Veh -> Makhleb switch? Viable or dumb?

[Nordon]

Hello everyone,

I have a GrFE in the works and everything is going well so far.
However, I'd really like to make a switch from Veh to Makhleb once I have decent Evocations that will permit me to use the Staff of Energy and CBOE.

How tough is Veh's wrath?
Is this a remotely good idea anyway?

Cheers!

[kroki]

unless you want to farm zigs just stick to veh

[KoboldLord]

You will use a huge chunk of wizardry, which means you will have more difficulty trading up to better armor without losing your combat spells. Correcting this problem will be extremely expensive, unless you're already prepping for Ziggurats anyway.

You will lose a tile of range on all your conjurations. Depending on the spell, this can be very inconvenient. The difference between reaching to the edge of LOS and almost to the edge of LOS means you're giving up free turns to dangerous monsters. In some cases, those monsters would have died the moment they stepped into your LOS but now get to hurt you.

I wouldn't recommend swapping away from Vehumet unless you're Zig-running, in which case I wouldn't recommend Zig-running. Her wrath is a huge hassle and you've probably built your character around her passives.

[nago]

Plus his wrath seems incredibly dangerous, at least judging from the learndb (no direct experience), so you're not just going to lose powerful passive you are unconsciously constantly using, but also putting yourself in a potentially extremely deadly situations.

ABANDONMENT: 25 penance. RETRIBUTION: HD = your XL. Spell level = 1 + random_range(XL/5,XL/3) capped at 9. Spells include fire storm/hellfire at 9, LCS at 8, poison arrow/iron shot at 6. XL27? Expect 3d20 hellfire, 8d20 fire storm and 3d48 LCS. Oh, and the spell automatically bypasses EV/SH. Have fun!

Considerer gods' wrath may trigger when you gain xp, so potentially when you're low of hp because of the fight.

[DrKe]

if you're 3-5 runing, dumb
if you're 15 runing, both viable and dumb
if you want to clear a zig, viable and not very dumb

[nago]

For a single zig I'd say it's still very dumb.

[DrKe]

For a single zig I'd say it's still very dumb.

on the basis of...? veh wrath that you said you haven't experienced? there are reasonable ways to clear veh wrath

[nago]

On the basis Vehumet is an extremely good God for a "mage" char (especially if using Firestorm) to clear a single ziggurat, and personally I'd keep him, for all the reasons above-mentioned, rather than switching god, even if the option is Makh

[DrKe]

On the basis Vehumet is an extremely good God (especially if using Firestorm) to clear a single ziggurat, and personally I'd keep him, for all the reasons above-mentioned, rather than switching god, even if the option is Makh

sure, that's a viable route to take, but why would that make an alternative dumb? is doing a zig with Sif dumb? or just abandoning a god that you technically can clear a zig with?

[gammafunk]

For clearing a single zig, the dumb part is enduring Veh wrath when Veh is perfectly viable for clearing the zig in the first place. Probably a couple zigs with Veh would be just fine as the zig scaling isn't terribly steep.

I've experienced older Veh wrath, and it wasn't trivial even then. New wrath can blast you will LCS, firestorm, or hellfire instead of generic fairly low-level damage, and then having spells blow up in your face remains a problem. That's still something you're likely to live through, but if all you want is to clear a zig, Veh will work just fine as you won't be taking significant damage.

[DrKe]

For clearing a single zig, the dumb part is enduring Veh wrath when Veh is perfectly viable for clearing the zig in the first place. Probably a couple zigs with Veh would be just fine as the zig scaling isn't terribly steep.

I've experienced older Veh wrath, and it wasn't trivial even then. New wrath can blast you will LCS, firestorm, or hellfire instead of generic fairly low-level damage, and then having spells blow up in your face remains a problem. That's still something you're likely to live through, but if all you want is to clear a zig, Veh will work just fine as you won't be taking significant damage.

i'd say that's still very dumb

[nago]

I don't say that clearing a zig to Makh is dumb. However, going trough the "ordeal" of switching from a god with extremely good powers to clear a zig (or extended if we want to include that in the point) and an harsh wrath, to another one who provides a different benefit, but forces the player to offset other losses (i've put them in the end of the post) isn't an optimal decision, because of the wrath it actually lowers the chance to clear the zig/win the game/survive/whatever.

