Felids: This difficulty curve...

[Tressol]

Assuming I survive character level 1, I generally roll through all of lair and orc with no problems, do D down to 15 and then I just die (three times, naturally) in whatever branch I try.

Specifically, I've been playing some Felid Enchanters (generally of Dith, which seems very powerful up to this point, but sometimes Nemelex, which seems more fun so maybe that's what I should be focusing on), and this has happened at least three times. One was a dumb mistake where I was just being too aggressive and not paying attention, but most recently, after clearing D:15 I came back and tried to do Swamp...

Thorn Hunters are death (I managed to kill one by charming a Hydra, but I'm not sure that I had any other way to do anything meaningful to it. Actually, Thorn Hunters are generally one of my more hated monsters at the moment, not just for Felid) and Spriggans have too much MR to hex and move faster than I do (I did have Metabolic Englaciation, which I guess I should have used on them, but they also tend to have ranged options). Enemy Spriggans also seem very alert - I can generally just walk up and stab Hydras, Dragons and uniques with my absurd Dithmenos Stealth, but not Spriggan riders. :/

Swamp, Spider, and Shoals all just seem too wide open for a fragile Felid at this stage... But where else should I have gone (Note: I did try Depths one time, and maybe that is the answer, but I messed that up, too)? Do I need to branch into Conjurations (I don't have a lot of ranged options as a cat, but the aptitude isn't good, and Felid INT isn't all *that* high, so it seems like a losing battle to me.)? Anyone have any experience making it to endgame with a Felid, or Felid tips in general? Besides the obvious tip where you don't play a Felid, of course.

[nilsbloodaxe]

Assuming I survive character level 1, I generally roll through all of lair and orc with no problems, do D down to 15 and then I just die (three times, naturally) in whatever branch I try.

Specifically, I've been playing some Felid Enchanters (generally of Dith, which seems very powerful up to this point, but sometimes Nemelex, which seems more fun so maybe that's what I should be focusing on), and this has happened at least three times. One was a dumb mistake where I was just being too aggressive and not paying attention, but most recently, after clearing D:15 I came back and tried to do Swamp...

Thorn Hunters are death (I managed to kill one by charming a Hydra, but I'm not sure that I had any other way to do anything meaningful to it. Actually, Thorn Hunters are generally one of my more hated monsters at the moment, not just for Felid) and Spriggans have too much MR to hex and move faster than I do (I did have Metabolic Englaciation, which I guess I should have used on them, but they also tend to have ranged options). Enemy Spriggans also seem very alert - I can generally just walk up and stab Hydras, Dragons and uniques with my absurd Dithmenos Stealth, but not Spriggan riders. :/

Swamp, Spider, and Shoals all just seem too wide open for a fragile Felid at this stage... But where else should I have gone (Note: I did try Depths one time, and maybe that is the answer, but I messed that up, too)? Do I need to branch into Conjurations (I don't have a lot of ranged options as a cat, but the aptitude isn't good, and Felid INT isn't all *that* high, so it seems like a losing battle to me.)? Anyone have any experience making it to endgame with a Felid, or Felid tips in general? Besides the obvious tip where you don't play a Felid, of course.

Are you training Fighting, Dodging, and UC at all?

[Berder]

Yes - thorn hunters can only be killed with brute force. If you go heavy on the melee training and use great caution, you can take them down. if you get some conjurations you can kill them that way, or if you find some good rods and train a lot of evocations that's also a possibility. You could also worship Kiku and use corpse delivery a few times + animate dead to get some allies, or train summonings. Monstrous menagerie or shadow creatures should be enough to take down a thorn hunter. If you're an enchanter, by the time you're entering lair you should be thinking about how you're going to deal with enemies that your hexes or invisibility don't work on.

You can also run away from thorn hunters with blinks/teles/haste/etc, and then skip the level (go downstairs). It's dangerous to leave them alive, but if you have no other options, it is a possible tactic.

I have won 3 felids: FeBe, FeEn, and FeFE. My FeEn and FeFE were pure blaster casters, my FeBe was pure melee.

[Sprucery]

I recommend FeBe. At least skill training is straightforward :)

[Tressol]

In answer to Nilsbloodaxe, yes, I was training all of those. UC was around 11, Dodging and Fighting a little less than that on the character in question.

Yes, I had some wands but nothing that could take out a Thorn Hunter quickly, and their accuracy seems very high. Keep in mind Dithmenos=no fire. :/

My solution to things I couldn't hex (and I didn't have a reliable source of Invisibility) was supposed to be ungodly stealth backed up by evocables in case of emergency... I never found a book with any translocations beyond Apportation, so I didn't have any non-consumable escapes beyond running away (and I found one or two blink scrolls all game. Lots of other neat consumables, though, an plenty of wands). I could have wielded my Lantern of Shadows against the Thorn Hunter, but I was also fairly cornered - it might have bought me the time to teleport. But the Spriggans are almost an even worse problem. The Three Deaths on this guy were Thorn Hunter, Spriggan Druid (Those flailing trees actually do damage when you're a felid... I was trying to run, and had him locked in melee with some charmed thing or other...), and the aforementioned Spriggan Rider death (there were, I think 2, but one was troublesome enough).

