Defenses for Gargoyle EE?

[Curio]

I started trying Gargoyle EE recently. In the offense department they are blast! But in defense are quite lacking. So what i'm doing wrong? I tried to invest in dodging but -2 apt makes it useless. I tried to invest in fighting but HP gain just isn't enough.
When I should stop training Spellcasting and Earth magic and start training defensive skill? And which skill is more efficient?

[Magipi]

You are a gargoyle with Stoneskin, how can you have bad defenses?

Can you show a dump?

[tasonir]

-2 aptitudes don't make training defenses useless. Assuming you are in light armor, it's still worth training. If you're putting all of your stat points into int, your dex won't be terribly high, so your EV isn't going to be amazing, but 20 ev is a lot better than 10. Always train fighting. Your AC will still be your main defense.

I'd use a light dragon armor like steam/mottled if you can, although that's not required.

[Curio]

You are a gargoyle with Stoneskin, how can you have bad defenses?

Can you show a dump?

Stoneskin grants 2 AC at low levels. doesn't help much.

Here's the last one.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.1 (tiles) character file.

2433 Karat the Thaumaturge (level 9, 0/51 HPs)
             Began as a Gargoyle Earth Elementalist on Apr 8, 2015.
             Was a Priest of Sif Muna.
             Slain by a wolf spider (13 damage)
             ... on level 8 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:22:30 (7134 turns).

Karat the Thaumaturge (Gargoyle Earth Elementalist) Turns: 7134, Time: 00:22:30

Health: 0/51       AC: 18    Str: 13    XL:     9   Next: 48%
Magic:  11/26      EV: 12    Int: 18    God:    Sif Muna [***...]
Gold:   351        SH:  0    Dex: 10    Spells: 6 memorised, 8 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     o - +2 short sword (protect)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     A - +0 robe (curse)
rNeg   + + .     SustAb   .     (no shield)
rPois  ?         Gourm    .     (no helmet)
rElec  +         Spirit   .     (no cloak)
rCorr  .         Warding  .     k - +1 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   .     E - +0 pair of boots
MR     .....                    (no amulet)
Stlth  ++........               D - ring of see invisible
                                t - ring of positive energy

@: stone skin, flying, very slightly contaminated, not resistant to hostile
enchantments, unstealthy
A: negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +5
a: Channel Energy, Forget Spell, Renounce Religion


You were on level 8 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Sif Muna.
Sif Muna was most pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 9 of its levels.

You collected 351 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - a +1 dagger
 e - a +2 dagger of holy wrath
 o - a +2 short sword of protection (weapon)
Missiles
 b - 65 stones (quivered)
Armour
 c - a +0 robe
 k - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 s - a +1 pair of gloves
 A - a cursed +0 robe (worn)
 E - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Jewellery
 t - a ring of positive energy (left hand)
 u - an uncursed ring of protection from cold {unknown}
 w - an uncursed ring of ice {unknown}
 D - a ring of see invisible (right hand)
 F - an uncursed ring of positive energy
Magical devices
 r - a wand of digging (12)
 C - a wand of paralysis (11)
 H - a wand of enslavement (10)
Scrolls
 g - 3 scrolls of recharging
 l - a scroll of immolation
 m - a scroll of fog {unknown}
 y - a scroll of enchant armour
 B - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 J - a scroll of blinking {unknown}
Potions
 h - a potion of flight
 i - a potion of agility
 n - 2 potions of cure mutation
 p - 2 potions of curing {unknown}
 q - 2 potions of poison
 z - a potion of ambrosia {unknown}
 G - a potion of invisibility {unknown}
 K - a potion of haste {unknown}
 M - a potion of brilliance {unknown}
Books
 I - a book of Control   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Control Teleport             Charms/Translocation          4
    b - Control Undead               Necromancy                    4
    c - Enslavement                  Hexes                         4
    d - Metabolic Englaciation       Hexes/Ice                     5
    e - Mass Confusion               Hexes                         6
Comestibles
 a - 7 bread rations
 f - 2 meat rations
 j - 5 fruits
 v - a slice of pizza
 x - 2 beef jerkies
 L - 4 chunks of flesh


   Skills:
 * Level 3,3 Fighting
 + Level 2,0 Dodging
 - Level 2,1 Stealth
 + Level 9,2 Spellcasting
 - Level 3,0 Conjurations
 - Level 1,0 Transmutations
 - Level 8,1 Earth Magic


You had 8 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sandblast             Erth           #####.       1%          1    None
b - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      ####..       2%          3    None
c - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      ###.....     1%          2    None
d - Passwall              Trmt/Erth      ###.......   4%          3    None
e - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #####.....   12%         5    #####..
f - Petrify               Trmt/Erth      ###.....     17%         4    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (8/15)             Temple (1/1) D:5         
  Lair: D:8-11     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:7 [


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
You are immune to poison.
Your stone body is very resilient (AC +5).
You resist negative energy.
You are resistant to electric shocks.
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are immune to rotting.


