God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills


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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 02:33

God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

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if you need a reminder as to what altar tiles go with which gods:
http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... ngn/altars
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 02:36

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Difference from last version can be viewed by pastebin's "this page has a previous version, view the difference"
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 03:14

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Is the ranking for melee character?

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 03:18

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

I would boost Yrednoodle up to A or even S tier for the early game. I'm not even considering any abilities beyond Animate Dead, it's just that Zombies are really good at providing almost 100% reliable escapes in resource poor environs, scale in power as you kill tougher things, and and unlike the corpse-saccing Trog and Fedhas, you can turn almost every single corpse you make into a permanent summon. They might not have the raw power of a Berserk Whatever or the multiple-floor capability of wandering mushrooms, but they have unrelenting numbers that don't cost piety to create.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 03:22

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Ok I'll assume this isn't 100% a joke.

I think I'd rather do panhelltomb with any of those 'E's (or any other god) than chei. Not seeing how you can put beogh above fedhas/yred/trog there either.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 03:28

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

duvessa wrote:Ok I'll assume this isn't 100% a joke.

I think I'd rather do panhelltomb with any of those 'E's (or any other god) than chei. Not seeing how you can put beogh above fedhas/yred/trog there either.


ive seen some good play with beogh in extended, but the panhelltomb list is actually not that serious, fyi
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 03:35

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

wizzzargh wrote:I would boost Yrednoodle up to A or even S tier for the early game. I'm not even considering any abilities beyond Animate Dead, it's just that Zombies are really good at providing almost 100% reliable escapes in resource poor environs, scale in power as you kill tougher things, and and unlike the corpse-saccing Trog and Fedhas, you can turn almost every single corpse you make into a permanent summon. They might not have the raw power of a Berserk Whatever or the multiple-floor capability of wandering mushrooms, but they have unrelenting numbers that don't cost piety to create.


yeah yred should probably be at B at least, i agree on that point from my own experiences playing yred. I feel like his * ability is below any of the others in A-tier though.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 03:35

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Sandman25 wrote:Is the ranking for melee character?


basically assume you're picking a god that the char can benefit from
Last edited by DrKe on Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 03:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 03:35

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

well it can be hard to actually get * with okawaru now

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 04:30

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

For some of these gods, this is all going to depend heavily on your race and build. And you aren't backed by numbers.

I'll generate some stats, looking at non-zealots who joined gods in D1-D9 or Temple at xl<12 in 0.16 trunk, and how often they made lair.
  Code:
<halberd> !lm * god.worship place=(D:1|D:2|D:3|D:4|D:5|D:6|D:7|D:8|D:9|Temple) s=noun xl<12 cv>=0.16-a !zealot
<Sequell> 58626 milestones for * (god.worship place=(D:1|D:2|D:3|D:4|D:5|D:6|D:7|D:8|D:9|Temple) xl<12 cv>=0.16-a !zealot): 11753x Okawaru, 6858x Vehumet, 4491x Cheibriados, 4115x Ru, 3875x Sif Muna, 3870x Ashenzari, 3832x Makhleb, 3289x Qazlal, 3174x Dithmenos, 2092x Kikubaaqudgha, 2016x Gozag, 1662x the Shining One, 1429x Trog, 1412x Nemelex Xobeh, 1023x Beogh, 1023x Fedhas, 780x Zin, 552x Yredelemnul,
<Sequell> 545x Xom, 445x Elyvilon, 124x Jiyva, 122x Pakellas, 89x Wulndraste, 55x Lugonu
<halberd> !lm * br.enter=lair s=god cv>=0.16-a !zealot
<Sequell> 21657 milestones for * (br.enter=lair cv>=0.16-a !zealot): 4100x Okawaru, 2904x Vehumet, 1463x Ashenzari, 1424x Sif Muna, 1406x Ru, 1400x Cheibriados, 1366x Makhleb, 1118x Dithmenos, 1104x Qazlal, 1047x, 771x Kikubaaqudgha, 689x Gozag, 517x Trog, 501x The Shining One, 398x Nemelex Xobeh, 334x Fedhas, 323x Beogh, 239x Zin, 157x Yredelemnul, 125x Elyvilon, 115x Xom, 53x Pakellas, 40x Wulndraste,
<Sequell> 38x Jiyva, 25x Lugonu

