0.16 Zigs. Some questions.


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 65

Joined: Monday, 28th May 2012, 06:29

Post Wednesday, 15th April 2015, 17:11

0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Being inspired by the information on Zig reworking I gave a try to it. The third DEFE finally got there and now I have a couple of questions.
1. Is there a layout when the whole floor is full of monsters? Or when you start being completely surrounded a teleport should move you to a relatively safer place?
2. When a DEFE was shot by a warmonger with a Sap magic spell, which escape options are available? I had this experience once, so I've used the "duck and cover" tactics. It worked quite nice because it was quite a low level Zig so some dozens of turns with no casts (after killing the pesky warmonger) saved me.
3. Btw, do evocations (like phantom mirror) affect the length of sap effect?
4. Starting surrounded by monsters of Crypt layout (with several silent spectres) you are silenced in the very beginning. The only viable option I see is to try to shot down those spectres by a rod/wand. Which one is the best option? My guess is a rod of ignition by now, but maybe there is a better option?

The character is DEFE of Vehu, 50+ Int, 40 AC, around 35 EV, around 15 DEX and STR, most of the skills mastered, any spell available for learning. Current spell set includes FS, Glaciate, Delayed FB+FB (for single silent spectres and in case of starting among mana drainers), Iron Shot, IOOD (for Pan mostly) and some support spells including CBlink, Smn Butterflies, Blink, Haste, RMsl and so on. I enter each level after DF+RMsl+Necromut+Haste+maximize mana via CBoE. Maybe I miss some escape options?

Halls Hopper

Posts: 76

Joined: Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 15:52

Post Wednesday, 15th April 2015, 17:59

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

I just did my first two Zigs over the last 2 days so I can answer some of these:

1. Every floor (of the 45 floors I did) had all monsters grouped on the other side by the treasure trove. On the early floors, the room is small enough that you'll be right near them, but those floors are also super easy so you'll be fine. It also looks like the monsters may not even be spawned until you or a summons gets close enough to their location (probably to prevent some exploit), when means that you might take a step and have 2-3 squares deep of monsters on the edge of your vision.
2. I haven't experienced Sap Magic, but there are plenty of MP drainers in there and something gave me a -Wiz debuff. In general, have a plan for a 0 mana fight. For me, it's evoking 2-3 items which create summons.
3. I'd doubt evocables count as casting, but can't say for sure.
4. In my experience, by the time Silent Spectres spawn, you're in a large room and they start out far enough away that you won't be ambushed by it. Because of their huge silent aura, you can triangulate their position and possibly hit them with a Fire Storm from outside of their aura's range. At least I was able to do that with Singularity.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 65

Joined: Monday, 28th May 2012, 06:29

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 04:56

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

I'm making my 5th Zig so far. Have a look on how it starts.

mummies.png
Zig5Floor24 - Mummies everywhere
mummies.png (129.56 KiB) Viewed 6985 times
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1509

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Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 05:32

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

I have no idea if this would work, but can you start a tornado and then take stairs? If so it might help for silent spectres.
Won all race/bg, unwon (online): Nem* Hep Uka
Favourites: 15-rune Trog, OgNe/OgIE/OgSu (usually Ash), Ds, Ru, SpEn, Ce of Chei, Qaz

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 06:03

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

I have written a guide to the mega-zig: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Mega-Zig

1. Yes, if you are surrounded by enemies at the start then that means the floor is packed. If you want to teleport to a safer area, you first have to kill some stuff nearby you. Enemies will move forward, creating a space near the stairs that you can teleport to. This is trickier in mummy levels because they summon stuff to fill the gaps you create.
2. My guide has a section on Sap Magic under "Tactics in Pan Levels."
Berder wrote:A pandemonium level can be identified by the presence of demonspawn, with plenty of fiends and other pandemonium denizens. The main danger here is that demonspawn warmongers will sap your magic, leaving your attack capacity greatly diminished. To prevent this, identify and kill warmongers ASAP. Also note that Sap Magic requires an open line of fire, so you're temporarily ok as long as other enemies are in the way.
If you do get sapped, you'll only be able to cast a few spells before the -Wiz becomes excessive. Save it for the most important stuff, like recasting tornado and necromutation, and maybe darkness. You can use disc of storms in between tornado/necromut. Your goal is to survive until the Sap wears off. Fog can help, and so can retreating to a safer area, if possible.
If all else fails, you can drop out of lichform and quaff cancellation, which will remove the Sap and -Wiz. However, given the number of enemies that cast torment in Pan levels, this might be a mistake. Also, you get hardly any potions of cancellation in zigs so this tactic can't be used too many times.

3. Evocations are not affected by Sap. You can use all the evocables you want.
4. My guide has two sections dealing with silent levels: Equipping for Silence, and Tactics in Silent Levels. Short answer: javelins of penetration are the best way to take down silent spectres, disc of storms is the best way to kill other enemies while silenced, and evocable blink (not the spell blink) is needed to move around quickly in case you get stuck.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

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Halls Hopper

Posts: 76

Joined: Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 15:52

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 14:53

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

I was wondering how exactly the Zigs get harder after the first time through, and I guess that answers my question.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 65

Joined: Monday, 28th May 2012, 06:29

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 18:10

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

A nice guide, thank you!
But I have some questions to it. The first is: why Makhleb? Why not Vehumet? A lot of levels (giants, lair, slime, orcish, elven...) are just a breeze. Being an adept of Makhleb you have to replenish your mana pool. Spending turns on it may bring you in trouble.
The main issue of Makhleb is smiting I suppose. So there is quite an easy way to deal with it. The first turns on the floor should be: Firestorm a small part of a corner; blink to the corner; KILL 'EM ALL around (maybe spending occasional turns on healing with a wand). It works just fine in mummy and holy levels so far. You also may choose between glaciate (hit everything in LOS-1) and FS (hit things on the border of LOS and beyond it).
The only reason for Makhleb I see may be the Crypt monster set.
And I didn't encounter "Hellion island" variant of Zig so far. It may be the second Makhleb stricting layout.

And one more tip for your guide: there is a life-saving option of self-entombing. Have a couple of legendary decks identified with a Tomb card ready.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5333

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 18:14

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Mummy levels will inevitably damage you from death curses. Even if you could fully clear all of the pictured mummies in the above screenshot in one turn, you're going to likely take over 100 damage from the curses alone. Necromutation renders a lot of them ineffective, but correct me if I'm wrong, some death curses will still deal damage. And when you take 50 death curses, you will need passive healing on kills. There's other ways to restore mana, you need the health and you don't have turns to spend getting it back.

My last zig attempt for the tournament didn't prepare necromutation and died on a mummy floor.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1182

Joined: Tuesday, 13th September 2011, 20:34

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 18:49

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Its not just mummy levels, either. Once you get deep into a zig, you are going to be taking a lot of damage from a lot of sources, pretty much every single turn. Firestorm isn't an instant win button. You couldn't hope to keep up with that spamming heal wounds, and if you do futilely burn a turn on such an action, thats a turn where you aren't killing more of the mob.

Ive taken mountainous tank characters who cake-walked thru the rest of the game into zigs, and even with copious use of fog and summons etc to avoid torment/hellfire/etc, I quickly found myself in dire straits. Mahkleb is an absolute must have, as are lvl 9 area spells.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 18:55

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Necromutations disables all death curses except cursing items (unless with Ash) and stat drain (sustain still helps), death curse never hurts player's HP in lichform.

