UC Trolls: Lignification for Hydras?

[MainiacJoe]

I noticed that tree form increases UC damage even above troll claws and increases AC and GDR. Not only that, but I confirmed in wizard mode that it melds claws, so you are punching not slicing and the number of heads does not grow. I think I can trust a dumb hydra to stay in melee range until dead instead of backing away to heal up, so this sounds attractive.

My question, then, is to help me understand the full ramifications of immobility. I know I want to make sure I'm alone with the hydra, and especially safe from ranged attackers. What other dangers are lurking for me? My only experience with lignification is quaff-IDing in a safe place, and I don't quaff-ID anymore so it's been a while.

[nago]

Or just use large rocks to kill hydra!

[dowan]

You can't drink potions or teleport. That's a biggie. But, if you can lure the hydras somewhere safe, it's probably not a bad use of lig potions.

Still, don't forget the #1 method of killing hydras with a troll: Large rocks.

Fakedit: Ninjad....

[Turukano]

I think I can trust a dumb hydra to stay in melee range until dead instead of backing away to heal up

I think so too - but can you trust devs not to read / think about / change this?

[Bloax]

You can't drink potions

That hasn't been the case for quite a while.

[dowan]

Oh, shows how often I use potions of lig then...

The only time i really use them is against early bee packs, and the last time I did that I couldn't cure the poison. The HP boost can also help you weather being fatally poisoned, which I discovered through desperate quaff ID when poisoned. I suppose a berserk potion could accomplish the same thing.

[Bloax]

I suppose a berserk potion could accomplish the same thing.

Not really, since the HP runs out very fast if you're not fighting things - which usually sinks your HP more than berserk helps.
unless of course the poison is going to reduce you to 0 or -1 hp, in which case it'll probably help you get out of that

[dowan]

Well, while berserked your HP pool will be larger, the poison will take from your inflated HP, then when berserk runs out, it'll deflate back down, so in the process, the damage you took while berserk will be deflated. I don't know how many HPs this will save you, but early in the game a few HPs may be all you need to survive.

I admit, I don't totally know how the berserk HP increase works, I assume it's propotional to current HP vs Max HP, meaning chugging a zerk pot at 1 hp isn't likely to give any more HP, and drinking it at 50 HP will probably give quite a bit more.

[MainiacJoe]

Or just use large rocks to kill hydra!

I have 9 of them on my current TrMo^Qaz, and I find I'm using all of them and finishing the hydra off with tomahawks (Throwing 9.6). I also don't use a large rock when the hydra is standing in deep water. I've been quite disappointed with the piety cost of Qazlal's abilities, even just two Upheavals seem to cost me a star, and these do not always kill the hydra anyway (Invocations 13.3). I have Swamp in this game and am concerned about the possibility of the Lernaean Hydra.

[nilsbloodaxe]

Or just use large rocks to kill hydra!

I have 9 of them on my current TrMo^Qaz, and I find I'm using all of them and finishing the hydra off with tomahawks (Throwing 9.6). I also don't use a large rock when the hydra is standing in deep water. I've been quite disappointed with the piety cost of Qazlal's abilities, even just two Upheavals seem to cost me a star, and these do not always kill the hydra anyway (Invocations 13.3). I have Swamp in this game and am concerned about the possibility of the Lernaean Hydra.

All you need to do is not go to Swamp:5 and go to Vaults first and get a few rocks from cyclops and stone giants, then Learny is easy.

[MainiacJoe]

All you need to do is not go to Swamp:5 and go to Vaults first and get a few rocks from cyclops and stone giants, then Learny is easy.

I do have the rune from Spider, so I could do this.

[dowan]

The nice thing about the lernaean hydra is that you don't actually have to kill it to get the rune. It also cannot see invisible.

That said, it is pretty satisfying to kill that stupid hydra.

On my troll 3 rune winner, I just used a 0 skill flaming scimitar for hydras in the swamp, because I didn't get any large rocks. Obviously you need decent AC for this to be a viable strategy, but it does work. I just bypassed Learny with that character.

[MainiacJoe]

I just bypassed Learny with that character.

I'd appreciate some how-to on this, since I've considered it and have even practiced various methods on mundane hydra in Swamp. I wasn't going to burn a !Haste or !Flight potion on a practice session, but it seems that one really does need those to pull it off. What I attempted was to leave it at edge of sight and lead it to an out-of-the-way upstair, then go up and come down elsewhere. But without the buffs, I couldn't outrun the hydra because of its water speed.

I realize too that Learny doesn't appear in every Swamp 5.