Now, I will divide each god's number in the second query by their number in the first query, giving:
  Code:
Xom 0.211009174312 ( 115 / 545 )
Elyvilon 0.280898876404 ( 125 / 445 )
Nemelex 0.281869688385 ( 398 / 1412 )
Yredelemnul 0.284420289855 ( 157 / 552 )
the Shining One 0.301444043321 ( 501 / 1662 )
Zin 0.30641025641 ( 239 / 780 )
Jiyva 0.306451612903 ( 38 / 124 )
Cheibriados 0.311734580272 ( 1400 / 4491 )
Beogh 0.315738025415 ( 323 / 1023 )
Fedhas 0.326490713587 ( 334 / 1023 )
Qazlal 0.335664335664 ( 1104 / 3289 )
Ru 0.341676792224 ( 1406 / 4115 )
Gozag 0.341765873016 ( 689 / 2016 )
Okawaru 0.348847102867 ( 4100 / 11753 )
Dithmenos 0.352236925016 ( 1118 / 3174 )
Makhleb 0.356471816284 ( 1366 / 3832 )
Trog 0.361791462561 ( 517 / 1429 )
Sif Muna 0.367483870968 ( 1424 / 3875 )
Kikubaaqudgha 0.368546845124 ( 771 / 2092 )
Ashenzari 0.378036175711 ( 1463 / 3870 )
Vehumet 0.423447069116 ( 2904 / 6858 )
Pakellas 0.434426229508 ( 53 / 122 ) (untrustworthy because new)
Wulndraste 0.449438202247 ( 40 / 89 ) (untrustworthy because new)
Lugonu 0.454545454545 ( 25 / 55 )  (an untrustworthy result because he's most often taken in the abyss)


Note that kiku, sif, ash, and veh place highly, probably not because of what they do for the player pre-lair, but because the player taking them is usually a mage. I'm not sure why Yred in particular places so low; can anyone think of an explanation? He does seem like a good early game god. Maybe it's simply because Yred is taken usually by melee characters, but he doesn't help them as much as trog or oka would.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 04:39

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

lol @ the very concept of putting chei anywhere but the SSS rank
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 04:40

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Arrhythmia wrote:lol @ the very concept of putting chei anywhere but the SSS rank

im so sorry
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 06:45

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

That query is wrong in at least three ways, because you're not filtering out boring games with !boring, because you're looking at all games, which includes players who have no idea how to use some of these gods, and because the games in the numerator aren't properly linked to those in the numerator. A somewhat more reasonable version would be (using goodplayers, because the sample sizes for greaterplayers in trunk are much smaller):

  Code:
 <gammafunk> !lm goodplayers god.worship current trunk (( br=D lvl<=9 || br=temple )) xl<=12 !zealot !boring lg:urune<=5 s=noun / (( won || lg:br!=D|ossuary|sewer )) o=%
00:42 <Sequell> 4925/10349 milestones for goodplayers (god.worship current trunk ((br=D lvl<=9 || br=temple)) xl<=12 !zealot !boring lg:urune<=5): 15/24x Jiyva [62.50%], 180/318x Trog [56.60%],
                142/258x Fedhas [55.04%], 615/1121x Vehumet [54.86%], 217/404x Qazlal [53.71%], 406/804x Ashenzari [50.50%], 417/839x Ru [49.70%], 361/727x Sif Muna [49.66%], 228/460x Dithmenos
                [49.57%], 234/477x Kikubaaqudgha [49.06%],
00:42 <Sequell> 56/117x Yredelemnul [47.86%], 341/722x Makhleb [47.23%], 43/93x Beogh [46.24%], 847/1840x Okawaru [46.03%], 200/479x Gozag [41.75%], 71/179x the Shining One [39.66%], 96/249x
                Nemelex Xobeh [38.55%], 71/190x Zin [37.37%], 32/86x Xom [37.21%], 332/894x Cheibriados [37.14%], 17/51x Elyvilon [33.33%], 4/17x Lugonu [23.53%]