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tasonir

Halls Hopper

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Joined: Monday, 28th May 2012, 06:29

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 21:04

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

tasonir wrote:Mummy levels will inevitably damage you from death curses. Even if you could fully clear all of the pictured mummies in the above screenshot in one turn, you're going to likely take over 100 damage from the curses alone. Necromutation renders a lot of them ineffective, but correct me if I'm wrong, some death curses will still deal damage. And when you take 50 death curses, you will need passive healing on kills. There's other ways to restore mana, you need the health and you don't have turns to spend getting it back.

My last zig attempt for the tournament didn't prepare necromutation and died on a mummy floor.

You are wrong. Being necromutated leaves only statdrain (which occurs even with SustAb) and summoned reapers, soul eaters and such.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 65

Joined: Monday, 28th May 2012, 06:29

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 21:14

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

daggaz wrote:Once you get deep into a zig, you are going to be taking a lot of damage from a lot of sources, pretty much every single turn. Firestorm isn't an instant win button. You couldn't hope to keep up with that spamming heal wounds, and if you do futilely burn a turn on such an action, thats a turn where you aren't killing more of the mob.

Ive taken mountainous tank characters who cake-walked thru the rest of the game into zigs, and even with copious use of fog and summons etc to avoid torment/hellfire/etc, I quickly found myself in dire straits. Mahkleb is an absolute must have, as are lvl 9 area spells.

Well, you're wrong. Given that layout is Lair, Firestorm + Vehumet (or Glaciate + Vehumet, doesn't matter) is actually an instant win button. You'll never get hurt if you are prepared. Even on a fully packed level.

More, you can't avoid torment by summons. More, you don't need any summons at all since Fire Storm is a very strong summon itself. Maybe the best summon available =)

More, it seems to me that you've never mastered Zig. So... try to win it with any religion at first.

Makhleb or Vehumet... What will you do with Makhleb on mummy floor when your CBoE evocation drains your mana away?

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 16th April 2015, 23:54

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Owen wrote:What will you do with Makhleb on mummy floor when your CBoE evocation drains your mana away?

Use the staff of wucad mu. If you don't have the staff of wucad mu, use a staff of energy until you have about 25% of your max MP (tends to be like 10 MP), and then you can use CBOE again.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
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mps

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Post Friday, 17th April 2015, 00:01

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

If you watch people play megazigs online, Makhleb is the standard. The argument that worst case incoming damage gets to be too much without Makhleb healing is pretty well backed by experience.
Dungeon Crawling Advice tl;dr: Protect ya neck.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 17th April 2015, 01:09

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Berder wrote:
Owen wrote:What will you do with Makhleb on mummy floor when your CBoE evocation drains your mana away?

Use the staff of wucad mu. If you don't have the staff of wucad mu, use a staff of energy until you have about 25% of your max MP (tends to be like 10 MP), and then you can use CBOE again.


The amount depends on Evocations (http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crystal_ball), with Evo 27 you need only 22% to be safe.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1694

Joined: Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 20:34

Post Friday, 17th April 2015, 14:05

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Owen wrote:
daggaz wrote:Once you get deep into a zig, you are going to be taking a lot of damage from a lot of sources, pretty much every single turn. Firestorm isn't an instant win button. You couldn't hope to keep up with that spamming heal wounds, and if you do futilely burn a turn on such an action, thats a turn where you aren't killing more of the mob.

Ive taken mountainous tank characters who cake-walked thru the rest of the game into zigs, and even with copious use of fog and summons etc to avoid torment/hellfire/etc, I quickly found myself in dire straits. Mahkleb is an absolute must have, as are lvl 9 area spells.

Well, you're wrong. Given that layout is Lair, Firestorm + Vehumet (or Glaciate + Vehumet, doesn't matter) is actually an instant win button. You'll never get hurt if you are prepared. Even on a fully packed level.

More, you can't avoid torment by summons. More, you don't need any summons at all since Fire Storm is a very strong summon itself. Maybe the best summon available =)



I don't understand what you're talking about here. Firestorm doesn't kill everything on screen in 1 turn, if you cast firestorm in that picture surrounded by mummies and such, you would most definitely take damage the next turn. Please explain how you "Never get hurt if you're prepared" in that situation

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5333

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 17th April 2015, 23:22

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Sandman25 wrote:Necromutations disables all death curses except cursing items (unless with Ash) and stat drain (sustain still helps), death curse never hurts player's HP in lichform.

Had I remembered this ahead of time I probably would have fully cleared that zig instead of dying on zig:26. Shows how rarely I run zigs below floor 15 or so (almost never).

Halls Hopper

Posts: 65

Joined: Monday, 28th May 2012, 06:29

Post Thursday, 23rd April 2015, 08:06

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

dowan wrote:
Owen wrote: Given that layout is Lair, Firestorm + Vehumet (or Glaciate + Vehumet, doesn't matter) is actually an instant win button. You'll never get hurt if you are prepared. Even on a fully packed level.

I don't understand what you're talking about here. Firestorm doesn't kill everything on screen in 1 turn, if you cast firestorm in that picture surrounded by mummies and such, you would most definitely take damage the next turn. Please explain how you "Never get hurt if you're prepared" in that situation

With a given layout, remember.
------------
On a mummy floor I'm casting FS in the corner, blink/teleport there, so my LOS becomes a quarter of usual and smites become manageable. I have some Regen sources so actually I didn't have to worry much about smites with Vehu. Stat loss (even with SustAb) on a 15+ totally packed mummy level is a real disaster, I had an unlucky streak of mummy floors that mostly burnt out my RestAb stock.

But.
Thank you all, I've swapped Vehu for Makhleb. It is more complicated on mana management but it seems to be a really good idea. On easy boring levels like orc/coc/lair I just FS towards the center, blink there, cast tornado twice clearing the whole level in a second. With no mana management at all =)
Silent levels went quite easy too with javelins of penetration. I didn't encounter a fully packed Pan Lord floor yet and a fully packed mummy level yet. Hope it's manageable too.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 65

Joined: Monday, 28th May 2012, 06:29

Post Thursday, 23rd April 2015, 08:32

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

... and just to mention.
Glaciate is able to kill mostly everything (or entirely everything) on the screen in 2 casts after entering a Zig level. You are hasted so most of monsters in LOS will not act at all.

> The argument that worst case incoming damage gets to be too much without Makhleb healing is pretty well backed by experience.

Yes, I've got it. You are right.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 191

Joined: Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 00:14

Location: Germany

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 12:30

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

This is a Gargoyle of Zin with 18 completed ziggurats.

(Vitalisation is on for this dump:)

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.1-30-g34a7ffa (webtiles) character file.