In other words, I'd say that going in a zig (not mega zig) with Vehu ins't worse (for a "mage" char) than going with Makh, so I weight more the dangers of the wrath than the eventual (which, to repeat *I* don't consider substantial) benefit to have Makh instead of Vehu. For another example, I'd agree with a switch like Oka -> Makh for a zig char, as the former would provide little to nothing, so the loss of not useful powers and the trouble of stone giants throw to you would be totally offset by the greater utility of a god like Makh


From my point of view, staying with vehu (which is pretty much repeating what KoboldLord said)
- the char keeps current powers. I don't considerer the extra experience needed to offset the wiz loss a serious problem, as we're talking post-end, provided it isn't so bad the char can't reliably cast any good offensive spell. However, I find significant the loss of mp on kill and especially the 1 extra tile range (and both are extremely good in a zig)
- the char doesn't put himself in potentially deadly situation due vehu's wrath. I honestly don't know what are the reasonable ways to clear his wrath, but if that means scumming "safe" area like abyss 1 they aren't "reasonable" to me, as wasting a lot of time time to solve a problem voluntarily created instead of actually playing ins't interesting (at least for me)
- the char misses heal on kill, which depending on situations, can be quite easily solved with other means, like regen, hw, dd's door, bjorg (or even necromut, if i'm allowed to say that).

[DrKe]

I don't say that clearing a zig to Makh is dumb. However, going trough the "ordeal" of switching from a god with extremely good powers to clear a zig (or extended if we want to include that in the point) and an harsh wrath, to another one who provides a different benefit, but forces the player to offset other losses (i've put them in the end of the post) isn't an optimal decision, because of the wrath it actually lowers the chance to clear the zig/win the game/survive/whatever.

In other words, I'd say that going in a zig (not mega zig) with Vehu ins't worse (for a "mage" char) than going with Makh, so I weight more the dangers of the wrath than the eventual (which, to repeat *I* don't consider substantial) benefit to have Makh instead of Vehu. For another example, I'd agree with a switch like Oka -> Makh for a zig char, as the former would provide little to nothing, so the loss of not useful powers and the trouble of stone giants throw to you would be totally offset by the greater utility of a god like Makh


From my point of view, staying with vehu (which is pretty much repeating what KoboldLord said)
- the char keeps current powers. I don't considerer the extra experience needed to offset the wiz loss a serious problem, as we're talking post-end, provided it isn't so bad the char can't reliably cast any good offensive spell. However, I find significant the loss of mp on kill and especially the 1 extra tile range (and both are extremely good in a zig)
- the char doesn't put himself in potentially deadly situation due vehu's wrath. I honestly don't know what are the reasonable ways to clear his wrath, but if that means scumming "safe" area like abyss 1 they aren't "reasonable" to me, as wasting a lot of time time to solve a problem voluntarily created instead of actually playing ins't interesting (at least for me)
- the char misses heal on kill, which depending on situations, can be quite easily solved with other means, like regen, hw, dd's door, bjorg (or even necromut, if i'm allowed to say that).

thats much better

you certainly can clear abyss 1 to clear wrath, but thats going to an extreme. all that is really needed is that you stay at high HP, via HW or just the fact that you are now with a god who heals you on kills

but at any rate, OP should stay with veh, despite how not-dumb switching to makh can potentially be

[DrKe]

btw i don't really like doing zigs

[mps]

This seems to be a question about current meta. Right now you see a lot of casters using Makhleb for megazigs, because there doesn't seem to be a good alternative. After you've cleared a number of ziggurats, you start to see large levels in which every tile is occupied by a monster, often high level ones. Think: A screen full of monsters with six orbs of fire, three ancient liches, and the rest draconians and killer klowns, plus a lot more coming from the edge of line of sight when you've killed what's on screen. The amount of damage you can take from their ranged attacks is huge and you need to be able to keep your hp up. Makhleb heal on kill + level 9 aoe spells seems to be the only thing that fits the bill.