Message History

Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Sandblast
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - wolf spider
Aim: a wolf spider (moderately wounded, clinging)
The blast of sand hits the wolf spider.
The wolf spider is heavily wounded.
The wolf spider hits you! The wolf spider bites you!
Unknown command.
It was a potion of cure mutation. It has a very clean taste. The wolf spider hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The wolf spider barely misses you. The wolf spider misses you.
The wolf spider bites you but does no damage.
Unknown command.
It was a potion of poison. You feel slightly nauseous. The wolf spider barely misses you.
The wolf spider misses you.
Unknown command.
It was a potion of flight.
You feel very buoyant.
You fly up into the air. The wolf spider hits you!
You die...

        ...
        #.#
        #.#
        #.#
   #    #.#
   #.####.#
   #....#.#
..##....#.#######
........'@s.>...#.#.
........#^)?........
 .#.....#<#####...#.
 ...[...#(#      c#
 ...($###.#
  ..)#  #.#
   .#   #.#
        #.#
        #.#
        ..#
        ..#


You could see a wolf spider.

Vanquished Creatures
  A wyvern (D:8)
  A hungry ghost (D:7)
  An orc warrior (D:6)
  4 ogres
  A phantom (D:7)
  2 black bears (D:7)
  A necrophage (D:6)
  3 centaurs
  3 giant frogs
  A scorpion (D:7)
  4 wights (D:7)
  A quasit (D:7)
  3 crimson imps
  A goliath beetle (D:7)
  A hound (D:6)
  A giant frog skeleton (D:7)
  3 orc priests
  2 orc wizards
  3 worker ants
  Jessica (D:2)
  3 gnolls (D:7)
  9 adders
  A worm (D:4)
  An adder skeleton (D:6)
  2 oozes
  18 orcs
  2 bat skeletons (D:6)
  3 giant cockroaches
  9 goblins
  15 hobgoblins
  7 jackals
  2 quokkas
  A ball python (D:4)
  13 bats
  3 giant geckos
  2 giant newts (D:1)
  10 kobolds
  A quokka zombie (D:5)
  13 rats
153 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  Ijyb (D:7)
1 creature vanquished.

Grand Total: 154 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Karat, the Gargoyle Earth Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 3/3
     2 | D:1      | Noticed a naga
     4 | D:1      | Noticed a troll
     4 | D:1      | Noticed a felid
     6 | D:1      | Noticed a vampire
     6 | D:1      | Noticed a demigod
     8 | D:1      | Noticed a tengu
    10 | D:1      | Noticed a centaur
    10 | D:1      | Noticed a human
    12 | D:1      | Noticed a merfolk
    12 | D:1      | Noticed a spriggan
    14 | D:1      | Noticed a minotaur
    14 | D:1      | Noticed a formicid
    16 | D:1      | Noticed a dwarf
    18 | D:1      | Noticed a demonspawn
    20 | D:1      | Noticed a draconian
    20 | D:1      | Noticed an elf
    22 | D:1      | Noticed an ogre
    24 | D:1      | Noticed a vine stalker
    24 | D:1      | Noticed an octopode
    26 | D:1      | Noticed a ghoul
    26 | D:1      | Noticed a gargoyle
   218 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Earth Magic
   232 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 0/4
   880 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 4/6
  1098 | D:2      | Noticed Jessica
  1102 | D:2      | Killed Jessica
  1102 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
  1102 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 7/24 MP: 5/8
  1445 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Stoneskin
  1660 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Transmutations
  1986 | D:3      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  1986 | D:3      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  1986 | D:3      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  1989 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 6/11
  1991 | D:3      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  2293 | D:3      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  2924 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Earth Magic
  3089 | D:4      | Got a translucent hand crossbow
  3090 | D:4      | Identified the cursed -2 hand crossbow "Smagiumi" {elec, +Inv rElec rC+ Int+2} (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
  3113 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Stone Arrow
  3117 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Passwall
  3448 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 28/32 MP: 8/15
  3824 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4213 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4222 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4260 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Sif Muna the Loreminder
  4364 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Earth Magic
  4364 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 31/36 MP: 12/18
  4488 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  4770 | D:6      | Acquired Sif Muna's first power
  4865 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
  4897 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 13/22
  5202 | D:6      | Acquired Sif Muna's second power
  5568 | D:7      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  5570 | D:7      | Noticed an angel
  5570 | D:7      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5627 | D:7      | Learned a level 5 spell: Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
  5632 | D:7      | Learned a level 4 spell: Petrify
  5652 | D:6      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  5741 | D:7      | Noticed Ijyb
  5787 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
  5848 | D:7      | Killed Ijyb
  5879 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  5917 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 46/48 MP: 11/25
  6800 | D:7      | Found Ixivievi's Armour Shop.
  7097 | D:8      | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
  7127 | D:8      | Noticed a wolf spider
  7134 | D:8      | Slain by a wolf spider