Nebukadnezar the Bringer of Law (GrFi)         Turns: 466366, Time: 5, 13:53:43

Health: 258/258    AC: 56    Str: 44    XL:     27
Magic:  65/65      EV: 43    Int: 46    God:    Zin [******]
Gold:   666        SH: 39    Dex: 30    Spells: 13 memorised, 11 levels left

rFire  + + +     SeeInvis +     E - +8 eveningstar "Clompuip" {freeze, MP+9 Int+3 Dex+4 Stlth-}
rCold  + + +     Clarity  +     h - +7 ring mail of the Four Ships {rC+ MR+ rCorr Int+4 Dex-2}
rNeg   + + +     SustAb   .     X - +7 large shield of the Eleven Places {rF+ Regen+}
rPois  ∞         Gourm    .     (helmet unavailable)
rElec  +         Spirit   .     n - +0 cloak of the Fiend {MP+9 Str+3 Dex+3}
rCorr  +         Warding  +     k - +2 pair of fencer's gloves {EV+3 Dex+6 Slay+2}
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (boots unavailable)
MR     +++++                    U - macabre finger necklace {Ward rN+}
Stlth  +++++++++.               T - ring of Vehumet's Vengeance {Wiz rN+ Str+4 Dex-4 Slay+3 SInv}
                                I - ring "Jeezxi" {Wiz Int+6}
                                y - ring of the Mage {Wiz MR++ Int+3}

@: vitalised, flying, deflect missiles, almost entirely resistant to hostile
enchantments, incredibly stealthy
A: able to fly continuously, big wings, claws 2, fangs 1, hooves 3, horns 3,
iridescent scales 2, thin metallic scales 1, camouflage 1, see invisible, agile
2, blink 1, clarity, clever 2, cold resistance 1, fire resistance 3, high mp 3,
magic resistance 3, negative energy resistance 1, sense surroundings 1,
regeneration 3, robust 3, shaggy fur 3, electricity resistance, spit poison 3,
strong 2, wild magic 3, unbreathing, evolution 2, petrification resistance, rot
immunity, AC +20
a: Spit Poison, Stop Flying, Blink, Recite, Vitalisation, Imprison, Sanctuary,
Cure All Mutations, Renounce Religion
}: 15/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian,
icy, bone, abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark


You are in the Vestibule of Hell.
You worship Zin.
Zin is exalted by your worship.
You are very full.

You have visited 18 branches of the dungeon, and seen 97 of its levels.
You have visited Pandemonium 28 times, and seen 234 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 23 times.
You have completed 18 ziggurats, and seen 486 of their levels.
You have also visited: Trove and Wizlab.

You have collected 74003 gold pieces.
You have spent 16231 gold pieces at shops.
You have donated 2883 gold pieces to Zin.
You have paid 54223 gold pieces to Gozag.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - the +10 sword of Jihad {holy, *Rage rN+ EV+3 Stlth-}
   (You found it on level 22 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It has been blessed by the Shining One to cause great damage to the undead
   and demons.
   
   It affects your evasion (+3).
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It may make you go berserk in combat.
   It makes you less stealthy.
 E - the +8 eveningstar "Clompuip" (weapon) {freeze, MP+9 Int+3 Dex+4 Stlth-}
   (You found it on level 20 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to half again as much damage against particularly
   susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
   It makes you less stealthy.
 H - the +9 Staff of Wucad Mu {channel}
   (You found it on level 26 of a ziggurat)
Missiles
 G - 198 javelins of penetration (quivered)
Armour
 h - the +7 ring mail of the Four Ships (worn) {rC+ MR+ rCorr Int+4 Dex-2}
   (You found it in Pandemonium)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (-2).
   It protects you from cold.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It protects you from acid and corrosion.
 k - the +2 pair of fencer's gloves (worn) {EV+3 Dex+6 Slay+2}
   (You acquired it in the Vestibule of Hell)   
   
   It affects your evasion (+3).
   It affects your dexterity (+6).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+2).
 n - the +0 cloak of the Fiend (worn) {MP+9 Str+3 Dex+3}
   (You found it on level 20 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
 X - the +7 large shield of the Eleven Places (worn) {rF+ Regen+}
   (You took it off a daeva on level 24 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
Rods
 W - a +9 rod of inaccuracy (17/17)
   (You found it on level 23 of a ziggurat)
Jewellery
 y - the ring of the Mage (on amulet) {Wiz MR++ Int+3}
   (You found it on level 18 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   
   It improves your spell success rate.
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 I - the ring "Jeezxi" (left hand) {Wiz Int+6}
   (You found it on level 25 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   
   It improves your spell success rate.
   It affects your intelligence (+6).
 T - the ring of Vehumet's Vengeance (right hand) {Wiz rN+ Str+4 Dex-4 Slay+3 SInv}
   (You found it on level 26 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   
   It improves your spell success rate.
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (-4).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+3).
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 U - the macabre finger necklace (around neck) {Ward rN+}
   (You found it on level 14 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   
   It may prevent the melee attacks of summoned creatures.
   It protects you from negative energy.
Magical devices
 c - a wand of disintegration (19)
 l - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 m - a wand of teleportation (9)
 q - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 C - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 N - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 S - a wand of heal wounds (4)
 Y - a wand of heal wounds (7)
Scrolls
 g - 131 scrolls of holy word
 r - 125 scrolls of remove curse
 s - 22 scrolls of identify
 x - 144 scrolls of magic mapping
 B - 61 scrolls of fog
 R - 96 scrolls of recharging
Potions
 a - 36 potions of haste
 b - 11 potions of resistance
 e - a potion of heal wounds
 i - 34 potions of agility
 o - 3 potions of cancellation
 t - 15 potions of invisibility
 w - 33 potions of magic
 J - 54 potions of curing
 L - 61 potions of restore abilities
 M - 22 potions of might
 P - 6 potions of berserk rage
 Z - 22 potions of brilliance
Miscellaneous
 j - a crystal ball of energy
 z - a fan of gales
 D - a lamp of fire
 F - a phial of floods
 V - a disc of storms
Comestibles
 f - 37 meat rations


   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 O Level 27 Short Blades
 O Level 27 Long Blades
 O Level 27 Axes
 O Level 27 Maces & Flails
 O Level 27 Polearms
 O Level 27 Staves
 O Level 27 Slings
 O Level 27 Bows
 O Level 27 Crossbows
 O Level 27 Throwing
 O Level 27 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
 O Level 27 Stealth
 O Level 27 Shields
 O Level 27 Unarmed Combat
 O Level 27 Spellcasting
 O Level 27 Conjurations
 O Level 27 Hexes
 O Level 27 Charms
 O Level 27 Summonings
 O Level 27 Necromancy
 O Level 27 Translocations
 O Level 27 Transmutations
 O Level 27 Fire Magic
 O Level 27 Ice Magic
 O Level 27 Air Magic
 O Level 27 Earth Magic
 O Level 27 Poison Magic
 O Level 27 Invocations
 O Level 27 Evocations


You have 11 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ########     1%          2    None
b - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       ##########   1%          6    None
d - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ##########   3%          9    None
e - Haste                 Chrm           ########     1%          6    None
f - Silence               Hex/Air        ##########   1%          5    None
g - Summon Butterflies    Summ           ########     1%          1    None
h - Airstrike             Air            ##########   1%          4    None
i - Tornado               Air            ##########   3%          9    None
j - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
k - Aura of Abjuration    Summ           ##########   1%          6    None
m - Apportation           Tloc           ##########   1%          1    None
n - Glaciate              Conj/Ice       ##########   3%          9    None
o - Singularity           Tloc           ##########   3%          9    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:6            Lair (8/8) D:11
 Shoals (5/5) Lair:6        Snake (5/5) Lair:4        Slime (6/6) Lair:7
    Orc (4/4) D:10            Elf (3/3) Orc:4        Vaults (5/5) D:13
  Crypt (3/3) Vaults:2       Tomb (3/3) Crypt:3      Depths (5/5) D:15
   Hell (1/1)                 Dis (7/7) Hell            Geh (7/7) Hell
    Coc (7/7) Hell            Tar (7/7) Hell            Zot (5/5) Depths:5

