Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game


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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 02:18

Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Other than worship Kiku, TSO, Zin, or use necromutation, because they are not always viable, what are some tips on handling this part of the game?

I ask because I entered Tomb, and got pretty messed up pretty quick. Had one character do well in Pan and they other got pretty tore up by torment. Is this just bad luck in getting stuck in a corridor with a curse skull or is there something I can do to increase my odds of living?

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 02:35

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

A really nice ranged weapon, solid skill, and the ability to cast Portal Projectile will go very far in saving your ass against torment/hellfire.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 06:05

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Walking away from things, trying to minimize what's in sight. Tomb in particular the main goal is to keep things manageable by retreating away from the start of fights, or going up stairs. Things can't torment you if they're not on screen. Being dead is one way they won't be on screen, which brings me to the next tip:

Having good offense. A ranged (especially smite, as cerealjynx says) attack is useful, but not needed. I would recommend at least carrying wand of cold for hellions. But a good solid melee attack like a eudemon blade, or great mace will go a long way. Holy and antimagic brands are the best but others will be OK - my third choice might be vorpal, unless I'm forgetting something.

Be willing to flee. Especially in Pan, there's nothing keeping you on any floor other than the four non-random lords'. teleport, run to portals, etc. Until I know I'm hunting the demonic rune I just take portals right away, no need to let the random floor spawns eat me. Maybe I'll see a known rune vault or holy pan on the way to the other four runes. In Hell, rush down as fast as possible and run up if things are bad, just try again.
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Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 06:41

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

The above is all true, I would add only a few more things:

First, if you want to do extended, have an access to haste. I think extended was designed with an assumption that you haste yourself. So, plan A: learn the spell. Plan B: have a haste wand and lots of recharge scrolls. And use haste A LOT.

Second, Tomb is nasty. It was already nasty before, but it was made even nastier in 0.16. Even is you use all the trick and things go welll, you can expect to be severely drained, rotted, perhaps mutated. Also, if you don't know Tomb and want to go unspoiled, frustration is guaranteed.

Third, to the gods you mentioned I'd like to add Makhleb. A super god in extended (and in any other part of the game).
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Zot Zealot

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 06:58

ajon wrote:Other than worship Kiku, TSO, Zin, or use necromutation, because they are not always viable, what are some tips on handling this part of the game?

Necromutation is a nice way to deal with torment in the extended and I used it in some games with hybrid chars like OgSk. (Yes, Ash helps with clarity and skill buffs.)

But it's a lev-8 spell and you need a lot of XP to get it running. It's worth thinking about other, easier ideas. Worshipping Makhleb - heal on kills - is a popular way. And here's a well-known post of evilmike about how to deal with torment.

Good luck!
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 08:16

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Magipi wrote:First, if you want to do extended, have an access to haste. I think extended was designed with an assumption that you haste yourself.

Has anyone done (I'd guess someone has) Formicid 15-runners? Apparently shafting doesn't work in Hell, which is a pity.
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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 08:47

Sprucery wrote:Has anyone done (I'd guess someone has) Formicid 15-runners? Apparently shafting doesn't work in Hell, which is a pity.

!lg * race=Fo win urune=15 s=name

Sequell wrote:92 games for * (race=Fo win urune=15):
5x Yermak, 3x EnterQ, 3x agentgt, 2x Hurricos, 2x 4tharraofdagon, 2x 78291, 2x Hybrid, 2x zarath9, 2x hackum, 2x Akrae, 2x DenpaOtoko, 2x orgal, rubinko, Komi, kraphead, Charly, dis, agentcrap, glosham, Sanddman, keymashgrqeeg, cnw, oryx, Aule, marisa, Oddbjorg, Yuof, hyperrchandra, kalpa, TheAlgebraist, InternetKraken, hyperinspector, EndlessMike, Sildraith, sandact6, pubby, Pr0man, sdynet, SchwerMuta, Floodkiller, Gingerlord, dosul, Dynast, Piu, petzl, irum, TakeFive, Kenreth, FUCKINGMURDERSHRIKE, bananaken, Spectrina, tls9540, Antem, rockit, nigilith, l0ser140, Roshnak, haldagan, herpmino, Kejsarherre, Namnharef, MungSong, IKeelU3, anon, Sixotanaka, ontoclasm, Happylisk, Guenter, starmstar, auch, DavidSid, Hermitkrabz, mopl, BirdoPrey, UglyThing

Shafting works in the hell's branches afaik.

