Which Weapon Type is Best?

[bcadren]

Assume you are starting as a Hu, Ds, or Mu; Fi or Gl. Which of the melee weapon types is actually 'best' with these even apts. Also, do you default to 1H w/ Shield or 2H w/o Shield. [Trying to normalize what's in general best for a melee character without huge Apt. Differences.]

Personally I tend to gravitate to Polearms; because of the usefulness of Reaching; but I can understand how other things could be more appealing; and I go for shields because of the possibility for additional resists more than thinking SH does much good. Shield of Resistance is pretty awesome. DTrident/Trishula and Shield.

[njvack]

Depends on what you mean by "best." Reaching is really strong, but I think it's kind of irritating. Top-tier maces are readily available from very early in the game. You can get to mindelay with a lajatang with a pretty low skill investment, which means you have XP to invest in other other areas. An elec qblade is pretty killer. Probably 2H melee is strictly stronger, but a great 1H weapon and/or shield can tip that. Ego shields are pretty rare (resistance vanishingly so), but SH itself is not bad. There's stuff it doesn't block, but a lot of stuff it does.

The best weapon is one you have now, and have decent skill in.

You could wizmode stuff up and use fsim to see all the numbers, but really, those calculations aren't very informative. So much of crawl is deciding what to do given your current character and what the dungeon is offering you.

Ultimately, the original question doesn't mean as much as you think, I suspect. It's kind of a fun discussion to have but hearing "M&F" won't actually help you win.

[jejorda2]

I train fighting until I find a fast weapon with an additive brand or a big weapon with a multiplicative brand or something highly enchanted. I use a dagger until then.

If I find a shield with a resistance or a top-tier one-handed weapon of my class before I find a two-handed weapon of my class with a brand, I use shields.

The weapon class doesn't matter until I've trained a weapon skill past 12 or so.

[mps]

I think the argument that polearms are the best is pretty strong, in the sense that they offer the best tactical options. For example polearm + spectral weapon is pretty good (more so than just weapon + spectral weapon, which is obviously also pretty good).

Lately, I like long blades because the cross training with short blades makes good branded and/or enchanted weapons with acceptable weapon skill much more available in the early game. In particular, daggers of venom appear pretty often, are better than a starting long blade until well into lair where you can expect to pick up a decent long blade, and poisoning things and running is a pretty safe way to get to lair. Short blades with draining and electrocution show up here and there too and between these three you have a pretty good chance of a quality early game weapon. Short blades also have good accuracy which seems to make more of a difference in the early dungeon. Skilling only long blades, you don't run into problems of wasted investment in a weapon you don't want to use in the long run.

If you go Gl, quarterstaff is a great start. Good damage, accuracy, and attack speed, but finding an upgrade is hit or miss.

[Sandman25]

I train fighting until I find a fast weapon with an additive brand or a big weapon with a multiplicative brand or something highly enchanted. I use a dagger until then.

How is that? I tried VpAr recently, even with short sword it was too bad so I started training SBl after reaching Fighting 3+. Or do you mean as book background?

[jejorda2]

I mostly don't mind splatting. I'm start scumming the long way.

[tasonir]

I object to the poll on the basis of no unarmed option

[Berder]

I train fighting until I find a fast weapon with an additive brand or a big weapon with a multiplicative brand or something highly enchanted. I use a dagger until then.

How is that? I tried VpAr recently, even with short sword it was too bad so I started training SBl after reaching Fighting 3+. Or do you mean as book background?

It should be ok; I do that a lot. Dagger is probably better than short sword at 0 skill, regardless of the AvEffDam, because the delay is 1.0 which reduces the maximum damage you can receive per turn.

Of course, don't fight anything dangerous that way!

[Sandman25]

It should be ok; I do that a lot. Dagger is probably better than short sword at 0 skill, regardless of the AvEffDam, because the delay is 1.0 which reduces the maximum damage you can receive per turn.

Of course, don't fight anything dangerous that way!

How do you play Ar? For me main way to deal damage is that weapon. I am not sure how having delay 1.0 can save me from death early game, I don't have any escape options anyway.

[XuaXua]

I voted two-handed short blades.

[Sprucery]

Of course daggers are best because they do the most damage.

[bcadren]

Of course daggers are best because they do the most damage.

The funny thing is...with excellent Short Blades and Stealth...you're technically right. Dagger of Holy Wrath can even one-shot ANY of the Pan Lords if you manage to sneak up on them; but it'd be pretty daft to -rely- on that have to switch between Dagger and Blessed Blade or something; whihc would leed to high Long and high Short.

[Sprucery]

Yes, I was serious.

(Of course it is a matter of defining what best means.)