[dowan]

There are a few approaches, one obvious one is as you mentioned, haste and flight, grab the rune, then teleport. Or haste and flight to get Learny away from the rune vault, then go up one stair, down another, then grab the unguarded rune. Or that same idea, but instead of going up a stairway, you teleport.

Another option is invis, grab rune, teleport.

Yeah, you'll need to use some consumables either way, but this is the sort of thing they're for. Trying to avoid every hydra in swamp isn't going to work, as you mentioned.

Of course, you've got the other obvious option of trying to nuke him out of existence with Qaz invocations, or smash him with rocks while kiting him through your qaz clouds, or summon some elementals, or some combination of these things.

I'd probably just try to ditch him somewhere on the level with haste and flight, then come back around and grab the rune. Assuming he does exist in your swamp 5 of course.

[tasonir]

Learnean is fairly easy to kill with a couple of slouches to soften him up and then 2-3 good punches, imho.

  Code:

 10502 | Swamp:5  | Noticed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra
 10509 | Swamp:5  | Killed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra

From a failed speedrun here: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 065229.txt

I think people overestimate how much damage 27 heads can really do. Obviously you need decent AC, but you don't need 50 ac. This character was only around 20 ac, but also had 30 ev, which helps. More importantly you want to have strong enough melee to kill it in 2-3 hits, as you don't want the fight to drag on. Hence the slouches/wands/rocks to soften it up, it doesn't have that much health. Obviously if you can kill it entirely at range, that's safer, and having 30 ac is <much> better than 20, but if your ranged attack costs a lot of piety, a couple punches in melee usually work just fine.

You could do this with troll claws too, as the head count is capped at either 28 or 29, so there's no way to really increase his head count meaningfully. It'd just depend on if you can get your troll to 20+ ac by this point. I was using a swamp dragon hide I found in swamp itself, but I also had a pretty lucky +5 ac ring, as +0 swamp isn't incredible ac alone.

Maybe I'm just becoming too much of a risk taker

[dowan]

Does slouch do more damage to hydras in water, since their move speed is so much faster?

[XuaXua]

If you can cast spells, "Ice Form" is a very good option for Unarmed to kill hydras.

[Bloax]

Learnean is fairly easy to kill with a couple of slouches to soften him up and then 2-3 good punches, imho.

You don't even have to melee it, just use wands on it (cold/draining work well) when it comes into view.
Then when it gets adjacent (or 2 tiles from you in water, just to be safe) use temporal distortion to instantly move it away from you (if it's still adjacent/2 tiles from you in water, use it again)
We can then continue zapping those wands at it until you have to repeat the process.
If you run out of charges, just slouch it dead. Done.

[daggaz]

You can also save a few charges by only 'mostly' killing it with wands, and then finishing the job with your bare hands. Just got to make sure that you damage it enough at first that you dont end up healing it back up in melee.

[and into]

I really cannot think of any situation in which I would want to fight Lernaean H. in melee. I mean, even if you have so much AC it isn't a problem, there's still the message spam. Avoid + ninja the rune, if you cannot safely and easily kill at range.

[Bloax]

  Code:

<Sequell> 11/12. [2015-03-26 21:07:39] [ac=26;ev=36] BLOAX the Warrior (L18 MiHu of Cheibriados) killed the 26-headed Lernaean hydra on turn 33394. (Swamp:5)
<Sequell> 10/12. [2015-03-20 22:05:20] [ac=27;ev=40] BLOAX the Black Belt (L15 TeMo of Cheibriados) killed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra on turn 18339. (Swamp:5)
<Sequell> 9/12. [2015-03-15 20:16:24] [ac=35;ev=30] BLOAX the Brawler (L14 MiMo of Cheibriados) killed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra on turn 14408. (Swamp:5)

If your defenses look like this in swamp and you have a source of invisibility (potions are best) then you can somewhat safely kick Lerny's ass.
Otherwise just avoid it or do whatever the hell I detailed in my previous post.

[bcadren]

I remember the first time I killed the Lernaean Hydra as a Troll. I was a TrTm of Sif. I cast Statue Form, Stoneskin, Cond Shield, Phase Shift, Ignite Poison (making him stand in a cloud of flame), and evoked an Amulet of Berserk. Miscast protection + Spells with a 50% fail rate == effective. [I never did when a TrTm of Sif though; Later I realized TrTm^Chei is better; still need something (IE Lignification, Statue Form, etc.) to melee TLH [Ice Form technically works, but Ice Form defenses are SHIT without Ozocubu's Armour and just using Ice Form without Ozo's Armour is probably suicide.]

[daggaz]

Lerny dies pretty quickly and easily in melee, assuming you are built for that sort of thing.. its not like its a big deal. I wouldn't even put him in the top twenty of dangerous uniques.