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 09:41

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Shafting worked in hell during the tournament, I 15-runed a formic. Didn't think of shafting until two hells done I think, but it was very useful. Shaft down as long as it can't take you to the bottom floor, consider mapping the lower floors as you might be doing them more than once.
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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 10:21

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Hmm, well you've probably already got most of these points down, but...

- For hellfire, with its irresistible damage, you're going to need plenty of health (yeah, obvious, I know). So HP boosting gear is particularly helpful, and I usually try to have a good 15-20 levels or so in Fighting, regardless of character type, by the time I'm in extended. You can also boost yourself a bit by starting with a high-HP species.

- For torment, there are a few good options. rN+++ is quite helpful - it won't eliminate the effect, but it'll mitigate the damage. And an undead species won't have to worry about it. Your best option (unless you're using necromutation or undead) is just resistance, and minimizing time in the line-of-sight of tormenting monsters. Doors, fog, corners, etc. are your friends. Note that rN+++ will also eliminate draining as an issue.

- As a few others have said, smite-targeted abilities/spells, and/or ranged weapons (preferably with portal projectile) are great for taking out particularly dangerous threats the instant they appear. You want to hit the tormenting/hellfiring/mutating monsters before they can hit you.

- Pay attention to the brands you're using. Holy wrath is particularly useful, but particularly in the Hells, you're likely to find something resistant to your primary damage type if you're using flaming/freezing/venom/draining. So a backup weapon with an alternate brand, or something vorpal is a good thing.

- As with the the brands, make sure you diversify your spellset...though if you've made it to Extended, you've probably already done this. Being able to do only one flavor of damage can make put you in serious trouble in some areas.

- Always, always, always be ready, willing, and able to escape. So haste (potion, spell, or wand), blink (evoke or spell), cBlink if possible (scroll or spell), and teleportation (evoke, wand, or scroll)...maybe swiftness if you want a cheap alternative. With all the tormentors, hellfire-ers...mutators, etc., breaking line of sight is even more helpful than usual.

- Remember you don't need to kill everything, and especially with the Hells, it's usually smarter and safer to dive to the bottom instead of clearing every floor. (I'm especially bad about this...). Though if you find TSO's fortress in Pan, it's worth exploring - usually great for collecting cure mutation potions, among other things. Of course, if you're undead/demonspawn, welllll...you might want to avoid that floor.

- rMut for Pan (and to swap in the Hells), area-specific resistances to fire and cold, stasis for sphinxes and giant eyeballs, sustain abilities for the Hells and Tomb, regen for quick-healing between battles.

- Plenty of curing/heal wounds...though you'll probably use these for dealing with rot (and potentially confusion), not healing yourself. With enemies that can do that much damage at once, in-combat healing doesn't do nearly as much good as you might like.

- For Tomb in particular, silence works wonders for any character that's got decent weapon skills. It'll eliminate the torment and the smiting, and you'll mostly just have to worry about death curses.
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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 10:35

Aean wrote:- rMut for Pan (and to swap in the Hells), area-specific resistances to fire and cold, stasis for sphinxes and giant eyeballs, sustain abilities for the Hells and Tomb.

- rMut is nice in Pan, especially on mnoleg's level, but not mandatory.
- sustAb is useful in tomb and a bit useful in hells but again not mandatory if you have some potions of restAb.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 10:57

Turukano wrote:Shafting works in the hell's branches afaik.

rchandra wrote:Shafting worked in hell during the tournament

Oh, I mistook "doesn't work in Hell" as "doesn't work in Hell branches".

That definitely makes Hells a lot smoother for Fo.
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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 12:01

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

fog scrolls are really helpful, great tool for the extended (cloak of the Thief even better, unlimited source of the fog)
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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 13:57

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

ajon wrote:Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game?


Can't believe nobody said this yet. The best advice is arguably, "don't".

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 15:01

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

I always found training a lot of stealth helps you get through Pan/Hell unmolested. I also find Ash is pretty great for ninja-ing runes.
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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 15:06

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

While on this topic, are there any conditions or requirements that you feel need to be met before even thinking about the extended end game? Like reliable access to certain spells, resistances etc.?

Or do you make a character with the intent of doing extended?

Similarly, are there things you consider highly disadvantageous for it, be it race, spell school etc.
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 15:50

Re:

Turukano wrote:Necromutation is a nice way to deal with torment in the extended and I used it in some games with hybrid chars like OgSk.

The thought of getting necromut castable on an ogre... I don't even... those aptitudes... how do you get enough XP bring it online without already killing like a million tormentors?

Tornado deals with tormentors too, and it's cheaper and also deals with everything else.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 15:54

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

njvack wrote:Tornado deals with tormentors too, and it's cheaper and also deals with everything else.