[Turukano]

I voted for two-handed and polearms. Some thoughts about it:

Recently there was an interesting discussion about weapon types in Are axes the best melee weapon? I like how different weapon types have different properties, all of them having an advantage on their own.

I always go for a two-handed weapon. I'm not sure if polearms are the best but they have definitely become my favourite. When you are hasted you usually get two "free" hits with reaching, the synergy of polearm + spectral weapon has already been mentioned.

A bardiche is not too common - one good point to vote for M&F and great mace btw - but in the long run you will find/acquire one. With my favourite god min delay for bardiche is at 21.5 (26.0 with Ash) which is manageable.

Without Ash/Oka 26.0 skill would be quite a lot of XP in a straightforward game. So the choice of god has some influence on what is the "best" weapon type - consider Oka's/Trog's gifts as well. Without Ash/Oka/Trog I'd probably vote for M&F (maybe with the exception of Makhleb -> axes).

[Dungeoneer]

I usually go for greatswords or double swords.

[cerealjynx]

I voted two-handed short blades.

Hell yeah, Gyre and Grimble kick ass!
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9286

[Berder]

It should be ok; I do that a lot. Dagger is probably better than short sword at 0 skill, regardless of the AvEffDam, because the delay is 1.0 which reduces the maximum damage you can receive per turn.

Of course, don't fight anything dangerous that way!

How do you play Ar? For me main way to deal damage is that weapon. I am not sure how having delay 1.0 can save me from death early game, I don't have any escape options anyway.

Well, you do have some wands. You just need to avoid any ogres, orc warriors, jellies, or ice beasts, and be cautious with the rest of the stuff. I play warper, assassin, hunter, chaos knight, abyssal knight, skald, and wanderer that way, since they use melee but don't start with a great weapon.

It does depend a bit on your race. I have most experience with octopodes, who are strong in untrained pre lair melee with a dagger, due to constriction.

[duvessa]

Dagger is probably better than short sword at 0 skill, regardless of the AvEffDam, because the delay is 1.0 which reduces the maximum damage you can receive per turn.

This advice is so bad that I actually felt myself getting worse at Crawl as I read it.

[Sar]

Well, you do have some wands. You just need to avoid any ogres, orc warriors, jellies, or ice beasts, and be cautious with the rest of the stuff.

Wands are kind of strong and can kill those things.

[Berder]

Well, you do have some wands. You just need to avoid any ogres, orc warriors, jellies, or ice beasts, and be cautious with the rest of the stuff.

Wands are kind of strong and can kill those things.

You don't have enough wand charges to kill all the dangerous pre-lair things. Better to avoid them when possible.

[Sar]

You have enough to kill some of them, at least. I like killing things.

[Berder]

I'm saying if you have the option of safely ignoring a sleeping dangerous thing then it's normally better to do that than spend wand charges on it. 15 puffs of flame or 15 enslave charges can run out pretty quick. Particularly, don't melee dangerous things with just an untrained dagger/short sword. Specifically, the list of dangerous pre-lair things includes ogres, orc warriors, jellies, and ice beasts, plus most player ghosts and uniques.

[tabstorm]

Best for win probability ranking:
Maces > Polearms > Long Blades > Axes > Short Blades
What I actually use:
Axes

[Sandman25]

Wands are kind of strong and can kill those things.

Wand of enslavement saved me from death to first Kobold I met (both wands of randomness and of flame were too bad: hasted and missed correspondingly). I can't imagine how you are going to kill them safely (I almost died to an Adder several times also)

[Sar]

Stay on a staircase and ascend if you didn't thing until it's at one square from you.

[Sandman25]

Stay on a staircase and ascend if you didn't thing until it's at one square from you.

Which staircase? It was D1, literally first kobold.

[Sar]

I'm taking about Berder post, I don't think he meant D:1 ogres, ice beasts etc.

[Sandman25]

I'm taking about Berder post, I don't think he meant D:1 ogres, ice beasts etc.

My point is if I cannot kill a Kobold, how am I going to kill Ogre etc.? Do you train Evocations?

[Sar]

My point is if I cannot kill a Kobold, how am I going to kill Ogre etc.? Do you train Evocations?

Stay on a staircase and ascend if you didn't kill it until it's at one square from you.

[mps]

Yeah, why aren't wands in the poll?

[Berder]

I'm taking about Berder post, I don't think he meant D:1 ogres, ice beasts etc.

My point is if I cannot kill a Kobold, how am I going to kill Ogre etc.? Do you train Evocations?

You can probably kill a kobold with a 0 skill dagger at xl1 with any race, most of the time, assuming it doesn't have a disto weapon or something. Just pillar-dance if it starts going bad. What race are you talking about? Maybe a deep elf would need to focus short blades early on.

