Guide to Safe Crawling


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

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Zot Zealot

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Post Sunday, 10th May 2015, 18:46

dirtywick wrote:I would assume a vast majority of Trog wins are from a Be

Sar wrote:Yes the vast majority of Trog wins are probably Berserkers

Let's have a look at the online statistics: !lg * win god=Trog s=class

Sequell wrote:3885 games for * (win god=Trog): 2957x Berserker, 174x Fighter, 119x Hunter, 104x Assassin, 101x Wanderer, 94x Gladiator, 51x Artificer, 40x Arcane Marksman, 40x Monk, 24x Warper, 21x Skald, 19x Summoner, 19x Chaos Knight, 18x Priest, 17x Enchanter, 13x Ice Elementalist, 11x Healer, 10x Conjurer, 9x Air Elementalist, 8x Stalker, 7x Transmuter, 7x Earth Elementalist, 5x Necromancer, 5x Wizard, 3xFire Elementalist, 2x Death Knight, 2x Venom Mage, 2x Thief, Reaver, Paladin, Jester

!lg * win god=Trog s=class%

Sequell wrote:3885 games for * (win god=Trog): 2957x Berserker (76.11%), 174x Fighter (4.48%), 119x Hunter (3.06%), 104x Assassin (2.68%), 101x Wanderer (2.60%), 94x Gladiator (2.42%)...

More than 75% Trog wins have started as berserker, I thought it would have been even more.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 10th May 2015, 19:01

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Doesnt wrote:
Berder wrote:
  • Don't wield a weapon if you can't uncurse it and it would end your game if it is cursed. This doesn't apply to branded weapons wielded by a monster, which are never cursed. "Short blade of venom" - safe. "Enchanted short blade" - not safe.


This isn't true! I've found cursed branded weapons in the past, although I think it's less likely than with a generically "glowing" weapon. It's still fairly safe to wield a short blade of venom if you're not too dependent on your weapon slot though, since it's a nice earlygame weapon.

Was it an artifact? Or was it a weapon you picked up from the floor rather than from an enemy? Or maybe was it from a wight? (Wights carry cursed weapons often - not sure if that means they are an exception in respect to this question).

Otherwise I don't think I've ever had that happen to me. From my experience, every branded weapon that was identified as such from an enemy wielding it (ie 0.16+) was uncursed.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 10th May 2015, 19:08

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

MrRokkomies wrote:Solution to luring would be more advanced monster AI. Orb Spiders are a good example, since they try to maintain distance.

Make monsters try to gang up on you. If they spot you and are alone, they start looking for other monsters to gang up and come after you. :P You no longer want to let that goblin run off and return with a Hill Giant.


Orb spiders are already the most annoying monsters in the game by far, it would really suck if more monsters had AI like that.
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mps

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Post Sunday, 10th May 2015, 19:19

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

re: pollen golem's inventory management stuff... You're deeply confused about the value of identification scrolls. ID scrolls are the most common type of consumable. They're even more common than fruit! By the time you're down to two unknown potions remaining, one of them poison and the other experience, it no longer matters how you spend your ID scrolls. You should start read ID'ing your scrolls around d:4 or 5, reading the largest stacks first to find ID. When you find ID, you should identify as many potions as you can. If you have a surplus of ID, it's good to ID some scrolls too. Otherwise, you need to read ID enough to know what tele and/or blink are around the same stage of the game. Walking around mid-lair with stacks of unID'd !hw, !curing, and ?blinking and 15 ID scrolls is a recipe for an unnecessary death. (I give this example because I actually saw this dude doing exactly this on cszo.) Advice on how to read ID your stuff is available elsewhere in the forum.

Inventory management is also something you can find advice on elsewhere in the forum. It's not complicated stuff because you have a ton of slots, not that many items are genuinely worth carrying for a typical character, you can ctrl-f anything you've seen, and when you drop things you can usually go back and get them later (essentially always in a typical 3 rune game). The point of stash is to conveniently store things you know you're going to use later. It's not really necessary and outside of things you know you'll want later, it doesn't really matter whether you drop things in stash or out of stash.
Dungeon Crawling Advice tl;dr: Protect ya neck.

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Airwolf, Berder

Spider Stomper

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Post Sunday, 10th May 2015, 19:44

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Berder wrote:
Doesnt wrote:
Berder wrote:
  • Don't wield a weapon if you can't uncurse it and it would end your game if it is cursed. This doesn't apply to branded weapons wielded by a monster, which are never cursed. "Short blade of venom" - safe. "Enchanted short blade" - not safe.


This isn't true! I've found cursed branded weapons in the past, although I think it's less likely than with a generically "glowing" weapon. It's still fairly safe to wield a short blade of venom if you're not too dependent on your weapon slot though, since it's a nice earlygame weapon.