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
D:9 *(*?=[(=![=?=*=   D:11 ((:*   Orc:2 %}   Orc:4 =*%!   Shoals:3 (
Snake:1 (   Vaults:3 =   Depths:1 :   Depths:3 ?:(**   Depths:5 (

Portals:
Hell: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:4
Pandemonium: Depths:3
Ziggurat: Depths:2


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
You are immune to poison.
You can fly continuously.
Your stone body is very resilient (AC +20).
Your wings are large and strong.
You resist negative energy.
You are resistant to electric shocks.
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are immune to rotting.
You have very sharp fingernails.
You have very sharp teeth.
You have hooves in place of feet.
You have a pair of large horns on your head.
You are mostly covered in iridescent scales (AC +6).
You are partially covered in thin metallic scales (AC +2).
Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stealth).
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You are very agile. (Dex +4)
You can translocate small distances at will.
You possess an exceptional clarity of mind.
Your mind is very acute. (Int +4)
Your flesh is cold resistant.
Your flesh is almost immune to the effects of heat.
You have a greatly increased reservoir of magic (+30% MP).
You are extremely resistant to the effects of hostile enchantments.
You passively map a small area around you.
You regenerate.
You are extremely robust (+30% HP).
Your thick and shaggy fur keeps you warm (AC +3, rC+).
You can spit strong poison.
Your muscles are very strong. (Str +4)
Your spells are much harder to cast, but much more powerful.
You rapidly evolve.




Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |   244 |   482 |   906 |  1150 |  2327 |   339 |       |       |       ||  5448
       Whip              |       |       |   308 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||   308
       Morningstar       |       |       |       |       |   185 |       |       |       |       ||   185
       Eveningstar       |       |       |       |       |       |  1913 |  1988 |  2197 | 56063 || 62161
       Eudemon blade     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |  5628 ||  5628
       Staff             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   147 ||   147
 Fire: Blowgun           |       |       |       |       |    15 |       |       |       |       ||    15
       Hand crossbow     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    18 ||    18
Throw: Stone             |    25 |    92 |    92 |     2 |       |       |       |       |       ||   211
       Tomahawk          |       |    11 |     5 |    56 |    23 |     6 |       |       |       ||   101
       Throwing net      |       |       |     2 |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 ||     6
       Javelin           |       |       |     5 |       |     3 |       |     6 |    12 |  1749 ||  1775
 Cast: Regeneration      |       |       |       |       |       |       |    39 |    91 |   261 ||   391
       Shroud of Golubri |       |       |       |       |       |       |     9 |     7 |    17 ||    33
       Abjuration        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     9 |    29 ||    38
       Deflect Missiles  |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    15 |   115 ||   130
       Haste             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   894 ||   894
       Silence           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    27 ||    27
       Singularity       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |  1582 ||  1582
       Tornado           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |  1138 ||  1138
       Aura of Abjuratio |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |  1031 ||  1031
       Fire Storm        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   754 ||   754
       Phase Shift       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   339 ||   339
       Glaciate          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    51 ||    51
       Blink             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     9 ||     9
       Airstrike         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     9 ||     9
       Swiftness         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     5 ||     5
       Apportation       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
Invok: Heroism           |       |       |     4 |    20 |    18 |    13 |    18 |     8 |    36 ||   117
       Finesse           |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |     4 |     2 |       ||     7
       Vitalisation      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |  1138 ||  1138
       Recite            |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   488 ||   488
       Sanctuary         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   138 ||   138
       Call Merchant     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    15 ||    15
 Abil: Fly               |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     1 |    26 ||    28
       Stop Flying       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |    25 ||    26
       Evoke Flight      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |   434 ||   437
       Crystal ball of e |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |  1325 ||  1325
       Staff of Wucad Mu |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   224 ||   224
       Disc of storms    |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    80 ||    80
       Deck              |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    31 ||    31
       Fan of gales      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |     7 |     5 |     7 |     2 |     4 |    17 |    10 |    15 |  1311 ||  1378
       Potion            |       |     2 |     5 |     3 |       |     2 |     5 |     3 |   429 ||   449
 Stab: Held in net/web   |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Invisible         |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |     5 |       |    76 ||    82
       Distracted        |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     2 |  1019 ||  1022
       Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   144 ||   144
       Confused          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   196 ||   196
       Paralysed         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    55 ||    55
       Fleeing           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    11 ||    11
       Petrified         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     8 ||     8
       Petrifying        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |     9 |    16 |    21 |    52 |    44 |    38 |    48 |   100 ||   330
       Bread ration      |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |     1 |   158 ||   160
       Beef jerky        |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |     1 |     1 |    84 ||    88
       Fruit             |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |   135 ||   139
       Royal jelly       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |   121 ||   123
       Pizza             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    52 ||    52
       Meat ration       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    78 ||    78

For this message the author Nebukadnezar has received thanks:
Sandman25

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 12:37

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Sometimes you want to leave silent spectres alive because they can stop many monsters casting as well as you. They actually make some floors much easier as long as you have melee skills.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 179

Joined: Wednesday, 15th June 2011, 17:39

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 12:55

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Nebukadnezar wrote:This is a Gargoyle of Zin with 18 completed ziggurats.

(Vitalisation is on for this dump:)

  Code:
Invok: Heroism           |       |       |     4 |    20 |    18 |    13 |    18 |     8 |    36 ||   117
       Finesse           |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |     4 |     2 |       ||     7
       Vitalisation      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |  1138 ||  1138
       Recite            |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   488 ||   488
       Sanctuary         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   138 ||   138
       Call Merchant     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    15 ||    15
 


Interesting. Did you switch to Gozag for a shopping spree and then back at some point?

Spider Stomper

Posts: 191

Joined: Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 00:14

Location: Germany

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 13:06

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

I've done it just recently.

I've switched ZIN->TSO->ZIN several times to apply the collected potions of beneficial mutation (whenever I had enough of them).
Instead of paying my way back to max piety with Zin (50% of cash as donation) I stayed some time in PAN/Abyss to get 100% mutation prot. again.

So I had enough money to check what Gozags shops look like.
Did cost me 31k to become his worshipper.
Spent 22k (?) on funding shops (15 new shops) in a nice looking 4x4 pattern around some stairs.
Chose jewelry whenever offered.
Didn't see anything of interest (for any char of that level) besides 2 artifact amulets.
So I bought only a few scrolls of identify :D.

Right now most monster I encounter are hasted, mighted or berserked by Gozag - I'm still under penace.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 179

Joined: Wednesday, 15th June 2011, 17:39

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 13:17

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Nebukadnezar wrote:I've done it just recently.

I've switched ZIN->TSO->ZIN several times to apply the collected potions of beneficial mutation (whenever I had enough of them).
Instead of paying my way back to max piety with Zin (50% of cash as donation) I stayed some time in PAN/Abyss to get 100% mutation prot. again.

So I had enough money to check what Gozags shops look like.
Did cost me 31k to become his worshipper.
Spent 22k (?) on funding shops (15 new shops) in a nice looking 4x4 pattern around some stairs.
Chose jewelry whenever offered.
Didn't see anything of interest (for any char of that level) besides 2 artifact amulets.
So I bought only a few scrolls of identify :D.