Nice troll bro, with Og Int he'll likely die of starvation if he attempts to cast it!
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 16:01

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Wait, seriously? I've never tried to get a high-level spell online with terrible int. Is the int penalty to hunger that severe?

I... I'm not entirely sure what advice in this thread is a joke and which is real :/
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 16:36

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

njvack wrote:I... I'm not entirely sure what advice in this thread is a joke and which is real :/


All advice in this thread is non-jokingly real; some of it isn't necessarily GOOD advice. I'll leave that to others to sort out.
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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 16:46

njvack wrote:The thought of getting necromut castable on an ogre... I don't even... those aptitudes... how do you get enough XP bring it online without already killing like a million tormentors?

Well, with skill boost from Ash - two cursed pieces of jewellry - and wizardry it worked.

  Code:
Int 22 (23) God: Ashenzari [*****.]

W - cursed ring "Blicebow" {Wiz rF+ Acc+5 Dam+6, !d}

Necromancy is a strong school and Borgnjor is a good spell. An ogre in lichform is near fool-proof in extended.

  Code:
 - Level 21.7 Spellcasting
 - Level 16.7(18.9) Necromancy
 - Level 15.3(17.5) Transmutations

x - Borgnjor's Revivific  Necr           #######...   3%          8   
N - Necromutation         Trmt/Necr      #######...   4%          8   

Nevertheless the XP investment is (too) high imo.

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 17:17

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

njvack wrote:Wait, seriously? I've never tried to get a high-level spell online with terrible int. Is the int penalty to hunger that severe?

I... I'm not entirely sure what advice in this thread is a joke and which is real :/

The way I spam tornado in extended on such characters, my spriggans would have food problems despite having good int, if it weren't for the staff of energy and/or necromutation!
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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 18:52

njvack wrote:I... I'm not entirely sure what advice in this thread is a joke and which is real :/

I never joke about my work, 007.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 19:15

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Hunger cost of Necromutation is negated by Staff of Energy in extended. That's less true for combat spells, given that combat situations favor having something else equipped.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 20:03

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Necromutation is overkill and probably a bad idea for your character unless you're a very good caster who might want it for ziggurats. You don't need it for non-zigg extended.

I do however, very much like necromutation-lite: statue form. You'll still take some damage from torments, but with statue form + rN (and statue form gives you one itself) even from full health, torments end up being around 30-40 hp - they feel like getting hit with hellfire, which you're always going to be hit with anyways, and if you're low on health they stop hurting you, so I generally say a statue form character only has to worry about hellfire in extended. Hellfire is still tough to deal with of course, but having regeneration will go a long way towards helping with that.

People linked ogres with necromutation...Here's one with statue form instead: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 034745.txt I'm not entirely sure I'd recommend using GDA, I was mostly messing around. It does sort of work, although I probably should have had higher armor skill if I was really going to use it. Bonus points for having 419 hp in statue form. Try to imagine a situation where you would actually take 419 damage in a fight. Remember torment won't hurt much. And you're regenerating. And you have 40ac/30ev. Technically you are slowed but hey you still punch at ~8aut, that's only 1 aut slower than your GSC....

Edit: fun personal facts: It's been over a year since I've done extended with any god other than cheibriados, I ran a DDHe with TSO feb 2014, and since then I've 15 runed 8 Chei characters. I may have a problem. Maybe I should do another TSO run or something. Free healing!

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 20:37

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

njvack wrote:Wait, seriously?

No.
Turukano wrote:Necromancy is a strong school and Borgnjor is a good spell.

And Necromut stops Borg from working.
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 9th April 2015, 20:47

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

Sar wrote:No.

Heh. I finally looked it up; if learndb is right, L9 spell hunger is 1000-(Spellcasting*Int) nutrition. So even with 0 in one of those stats, hitting Tornado is only 1/5 of a meat ration.
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Post Friday, 10th April 2015, 03:58

Sar wrote:And Necromut stops Borg from working.

A ring of teleportation and an amulet of stasis can be useful in the game. The fact that they don't work together does not prevent me from keeping both of them in my inventory.

Same with borgnjor (strong spell) and necromut (convenient but XP expensive spell). They don't work together but this did not prevent me from keeping both. Also, regeneration spell is very welcome in spite of using necromut.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th April 2015, 07:20

Re: Advice and Approaches to Tackling the Extended End Game

I learned Nmut and Borg both in some games but in those games I pretty much learned Nmut for Ziggurat mummy floors.

(Also I remember I explored Pan in Nmut once, did stupid things, got low on HP and couldn't Borg. That was sad.)

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