So, liches have what spells now exactly?

[kuniqs]

What exactly lich / anchient lich spellbooks contain? Is it a randomized set for each lich? Do they randomly cast each monster spell in the game? Will 2 lich monsters have different spells?

[n1000]

EDIT: This is outdated. My mistake!

There are several selections of spells liches and ancient liches can have. I believe both types of lich randomly get a set from:

• bolt of cold, paralyse, summon greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self [emergency]
• corrosive bolt, slow, invisibility, throw icicle, crystal spear
• bolt of fire, confuse, haste, bolt of draining, summon greater demon, banishment [emergency]
• mystic blast, bolt of cold, invisibility, animate dead, orb of destruction

[Sar]

That's outdated info, in trunk liches have randomized (they still follow some rules) spell sets. Fun!

[Berder]

Assume every lich will try to paralyze you, cast chain lightning, cast LCS, and summon some brimstone fiends. Because they might.

[bel]

Assume every lich will try to paralyze you, cast chain lightning, cast LCS, and summon some brimstone fiends. Because they might.

And Lee's Rapid Destruction. I learnt it the hard way when an ancient Lich was "safely" behind an iron grate or something for a ziggurat portal in depths. "Ok, I can just ignore him and pick up this teleport scroll"...SMASH - 1/3 hp, blink away, unfortunately right next to a rock wall. SMASH. dead.

[wheals]

Spells they have: Summon Greater Demon, IOOD, LCS, corrosive bolt, malign gateway, spellforged servitor (!), simulacrum, parrow, haunt, XXX, IMB, BATTLESPHERE, bolt of draining, agony, bolt of fire, fireball, bolt of cold, icicle, iron shot, LRD, petrify, paralyse, lightning bolt, shadow critters (don't worry, good chance of not summoning more liches), confuse, slow, sleep, haste, invis, teleport self, banishment.

Spells they don't have: other ones, including chain lightning.

[basil]

That sounds pretty spoilery compared to "old" liches. If preventing the player from learning all of a lich's spells from 1-2 casts is a good idea, maybe the spell pool could be reduced to 10-15 spells and listed in xv? For example, I'm don't think that having LCS, Iron Shot, and IMB in that list is good, so the two least-appropriate of those three could be removed.

[scorpionwarrior]

An ancient lich with spellforged servitor is absolutely terrifying, good work devs (ps. anyone know how much hp monster servitors have?)

[and into]

Haunt and XXX are hella-scarier than summon greater demon, as well. So... uh, good job devs!

But yeah, some kind of information in xv seems appropriate? What is the current description? Something like "Beware, these ancient mages have an assortment of powerful spells, the nature of which you cannot predict" might be appropriate, in order to key people in to this new special case for liches.

[bel]

I believe the xv description now says, "It knows a vast assortment of dangerous spells" or something like that. Btw, Frederick also now knows spellforged servitor. I hope his xp was raised 10fold.

[Moose]

An ancient lich with spellforged servitor is absolutely terrifying, good work devs (ps. anyone know how much hp monster servitors have?)

Streakbreaker from last night: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/moose/morgu ... 071950.txt

[Sandman25]

An ancient lich with spellforged servitor is absolutely terrifying, good work devs (ps. anyone know how much hp monster servitors have?)

Streakbreaker from last night: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/moose/morgu ... 071950.txt

Sorry. That was a very cruel servitor.

  Code:

The spellforged servitor gestures at you while chanting!
The iron shot misses you! The iron shot hits the orb of fire!
The orb of fire is destroyed!!!


[mopl]

An ancient lich with spellforged servitor is absolutely terrifying, good work devs (ps. anyone know how much hp monster servitors have?)

Streakbreaker from last night: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/moose/morgu ... 071950.txt

OMG 127 damage
I didn't know Iron Shot could be so powerful...

[Sprucery]

Wiki says alich Iron Shot is 3d44, so 127 is not far from max damage.

[mopl]

Wiki says alich Iron Shot is 3d44, so 127 is not far from max damage.

d44 is 0-43 or 1-44 ?
Btw, this also means a very bad AC roll...

[Berder]

The most frightening thing a alich ever did was hit me for around 120 damage in one turn with chain lightning. I had no rElec and minimal AC. Since then I understand that's been nerfed a bit.

[Pereza0]

That sounds pretty spoilery compared to "old" liches. If preventing the player from learning all of a lich's spells from 1-2 casts is a good idea, maybe the spell pool could be reduced to 10-15 spells and listed in xv? For example, I'm don't think that having LCS, Iron Shot, and IMB in that list is good, so the two least-appropriate of those three could be removed.

