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Is he really a bad pick for stabbers? It seems he is meant for these types and with double the stealth it would let you focus on weapon skills and a little magic. I did well with Mak but it was almost too easy. And ended up doing less stabbing. Wandering mushrooms may clear out things but it doesn't really help stabbing much. Okawaru helps but to my mind it is better to go with Dis and buff up before difficult battles.

The only aspect specifically good for stabbers is shadow step. Umbra evasion, fog bleed and shadow form are good for all. stealth boost is redundant since you train stealth anyway, and you should have a means of stabbing awake things.

Dith is better suited for other archetypes before stabbers, such as blasters. Stabbers have better options than Dith.

When character melees there is a chance that Shadow will attack it too and it can distract the target allowing to get tier 4 stabs

1010011010 wrote:The only aspect specifically good for stabbers is shadow step. Umbra evasion, fog bleed and shadow form are good for all. stealth boost is redundant since you train stealth anyway, and you should have a means of stabbing awake things.

Dith is better suited for other archetypes before stabbers, such as blasters. Stabbers have better options than Dith.

So, if I understand your meaning correctly. Double the stealth is good but there is a point at which extremely high stealth is not needed and/or skills with short weapons and auxiliarly methods of killing are more important.

1010011010 wrote:The only aspect specifically good for stabbers is shadow step. Umbra evasion, fog bleed and shadow form are good for all. stealth boost is redundant since you train stealth anyway, and you should have a means of stabbing awake things.

Dith is better suited for other archetypes before stabbers, such as blasters. Stabbers have better options than Dith.

Why blasters in particular? Shadow Mimic? I personally find Dith's Bleed Smoke to be his most useful ability, and it's melee dudes who benefit the most from breaking LOF when hit from distance. A blaster often has the option of firing right back.

I personally like Dith with long blade wielding lightly armored melee characters who get to one-shot a lot of monsters for a very modest investment in Stealth and the cross training they get with a dagger.

barretdolph wrote:Is he really a bad pick for stabbers?

No. Dith is a strong god for almost all characters.

1010011010 wrote:The only aspect specifically good for stabbers is shadow step. Umbra evasion, fog bleed and shadow form are good for all. stealth boost is redundant since you train stealth anyway

As you pointed out, most of Dith's benefits are good for all characters, including stabbers. Stabbers particularly profit from Shadow Step, and the value of doubled stealth goes up as your stealth increases, meaning that stabbers do particularly benefit from it as well. Shadow mimic mimicking short blade attacks is certainly underwhelming, but it also mimics hexes, and there's no rule that "stabbers" can't learn conjurations or use heavier weapons as well.

barretdolph wrote:Double the stealth is good but there is a point at which extremely high stealth is not needed and/or skills with short weapons and auxiliarly methods of killing are more important.

Prettty much. Dith will help you be a better stabber, but stabbers want help when they can't stab (this doesn't necessarily have to come from a god). Kik, Ash and Lugonu are some of the better gods for stab focused build, disregarding that early alters make for different decisions.

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:Why blasters in particular? Shadow Mimic?

It's just one example, I'm sure there are many.
Blasters are generally squishier and so appreciate the umbra evasion boost, bleed fog and shadow form a bit more than others. Shadow mimic boosts conjurations but also melee so you can use your loud spells less often. Stealth boost keeps you from getting swarmed which is nice for everyone, but nicer when your best damage output is limited by mp.

Disclaimer: pick your god based on what's available not late game optimisation.

@Lasty: I agree, perhaps my first post had too harsh a tone against Dith.

My favorite Dith character was an ogre with maxed Throwing and a huge stack of large rocks. Very strong.

You can stab non-sleeping monsters just fine with a high enough stealth score. They walk around with a ? because they are unaware of you.

Lasty wrote:Shadow mimic mimicking short blade attacks is certainly underwhelming, but it also mimics hexes

But the mimicked hexes have low power, so they're essentially useless too.

I switched to Dithy after TSO and Trog on a SpBe win. Helped me still have good stealth with heavy armour. And I stabkilled Antaeus on that character. Holy Wrath Dagger is the shiz. [But don't stay with TSO on a stabber; since you get a stealth penalty and aren't ALLOWED to stab living characters; I just faith grinded through some boring hell-spawn with an Elec Quickblade for enough piety for it, then left.]

Since Stealth has no maximum; the double stealth effect means...foes have half the likelihood to wake up/notice you always. I would not say that's redundant. Unlike + Stealth items, which ARE redundant, this bonus is multiplicative.

Dith is great for stabbers, don't let anyone tell you otherwise -- shadow step, stealth boost, umbra effects when things go wrong, bleed shadows / shadow form for escaping. I have a SpEn of dith win and I was regularly getting results from the mimic'd hexes, as well as distraction stabs, I can't really say whether this is representative but in that game at least the mimic and stabbing/enchanting seemed to work very well together.

advil wrote:Dith is great for stabbers, don't let anyone tell you otherwise -- shadow step, stealth boost, umbra effects when things go wrong, bleed shadows / shadow form for escaping. I have a SpEn of dith win and I was regularly getting results from the mimic'd hexes, as well as distraction stabs, I can't really say whether this is representative but in that game at least the mimic and stabbing/enchanting seemed to work very well together.

Dith is probably THE stabber god.

The problem is, he makes you good at what you are already good but doesn't really provide tools to kill things you can stab or hex. Gods like Nemelex and Makhleb might make you less focused but you gain versatility

I like to go dith and train long blades to kill dudes that can't be stabbed (quick blades are great but I haven't found one in my stabber games for a long time)

Do you acquire weapons? It'll often give you one of a base type you haven't seen from your highest-skilled weapon. (eg, please give me a triple sword/quickblade)

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