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |    13 |    11 |       ||    24
       Short sword       |       |    11 |       ||    11
Throw: Stone             |       |     1 |       ||     1
 Cast: Sandblast         |    40 |   126 |    87 ||   253
       Stoneskin         |       |     5 |     3 ||     8
       Stone Arrow       |       |       |    56 ||    56
       Passwall          |       |       |     1 ||     1
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |     1 ||     1
Invok: Channel Energy    |       |       |     7 ||     7
  Use: Scroll            |       |    11 |     1 ||    12
       Potion            |       |       |     3 ||     3
  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |    10 |     9 ||    20
       Royal jelly       |       |       |     1 ||     1


-2 aptitudes don't make training defenses useless. Assuming you are in light armor, it's still worth training. If you're putting all of your stat points into int, your dex won't be terribly high, so your EV isn't going to be amazing, but 20 ev is a lot better than 10. Always train fighting. Your AC will still be your main defense.

I'd use a light dragon armor like steam/mottled if you can, although that's not required.

when do i start training fighting/dodging?

[MainiacJoe]

when do i start training fighting/dodging?

Perhaps when you are easily killing nearly everything in sight? Then turn off your offense and turn on your defenses until you start having trouble killing things again, and switch back. During that phase when you are building up your offense at the expense of your defense, and you encounter something dangerous, avoid it if at all possible. I think I am still a largely unsuccessful player because I still feel a need to kill everything I meet despite lots of better players urging everyone that they don't need to do that. I disengage and then immediately try to come back and kill it under better positioning or use a consumable for buffing, when i should simply stay disengaged and come back later when I'm stronger.

[Lacuenta]

You are a gargoyle with Stoneskin, how can you have bad defenses?

Can you show a dump?

Stoneskin grants 2 AC at low levels. doesn't help much.

Here's the last one.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.1 (tiles) character file.

2433 Karat the Thaumaturge (level 9, 0/51 HPs)
             Began as a Gargoyle Earth Elementalist on Apr 8, 2015.
             Was a Priest of Sif Muna.
             Slain by a wolf spider (13 damage)
             ... on level 8 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:22:30 (7134 turns).

Karat the Thaumaturge (Gargoyle Earth Elementalist) Turns: 7134, Time: 00:22:30

Health: 0/51       AC: 18    Str: 13    XL:     9   Next: 48%
Magic:  11/26      EV: 12    Int: 18    God:    Sif Muna [***...]
Gold:   351        SH:  0    Dex: 10    Spells: 6 memorised, 8 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     o - +2 short sword (protect)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     A - +0 robe (curse)
rNeg   + + .     SustAb   .     (no shield)
rPois  ?         Gourm    .     (no helmet)
rElec  +         Spirit   .     (no cloak)
rCorr  .         Warding  .     k - +1 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   .     E - +0 pair of boots
MR     .....                    (no amulet)
Stlth  ++........               D - ring of see invisible
                                t - ring of positive energy

@: stone skin, flying, very slightly contaminated, not resistant to hostile
enchantments, unstealthy
A: negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +5
a: Channel Energy, Forget Spell, Renounce Religion


You were on level 8 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Sif Muna.
Sif Muna was most pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 9 of its levels.