[Sandman25]

You can probably kill a kobold with a 0 skill dagger at xl1 with any race, most of the time, assuming it doesn't have a disto weapon or something. Just pillar-dance if it starts going bad. What race are you talking about? Maybe a deep elf would need to focus short blades early on.

It was Hu.

[dirtywick]

I'm taking about Berder post, I don't think he meant D:1 ogres, ice beasts etc.

My point is if I cannot kill a Kobold, how am I going to kill Ogre etc.? Do you train Evocations?

Having trouble with a Kobold one time doesn't mean you can't fight an Ogre four floors down. I mean, you can often no skill unarmed melee a kobold and win and I don't think you need to burn several wand charges to deal with one. There's several floors in between where one would presumably find weapons, armor, and possibly another wand so you don't need to run from everything remotely challenging. Regardless, I find that for early Ogres and Orc Warriors the wand of random effects is generally going to do the job. The wand of flame I save for jellies and ice beasts, and the enslavement for orc and gnoll packs. Everything else is melee until you develop some skill. Centaurs are the sucky things to fight as an Ar, there's really not something you're given out of the box that can deal with one effectively.

[and into]

Enslavement is good against centaurs (and orc warriors). And, well, just about everything in early game.

Artificer is a solid background, overall, but I wouldn't recommend it for newer players simply because the way it starts you off is not something you can just continue indefinitely in most cases. Nonetheless, the starting wands are nearly always good enough to carry you to a strong god and some basic equipment from the RNG, and you will often get another wand or two by that time, as well.

Hopefully it doesn't need to be said, but don't hesitate to use any early ?recharging on your wand of enslavement, if it starts getting low on charges.

[agentgt]

I would say the best starting weapon type is staves. Unfortunately there is only one background that allows staves (personally I think warper and some other so so backgrounds should start with a stave instead of the every present short sword/dagger).

Also stave is the best weapon type in the game since:

1. All species other than Felid can wield its top tier weapon: Lajatang.
2. Crazy Yuif guarantees a Chaos Quarterstaff of +2-+4. This is an exceedingly powerful weapon early and actually generates very often.
3. Agnes is also some what common and early
4. Because of low skill investment and few weapon options acquirement almost always guarantees a Lajatang of awesomeness.
5. Lajatangs have some of the best brand weighting. Lajatangs of speed baby.
6. Obviously the minimum XP required.

The second best weapon type is polearm since:

1. Lots of ways to generate meat shields (fedhas, kiku)
2. Gnolls generate with halberd so you have 13 base damage weapon earlier than other weapon types.
3. It cross trains with <strike>polearm</strike> staves (haha for those that replied).
4. Its top tier damage weapon "Bardiche" is the most common of the top tier weapons.

[moocowmoocow]

To me the "best" criteria means least hassle. In my opinion maces are clear winner because they're so numerous that it's very seldom you won't find a good brand fairly quickly. They have excellent one and two handed options plus low skill requirements.

[XuaXua]

The second best weapon type is polearm since:

1. It cross trains with polearm

Yep.

[ythm]

I'm convinced that if you're taking the long way, axes are about as good as it gets. While the single target damage may seem underwhelming, axes shine when your character is in the most danger, which is to say, when you're surrounded and you don't have a hallway to retreat down. Passively killing Antaeus as you swing at the Ice Fiend next to him is probably the most vindicating experience for any character who chose to train axes. On some species like Fo, I'd prefer maces and flails or staves for the lower skill investment and the fact that axes really don't synergize with your innate ability to dig a 1-tile LOS throughout most of the game. Even for Fo the fact remains, if you're ever forced into fighting more than a single enemy in a hallway (which pretty often seems to be the case) axes are feel superior.

[dowan]

My sister says all the weapons are the same, except some of them are bad. I told her she's a dumb fighter, and she just asked "What's a fighter?". What a dummy.
Don't tell her I called her a dummy though, sometimes she gets really mad!

[Turukano]

Also stave is the best weapon type in the game since:

2. Crazy Yuif guarantees a Chaos Quarterstaff of +2-+4. This is an exceedingly powerful weapon early and actually generates very often.

A quarterstaff of chaos is an extremely powerful early weapon in a lot of fights, yes. Unfortunately, it can berserk your foes. In one of my games this resulted in the message "Please select your species".

[agentgt]

Also stave is the best weapon type in the game since:

2. Crazy Yuif guarantees a Chaos Quarterstaff of +2-+4. This is an exceedingly powerful weapon early and actually generates very often.

A quarterstaff of chaos is an extremely powerful early weapon in a lot of fights, yes. Unfortunately, it can berserk your foes. In one of my games this lead to the message "Please select your species".