If they didn't die in D or a D-only portal, they probably made it to lair (erolcha banishment or an early bailey could be filtered out, but it's more complex then). Some of these have too small a sample size. In any case, reasoning about the god is generally going to give you a better result than the queries alone, because you have no idea if someone was doing a bunch of silly runs with a given god, etc. There's no way to filter for "this run was played in a reasonably optimal way". The queries can add or take away some support for your reasoning about things that have a large effect, but you have to look very carefully at what all games you're including.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 07:42

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

DrKe wrote:(tier S A B C D E)

Do you dance on competitions?

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 07:45

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

DDDD wrote:
DrKe wrote:(tier S A B C D E)

Do you dance on competitions?

more of a fighting game player but i hear ya
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 08:25

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Berder wrote:you aren't backed by numbers

Statistically Chei is one of the most popular (the most popular???) gods for Nagas and Transmuters. As such, there is quite a lot of Chei wins.

I guess that does mean Chei is amazingly strong or something because numbers can't lie.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 09:18

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Sar wrote:
Berder wrote:you aren't backed by numbers

Statistically Chei is one of the most popular (the most popular???) gods for Nagas and Transmuters. As such, there is quite a lot of Chei wins.

I guess that does mean Chei is amazingly strong or something because numbers can't lie.

That's not even logical. Go away. Stop stretching for absurd points of contention with me.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 09:22

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

What the fuck?

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 09:30

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Berder wrote:
Sar wrote:
Berder wrote:you aren't backed by numbers

Statistically Chei is one of the most popular (the most popular???) gods for Nagas and Transmuters. As such, there is quite a lot of Chei wins.

I guess that does mean Chei is amazingly strong or something because numbers can't lie.

That's not even logical. Go away. Stop stretching for absurd points of contention with me.

how about you go away and stop shitting up my thread
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 09:40

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

DrKe wrote:how about you go away and stop shitting up my thread

It took some time to put that analysis together. You should be thanking me for providing some relevant data. But I will take my leave if you aren't interested in anything but politics and personal grudges.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 10:05

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Chei makes good combos amazing and bad combos absolutely terrible, with some variations depending on exactly what kind of character we're talking about.
(He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.)

Once you're in or past lair he becomes very strong, however.
at least if you know the proper chei game (managing a large piety buffer for slouching your way out of complete tactical failures helps a lot)

i do agree that he's pretty shitty in extended but it's not like it really matters because why would you do extended
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 10:20

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Bloax wrote:Chei makes good combos amazing and bad combos absolutely terrible, with some variations depending on exactly what kind of character we're talking about.
(He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.)

Once you're in or past lair he becomes very strong, however.
at least if you know the proper chei game (managing a large piety buffer for slouching your way out of complete tactical failures helps a lot)

i do agree that he's pretty shitty in extended but it's not like it really matters because why would you do extended

yeah, i don't think chei is shit - i agree that after you get to lair he can be pretty fun/powerful.
i put him as high as i could without alienating my inner tryhard
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 11:53

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Bloax wrote:He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.

would you rather play a HOSu of Chei or a HOFi of Chei

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 13:20

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

I would put Zin above Sif Muna for early game. Disabling multiple monsters is much better than slow channeling.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 13:44

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Sandman25 wrote:I would put Zin above Sif Muna for early game. Disabling multiple monsters is much better than slow channeling.