Right now most monster I encounter are hasted, mighted or berserked by Gozag - I'm still under penace.


Ahhh, I was wondering about your (delicious) mutation set, too. Well, Gozag wrath means little to you at that point so it's a neat trick. And I'm not surprised the shops held little interest... what with 18 Zigs completed.

Also I just noticed "Gold: 666" ... Pffft. :lol:

Spider Stomper

Posts: 191

Joined: Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 00:14

Location: Germany

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 13:42

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Zwobot wrote:
Ahhh, I was wondering about your (delicious) mutation set, too. Well, Gozag wrath means little to you at that point so it's a neat trick. And I'm not surprised the shops held little interest... what with 18 Zigs completed.


I've been looking for rings of wiz with better +INT than my current ones.

Here is the the full dump. (It's still an active game so it will be overwritten somewhen).
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... dnezar.txt


IIRC:
zigs 1-5: wm 1 (ringmail)
zigs 6-16: wm 2 (ida)
zigs 17-18: wm 3 (ringmail again)

WM is what forces me into certain pieces of equipment.


Zwobot wrote:Also I just noticed "Gold: 666" ... Pffft. :lol:


You cannot imagine how many complicated calculations I had to do to get THAT number :)



Since this is still an active game I could show a possible way of dealing with megazigs (without necromut/Makhleb) if there is interest in that.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 15:03

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Nebukadnezar wrote:Since this is still an active game I could show a possible way of dealing with megazigs (without necromut/Makhleb) if there is interest in that.


Can you please describe it with a few words please?

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Saturday, 25th April 2015, 01:30

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 16:06

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Maybe a silly question, but what's a "megazig?" Zigs I know, mega I don't.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4361

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 16:17

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

GrumpD wrote:Maybe a silly question, but what's a "megazig?" Zigs I know, mega I don't.

When you leave a Zig from the 27th floor, the following Zigs you enter will be much harder. If you complete another Zig, the next ones will be even harder etc. Zigs entered after completing one are called megazigs.
DCSS: 79: ...{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCK
SpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK
Bloat: 4: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa

For this message the author Sprucery has received thanks:
GrumpD

Spider Stomper

Posts: 191

Joined: Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 00:14

Location: Germany

Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 16:24

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Sandman25 wrote:
Nebukadnezar wrote:Since this is still an active game I could show a possible way of dealing with megazigs (without necromut/Makhleb) if there is interest in that.


Can you please describe it with a few words please?


Each Ziglevel (I'm only talking about zig-levels where everything is covered by monster) is entered with
- full MP
- full HP
- Vitalisation
- Haste
- Aura of Abj.
- no flying

Haste will give me 2 actions against most enemies when I enter a level.
Usually these are:
1. fire storm to clear 1 tile on the edge of LOS
2. singularity

This is followed by Tornado and Recite (to confuse enmies).
Then I move toward the center of singularity in a way that I cover the most ground for Tornado+recite.
That's 3*9=27 MP spent.
When I get over the center of Sing I retreat and wait for sing. to end (and for the cooldown of Tornado to stop)
Enemies who stayed outside of the range of Tornado will move towards me where Sing. is.
Recasting Singularity+Tornado and channeling of mp (CBoE). This might get me down to 0 MP: switching to Wucad Mu, so I'm only doing this when the second Tornado+Sing. are active. Around this time Aura of Abj. will end and is recast, too.

Repeat until everything is cleared.
Besides casting, moving and channeling there isn't much time to melee.
It will give me 3 damage-dealing effects (sing.,tornado, recite) for a long time in addition to abjuring every summon without having to use a turn to cast anything during that time but will expose me to monster since most monster will survive several rounds of Tornado or Sing.

This applies to levels from Orc, Elf, Vault, Lair, Snake, Shoals and some others.
I'll get into details for the more difficult levels later, where I have to take different measures.
This char has to watch his MP (no mp for kills) and HP (still rather low HP).
If there are many smiters in LOS I might throw in a fire storm if they are fragile AND I have enough MP left (after casting this fire storm)
Spider levels are with Invis but otherwise unchanged.

Glow might happen especially close to the end of Haste+Invis or when miscasts happen (while hasted) thanks to the long lasting effect of Haste at max power.
I dislike glow and try to avoid it (I like my set of beneficial mutations)

Miscasts will happen.
At 1% I had 2 times a double miscast of sing. and fire storm.
Most of the time everything goes according to plan but surviving is imo not about dealing the max. possible damage but staying alive and be prepared for bad situations.

Penance will happen.
In big Pandemonium levels there will be holy beings somewhen. If f.e. my sing. kills them without them having seen me (so they are still neutral. Singularity even kills outside of LOS) Zin will put me under penance (happend more than once). Passive skills remain (mut-protection) but Vitalisiaion/Sanctuary/Recite will be removed and no recasting possible until he forgives.

I'll describe these levels and how I deal with the situations when shit happens when I have more time (main difference are javelins of penetration and Sanctuary)
It will happen somewhen, so I cannot rely on my spells always succeeding.

Usually I'm not flying because there will be a lot of levels with titans/air mages/random spell set with airstrike (smiting!). Can still be dangerous while flying with a tornado so there are situations where I could deal more damage with tornado but decide not to cast it.

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Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 17:51

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Thank you for the detailed description!

Nebukadnezar wrote:In big Pandemonium levels there will be holy beings somewhen. If f.e. my sing. kills them without them having seen me (so they are still neutral. Singularity even kills outside of LOS) Zin will put me under penance (happend more than once).


I think this is a bug, haven't you reported it to mantis?

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 01:48

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

'few words' part 2:

Mummy levels:
1. Sanctuary
2. Tornado / Singularity

It is possible to do a lot of things while Sanctuary is active :)
Sanctuary will blast everything in LOS but it will not always clear a tile for you especially when you get hit with slow: new monster will move into empty tiles or summons appear (before they are abjured the next turn)
If I see an empty tile I'll cast Singularity, followed by Tornado. Otherwise I'll cast Tornado, move forward to the edge of my Sanctuary until Singularity can be placed somewhere (doesn't really matter where for the first cast).
Moving inside Sanctuary into a tile with enemies will swap positions which means Tornado will cover much more ground than usual.
Neither casting Tornado (inside of Sanctuary) nor the placement of Singularity (outside the Sanctuary) are counted as an attack regarding the rules for ZIN's Sanctuary.
The following damage dealt by both spells is also nothing Zin will dislike.
Fire Storm/Glaciate on the other hand would put me under penance.

At the corner of my Sanctuary I'll cast Recite IF
- I'm not down to whatever level of HP I consider to be a risk
and IF
- a lot of Greater Mummies are not going to die at once the next turn inside my Singularity.

Now I'm free to use my wands of Healing for the damage received from death curses while I'm still dealing damage from up to 3 sources each turn without intercepting Recite.
Sanctuary will shrink soon. Before Recite ends I'll step 1 tile away from the corner ready to go back to the center of Sanctuary where it will disappear in the end.
I'll repeat this for as long I consider to be able to recover the piety costs for Sanctuary with the remaining enemies.
Again I'm only channeling MP when I have several turns free of pressing matters and not before I get the second Sanct. and the second Sing. ready.