Was it an artifact? Or was it a weapon you picked up from the floor rather than from an enemy? Or maybe was it from a wight? (Wights carry cursed weapons often - not sure if that means they are an exception in respect to this question).

Otherwise I don't think I've ever had that happen to me. From my experience, every branded weapon that was identified as such from an enemy wielding it (ie 0.16+) was uncursed.


It was indeed from a wight, but it was just a generic weapon of freezing, not an artifact. Went digging into the source, and both wights and Norris (for some reason) have a 1/3 chance of having their weapon cursed after it's created. A handful of other creatures (Sonja, satyrs, and naga sharpshooters) are guaranteed to get uncursed weapons. Couldn't find the usual item generation to be certain, but otherwise it looks like you're probably right.

Edit: found the relevant code for creating bad items. It seems that regular cursed items with negative enchantments and items randomly getting a brand are indeed mutually exclusive under normal circumstances, but can be forced by arguments to item gen (for vaults probably).

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Sar

bel

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Post Monday, 11th May 2015, 07:12

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Berder wrote:
Doesnt wrote:
Berder wrote:
  • Don't wield a weapon if you can't uncurse it and it would end your game if it is cursed. This doesn't apply to branded weapons wielded by a monster, which are never cursed. "Short blade of venom" - safe. "Enchanted short blade" - not safe.


This isn't true! I've found cursed branded weapons in the past, although I think it's less likely than with a generically "glowing" weapon. It's still fairly safe to wield a short blade of venom if you're not too dependent on your weapon slot though, since it's a nice earlygame weapon.

Was it an artifact? Or was it a weapon you picked up from the floor rather than from an enemy? Or maybe was it from a wight? (Wights carry cursed weapons often - not sure if that means they are an exception in respect to this question).

Otherwise I don't think I've ever had that happen to me. From my experience, every branded weapon that was identified as such from an enemy wielding it (ie 0.16+) was uncursed.

This is not correct. Branded weapons are rarely cursed, but they can be. Ah, just saw, the above comment. The item gen mechanic is strange to say the least.

Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 11th May 2015, 09:08

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

dirtywick wrote:I usually don't make a stash. There's no carry weight limit or item destruction and you can Ctrl-f things you only maybe need later.


I still tend to do a Lair1 stash, because I do not want to travel to lair branches or dive deeper in to them to recover one item. Later on I do like to carry stuff to the vaults entrance from vaults levels and crypt/tomb.

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 11th May 2015, 16:17

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Yeah I've started stashing on branch entrances. I try and make sure anything from lair/its branches or orc/elf ends up back on the D floor with the entrance. I dont move much in this fashion. Evocables I havent skilled for but plan to, books I might want depending on future offerings and so on.

Orb Spiders do indeed suck. The AI that makes them back up all the time works fine for that specific monster with its 1 niche attack. Actually makes them a threat if you dont have a fair ranged option. But spreading it to other monsters is just frustrating, I already dislike chasing blink-spammers, red devils and the like. They probably do their job of sucking unwary players into danger though, I dont much mind what we've got but dont much fancy the rest of the monster-base picking up pointers.

We dont want to break luring entirely. You need to be able to split up what arrives if its not something you can handle. The RNG wont pitch softballs everytime and while go around is usually great advice, once in while you have to get past to progress.
Online Wins: MiFi, GrFi, TrMo, HOGl, SpEn, {DEWz, DDNe}, {OgBe, CeHu}, FoFi, VSFi, MfGl, {HaGl, VpEn, HESk}, KoAs, DsFi, TeMo
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 17:02

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

What do you do if the dice frown upon you and a popcorn monster that "looks easy" chews through most of your health while you've barely scratched it? Is this a strictly What to consider during an emergency situation?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 17:09

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Pollen_Golem wrote:What do you do if the dice frown upon you and a popcorn monster that "looks easy" chews through most of your health while you've barely scratched it? Is this a strictly What to consider during an emergency situation?


Optimal play does not look like this. Example: you are fighting a single goblin. You let it come adjacent to you, you attack it (and miss), it hits you, you retreat and wait your HP to be back to 100%, only then you try to attack it again. If you miss again and the goblin hits you again, you retreat and wait for HP regen again. It means the situation described by you (goblin is almost healthy and you have below 50% HP) is impossible: you should be running around pillar instead of exchanging attacks long time ago.

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Berder

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Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 18:49

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Sandman25 wrote:
Pollen_Golem wrote:What do you do if the dice frown upon you and a popcorn monster that "looks easy" chews through most of your health while you've barely scratched it? Is this a strictly What to consider during an emergency situation?