You collected 351 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - a +1 dagger
 e - a +2 dagger of holy wrath
 o - a +2 short sword of protection (weapon)
Missiles
 b - 65 stones (quivered)
Armour
 c - a +0 robe
 k - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 s - a +1 pair of gloves
 A - a cursed +0 robe (worn)
 E - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Jewellery
 t - a ring of positive energy (left hand)
 u - an uncursed ring of protection from cold {unknown}
 w - an uncursed ring of ice {unknown}
 D - a ring of see invisible (right hand)
 F - an uncursed ring of positive energy
Magical devices
 r - a wand of digging (12)
 C - a wand of paralysis (11)
 H - a wand of enslavement (10)
Scrolls
 g - 3 scrolls of recharging
 l - a scroll of immolation
 m - a scroll of fog {unknown}
 y - a scroll of enchant armour
 B - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 J - a scroll of blinking {unknown}
Potions
 h - a potion of flight
 i - a potion of agility
 n - 2 potions of cure mutation
 p - 2 potions of curing {unknown}
 q - 2 potions of poison
 z - a potion of ambrosia {unknown}
 G - a potion of invisibility {unknown}
 K - a potion of haste {unknown}
 M - a potion of brilliance {unknown}
Books
 I - a book of Control   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Control Teleport             Charms/Translocation          4
    b - Control Undead               Necromancy                    4
    c - Enslavement                  Hexes                         4
    d - Metabolic Englaciation       Hexes/Ice                     5
    e - Mass Confusion               Hexes                         6
Comestibles
 a - 7 bread rations
 f - 2 meat rations
 j - 5 fruits
 v - a slice of pizza
 x - 2 beef jerkies
 L - 4 chunks of flesh


   Skills:
 * Level 3,3 Fighting
 + Level 2,0 Dodging
 - Level 2,1 Stealth
 + Level 9,2 Spellcasting
 - Level 3,0 Conjurations
 - Level 1,0 Transmutations
 - Level 8,1 Earth Magic


You had 8 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sandblast             Erth           #####.       1%          1    None
b - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      ####..       2%          3    None
c - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      ###.....     1%          2    None
d - Passwall              Trmt/Erth      ###.......   4%          3    None
e - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #####.....   12%         5    #####..
f - Petrify               Trmt/Erth      ###.....     17%         4    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (8/15)             Temple (1/1) D:5         
  Lair: D:8-11     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:7 [


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
You are immune to poison.
Your stone body is very resilient (AC +5).
You resist negative energy.
You are resistant to electric shocks.
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are immune to rotting.


Message History

Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Sandblast
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - wolf spider
Aim: a wolf spider (moderately wounded, clinging)
The blast of sand hits the wolf spider.
The wolf spider is heavily wounded.
The wolf spider hits you! The wolf spider bites you!
Unknown command.
It was a potion of cure mutation. It has a very clean taste. The wolf spider hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The wolf spider barely misses you. The wolf spider misses you.
The wolf spider bites you but does no damage.
Unknown command.
It was a potion of poison. You feel slightly nauseous. The wolf spider barely misses you.
The wolf spider misses you.
Unknown command.
It was a potion of flight.
You feel very buoyant.
You fly up into the air. The wolf spider hits you!
You die...

        ...
        #.#
        #.#
        #.#
   #    #.#
   #.####.#
   #....#.#
..##....#.#######
........'@s.>...#.#.
........#^)?........
 .#.....#<#####...#.
 ...[...#(#      c#
 ...($###.#
  ..)#  #.#
   .#   #.#
        #.#
        #.#
        ..#
        ..#


You could see a wolf spider.

Vanquished Creatures
  A wyvern (D:8)
  A hungry ghost (D:7)
  An orc warrior (D:6)
  4 ogres
  A phantom (D:7)
  2 black bears (D:7)
  A necrophage (D:6)
  3 centaurs
  3 giant frogs
  A scorpion (D:7)
  4 wights (D:7)
  A quasit (D:7)
  3 crimson imps
  A goliath beetle (D:7)
  A hound (D:6)
  A giant frog skeleton (D:7)
  3 orc priests
  2 orc wizards
  3 worker ants
  Jessica (D:2)
  3 gnolls (D:7)
  9 adders
  A worm (D:4)
  An adder skeleton (D:6)
  2 oozes
  18 orcs
  2 bat skeletons (D:6)
  3 giant cockroaches
  9 goblins
  15 hobgoblins
  7 jackals
  2 quokkas
  A ball python (D:4)
  13 bats
  3 giant geckos
  2 giant newts (D:1)
  10 kobolds
  A quokka zombie (D:5)
  13 rats
153 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  Ijyb (D:7)
1 creature vanquished.