yeah, zin offers more than the other tier Ds, i forget the reason for not putting him at C to begin with. I do think channeling at 1* keeps Sif out of D though, but shes not a strong C

i'll go with both at C in next update
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 14:00

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

ok. any thoughts on newnem early? I know he's not that good but is he significantly better than the other D pre-lairs? I haven't played him enough to really say.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 14:29

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

I would put Makhleb in the same category with Kiku for middle game if we talking about all characters. Makhleb is better for high AC characters, Kiku is better for spellcasters. Animate Dead is only level 4 spell and Kiku protects from miscasts so it is not that hard to cast the spell even for melee characters. Request Corpses/Animate Dead/Simulacrum/Death Channel makes many levels extremely easy, there is nothing like that with Makhleb.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 15:59

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

All this chart did for me was make it clear how similar the altars for Dith and Yred are.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 15:59

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Sandman25 wrote:I would put Makhleb in the same category with Kiku for middle game if we talking about all characters. Makhleb is better for high AC characters, Kiku is better for spellcasters. Animate Dead is only level 4 spell and Kiku protects from miscasts so it is not that hard to cast the spell even for melee characters. Request Corpses/Animate Dead/Simulacrum/Death Channel makes many levels extremely easy, there is nothing like that with Makhleb.

I see where you're coming from and yeah a setup with necromancy and kiku corpse drop can destroy everything. so kiku would be top tier for me after you get that combo going. Spammable greater demon is comparable though IMO, and it's a guaranteed tool that you get with Makh. Kiku certainly has better synergy with book starts, but if you get champ makh he'll carry you long enough to get good at melee, ranged, etc. Makh also has synergy with necro and casting in general if you find sublimation of blood.

For me it comes down to the fact that Makh's tools are guaranteed to be available to you. With Kiku you're not guaranteed to get Animate Dead. If Animate Dead was guaranteed I would probably have Kiku at S, because very very little in the 3-rune game can stand up to corpse drop. So I agree with most of what you are saying but I think Makh edges it out by being more reliable. Tbh the difference between S and A for mid-game tier isn't that big, many of the A gods can simply win a 3 rune for you on the strength of their abilities alone, and kiku is one of them.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 16:00

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

XuaXua wrote:All this chart did for me was make it clear how similar the altars for Dith and Yred are.

Also, what's the altar with the big grey X on it?

Yeah, they're stupidly similar lol

The X represents atheist. (non Dg)
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 17:36

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

I have no idea why Yred isn't S considering the god plays an entire 3 rune game for you.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 17:37

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Sar wrote:
Bloax wrote:He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.

would you rather play a HOSu of Chei or a HOFi of Chei
Don't even try man.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 18:12

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Abominae wrote:I have no idea why Yred isn't S considering the god plays an entire 3 rune game for you.


i think it's safe to assume you mean midgame tier, ok

1. Yred is not that fast, undead army doesn't start steamrolling until post-orc mines typically, and he's worse than the gods that are higher tier than him during that time period

2. it's quite possible to lose your army later on or not build up a powerful one to begin with if you are weak during the building up period

3. the list assumes optimal play, as opposed to which god is the hardest to screw up, and its entirely possible to screw up yred regardless. also i know more than one good player who finds yred very tedious to play due to optimizing recalls rather than having the whole army follow you at all times. so even if i was making a lowest effort to win god list i wouldn't put yred at the top

so sure, yred can "play a 3 rune game for you" but that's both subjective and not the criteria i'm using
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 18:18

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

I think I'd probably make the following swaps from the initial chart:

Prelair: I'd sort this by how well the god guarantees Lair, so S rank is Trog/Fedhas/Ely, A rank is Lucy/Okawaru/maybe Kiku, Rank D is slow growers like Sif/TSO/Ash, rank E is actively harmful gods like Xom/Chei, and rank C is everyone else, who are fine gods but don't do all that much before Lair.

