VS short blade choice

[phobetor]

I'm playing a vine stalker enchanter of Makhleb, currently in shoals. I have three weapon choices a +0 dagger of electrocution, a +0 cutlass of speed, and a +4 cutlass of draining. I also have 2 enchant scrolls. Which if any of these weapons would you invest in? Because of VS bite I would think speed is the way to go but could use some advice. Thanks.

[Siegurt]

Dagger will do more damage in melee and when stabbing. Speed will give you more opportunities to bite things, which does decent damage, hurts their spellcasting chance, and can heal your MP some.

Personally it'd depend largely on what the rest of my character looked like, what other equipment I had, what kind of spells I had at my disposal and what I'd trained already, so I could probably give you my personal answer if you posted a character dump.

[acvar]

On VS it is all about the speed. Your bite is your real weapon and more attacks per AUT on your weapon is what really matters. Quickblades are the real weapon of choice for VS.

[tasonir]

Fun (outdated, doh!) fact of the day: At level 27, a VS bite has higher base damage than a GSC; it's 27 damage. I believe it's increased by strength/fighting, but there's no weapon skill to raise it's damage, so the GSC will still have higher final damage due to maces skill. I'm not entirely sure about what modifiers affect it, but yeah, the damage is quite high. Its damage is based on your level, so it does less when you're inexperienced, but at all points of the game the damage is "high".

You should still keep a dagger around for stabbing, for as long as you're interesting in being able to stab monsters (which is probably just about all game except for extended).

[Siegurt]

Fun fact of the day: At level 27, a VS bite has higher base damage than a GSC; it's 27 damage. I believe it's increased by strength/fighting, but there's no weapon skill to raise it's damage, so the GSC will still have higher final damage due to maces skill. I'm not entirely sure about what modifiers affect it, but yeah, the damage is quite high. Its damage is based on your level, so it does less when you're inexperienced, but at all points of the game the damage is "high".

You should still keep a dagger around for stabbing, for as long as you're interesting in being able to stab monsters (which is probably just about all game except for extended).

Actually that was changed quite a while ago...

It's now Bite mutation*2 + Level/3 base damage:

  Code:

const int fang_damage = you.has_usable_fangs() * 2;
        if (player_mutation_level(MUT_ANTIMAGIC_BITE))
            return fang_damage + div_rand_round(you.get_hit_dice(), 3);


so 6+9 = 15 base damage at level 27

And yes, it's modified by strength and dex (The same as all aux attacks)

  Code:

int melee_attack::player_aux_stat_modify_damage(int damage)
{
    int dammod = 20;
    // Use the same str/dex weighting that unarmed combat does, for now.
    const int dam_stat_val = (7 * you.strength() + 3 * you.dex())/10;

    if (dam_stat_val > 10)
        dammod += random2(dam_stat_val - 9);
    else if (dam_stat_val < 10)
        dammod -= random2(11 - dam_stat_val);

    damage *= dammod;
    damage /= 20;

    return damage;
}


As well as fighting and slaying (Just like any other melee attack)

[ajon]

Hmm, so I was curious to try a VsBe. Would it be more advisable to try use a short blade for more attacks and do dex or to try and go with a heavier weapon and strength? Looks like strength plays a bigger role but more attacks might do more damage overall?

[Siegurt]

Hmm, so I was curious to try a VsBe. Would it be more advisable to try use a short blade for more attacks and do dex or to try and go with a heavier weapon and strength? Looks like strength plays a bigger role but more attacks might do more damage overall?

Well, the two aren't related nearly as strongly as your question seems to imply..

Strength and Dex damage weighting has very very little effect on your damage overall, to the point where you should probably ignore it. Strength and Dex do add damage, the amount is fairly small, and the weighting between the two ranges from "even" (str and dex are used the same) to "pretty much all strength" but what sort of weighting your weapon has shouldn't impact your strength/dex choice at all.

Strength should be used to let you use heavier armour for less evasion and/or spellcasting penalty, Dex should be chosen when you want to evade better. Ignore the effect they have on your weapon, you're better off.