Grand Total: 154 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Karat, the Gargoyle Earth Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 3/3
     2 | D:1      | Noticed a naga
     4 | D:1      | Noticed a troll
     4 | D:1      | Noticed a felid
     6 | D:1      | Noticed a vampire
     6 | D:1      | Noticed a demigod
     8 | D:1      | Noticed a tengu
    10 | D:1      | Noticed a centaur
    10 | D:1      | Noticed a human
    12 | D:1      | Noticed a merfolk
    12 | D:1      | Noticed a spriggan
    14 | D:1      | Noticed a minotaur
    14 | D:1      | Noticed a formicid
    16 | D:1      | Noticed a dwarf
    18 | D:1      | Noticed a demonspawn
    20 | D:1      | Noticed a draconian
    20 | D:1      | Noticed an elf
    22 | D:1      | Noticed an ogre
    24 | D:1      | Noticed a vine stalker
    24 | D:1      | Noticed an octopode
    26 | D:1      | Noticed a ghoul
    26 | D:1      | Noticed a gargoyle
   218 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Earth Magic
   232 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 0/4
   880 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 4/6
  1098 | D:2      | Noticed Jessica
  1102 | D:2      | Killed Jessica
  1102 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
  1102 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 7/24 MP: 5/8
  1445 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Stoneskin
  1660 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Transmutations
  1986 | D:3      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  1986 | D:3      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  1986 | D:3      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  1989 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 6/11
  1991 | D:3      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  2293 | D:3      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  2924 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Earth Magic
  3089 | D:4      | Got a translucent hand crossbow
  3090 | D:4      | Identified the cursed -2 hand crossbow "Smagiumi" {elec, +Inv rElec rC+ Int+2} (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
  3113 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Stone Arrow
  3117 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Passwall
  3448 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 28/32 MP: 8/15
  3824 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4213 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4222 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4260 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Sif Muna the Loreminder
  4364 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Earth Magic
  4364 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 31/36 MP: 12/18
  4488 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  4770 | D:6      | Acquired Sif Muna's first power
  4865 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
  4897 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 13/22
  5202 | D:6      | Acquired Sif Muna's second power
  5568 | D:7      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  5570 | D:7      | Noticed an angel
  5570 | D:7      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5627 | D:7      | Learned a level 5 spell: Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
  5632 | D:7      | Learned a level 4 spell: Petrify
  5652 | D:6      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  5741 | D:7      | Noticed Ijyb
  5787 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
  5848 | D:7      | Killed Ijyb
  5879 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  5917 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 46/48 MP: 11/25
  6800 | D:7      | Found Ixivievi's Armour Shop.
  7097 | D:8      | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
  7127 | D:8      | Noticed a wolf spider
  7134 | D:8      | Slain by a wolf spider


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |    13 |    11 |       ||    24
       Short sword       |       |    11 |       ||    11
Throw: Stone             |       |     1 |       ||     1
 Cast: Sandblast         |    40 |   126 |    87 ||   253
       Stoneskin         |       |     5 |     3 ||     8
       Stone Arrow       |       |       |    56 ||    56
       Passwall          |       |       |     1 ||     1
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |     1 ||     1
Invok: Channel Energy    |       |       |     7 ||     7
  Use: Scroll            |       |    11 |     1 ||    12
       Potion            |       |       |     3 ||     3
  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |    10 |     9 ||    20
       Royal jelly       |       |       |     1 ||     1


-2 aptitudes don't make training defenses useless. Assuming you are in light armor, it's still worth training. If you're putting all of your stat points into int, your dex won't be terribly high, so your EV isn't going to be amazing, but 20 ev is a lot better than 10. Always train fighting. Your AC will still be your main defense.

I'd use a light dragon armor like steam/mottled if you can, although that's not required.

when do i start training fighting/dodging?

Why didn't you read a scroll of tele instead of quaffing unidentified potions?

[Magipi]

The main problem here was the wolf spider. I don't have any idea how it can spawn on D:8, but it's surely extremely out-of-depht here. You had no chance to win that fight, I guess.

Other than that, next time be sure that spellcasting isn't your highest skill. Spellcasting is terribly inefficient in improving spellpower and spell success. If you want to improve your spells, train the magic schools (in this case, Tmut & Earth) until the spell success is comfortably low (Edit: I mean high). Then train defenses (in this case, dodging first, then fighting).

[nago]

when do i start training fighting/dodging?

The common advice is "train killdude skills until you kill things reliably, then defensive skill until you're tanky enough against normal critters, then repeat".