Lair through 3 rune:
Things get a little harder here. It doesn't make sense to abandon your prelair god for a post-lair 3-rune game, so separating the pre-lair and post-lair lists is tricky. I suppose the metric is "if you're already past Lair, what god gives you the best chance to successfully ascend a 3-rune character, given a character that plays to the god's strengths?" Given that, I'd revise as follows:
S: Gods that more or less guarantee you have the tools needed to survive and win this chunk of the game: Makh, Ash, Ru, Dith, Qaz
A: Gods that give you tools that make it very hard to die but which may not give you quite the same level of support as S: Zin, Ely, Kiku, Lugonu, Trog, Veh
B: Gods that do a decent job overall, but with some weak spots over the 3 Rune game: Yred, Beogh, Okawaru, Fedhas
C: Gods that are fine but not particularly remarkable in a 3-rune game: Sif, TSO, Chei, Nem, Jiyva
E: Gods that actively harm you: Xom

This list may be more YMMV than the pre-lair list.

Extended:
This looks about right to me, but I'd bump Dith up to rank A.

Note: I've never played Beogh, and I don't like new-Nem, so I tried to leave those about where they were on your chart. I could be way off with those two.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 18:26

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Sar wrote:
Bloax wrote:He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.

would you rather play a HOSu of Chei or a HOFi of Chei

Those are both melee classes so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. I'd rather play HOFi because I never ever in my life want to play a Su of anything :)

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 19:05

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Lasty wrote:I think I'd probably make the following swaps from the initial chart:

Prelair: I'd sort this by how well the god guarantees Lair, so S rank is Trog/Fedhas/Ely, A rank is Lucy/Okawaru/maybe Kiku, Rank D is slow growers like Sif/TSO/Ash, rank E is actively harmful gods like Xom/Chei, and rank C is everyone else, who are fine gods but don't do all that much before Lair.

Lair through 3 rune:
Things get a little harder here. It doesn't make sense to abandon your prelair god for a post-lair 3-rune game, so separating the pre-lair and post-lair lists is tricky. I suppose the metric is "if you're already past Lair, what god gives you the best chance to successfully ascend a 3-rune character, given a character that plays to the god's strengths?" Given that, I'd revise as follows:
S: Gods that more or less guarantee you have the tools needed to survive and win this chunk of the game: Makh, Ash, Ru, Dith, Qaz
A: Gods that give you tools that make it very hard to die but which may not give you quite the same level of support as S: Zin, Ely, Kiku, Lugonu, Trog, Veh
B: Gods that do a decent job overall, but with some weak spots over the 3 Rune game: Yred, Beogh, Okawaru, Fedhas
C: Gods that are fine but not particularly remarkable in a 3-rune game: Sif, TSO, Chei, Nem, Jiyva
E: Gods that actively harm you: Xom

This list may be more YMMV than the pre-lair list.

Extended:
This looks about right to me, but I'd bump Dith up to rank A.

Note: I've never played Beogh, and I don't like new-Nem, so I tried to leave those about where they were on your chart. I could be way off with those two.

yeah that list isn't too bad either. I will probably do the extended Dith change, he's really pretty good there. Your midgame is quite a bit different but I can see the logic behind those placements too. and yeah i don't really like newnem either
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 19:56

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Lasty wrote:A: Gods that give you tools that make it very hard to die but which may not give you quite the same level of support as S: Zin, Ely, Kiku, Lugonu, Trog, Veh
B: Gods that do a decent job overall, but with some weak spots over the 3 Rune game: Yred, Beogh, Okawaru, Fedhas

Okawaru's +5 to fighting skills is great even in the later parts of a 3-rune game, because you save a lot of exp and can use more exp for magic. That + Finesse + gifts -> I'd put Okawaru in A.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 19:57

