. In fact, the multiple resistances when thirsty allowed me to curse jewellery/gear more freely.

[Sar]

Yes, that was directed at you, sorry if that wasn't clear. Anyway, I played some Vp and their food system seemed pretty complex. I think they might be attractive to people who like such complex things though, so I'm not sure axing that or simplifying to the point of irrelevance is a great idea. Steps had already be taken in the direction of later, though.

[bcadren]

Since this is in the advice forum; here are my thoughts on Vampires in extended:
You can treat Vampires as three separate races with their own play-styles. I'll give separate advice for each style:

1. The Alive Vampire - Staying as full as possible to give you Regen III most the time, which is second only to Troll Regen. Closest you can be to a troll without having their disadvantages, you even have the voracious appetite. Recommended Gods are Kiku and Jiyva, as they are the only two that will keep your nutrition full in more corpseless areas. Full life means strong as Transmuter (Blade Hands at +1 UC is amazing) and generally resilient in melee and still great in stealth if chosen (you have no boost, but still have a +5 apt). You still are average or above in more spellschools so backing up with Charms and/or Hexes will bring full strength. Kiku follower will (of course) wish to also augment with Simulacra. Choosing other gods is still possible, but you may need to use the bottle blood ability extensively which may be tedious.
2. The Bloodless Vampire - You don't drink in order to keep the rPois (Immune), rC++ and rTorm. As you choose not to drink, you'll need an alternate source of healing. (Makhleb or Trog being most advisable). Bloodless also can use spells rapidly like a mummy, while putting up with only -a few- of their apts. being as bad as mummy and most being significantly better. It can be reasonable to instead take a magic god (Kiku, Sif, Vehu) and use the endless casting to your benefit, while have to rely on a device (or small amounts of feeding) to heal; but this ends up promoting very cautious summoner/blaster play as, though very resistant to many things, you cannot heal easily. [With Sif, you can use food to get enough regen to heal, then spam channeling to drain yourself of blood if you need the bloodlessness for rTorm in a hurry.] Mostly, this playstyle is only recommended when you NEED rTorm rRot badly (Tomb being the most no brainer; other areas being debatable). If you take this playstyle, it's still reasonable to stay full when you don't NEED the bonuses of Bloodlessness.
3. Fluctuating - You allow your blood level to fluctuate. This is where more people default without planning to stick to one side or the other. It gives you more freedom of god choice (unlike playing a transmuter you don't HAVE to be alive), but your use of the bonuses is more confusing. If you're going this way, settle on a target hunger levels (Thirsty: Bat Form, rC+, rPois, rN++, Slow Healing I) is probably the most reasonable apart from ALIVE or BLOODLESS. And, pick a god with a considerable invocation power or boost to your playstyle (Dithmenos, Lugonu, Ashenzari, etc.)

[radinms]

Switching Bloodless ↔︎ Alive in one turn is not possible,especially end game. This is my point.

And, Alive vampire is not a troll.
You only have regen1. Troll has regen2, and great hp pool and can throw large rocks.

And, Bloodless vampire is not a mummy.
Mummy regenerate normally.

[bel]

Switching Bloodless ↔︎ Alive in one turn is not possible,especially end game. This is my point.

And, Alive vampire is not a troll.
You only have regen1. Troll has regen2, and great hp pool and can throw large rocks.

And, Bloodless vampire is not a mummy.
Mummy regenerate normally.

You missed my point. Of course there is some species A which is better than Vp at any satiation level 1 and some species B which is better than Vp at satiation level 2. But you cannot switch from species A to species B in the middle of a game.

I also do not see why you want to go from bloodless to alive in one turn. Do you desperately want higher regen in the middle of a fight? I can't imagine wanting higher regen so badly that I can't spare a few turns to adjust my satiation level.

[radinms]

If I will go to Hell, my plan is that:
-enough stack of !blood
-stay near bloodless or bloodless for torment resistance
-after combat, drink !blood to switch to full or alive for healing

Oh, but, while i'm resting, new tormentor will be spawned!
I'm alive...huge dmg...oh no!

[celem]

Well your mistake was drinking blood to full or alive. As I mentioned up thread, vampires heal even at near bloodless, its just slow. Help it along.

One potion of blood is just about right for me, it trips you bloodless to about very thirsty, at which point yes you lost rTorm, but you still have decent rN.

You dont have to come all the way back to alive, not sure I ever did that.

If you are worried that you wont have time to heal up at the slower rate while in Hell, and new spawns will keep arriving... Well, everyone has that problem, you shouldnt be resting much in the Hells. In other places you just pull back to explored territory a bit, quaff a blood and cast Regen (which I must say I'd always take on a Vp).

[tabstorm]

Can vampires just be made full undead already? This blood-level-fiddling is pretty annoying for a Hypothetical Optimal Player and they're already weak to begin with. Right now they have all the drawbacks of undead and getting any of the benefits comes with even further drawbacks.

[Berder]

You don't like vampires, fine, stay away from them. Other people like them.

[Arrhythmia]

Now, I'm not trying to imply anything here, but I will say that the Noted Crawl Pedophile LoliLover really liked vampires. Just a little thing to keep in mind.

[Berder]

I bet he drank water, breathed air, and ate food too.

[Arrhythmia]

I bet he drank water, breathed air, and ate food too.

I'm not implying anything! All I'm saying is that every single crawl pedophile likes vampires.

[Berder]

Yeah and every single crawl pedophile drank water, breathed air, and ate food too.

[Arrhythmia]

Well, 100% of crawl players like that, so it seems normal. On the other hand, not every crawl player likes vampires. Every crawl player who likes fucking children, though

[mps]

You seem to have gotten edgier in recent days, Arrhythmia...

e: Also, I'm sure I don't have to remind you that given the shadowy nature of internet pedophilia, we can hardly be sure your numbers are correct. What might be true is that all known crawl pedophiles are vampire fans. I would say, though, that in my experience, the real weirdos on the internet are the ones who like to name themselves after or roleplay as vampires. Just one data point.

[duvessa]

I bet he drank water, breathed air, and ate food too.

I'm not implying anything! All I'm saying is that every single crawl pedophile likes vampires.

hey hey hey hey hey. he's an ephebophile

[savageorange]

I bet he drank water, breathed air, and ate food too.

I'm not implying anything! All I'm saying is that every single crawl pedophile likes vampires.

What about those that aren't single? Do they like vampires too?

[Arrhythmia]

I bet he drank water, breathed air, and ate food too.

I'm not implying anything! All I'm saying is that every single crawl pedophile likes vampires.

hey hey hey hey hey. he's an ephebophile

danish court of law disagrees!

[Sar]

Noted Crawl Pedophile LoliLover

so he really likes playing trunk? dang I must be a Crawl pedo too then

ephebophile

too old

[partial]

I love Vp, they're pretty straightforward imo

[radinms]

No. Very Complex.

[Lyrick]

Playing a vampire not of Mak or Kiku in Hell feels just about impossible.

I had a stack of blood, wand of heal wounds, and a comfortable stack of recharge scrolls, and managed to dive through one and a half hells.

If we could get some living dudes in hell it would make things a lot better. Random fountains of blood that you can drink from, please?