So for a non-VS it's nearly always true that you should use a more damaging weapon over a faster, less damaging one. VS get a bite attack, which is pretty darn good, which can be triggered every time you attack, so they will do pretty good damage even with a faster, lighter weapon. The other advantage of using a faster, lighter weapon, is it requires less skill, which gives you the flexibility to put your XP elsewhere. However be aware that it plays out differently than a standard berserker, who usually want to bash the heck out of things with the biggest, heaviest weapon at their disposal. You'll need to play more conservatively and focus more precisely on how you position yourself, and use all the tools at your disposal (Particularly evocable things, as you'll now have the XP to spare for them) Short blades also let you do a bunch of damage by stabbing them, however this requires an investment in stealth and a good understanding of how noise and positioning work, it's not for the feint of heart.

If you're still learning the game, I'd recommend a non-VS berserker (VS can't use healing items, so you lose a common panic button) with a big squashworthy weapon (really just about any non-shortblade will be fine) Mi, Mf, or HO are good for that purpose.

[tasonir]

Ah doh, I should have known a 27 damage bite was too good to be true.

One thing I'd add is that if you want a stat for more damage, strength is definitely the way to go. Not because of str/dex weighting, but because of the normal strength bonus to weapon damage. One point isn't that much of a difference, but if you've ever tried swapping in a +6 str ring, it's noticeable, imho. Of course I personally tend to notice it from the +15 chei strength, but I'm crazy. I think it's something like 38 strength to double your damage now? It was buffed somewhere back around .14 if I recall. I wouldn't recommend taking strength simply because you want more damage, as it's usually better to raise your defenses than overkill things. And the strength bonus is more noticeable on hard hitting weapons (unarmed, 2H)...Don't expect it to help much with short blades. I still put 95% of my level ups into dex or int, but strength isn't quite so far behind as it was a year ago.

[acvar]

It's now Bite mutation*2 + Level/3 base damage:

According to the wiki and the actual dammage I see the equation is:

fangs*2 + level*2/3

so level 27 is base dammage 24.

[duvessa]

It's now Bite mutation*2 + Level/3 base damage:

According to the wiki and the actual dammage I see the equation is:

fangs*2 + level*2/3

so level 27 is base dammage 24.

Seriously? Siegurt posted the exact code showing that you're wrong.

[xentronium]

It's now Bite mutation*2 + Level/3 base damage:

According to the wiki and the actual dammage I see the equation is:

fangs*2 + level*2/3

so level 27 is base dammage 24.

Note that the wiki vine stalker page is up to date for version 0.14.

[Siegurt]

It's now Bite mutation*2 + Level/3 base damage:

According to the wiki and the actual dammage I see the equation is:

fangs*2 + level*2/3

so level 27 is base dammage 24.

Seriously? Siegurt posted the exact code showing that you're wrong.

He did leave out one part though. The base damage is actually [Bite mutation]*2 + [XL]/3 + ([Strength]-10)/5 if your strength is over 10. Because getting a strength bonus twice makes perfect sense.

The relevant section is this:

  Code:

   const int fang_damage = you.has_usable_fangs() * 2;
        if (player_mutation_level(MUT_ANTIMAGIC_BITE))
            return fang_damage + div_rand_round(you.get_hit_dice(), 3);

        const int str_damage = div_rand_round(max(you.strength()-10, 0), 5);
 if (player_mutation_level(MUT_ACIDIC_BITE))
            return fang_damage + str_damage + roll_dice(2,4);

        return fang_damage + str_damage;


I assume you meant this line:

  Code:

        const int str_damage = div_rand_round(max(you.strength()-10, 0), 5);


That line is after the return of the VS damage, it doesn't apply to VS bites (It *does* apply to other bites) VS get level-based base-damage bonuses *instead* of the strength-based base-damage bonuses. (Other bites do get both a strength-based base damage, and a strength-influenced "stat damage" bonus, the same as blade hands or statue form, or dragon form)

(I meant what I said: base damage for VS bite is [fang]*2 + [xl]/3)

It's now Bite mutation*2 + Level/3 base damage:

According to the wiki and the actual dammage I see the equation is:

fangs*2 + level*2/3

so level 27 is base dammage 24.

You see now why the mantra in the forums is often "don't trust the wiki"

Of course the real lesson here should be "Don't worry about damage formulas, beat things up, if you're doing that pretty well, then that's good enough"

[tasonir]

I've corrected the fang damage formula, and marked the page as version 16. I don't believe there's anything else wrong with it, I scanned it for any errors. Let me know if I missed anything.