[MrRokkomies]

In latest trunk you should be able to confuse all monsters that are not entirely immune to magic, assuming you got the skill.

[sanka]

Felid enchanter of Dith is not easy exactly because Dith does not really help you too much to kill things that you cannot stab. Keep this in mind. You could avoid most fights tough.

UC was around 11, Dodging and Fighting a little less than that on the character in question.

11 fighting and dodging is way too low by the time you are doing swamp. I myself would consider 15 as a bare minimum, but for a character that needs to avoid fights I would have trained them even higher. A character dump would help more, because I have no idea what did you spend your xp on instead.

I would especially train dodging, not just because felids have good aptitude and gain a lot of EV, but Dith's umbra gives accuracy penalty to enemies. Do not neglect fighting tough: there are attacks that ignore EV, and HP is very important.

(More experienced players may give you better advice on skill training, but I think they will not give too much advice without a character dump, because there are too many things one could consider.)

[nilsbloodaxe]

Felid enchanter of Dith is not easy exactly because Dith does not really help you too much to kill things that you cannot stab. Keep this in mind. You could avoid most fights tough.

I don't know about Dith not helping kill things you can't stab. Dith does give shadow mimic, and unlike short blades, UC can be made not shitty. I would guess, but as sanka said, without a char dump I can't really tell, that you didn't train your melee skills enough.

[Sar]

how does shadow UC even work

[duvessa]

badly

[tasonir]

I do not have experience with Dith felids, but here's some general thoughts on felids. The obvious restriction you have to build around is the -40% hp, which is surprisingly a lot more impactful than even having 0 armor slots. There are 3 general ways to do that:

Trog - berserk gives +50% hp, and will get you through any tough fights pretty well. Obviously you have to deal with berserk ending, and while you'll lose the hp, you can at least (sort of) run away with a slowed felid. It's much better to have nothing left over when berserk ends, of course.

Summons/Conjurations - Basically killing everything at range and not being in a situtation where you'll take damage. Ok in theory, but there are enough ranged mobs out there, bad situations, player mistakes, etc where this can break down.

Transmutations - Transmutations often give +hp, and occasionally armor. Plus, you won't meld any equipment, so they're strong.

I personally have experience with the Trog and Transmutations strategies, I don't play many conjurers and have never played a "pure" summoner. My main complaint about the Trog felid is that you do tend to "max out" in power somewhat earlier than usual, so you won't be as overpowered by the time you get to depths/V:5/zot. They are quite capable everywhere before that, of course. You definitely want a guardian spirit amulet here, which is another wonderful trick to beat the -40% hp. Guardian spirit can be used with transmutations strategies as well, although you have to be a bit more careful about running out of mana entirely.

I still personally recommend statue form, as I do far too often, but felids especially benefit from it since it's got both ac and hp, which they normally don't have. They don't even walk all that slowly with it, assuming you aren't doing something silly like worshipping Chei. Ice form can be a good transitional form if you don't have statue form yet. In order for good ac from it you'll need ozo's armor, but even just statue form will double/triple the 3 ac you have otherwise

My berserker: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 055250.txt
My transmuter: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 155739.txt

[rchandra]

This is one time when I agree with the Statue form recommendation, though it was a lot better with jumping. Maybe a Ru felid could do well with it.

FeAK gies some killing power and escape options: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 020442.txt
Hydraform lets you stab a whole group at once! (Dith character, stabbing, no statueform) http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/hyperrchand ... 212410.txt

[edgefigaro]

Ru does seem to be a natural Felid fit.

[tasonir]

I like how you were so interested in getting AC that you wore not one but two +2 rings of protection. I am sure you switched with the resist rings as needed, but I still find the idea hilarious

[rchandra]

I like how you were so interested in getting AC that you wore not one but two +2 rings of protection. I am sure you switched with the resist rings as needed, but I still find the idea hilarious :)

Yeah, you take what you can get. I've had many a character wish they could meld rings +1 to +3 of AC/EV into a ring large enough to keep but that cat was truly desperate.

[Berder]

Generally, on a felid, don't think "I have no AC so I better get whatever I can" - it doesn't work that way. The first few points of AC aren't that great if you have no GDR. Though in your game you may have had no better alternatives. For a felid that has high ev, another point of ev is usually worth more than a point of ac.

[Turukano]

By the way - what do you mean with your signature, Berder?

<Sequell> Berder is a greateroctopode!

Something like this?

[Berder]

I may or may not be a kraken It means I've won every octopode.