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Ely is pretty horrible compared to Trog and Fedhas so definitely not S tier. I think Ely should be in B because the abilities require a significant amount of invo to work and still aren't that great (because you haven't started as He). Pacification encourages you to invest heavily into invo if you want to pacify humanoid enemies that are dangerous. If you're not able to pacify an enemy, then you're a lot weaker against it than a character of many other gods because your xp is in invo and not combat skills. Even with heavy investment pacification is unreliable while abilities like berserk, mushrooms and heroism always provide their boost. If you don't invest heavily into invo then why did you pick this god, if you can only pacify weak/average animals? The self-heal heals around the same as a potion of curing at 7 invo, unimpressive. I have little experience with picking Ely so my opinion is not reliable, I'll have to actually play a game to confirm the above.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 20:38

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Wahaha wrote:Ely is pretty horrible compared to Trog and Fedhas so definitely not S tier. I think Ely should be in B because the abilities require a significant amount of invo to work and still aren't that great (because you haven't started as He). Pacification encourages you to invest heavily into invo if you want to pacify humanoid enemies that are dangerous. If you're not able to pacify an enemy, then you're a lot weaker against it than a character of many other gods because your xp is in invo and not combat skills. Even with heavy investment pacification is unreliable while abilities like berserk, mushrooms and heroism always provide their boost. If you don't invest heavily into invo then why did you pick this god, if you can only pacify weak/average animals? The self-heal heals around the same as a potion of curing at 7 invo, unimpressive. I have little experience with picking Ely so my opinion is not reliable, I'll have to actually play a game to confirm the above.
having an ability that makes it impossible to die, and takes no time to use, is kind of good

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 20:39

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Sprucery wrote:
Lasty wrote:A: Gods that give you tools that make it very hard to die but which may not give you quite the same level of support as S: Zin, Ely, Kiku, Lugonu, Trog, Veh
B: Gods that do a decent job overall, but with some weak spots over the 3 Rune game: Yred, Beogh, Okawaru, Fedhas

Okawaru's +5 to fighting skills is great even in the later parts of a 3-rune game, because you save a lot of exp and can use more exp for magic. That + Finesse + gifts -> I'd put Okawaru in A.

i'm ok with him at C but if i have no support for that i'd much prefer B over A

he's certainly the best C god right now so B is not a stretch
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 21:13

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

DrKe wrote:i think it's safe to assume you mean midgame tier, ok

1. Yred is not that fast, undead army doesn't start steamrolling until post-orc mines typically, and he's worse than the gods that are higher tier than him during that time period


I'll concede Yred isn't as powerful pre-Lair as some gods, though I'd argue his *-**** abilities are stronger than those he's currently sharing a tier with.

DrKe wrote:2. it's quite possible to lose your army later on or not build up a powerful one to begin with if you are weak during the building up period


I find this scenario very implausible. Losing an army requires incredibly significant errors, and those significant errors will probably kill a player without an army. Furthermore, when you have built an army that isn't entirely disposable, you've pretty much reached the point where that army will win the game for you. This scenario also assumes the character is dependent on an army at all, which is inaccurate because Yred worshippers still get XP. He also gives three strong tools before army gifts are even a thing, all of which are very potent at the Lair/Orc stages of the game.

And, although subjective experience is fairly worthless, I've never "lost" an army with Yred, and this includes back when Recall only functioned on the level you were on.

DrKe wrote:3. the list assumes optimal play, as opposed to which god is the hardest to screw up, and its entirely possible to screw up yred regardless. also i know more than one good player who finds yred very tedious to play due to optimizing recalls rather than having the whole army follow you at all times. so even if i was making a lowest effort to win god list i wouldn't put yred at the top


Just because an option is tedious does not make it any less powerful. I'm hard-pressed to see anything in a 3-rune game more powerful than Yred's recall, but you're welcome to attempt a contradiction to that.

DrKe wrote:so sure, yred can "play a 3 rune game for you" but that's both subjective and not the criteria i'm using


If I understand correctly your criteria is "which gods give you the best chance to win with 3 runes?" In the case of this criteria, Yred, while tedious, does exactly this, and he does it much better than the gods above him.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 21:18

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Pretty good list when it comes to early/3-rune. Extended is,,,extended.