Optimal play does not look like this. Example: you are fighting a single goblin. You let it come adjacent to you, you attack it (and miss), it hits you, you retreat and wait your HP to be back to 100%, only then you try to attack it again. If you miss again and the goblin hits you again, you retreat and wait for HP regen again. It means the situation described by you (goblin is almost healthy and you have below 50% HP) is impossible: you should be running around pillar instead of exchanging attacks long time ago.

This, but if the monster is fast such as a giant gecko or jackal, yes it is an emergency.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

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Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 18:57

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Berder wrote:This, but if the monster is fast such as a giant gecko or jackal, yes it is an emergency.


True, I forgot about jackals. As caster I usually run away waiting for MP, as melee character it looks like there is no choice and player should melee and hope for the best. At least it will be fast and not boring/repetitive ;)
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Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 21:38

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

But I mean, you can be a XL15 character who has effortlessly slaughtered dozens of iguanas, for example. Then you're fighting an iguana, 1 on 1, and it keeps damaging you while you keep missing it. So, basically use the same tactics as on D:1?

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 22:28

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Pollen_Golem wrote:But I mean, you can be a XL15 character who has effortlessly slaughtered dozens of iguanas, for example. Then you're fighting an iguana, 1 on 1, and it keeps damaging you while you keep missing it. So, basically use the same tactics as on D:1?

At xl15 an iguana would virtually never pose a threat. But if you are somehow getting low on hp vs an iguana at xl15, then yeah, you have to take it seriously and use some consumable or ability.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 22:45

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

It happens sometimes with high EV low HP species like Ko. You kill 10 Ettins without taking much damage and then suddenly why you are below 50%HP when 11th Ettin hits you with both attacks.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 15th May 2015, 13:43

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Great post. I'd add the strategic advice (viewtopic.php?p=219896#p219896) to the first post, so that it won't get lost in the middle of the other comments.

Have you considered writing this on the wiki in order to get more visibility?
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 15th May 2015, 16:33

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

temple stash 4 lyfe
I love pitsprint and pitsprint culture.
dpeg wrote:The only good player is a dead player.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 15th May 2015, 17:08

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

partial wrote:temple stash 4 lyfe

But why? What sort of treasures have you accumulated before lair that you have to stash? Do you ever actually go back to this stash and pick this stuff up?

My 'stash' is usually me dumping amnesia scrolls and books on lair 1, then throughout lair as I pick them up. The reason I do this is because one time a slime ate a pile of books I dropped on the floor in the dungeon, and that sucked. But I don't accumulate enough stuff to do this usually until I'm at lair.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 15th May 2015, 17:15

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

dowan wrote:The reason I do this is because one time a slime ate a pile of books I dropped on the floor in the dungeon, and that sucked. But I don't accumulate enough stuff to do this usually until I'm at lair.


I understand it can be interesting to save items you see from jellies but why do jellies still eat items dropped by player??? (assuming you are not with Jiyva of course)

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all before, dowan, duvessa, rockygargoyle, Sprucery

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 15th May 2015, 18:09

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

I was wondering the same thing honestly. It seems like one of those low hanging tedious fruit, like a really boring apple dangling from a tree.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Monday, 18th May 2015, 13:40

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

dowan wrote:
partial wrote:temple stash 4 lyfe

But why? What sort of treasures have you accumulated before lair that you have to stash? Do you ever actually go back to this stash and pick this stuff up?

My 'stash' is usually me dumping amnesia scrolls and books on lair 1, then throughout lair as I pick them up. The reason I do this is because one time a slime ate a pile of books I dropped on the floor in the dungeon, and that sucked. But I don't accumulate enough stuff to do this usually until I'm at lair.

scrolls and books mostly

it's probably not optimal but i like keeping stuff there
I love pitsprint and pitsprint culture.
dpeg wrote:The only good player is a dead player.
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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 18th May 2015, 13:46

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Sandman25 wrote:I understand it can be interesting to save items you see from jellies but why do jellies still eat items dropped by player??? (assuming you are not with Jiyva of course)

They don't. ;)
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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and into, Berder, PAnacea, Sprucery

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 18th May 2015, 14:46

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Oh thank goodness. Die item destruction, die stashing, die! TABTABTAB!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 18th May 2015, 14:51

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

njvack wrote:They don't. ;)

Yes, I was pleasantly surprised. Thanks, devs!
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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 19:50

Re: Guide to Safe Crawling

Slight necro + quote editing=


At 50 percent hp, you are dead. Go quit the character and burn your computer, because you can never recover from this loss.
Lord of Lignification, we bow down to you.

...why aren't you bowing? Stop reading this and bow.
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