While -2 isn't a very bad apt for dodging, GrEE start with 10 dex, which means you'll get terrible EV returns even with intensive training unless putting most of stat point during level up into dex.
Considering gargoyle can easily get very high AC my advice is to not train it, at least not initially, and wear a ring mail / some dragon armour if available early and just train armour. You may train dodging if you get some good gear with +dex bonus attached.
Generally speaking I prefer to train fighting over dodging/armour, because it grants both defence and offence , so it gives a bigger boost to char's strength than the other two skills - I usually train fighting and dodging at same time, focusing on the first (so 66% exp to it and 33% to other).

More in details, considering a GrEE you may choose to start training fighting right after getting stone arrow to decent power (as it is a spell good enough to kill things until lair), alternating (or training both) it and earth magic until getting LRD at good spellpower (after that, you have enough spell at least until Vaults, so you should train other skill than earth magic).

And finally wolf spider is a terrible enemy to face on D:8... you should have just teleported away light others said

[tasonir]

With only 10 dex you may want to hold off on training dodging until a bit later on, as nago said. If you want a bit better defense at the cost of spellpower some stat points into dex would help with that, but you probably want to keep at least 6 or all 9 into int, give or take. AC will have to carry you through the early game, and then later on you can pick up cheap levels of fighting/dodging.

My own GrEE is so outdated at this point it's kind of funny to look at: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 190208.txt He used statue form! Not sure why, I probably didn't realize it melded natural AC? or maybe it didn't back then? I don't know. Hey look, I cleared the forest! And I have 27 dodging skill (25 dex, due to chei). I don't think it's any real help to study that, but I do find it good for comedic purposes.

[Magipi]

The first version of gargoyles had no bonus AC, they had some weird self-petrify effect instead. This seems to be one of those.

[ajon]

seems its already been said, but wear some ring mail. You have decent strength for a caster with gargoyle. You could probably even work to a heavier armour as the game progresses and you get more skill/str.

[tasonir]

The first version of gargoyles had no bonus AC, they had some weird self-petrify effect instead. This seems to be one of those.

Ah wow, it's been so long I completely forgot about this, you're right. I also specifically remember being annoyed that this character started with +2 unarmed aptitude and it was nerfed to +1 while I was playing. And now it's all the way down to 0...poor gargoyles.

[TwoLeggedMammal]

To expound on what Magpi said about overtraining Spellcasting, here's what it does:

- Increases spellpower/accuracy of spells at a rate of 1/4 that of a single school or 1/2 that for a dual school spell
- Increases mp pool, about 1/2-1 mp per point early game
- Decreases spell hunger (multiplied by int)
- Increases spell memorization capacity

All of those are nice things, but generally you don't need it early on as much as you do the spell school that helps you kill things. Additionally spellcasting takes more experience per level than other schools as a balancing thing (30 or 50 percent more)?

So generally i get spellcasting when it's cheap, when it's 4-5 levels lower than my main schools. You don't need to memorize that many spells early, the mp difference is small and hunger is not as dangerous as monsters.

And the extra exp can go to help your defense or your offense, either way keeping you safer.

Fwiw, i find Gargoyles quite tanky for casters with the bonus armor and GDR even in robes. I would go heavier offense (still getting some fighting and dodging), and then avoiding dangerous situations and utilizing more consumables could get you the rest of the way to a successful game.

[dowan]

What I have been doing generally, and specifically on my 3 rune winning gargoyle EE, is to turn on manual skilling, and turn on fighting, weapon skill, dodging, and magic skill(s).

Never turn off fighting or dodging.
Turn weapon skill and magic skill(s) off if you feel they're high enough for the time being, or at min-delay for the weapon. Turn on other skills as you need them. At some point, it'll be worthwhile to get some armor skill, once you're in ring mail or better and your other skills are in decent shape.

Seriously, this approach seems to work just fine on most characters, and fractional skill still helps, so it's no weaker than individually training those skills. Much less hassle than turning skills on and off 1 at a time.

If at some point I really want to get a spell online or something, I might turn everything else off, but that's only usually toward the end of the game, trying to get haste or cblink or some such online.

[Sprucery]

Additionally spellcasting takes more experience per level than other schools as a balancing thing (30 or 50 percent more)?

This hasn't been true for a long time. Training spellcasting takes as much experience as any other skill at the same level and with the same aptitude.

[Curio]

Thanks for the advice, guys.
Won my first GrEE!