Will say Ash at D early bothers me. The two major milestones on this god are at 2 and 3 star (skillboost on curse and Clar/SInv intrinsic) On top of that the intrinsic id speeds up your earlygame gear acquisition and the detect monster ability keeps you out of rough fights. The other reason I consider Ash an 'easy' god is that hes never an outright bad choice, will apply to absolutely any character build of any species pretty equally. Perhaps a B/C looking at the other gods and where they are sitting.
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 21:24

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Abominae wrote:you're welcome to attempt a contradiction to that.

if you want me to attempt a contradiction you should probably actually address the points that i made, you completely misunderstood #1, your #2 was "yred is very strong you should never lose with him", and #3 you made into a strawman

you also gave no point of reference for a god above him being weaker. in fact you've yet to even name another god

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 21:27

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

celem wrote:Pretty good list when it comes to early/3-rune. Extended is,,,extended.

Will say Ash at D early bothers me. The two major milestones on this god are at 2 and 3 star (skillboost on curse and Clar/SInv intrinsic) On top of that the intrinsic id speeds up your earlygame gear acquisition and the detect monster ability keeps you out of rough fights. The other reason I consider Ash an 'easy' god is that hes never an outright bad choice, will apply to absolutely any character build of any species pretty equally. Perhaps a B/C looking at the other gods and where they are sitting.

I agree that Ash is not really D tier at those star levels, the problem is it takes a painfully long time to get there. If you had 3* or even 2* a decent amount of time before lair he'd be better but that usually doesn't happen.
I consider Ash a pretty easy god too and one of my favorite gods. Just gotta push through the early levels
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 21:54

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Since this was posted in DCA, I assume it is meant at least in part to give useful advice to people who are not (yet) familiar with gods. So I'm not really sure if Jiyva and Lugonu fit on this at all, since outside of rare ET vaults you don't get to worship them early at all, and waiting to worship them eventually is a bad idea if you want to win.

Lugonu is also a starting god but then you are looking at a particular background that comes coupled with a religion on turn 1, which is different from an unknown background worshiped at some point before D9. And speaking of which, really the ~optimal~ thing is probably to worship at an early altar to any strong god that is reasonable for your species/background. It is fine as a theoretical discussion, or whatever, but I don't think the image in the OP is actually helpful as far as giving advice is concerned. Having multiple ranks for different areas of the game conflates a lot (not all areas of the game are equally important, god wrath tends to be bad so you usually shouldn't switch anyway, etc.)

Anyway, I don't know what "rank" to put him in, but Yred is strong.

You get as many zombies as there are corpses (okay you eat a few that would make terrible zombies anyway) starting at * piety without any training. (At zero invocations animate remains is only 26% failure when it comes online, which is fine.) Injury mirror is expensive but very good when needed; using it early will almost wipe out your piety, but if used wisely it can get you out of a situation you would have otherwise died in. (Cf. Ely's invoked divine protection.) Injury mirror only needs a tiny bit of invocations training to be useful. Eventually you want some invoc training for a more reliable recall, and for drain life and enslave soul, but you have time, so it doesn't tend to interfere with your weapon skill goals or anything.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 22:01

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

and into wrote:Since this was posted in DCA, I assume it is meant at least in part to give useful advice to people who are not (yet) familiar with gods. So I'm not really sure if Jiyva and Lugonu fit on this at all, since outside of rare ET vaults you don't get to worship them early at all, and waiting to worship them eventually is a bad idea if you want to win.

Lugonu is also a starting god but then you are looking at a particular background that comes coupled with a religion on turn 1, which is different from an unknown background worshiped at some point before D9. And speaking of which, really the ~optimal~ thing is probably to worship at an early altar to any strong god that is reasonable for your species/background. It is fine as a theoretical discussion, or whatever, but I don't think the image in the OP is actually helpful as far as giving advice is concerned. Having multiple ranks for different areas of the game conflates a lot (not all areas of the game are equally important, god wrath tends to be bad so you usually shouldn't switch anyway, etc.)