The last mummies I handle with a singularity at the edge of LOS (this is recast whenever it expires) without Sanctuary/Tornado/Recite.
Any Greater Mummy approaching to the left or right can be eliminated by javelins of penetration.
I also have the option to remain inactive. With stealth close to max most of the time noone will notice me standing in the corner, so they could just walk on, stumble in the Sing. and get sucked in.
Minor Undeads (anything which is not a Greater Mummy or a Priest) I ignore most of the time until I have nothing else to do with my turn. This Gargoyle is very hard to hit.
So in the end I'm standing stealthy in my corner adjacent to some minor undead and whenever a Greater Mummy decides not to walk into my Singularity it'll get a few javelins of penetration (killing the minor undeads, too).

In theory I could recast Sanctuary (costs a lot of piety) whenever it expires over and over again (unless piety drops to a level too low for that) but I want to remain at 100% piety when the level is finished and be ready for the next level.
In Mummy levels every monster will give piety so this is one of the easier levels for a follower of ZIN as long as you are not getting too many death curses at once, watch your HP and make a good guess at the amount of incoming death curses in the following turn.

I could kill Greater Mummies by f.e. Fire Storm but this would create the otherwise welcome fire-allies:
I cannot control them.
They will move into tiles outside of my LOS (or I might be forced to step 1 tile back)
In a situation where I would be forced to cast Sanctuary again I could be in trouble: Singularity active with several mummies at low health outside of my LOS and my fire-allies might give them the killing blow. This would put me under penance which could be very very dangerous in this level.
So: I don't use Fire Storm in levels where I want to use Sanctuary or where I might need it as an option for escape.
In general: I cannot use anything that would create/summon allies which are not under my control.

Fire Storm has another downside for me: I simply don't have enough MP for that and channeling is too unreliable if I have to cast it more than once :)
Sitting at 0 MP when I absolutely need my Sanctuary NOW (costs 7 MP) is too much a risk. Any turn there could be 5 Greater Mummies appearing at once deciding to ignore my stealth.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 02:07

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

I see. Bug with killing neutral holy beings with singularity is cancelled by bug with casting Tornado/Singularity while in Sanctuary :)
I don't understand why you move 1 tile away from sanctuary (if I got it right), does recite trigger penance when used from sanctuary?

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 02:11

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Sandman25 wrote:Thank you for the detailed description!

Nebukadnezar wrote:In big Pandemonium levels there will be holy beings somewhen. If f.e. my sing. kills them without them having seen me (so they are still neutral. Singularity even kills outside of LOS) Zin will put me under penance (happend more than once).


I think this is a bug, haven't you reported it to mantis?


I've made several statements in this quote.

Holy beings:
Angels/Deavas can appear outside of their Zig-cage in Pan. Like they can in the abyss.
If a summoner 'calls forth dwellers from the abyss' (or whatever the in-game message for that is) there is a small chance to get holy beings among them. Doesn't happen very often but it does happen.
This is not a bug

Neutral:
I'm not sure (or better: uninformed) about the conditions/flags the monster have but ZIN has no problem with me killing holy beings. As long as they've noticed me (they always become hostile then). But the holy beings I'm talking about haven't seen me. They have only seen my Singularity which has the red-heart-symbol for being something like an ally. And this ally-Singularity kills them. Bad for me.
Nothing special happens if a holy being is killed by my Singularity when the holy being has already noticed me (becoming hostile) even when I have Sanctuary active.

Ally:
I'm unsure about what a Singularity is.
When it kills f.e. a Greater Mummy it's me who is receiving the death curse.
On the other hand I can place a Singularity wherever I want even when my Sanctuary is active. And unlike other 'allies' it can kill almost anything without me being resposible for its actions.
I'm really not sure what Singularity is: an effect in an area for which noone is responsible ? my spell (for which I would be responsible) ? my ally ?

So I'm not sure whether this is not wad.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 02:18

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Sandman25 wrote:I see. Bug with killing neutral holy beings with singularity is cancelled by bug with casting Tornado/Singularity while in Sanctuary :)
I don't understand why you move 1 tile away from sanctuary (if I got it right), does recite trigger penance when used from sanctuary?



I've started playing DCSS with 0.15.
I've always used Tornado together with Sanctuary, so this is 'normal' to me :)

1 tile:
When the Sanctuary shrinks while I'm standing at the edge I would end my turn outside of the Sanctuary.
Which would mean that everybody could smite me to death within 1 turn.
Since I'm usually at 'haste+slow' (from death curses) by that time I wouldn't be able to re-enter my Sanctuary even if I could survive that turn.
Yes: Offline I've died that way trying to get back to my ever-shrinking Sanctuary because I wanted to get an audiance as big as possible for my sensational Recite for as long as possible :D

EDIT:
No, Recite can be used inside the Sanctuary without any harm (to me !). Recite (like Tornado or Aura of Abjuration) is a status lasting several turns.
For you it may sound esoterical but from a programmers point of view there might be a big difference: Casting Fire Storm does damage. Casting Tornado/Recite/Aura of Abj. doesn't do any damage at all but give you a status effect. And this status effect does the damage then. It's not you or me or any other one: it's the status :)

Reading a scroll of Holy Word can also be used inside the Sanctuary without violating anything which doesn't fit into that pattern.
On the other hand: if ScoHW would be treated as a 1-turn-status-effect of Recite (reusing the code) there wouldn't be a visible status notion.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 03:18

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Nebukadnezar wrote:For you it may sound esoterical but from a programmers point of view there might be a big difference: Casting Fire Storm does damage. Casting Tornado/Recite/Aura of Abj. doesn't do any damage at all but give you a status effect. And this status effect does the damage then. It's not you or me or any other one: it's the status :)


I believe from programmer point of view it is a feature for Tornado/Recite and a bug for Singularity. I think devs didn't want to cancel Tornado because player could be flying above deep water and they didn't want to cancel recite because it would make no sense from flavor standpoint. Singularity is not different from other allies (like you described a problem with fire vortexes), it deals damage to monsters and triggers death curse from mummies. It attacks out of LoS though, so probably it is a feature too.

Edit. But casting Tornado/Singularity/invoking Recite from sanctuary is as buggy as casting Fire Storm, it should get penance.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 04:46

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

'few words' part 3

Tormentors, Hellions, etc. + undead:

The undead are important here because ZIN doesn't give Piety for killing the most dangerous demons.
So I can treat this level exactly like a mummy level with 1 exception:
After 2-3 Santuaries there won't be enough 'piety' concentrated but they would still be numerous in big levels.
I need protection from Hellfire for Hellions/Hell Sentinels/etc. will appear to the left or right of my Singularity.
So far I've been able to kill anything with javelins of penetration. I'm trying to keep some minor monster alive and adjacent to me. Anything that is suspectible to Hellfire will work. I've never been Hell-fired this way. Only when my javelins accidently kill all of them AND a Hellfire-demon notices me they MIGHT Hellfire me (they also might chose to walk closer)


Chaotic/Pandemonium levels:

Again like Mummy levels in many aspects.
There is enough piety around for this.
From time to time there are MP-draining monster among them.
Allowing them in my LOS would reduce my MP to 0 in a few turns. Those I kill with Fire Storm.
Nearing the end I cannot handle Pan Lords like the other levels because they will happily cast Glaciate/etc.
They won't do that if someone is around or behind me.
So that''s when I'm fighting inside my Singularity trying to always be between 2 Pan Lords thus preventing them from using their big spells.
The last few Pan Lords are usually among the most dangerous ones because then I won't have any cover left.
Singularity has another effect besides dealing damage: it will will confuse monster when they are rotated for 1 turn. I'm adding Tornado to that inside my Sing. and will cast Fire Storm at any remaining chaos crab outside of this 'desaster area' using Orb/Wucad Mu nearly every third turn.
These are the most demanding levels to me because I have to permanently watch my position inside this 'desaster area' to remain protected from their big spells.
There is a danger by fighting inside of my Sing.: A Pan Lord might collide with you which might cause damage. (I don't know how this is calculated)


Silent levels:
Javelins of Penetration against (in that order)
1. Curse skulls/Curse toes
2. Revenants or Tormentors/Hellions if the silent spectres are too numerous or remain outside of LOS
If this doesn't work and I'm still under silence I'll use Disc of Storms for removing some minor monsters (creating more space for silent spectres to hopefully come closer) and/or getting cover by the created rain tiles if too many curse skulls at once are attracted.
I'm still surprised how fast and powerful javelins of penetration are.
Again I'm trying to keep harmless monster suspectible to Hellfire adjacent to me if Hellfire-monster are present.


Slime levels:
Biggest threat: a lot of Eyes of draining (EoD) which would leave me at 0 MP if I allow them too long in m LOS.
The first 2 spells here are 2 Fire Storm which should eliminate every EoD even if this means that I have to cast a Fire Storm centered on me :)
Next spell is Singularity at the edge of LOS covering one half and me casting Fire Storm every few turns if
a) there are too many slimes at once
or
b) an EoD appears

A Level where I only watch my MP, do channeling and count the turns remaining for the next recast of Sing.
No melee, no throwing, no movement.



Fire Levels:
It's looking scary with that many OOF but this is not a dangerous level with 100% mutation prot.
1 Glaciate
1 Sing.
1 Tornado to clear out whatever is occupying MY corner
From this corner I'll recast Glaciate whenever too much is getting around Sing.
Single threats or those which are friendly enough to line up along the edge of the level are dealt with javelins of penetr.
Channeling (like in every other level) is only done when Sing is steady for several turns.





While I started as a fighter my main weapon is probably the least important piece of equipment.
The main job of my equipment is providing as many layers of protection against any harm as possible while I cast mainly Spells which give a long-lasting status effect.
This char is mainly a carrier for this collection of status effects.
I've been asked (by visitors online) whether an axe wouldn't be better. In most cases I'm not interested in killing the monster which I allow to be adjacent to me: I want them to be there to protect me from bigger threats. They can hardly harm me with their attacks.
A very important layer of defence is my shield.
I get Iron-shot/Orb-of-Destr./Crystal spear and whatever a lot. A lot from Hell Sentinels who are frustrated that an algorithm prevents them from Hellfire me.
I cannot remember any damage from them which might be untrue but I'm watching my low HP very closely and haven't noticed anything from that kind of threat: block, block, block. For this kind of char 1-handed weapon with shield worked very fine.



Situations where I was close to death:
1. Sing.+Torn.+Recite can deal a lot damage at once. But once in a while there might be a situation where in 1 turn there won't die a single Greater Mummy while in next one nearly all of them will die at once.
I was standing around thinking that I could try some channeling. Next turn everything came at once.
And my channeling failed leaving me with 0 MP.
And my Sanctuary shrinked so I had to move back.
Nearly died.
Now I'm trying to predict WHEN I'm going to take a lot damage at once to be prepared for that.


2. Silence level 1:
I've played this char (very similiar) offline and always had a lot of shoal levels (the source for javelins of penetr).
Here I relied on getting them, too, but I didn't get any shoal levels for the first 5 zigs.
There wasn't any javel. of pentr. in shops or at the floor in the main dungeon.
I worked around that for the first 5 zigs until I hit a wall.
Aura of Abj. expired.
Disc of Storms did too much damage to me and didn't hit anything of importance.
Several curse skulls appeared.
Revenants filled the screen with their summons.
I used a teleport which put me in a situation not much better.
Trying to get to closer to the curse skulls I cleared some tiles but always the wrong monster stepped into.
Here an axe would have been useful.
I had several visitors writing something like 'slow slow death' and they were right.
I used a second teleport and for reasons unknown to me the curse skulls stopped for some time allowing me getting back to almost 2/3 hp when the teleport kicked in.
And the teleport got me 2 tiles away from exit/downstairs. It was Level 26 :)
I survived by sheer luck.
After this I used a 1-handed crossbow and collected all the (few) bolts of penetr. in the dungeon.
This works, too, but could get ugly if a curse would have fixed me into using that crossbow for the rest of a silence level.
Lesson learned: there is a lot of loot in Zigs and even more in megazigs but you shouldn't count on getting what you want.
Something of penet. is needed imo. for silence levels.


3. Silence level 3:
I forgot to pay attention to my status.
Vitalistion ended. The same turn a silent spectre (still outside my LOS) moved and put me under his umbrella of silence.
And somehow an ancient lich avoided my sing AND avoided the silenced area AND used that turn to confuse me.
I needed several turns to quaff a potion, get out of silence, get Vitalisition back, get sing. back (ended during that time).
During that time the ancient lich used all of his anti-Gargoyle spells he had at his disposal because I hadn't payed attention late at night that I hadn't any cover anymore.
ZIN protected me and kept me alive with 1 HP.
I should have died.
Lesson: it doesn't matter how invincible you feel.
In a megazig there is always something that might kill you if you don't pay attention.
In a very long campaign like this most of the bad things that could happen will happen somewhen.


Compared to this the 2 times of double miscasts or me misclicking (I casted Silence instead of Fire Storm :D ) were harmless.

Getting sapped is not that dangerous to this char.
It can only happen after 2/3 of the level are already cleared.
There is always Sanctuary if I feel like.
Or I could ignore it and reduce my castings to just Singularity which I can do twice even while sapped: 1 regular. And another one with potion of brill. I just have to remember that I cannot cast anything else and should use Sanct. instead.


Berserkered:
Happened to me several times. This alone is harmless to this char.
The main danger imo is in Aura of Abj. running out during that time and Pan Lords summon a lot of mp-draining monster or giant eyeballs.
This is my worst case scenario.
So far I've been able to kill the ones responsible fast enough.
I've been thinking about that for a long time (in my offline game) and decided that I SHOULD use an amulet of Stasis which would also prevent me from using haste.
I could live without haste.
But I.........
have at least an excuse here: I NEED 3 rings of WIZ to cast any spells with WM 3 :)

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 09:28

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Thanks for the extensive write up! A few things about Sanctuary certainly surprised me - I would have thought that tornado/singularity/recite interrupt it. Or Holy Word for that matter...

Then there's the friendly fire trick - i.o.w. Sentinels not casting their Hellfire when it would harm an ally (of theirs). Does this still work in trunk? And when exactly? I've kept this one in mind - since avoiding Hellfire is always a good idea, but haven't quite gotten the hang of it.

Stormcallers for example certainly don't care what friendlies they hit. Or Lom? Can I lure him to another Pan level, get an orange demon or something as cover and then avoid Glaciate? Mhmm....

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 09:45

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Thanks Nebukadnezar for sharing your Zig strategies. Some of them I would never have come up with.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 12:04

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Sorry about destroying the fun, the bugs were fixed after my report. Don't die on next mummy floor.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 12:40

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Sandman25 wrote:Sorry about destroying the fun, the bugs were fixed after my report. Don't die on next mummy floor.