Good thing the staff kills the monster the next hit. I have yet to die to a beserk monster from this staff. With other chaos weapons yes but for this high enchanted qstaff your more than likely to kill the monster the next hit given the weapon's accuracy, damage, and slaying. If your fighting undead or other non beserkable monster the weapon is a no-brainer. Besides if your seriously concerned hopefully you will have found a plain qstaff by then to switch to for the dangerous monster.

I would love to hear people that have actually died because of Yuif's chaos qstaff. I have yet to see a true example

[duvessa]

  Code:

<Sequell> 30338 games for * (ckiller=crazy_yiuf ckaux=quarterstaff_of_chaos): 256x ew, 99x Zermako, 95x pigah, 93x LogicNinja, 84x Neil, 77x heteroy, 75x qtip, 71x phyphor, 66x firemonkey, 61x BirdoPrey, 56x Guido, 55x Congressman, 55x WallyJ, 54x xw, 54x undersol, 53x davejl, 51x Kellhus, 50x gw, 50x Voker57, 49x aTarkinC, 49x jejorda2, 47x Sorbius, 47x Elynae, 45x Snack, 45x Monkaria, 44x estick, 43x nogg...

[Bloax]

The best weapon type is transmutations for melee and crossbows for ranged.
fin

[bcadren]

  Code:

<Sequell> 30338 games for * (ckiller=crazy_yiuf ckaux=quarterstaff_of_chaos): 256x ew, 99x Zermako, 95x pigah, 93x LogicNinja, 84x Neil, 77x heteroy, 75x qtip, 71x phyphor, 66x firemonkey, 61x BirdoPrey, 56x Guido, 55x Congressman, 55x WallyJ, 54x xw, 54x undersol, 53x davejl, 51x Kellhus, 50x gw, 50x Voker57, 49x aTarkinC, 49x jejorda2, 47x Sorbius, 47x Elynae, 45x Snack, 45x Monkaria, 44x estick, 43x nogg...

...by wielding it as their weapon and it hasting/berserking their target which kills them; not from Crazy Yiuf himself, which can be a hard unique (if you barge into his shack unprepared).

[agentgt]

  Code:

<Sequell> 30338 games for * (ckiller=crazy_yiuf ckaux=quarterstaff_of_chaos): 256x ew, 99x Zermako, 95x pigah, 93x LogicNinja, 84x Neil, 77x heteroy, 75x qtip, 71x phyphor, 66x firemonkey, 61x BirdoPrey, 56x Guido, 55x Congressman, 55x WallyJ, 54x xw, 54x undersol, 53x davejl, 51x Kellhus, 50x gw, 50x Voker57, 49x aTarkinC, 49x jejorda2, 47x Sorbius, 47x Elynae, 45x Snack, 45x Monkaria, 44x estick, 43x nogg...

HaHa I mean dying while using the qstaff. Obviously you need to kill Yuif with great care.. Luckily the game practically rune doors Yuif (you can't auto explore walk into yuif). He has an obvious and very recognizable vault. I distinctly remember talking to Zermako directly on IRC about how he would just "try" to kill Yuif because the "worse case scenario is he would have to restart a couple floors up". If your not impatient like Zermako was you can just "tt" out side yuif's little corner and wait for him to come and blow him away with a wand (come back if you don't have a wand).

[moocowmoocow]

What is the chance per hit of haste/berserk? I would think it's always bad to knowingly roll the dice on putting yourself inescapable death situation. If you end up hasting something like an orc warrior, hydra or komodo dragon, it's game over without consumables or luck. Just doesn't seem worth the risk for a weapon. And if you have to switch to weaker weapon on stronger enemies, that just seems silly.

[daggaz]

What is the chance per hit of haste/berserk? I would think it's always bad to knowingly roll the dice on putting yourself inescapable death situation. If you end up hasting something like an orc warrior, hydra or komodo dragon, it's game over without consumables or luck. Just doesn't seem worth the risk for a weapon. And if you have to switch to weaker weapon on stronger enemies, that just seems silly.

It's high enough that you can depend on it happening sooner than later. You also have invis which is just super fun in the early game on an orc warrior.

[dowan]

Chaos is a great brand for a stabber, being able to paralyze an OOF or ALich is great, who cares if they turn invisible, and if they even can go berserk, it'd be a good thing. I don't see the draw for anyone else though.

[Turukano]

I have yet to die to a beserk monster from this staff.

Every now and then I update the topic Famous last words.

If you have some last words like I shouldn't have taken this quarterstaff or last messages like the 6-headed hydra goes berserk or the orc knight flickers and vanishes you are welcome.

[njvack]

Chaos is a great brand for a stabber, being able to paralyze an OOF or ALich is great

Cloning them, however, is *not* great.