I think it is actually a good thing.

Pan Lords are a good example of this working, you treat them with extreme prejudice because literally anything can come out of them. You don't really need to know the exact spell pool other than "ITS THE WORST". I would imagine unspoiled players would be even more careful than spoiled ones

I can't recall the current description, but it should sound really scary when mentioning the random spell set

[Sprucery]

d44 is 0-43 or 1-44 ?

It would be strange to have possibility for 0 damage, so I'd assume it's 1 - 44.

[mps]

An ancient lich with spellforged servitor is absolutely terrifying, good work devs (ps. anyone know how much hp monster servitors have?)

Streakbreaker from last night: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/moose/morgu ... 071950.txt

OMG 127 damage
I didn't know Iron Shot could be so powerful...

Yeah, I got two shot by a servitor with iron shot last week. I was somewhat surprised. It was summoned by a unique, though, if memory serves. 127 sounds about right for the damage too.

[Sar]

@Berder: chain lightning ignores AC IIRC.

[Giant Orange Brainbow Dash]

New Rupert and his summonbuddy nearly ate my demigod assassin yesterday. I think I'm going to treat his Spellforged Servitor as a good sign to just teleport away immediately going forward. When I found him the second time, he tried to solo me and my spectral knife. Things went much better that time around.

[Magipi]

What the hell is going on in 0.16 nowadays? Is there any monster in the game who can't cast spellforged servitor?

[bel]

What the hell is going on in 0.16 nowadays? Is there any monster in the game who can't cast spellforged servitor?

Quokkas

[nago]

@Berder: chain lightning ignores AC IIRC.

Don't elec attacks check AC/3 if you lack relec? I think I remember reading something like that here in tavern from some reliable user.

[duvessa]

Some elec attacks such as lightning bolt check only half AC.

[bel]

New Rupert and his summonbuddy nearly ate my demigod assassin yesterday. I think I'm going to treat his Spellforged Servitor as a good sign to just teleport away immediately going forward. When I found him the second time, he tried to solo me and my spectral knife. Things went much better that time around.

This is the first I have heard of this. Rupert can cast spellforged servitor? I don't recall this happenning in my games and doesn't seem to make sense, since he doesn't have any conjurations in his spell set.

[Sar]

Frederick does.

[Giant Orange Brainbow Dash]

New Rupert and his summonbuddy nearly ate my demigod assassin yesterday. I think I'm going to treat his Spellforged Servitor as a good sign to just teleport away immediately going forward. When I found him the second time, he tried to solo me and my spectral knife. Things went much better that time around.

This is the first I have heard of this. Rupert can cast spellforged servitor? I don't recall this happenning in my games and doesn't seem to make sense, since he doesn't have any conjurations in his spell set.

Right! Frederick! My bad.

[Blobbo]

Are enemy servitors abjurable? Any way to deal with them other than to run like hell?

This sounds bad, now common mobs are like Mara. Need to prep some countermeasure tactics.

[Sar]

Aliches were always scarier than Mara (fitting, as they usually appear much later).

[Sandman25]

Aliches were always scarier than Mara (fitting, as they usually appear much later).

Aliches are trivial with Silence/Dispel Undead/Slimify

[n1000]

I really don't think any of those things makes a monster that casts spells which do hundreds of damage "trivial." Dispel undead will not kill them in a single turn, slimify requires the monster to be adjacent, and being silenced in Zot pretty much precludes a tactic being trivial. Silence is especially bad if one is relying on scrolls instead of the spell.

[duvessa]

Mara might legitimately be harder to kill than an alich (uniques in general are overwhelmingly not actually worth killing) but is definitely not more dangerous.

[Sandman25]

Mara might legitimately be harder to kill than an alich (uniques in general are overwhelmingly not actually worth killing) but is definitely not more dangerous.

I didn't reply to n1000 because ALich does have some spells that can kill Fe and other weak characters in a single turn (but it's trivial for Mu of Chei with max power Dispel Undead and/or Silence)
But this? Are you even serious? I cannot imagine a character who can safely kill Mara.

[Sar]

He literally just said that Mara is harder to kill than an alich. You don't need to kill Mara, though, as Mara is but a single unique and (a)liches are quite common and also appear in Zot:5 (mandatory).