If you just want to clear a couple ziggurats, you don't need Makhleb healing. You don't even need high level spells. A solid melee character can do it. The difference between Makhleb and Vehumet doesn't become critical until you get into these levels full of high level monsters.

On the other hand, if you're not going for this kind extended extended endgame megazig business, Vehumet is a fine option, probably better than Makhleb for casters and the switch is almost certainly not worth getting crazy wrathed.

[TheArcanist]

XL27? Expect 3d20 hellfire, 8d20 fire storm and 3d48 LCS. Oh, and the spell automatically bypasses EV/SH. Have fun!

Holy shit that wrath is terrifying. I mean, at least against Trog or Okawaru summons you have a chance to teleport/haste/turn invisible before they crushsmash you, but to just go 'lol take 8d20 fire damage nurd'...

Stick with Vehumet.

[Sandman25]

Just checked it in wizmode.

  Code:

 Vehumet rains destruction down upon you!
The crystal spear hits you!
Mandatory exit. Think how to survive! ; Huge Dmg: -34%(-77hp) hp: 66%(147hp)

Vehumet rains destruction down upon you!
The hellfire explodes! The blast of hellfire engulfs you!
Damage: -9%(-22hp)   hp: 91%(202hp)

[tasonir]

To be fair, firestorm being 8d20 is only 80 average damage. If we assume you have rF+, and I'm remembering correctly that firestorm was 45% unresistable, you would take 67.5% damage, or 54 damage, with 0 ac. With 20 ac you'd take 40.5 damage. Granted this is an average so it could go up to 80, But overall it's only about 50%-100% stronger than a hellfire. With 8 dice roll you're going to be strongly averaged anyways. Double hellfire hurts, but if you've finished the game and are preparing for a zig, I think double hellfire would be survivable.

I still very rarely switch gods, but it's doable. Maybe I'll try another run where I switch gods; I've kind of always wanted to do a sif -> free books -> someone else run.

[TheArcanist]

To be fair, firestorm being 8d20 is only 80 average damage. If we assume you have rF+, and I'm remembering correctly that firestorm was 45% unresistable, you would take 67.5% damage, or 54 damage, with 0 ac. With 20 ac you'd take 40.5 damage. Granted this is an average so it could go up to 80, But overall it's only about 50%-100% stronger than a hellfire. With 8 dice roll you're going to be strongly averaged anyways. Double hellfire hurts, but if you've finished the game and are preparing for a zig, I think double hellfire would be survivable.

I still very rarely switch gods, but it's doable. Maybe I'll try another run where I switch gods; I've kind of always wanted to do a sif -> free books -> someone else run.

God wrath is tied to XP gain now though, meaning the wrath is likely to go off just as you finish a fight - just when you're most likely to die from it.

[Sandman25]

Crystal spear is more dangerous than FS, it does not care about rF+.

[dirtywick]

To be fair, firestorm being 8d20 is only 80 average damage. If we assume you have rF+, and I'm remembering correctly that firestorm was 45% unresistable, you would take 67.5% damage, or 54 damage, with 0 ac. With 20 ac you'd take 40.5 damage. Granted this is an average so it could go up to 80, But overall it's only about 50%-100% stronger than a hellfire. With 8 dice roll you're going to be strongly averaged anyways. Double hellfire hurts, but if you've finished the game and are preparing for a zig, I think double hellfire would be survivable.

I still very rarely switch gods, but it's doable. Maybe I'll try another run where I switch gods; I've kind of always wanted to do a sif -> free books -> someone else run.

God wrath is tied to XP gain now though, meaning the wrath is likely to go off just as you finish a fight - just when you're most likely to die from it.

If a character is working of Veh wrath in prep for Zig clearing ending fights with low hp is totally avoidable.

[and into]

I'm with The Arcanist on this one. Even for a character with silly levels of experience, sudden bursts of 100 damage or more is pretty frightening.