IDK what a better forum for it would be

the jiyva/lucy is meant to be if you find a lucky altar/temple only, not waiting for them. I tried to make that clear in the op but maybe it didn't come through

zealots don't come into it, and the tiers aren't asking you to switch except to do extended. should i explicitly state that you shouldn't switch gods after achieving champion with your starting god?
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 22:04

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

and into wrote:And speaking of which, really the ~optimal~ thing is probably to worship at an early altar to any strong god that is reasonable for your species/background.

This is very true. For example, I'd say Okawaru on D:2 is worth it for every character (yes even blasters), if the goal is to get 3 runes with maximum probability.
...KoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 22:06

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

I don't know what these tiers are actually supposed to mean given specialization of gods wrt backgrounds, and I'm not sure we could ever reasonably agree on a definition, especially with something like C vs D. For instance Lasty says that for pre-lair "Rank D is slow growers like Sif/TSO/Ash", but this doesn't really make sense to me. I'm more likely to make it to lair with Sif than I am with Veh, despite the fact that Sif gifts nothing until max piety and hence "grows slowly". That's just because I have to use a book start with Sif, so my L1-4 spells in any starting book are easily enough to make it to lair in terms of damage output, so having mp-on-demand is one of the most useful things I could have. Wizardry from Veh is useful this early, but I'll generally benefit more from casting my more usable spells again than I will trying to cast the higher-level ones much earlier at low power.

Ru is much more a slow-growing god in that you can get extremely modest returns at * and **; I think Ru powers don't kick in much until right around when you're getting to Lair. Someone was saying early Zin recite is so good, but its utility is tied to a different set of chars than either Veh or Sif, and even stretching things to make the comparison between recite and channel, the latter is way more reliable. I think many of the details in a ranking like this will have a very large component based on what character we're talking about and just how many games we've actually played with the god for the same or a similar character.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 22:11

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

gammafunk wrote:I don't know what these tiers are actually supposed to mean given specialization of gods wrt backgrounds, and I'm not sure we could ever reasonably agree on a definition, especially with something like C vs D. For instance Lasty says that for pre-lair "Rank D is slow growers like Sif/TSO/Ash", but this doesn't really make sense to me. I'm more likely to make it to lair with Sif than I am with Veh, despite the fact that Sif gifts nothing until max piety and hence "grows slowly". That's just because I have to use a book start with Sif, so my L1-4 spells in any starting book are easily enough to make it to lair in terms of damage output, so having mp-on-demand is one of the most useful things I could have. Wizardry from Veh is useful this early, but I'll generally benefit more from casting my more usable spells again than I will trying to cast the higher-level ones much earlier at low power.

Ru is much more a slow-growing god in that you can get extremely modest returns at * and **; I think Ru powers don't kick in much until right around when you're getting to Lair. Someone was saying early Zin recite is so good, but its utility is tied to a different set of chars than either Veh or Sif, and even stretching things to make the comparison between recite and channel, the latter is way more reliable. I think many of the details in a ranking like this will have a very large component based on what character we're talking about and just how many games we've actually played with the god for the same or a similar character.

well i have sif and veh at the same tier for early, and i can't really agree about ru (see ??big)

there's some variance on characters but it's not massive imo, it's more the case that some characters just don't benefit from veh/sif at all, but they're low already
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 22:15

Re: God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills

Personally, I am not sure if this particular format for ranking gods makes sense. But I am speaking as a poster (not mod) here, so I didn't mean to imply you should have posted it in a different forum. It is fine here.

I don't really agree with this format for ranking gods, so aside from the specific commentary about yred (and maybe some other gods later) I don't have an alternative SABCDE ranking.
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