That's absolutely fine :D
I'm a programmer.
Anything which is a bug and not wad should be gotten rid of asap.

(I probably wouldn't have reported it because these are my first posts in this forum)


According to the response from the developers in your report it seems that Recite and ScoHW are left untouched (because of flavour ?)

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 12:56

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Nebukadnezar wrote:That's absolutely fine :D
I'm a programmer.
Anything which is a bug and not wad should be gotten rid of asap.

(I probably wouldn't have reported it because these are my first posts in this forum)


According to the response from the developers in your report it seems that Recite and ScoHW are left untouched (because of flavour ?)


I am glad you feel it this way. I didn't feel comfortable that I asked you to share your strategy and then asked devs to destroy them. I am a professional in IT too so probably you understand why I did that ;)
I am not sure about Recite, it got ignored by devs so I guess it is ok.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 13:01

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Zwobot wrote:Then there's the friendly fire trick - i.o.w. Sentinels not casting their Hellfire when it would harm an ally (of theirs). Does this still work in trunk? And when exactly? I've kept this one in mind - since avoiding Hellfire is always a good idea, but haven't quite gotten the hang of it.

Stormcallers for example certainly don't care what friendlies they hit. Or Lom? Can I lure him to another Pan level, get an orange demon or something as cover and then avoid Glaciate? Mhmm....


It has been working for me since I started playing (a Gargoyle).
Hellfire has a small range so it's easy to check (and I guess the caster itself is never checked)
Spells with f.e. unpredictable 'movement' won't be checked.
I doesn't work with torment afaik.

I don't know anything about trunk.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 15:28

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

From ##crawl-dev in later discussion:

  Code:
06:22:55 <MarvinPA> nice, ranged combat also doesn't break sanctuary
06:23:00 <MarvinPA> presumably since the rewrite
06:23:34 <MarvinPA> // TODO: sanctuary
06:23:36 <MarvinPA> ...............


Then a bit later:

  Code:
07:06:00 <Cheibriados> MarvinPA * 0.17-a0-1416-gdf36fac: Don't revoke sanctuary when a confused ally attacks you (4 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 2-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/df36facd8c4e
07:06:31 <MarvinPA> sanctuary sure is weird and complicated


Also, MarvinPA apparently wants to remove singularity (discussion prompted by this bug report), which would suck, I really love that spell -- hopefully it will just be nerfed in a way that doesn't make it too different.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 15:32

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

advil wrote:Also, MarvinPA apparently wants to remove singularity (discussion prompted by this bug report), which would suck, I really love that spell -- hopefully it will just be nerfed in a way that doesn't make it too different.


I would support the removal. I am playing in wizard mode now, clearing 5 level of a megazig with a single cast of Singularity and without noticing any monsters is absolutely broken. Something like "You feel more experienced.x14".

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 15:58

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Sandman25 wrote:
advil wrote:Also, MarvinPA apparently wants to remove singularity (discussion prompted by this bug report), which would suck, I really love that spell -- hopefully it will just be nerfed in a way that doesn't make it too different.


I would support the removal. I am playing in wizard mode now, clearing 5 level of a megazig with a single cast of Singularity and without noticing any monsters is absolutely broken. Something like "You feel more experienced.x14".


Well there's been extensive discussion elsewhere of ways to nerf it without removing it, and removing its ability to kill out of sight monsters is certainly one (also: make it affect player/allies, remove its physical blocking effect, have the gravity component scale a bit more). Any one of these nerfs IMO would bring it in line with firestorm power-wise. I've only used it on a really weak character (fecj with no rF) , where it was a stretch (including some risky play in vaults:5) to get to xp-wise, and really rewardingly/effectively balanced out that character's weaknesses without making it completely OP (I still had one death after getting it online); I think it is a fun and clever idea and (unlike MarvinPA apparently) think it fits really nicely with other high-level tloc on the theme of manipulating enemy locations. Also, right now vehumet as far as I could tell doesn't support it (though flavor-wise this seems wrong, it makes sense power-wise). I don't think a megazig clearing character is really the right metric to judge the spell on, though I agree it is probably a bit more powerful than firestorm, and probably the most powerful spell in zig play currently judging from Nebukadnezar's (fairly amazing) character.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 16:01

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

I meant I would support removal if it cannot be fixed. I used the spell with normal characters too (not wizard mode and not in zig), that was just an example to show how ridiculous it is currently.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 16:34

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

Having now used the spell once, I can definitely understand that it's too low risk. I also kind of feel like the actual translocation effect is smaller than my 'flavour' conception of a level 9 T'Loc spell.

Maybe if they strengthen the actual T'loc effect and reduce it's damage it would help?

Or alternatively you could just have it have a glow or MP cost/10 auts of it being offscreen. I'd like to keep it's potential at off-screen kills if possible, just make you pay for them with tactical resources. That would retain it's independence from the other level 9s.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 16:50

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

byrel wrote:I also kind of feel like the actual translocation effect is smaller than my 'flavour' conception of a level 9 T'Loc spell.


I really disagree. I've seen this sentiment before and I think most people who say this have mainly used it on reasonably strong characters (ok ac, resists, etc) and so just haven't had to make serious use of the ways you can manipulate enemy location with it (since it is good at both this and damage). But try using it on a 3ac felid with no rF in zot, and its true amazing-ness will come through, possibly altering how you use it in the future. Where dispersal/disjunction are great if you don't want things to stand next to you, singularity is great when you want some enemies to stay over there (for some value of there). One factor in this perception might be the current lack of a penalty for casting it right next to you.

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Zwobot

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 17:03

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

advil wrote:
byrel wrote:I also kind of feel like the actual translocation effect is smaller than my 'flavour' conception of a level 9 T'Loc spell.


I really disagree. I've seen this sentiment before and I think most people who say this have mainly used it on reasonably strong characters (ok ac, resists, etc) and so just haven't had to make serious use of the ways you can manipulate enemy location with it (since it is good at both this and damage). But try using it on a 3ac felid with no rF in zot, and its true amazing-ness will come through, possibly altering how you use it in the future. Where dispersal/disjunction are great if you don't want things to stand next to you, singularity is great when you want some enemies to stay over there (for some value of there). One factor in this perception might be the current lack of a penalty for casting it right next to you.


Agreed! I love using it in Pan, while constantly running away (with my squishy XL 24 Sp). Basically using it to drop it on my tail/block fiends and continue running.

I don't actually expect it to kill Hell Sentinels/Panlords though - which it does. So there's plenty room for nerfing damage wise.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd June 2015, 17:04

Re: 0.16 Zigs. Some questions.

advil wrote: I've seen this sentiment before and I think most people who say this have mainly used it on reasonably strong characters (ok ac, resists, etc) and so just haven't had to make serious use of the ways you can manipulate enemy location with it (since it is good at both this and damage).


Actually it was on a spriggan who sacrificed armour and skills, with only either no rF, or rF+ most of the time in Zot. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16561

It certainly won me the game. But it mostly won me the game because I could leave it to bring something to half HP before it escaped the singularity, then recast it to finish it off. OoF would walk straight through it. I think they'd get one confused turn. OTOH, it did make Orb guardians trivial in chokepoints, since it can't be destroyed.
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