[Sandman25]

He literally just said that Mara is harder to kill than an alich. You don't need to kill Mara, though, as Mara is but a single unique and (a)liches are quite common and also appear in Zot:5 (mandatory).

He literally said "definitely not more dangerous". I don't think it is true when you are Fe with Fire Storm, Mu with Dispel Undead etc.
Also I remember losing my FoFi in Vaults 4: it is not fun when your retreat path is blocked by Maras and you are fighting your own copy.

[Lasty]

But this? Are you even serious? I cannot imagine a character who can safely kill Mara.

If you've got decent defenses and rF+ or better, Mara is only scary in proportion to your own ghost's scariness. Here are a few conditions a character can fulfill to make Mara very close to completely safe, at least if you don't know any unlisted spells that will kill you in 2 or fewer casts.
* Have very good Evo and the right tools (rod of iron or Dispater's staff or phial of floods and enough other stuff)
* Be a DS with hellfire.
* Be able to cast Flight and Shatter.
* Be able to cast Tornado.
* Have an easy way to escape if the fight isn't going well (controlled blink or sanctuary, for example).
* Have very high defenses in proportion to your offense, especially in combination w/ antimagic weaponry.
* Know level 6+ summons, or have god minions that are equally powerful.

There are probably a lot more possibilities that aren't coming to mind right now. The important thing is to have the amount of damage you can deal Mara be large proportional to his hp while the amount of damage your ghost can deal you is small proportional to your hp.

[Sar]

@Lasty: Digging a killhole usually works. Also, Mara can be netted.

@Sandman25: a Fe can just walk away. Most chars can walk/tele away. And Mara can't do ~140 damage in one turn out of nowhere like a lich can (multiply by two if it's a servi-lich).

Fo suck, that is true.

[Blobbo]

But enough about Mara.

Let's talk about anti-lich defenses.

For now, I'm pretty much using:
For casters: Haste, get in range, launch OOD / LCS / Iron shot / Dispel Undead x3, if it kills him then celebrate, if it doesn't them run away like mad.
For melee without high level conjurations: Buff, wield the baddest holy or antimagic weapon I have, swing until dead.

I don't think any of the above tactics are actually that good. Help?

[Sar]

I either blast them with a good spell or melee them. But that's what I do with most monsters!

Oh, and I guess I use ranged if I trained some. I rarely train ranged, though!

Edit: aliches can be netted too!

[cerealjynx]

They gave that lich some spells. Liches love spells.

[nago]

Net are overpowered yes.
But mara can still blink automatically escaping from them, and I'm pretty sure aliches can still cast bad spells while netted

[Sandman25]

Net are overpowered yes.
But mara can still blink automatically escaping from them, and I'm pretty sure aliches can still cast bad spells while netted

I wonder if being netted makes liches less likely to use spells. Otherwise nets don't make much sense, I usually don't care if lich melees me.

[Sprucery]

uniques in general are overwhelmingly not actually worth killing

Don't you value the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from killing uniques?

Dispater's staff

I was about to ask who has Dispater's staff when fighting Mara but I guess if Mara spawns in Tomb that's possible.

[anti-lich strategies]
For casters: Haste, get in range, launch OOD / LCS / Iron shot / Dispel Undead x3, if it kills him then celebrate, if it doesn't them run away like mad.
For melee without high level conjurations: Buff, wield the baddest holy or antimagic weapon I have, swing until dead.

That's what I do with casters and it usually works just fine. It's nice to have repel/deflect missiles on though. For melee, add in scrolls of holy word and silence. Well, holy word can be used by casters as well. Also elemental evokers are good to give the alich something else to do.

[le_nerd]

Stuff thats works against liches/Aliches: right now in trunk they do not see invisible (though it says they do). So go invisible, and stab them.

[Sar]

QUICK DELETE POST BEFORE DEVS SEE IT

[basil]

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... db19670d12

[ldf]

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f7db19670d12

Thanks for ruining it, le_nerd

[advil]

An ancient lich with spellforged servitor is absolutely terrifying, good work devs (ps. anyone know how much hp monster servitors have?)

Streakbreaker from last night: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/moose/morgu ... 071950.txt

I feel your pain, alich + servitor + OOD: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 234741.txt

Though clearly I should have backed off from that crowd earlier, could maybe have survived even both of the OODs in the air if I weren't being tormented.

[xentronium]

I suspect that servitors are even more dangerous than the liches that summon them because they have a higher chance to cast conjurations each round. Not sure if it works that way, but it seems to in my experience.