DrTm Skillbuild

[Ciappina]

Hello! I've been an on and off crawler for about 4 years now. Most recently managed to reach Zot:5 with a MiFi of TSO. Managed to clear Tartarus and Gehenna and got a little more hooked into doing these branches. I've always liked the DrTm concept, and would appreciate some help on how to level up my skills early on. I've been experimenting with leveling unarmed combat to about 7 before leveling my transmutations. Is it worth it to train multiple skills at once? Should I not start by training UC? Ty all!

[tasonir]

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 195003.txt

You can see the skill levels in the notes section: here's a grep of all the skill and level gains from it:

  Code:

     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 1/1
   329 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 10/23 MP: 3/3
   966 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 17/28 MP: 4/4
  2005 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 30/35 MP: 6/6
  2314 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Unarmed Combat
  2566 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 26/40 MP: 7/7
  2891 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat
  2951 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 43/47 MP: 9/9
  3087 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Unarmed Combat
  3566 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Unarmed Combat
  3566 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 32/52 MP: 10/10
  4077 | D:5      | Reached skill level 8 in Unarmed Combat
  4314 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Unarmed Combat
  4326 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 33/60 MP: 8/12
  4388 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Unarmed Combat
  4441 | D:6      | Reached skill level 11 in Unarmed Combat
  4621 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 66/66 MP: 13/13
  5401 | D:7      | Reached skill level 12 in Unarmed Combat
  5756 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations
  7006 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  7271 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 33/72 MP: 18/18
  7887 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
  8857 | D:11     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 43/78 MP: 23/23
  9065 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Invocations
  9938 | D:12     | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  9951 | D:12     | Reached skill level 13 in Unarmed Combat
 10420 | D:12     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 53/84 MP: 20/25
 12126 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 14 in Unarmed Combat
 13564 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 90/90 MP: 26/26
 13612 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 15 in Unarmed Combat
 14662 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 14873 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 1 in Earth Magic
 15288 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 16021 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
 16762 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 53/96 MP: 24/28
 17509 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 19185 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
 21058 | D:13     | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 21823 | D:13     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 111/111 MP: 24/30
 22235 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Earth Magic
 24048 | D:15     | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy
 24077 | D:15     | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 24764 | D:16     | Reached XP level 16. HP: 118/118 MP: 33/33
 25314 | D:16     | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
 25986 | D:17     | Reached skill level 10 in Translocations
 26454 | D:17     | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 27235 | Snake:1  | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 30508 | Snake:5  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 125/125 MP: 34/34
 33614 | Swamp:5  | Reached skill level 16 in Unarmed Combat
 33695 | Swamp:5  | Reached XP level 18. HP: 111/132 MP: 14/36
 34073 | Swamp:5  | Reached skill level 17 in Unarmed Combat
 35286 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 18 in Unarmed Combat
 36492 | D:18     | Reached skill level 19 in Unarmed Combat
 37099 | D:18     | Reached XP level 19. HP: 138/138 MP: 31/36
 37241 | D:19     | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
 38370 | D:20     | Reached skill level 15 in Translocations
 41088 | D:23     | Reached XP level 20. HP: 146/146 MP: 29/38
 42236 | D:23     | Reached skill level 20 in Unarmed Combat
 44807 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 140/158 MP: 37/38
 46385 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings
 48218 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 21 in Unarmed Combat
 48832 | Vaults:1 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 157/173 MP: 39/39
 50849 | D:25     | Reached skill level 22 in Unarmed Combat
 55725 | Elf:3    | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 55770 | Elf:3    | Reached XP level 23. HP: 135/198 MP: 22/40
 57909 | Elf:3    | Reached skill level 15 in Shields
 59126 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 206/206 MP: 17/41
 59329 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 23 in Unarmed Combat
 60685 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
 62088 | D:26     | Reached skill level 24 in Unarmed Combat
 62561 | D:26     | Reached XP level 25. HP: 209/213 MP: 35/43
 63122 | D:26     | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 64076 | D:27     | Reached skill level 25 in Unarmed Combat
 64697 | Zot:1    | Reached XP level 26. HP: 232/232 MP: 44/44
 66788 | Zot:3    | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
 67332 | Zot:4    | Reached skill level 26 in Unarmed Combat
 67518 | Zot:4    | Reached XP level 27. HP: 221/249 MP: 37/44
 68550 | Zot:5    | Reached skill level 27 in Unarmed Combat
 68560 | Zot:5    | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting

In retrospect, you probably don't need to go all the way to 12 UC before training transmutations, but I do tend to be lazy and jump straight to blade hands. You probably should use some spider/ice form in general, though. I apparently didn't have note_all_skill_levels on for this morgue, so it only reports every 5 levels for skills, except unarmed seems to report every level. Dunno why. So you'll have to read between the lines slightly - transmutations reports it stopped at 5, but I probably trained it to 8 or 9 which you need for blade hands (with chei int).

The basic guide lines are UC to 10ish, get some dodging/transmutations/invocations(depending on god). Then raise UC to 15ish, get some fighting, and look at your available spells to get whatever is reasonably within reach. Eventually keep getting spells online while mixing in some more fighting/dodging/UC. around 20-22 UC is good for the end game, you don't need to take it to 27, especially if you're using transmutations. 27 is still a valid option if you have enough in other skills, of course. I probably could have balanced UC and fighting a bit better, though, and ended up with 26 UC and 20-22 fighting instead of 27/18.

[ackack]

Hello! I've been an on and off crawler for about 4 years now. Most recently managed to reach Zot:5 with a MiFi of TSO. Managed to clear Tartarus and Gehenna and got a little more hooked into doing these branches. I've always liked the DrTm concept, and would appreciate some help on how to level up my skills early on. I've been experimenting with leveling unarmed combat to about 7 before leveling my transmutations. Is it worth it to train multiple skills at once? Should I not start by training UC? Ty all!

Tm tends to be a bit tough in deciding what to skill because there's so much you want.

I think your plan is reasonable. Once upon a time more Transmutations early was good because Spider Form was so important. It's still quite good --- particularly for Dr that is going to be focusing on Dodging and Dex anyway --- but less important without the speed, so getting some UC first is solid. I'd then train Transmutations with maybe 1-2 levels of Poison and/or Spellcasting to get Spider Form to something like 20% failure. Once you get there, your UC and the venomous bite should give you pretty good offense for a while, so I'd train Dodging (which will give very fast returns in Spider Form.) I think it would be reasonable to get somewhere between 25 and 30 EV in Spider Form, and then work on Fighting and more Transmutations. The -rPois of Spider Form means that you're not going to want to rely on it exclusively, so having Ice Form and/or Blade Hands ready at about the time you're rolling into Lair is nice.

It's been a while since I've played Tm, but I'm guessing by the end of Lair my skills might be something like Dodging 14, UC 11, Fighting 10, Transmutations 10, Spellcasting 6, Poison Magic 2, Ice Magic 2. EDIT: Oh yeah, and 4-6 in Evo and Invo depending on who I'm with there.

[Ciappina]

Pretty nice answer! Forgot to ask, which stat should I invest in the early game? Lvl 3 int or str? Spellcasting shouldn't be prioritized?

Edit: @ackack

i used to play a lot of transmuter when spider form was really great, guess my mind is still stuck on that. is it a general rule that defensive skills should be trained before offensive ones?

[tasonir]

Usually you do your primary offense first, then do defenses/support magic. Your stat choice should probably be between dex or int. Draconians typically don't need strength due to the lack of body armor. It would raise your melee damage, but dex/int is usually better. I'd probably do 2-3 points of dex early on, and raise int when you get higher level spells. If you plan on casting more magic that cares about spellpower, then you could just do 9 levels of int.

[ackack]

Pretty nice answer! Forgot to ask, which stat should I invest in the early game? Lvl 3 int or str? Spellcasting shouldn't be prioritized?

My stat gains as a DrTm would probably be 0-2 Int, 7-9 Dex. The modest gains in damage from Str do not compare to the very noticeable gains in EV from Dex, and since you don't have body armour or a carrying capacity there isn't any other reason to train Str. (Dex is just as good for pumping BH damage.) Tm generally doesn't care all that much about spellpower and you'll be doing a lot of melee combat.

i used to play a lot of transmuter when spider form was really great, guess my mind is still stuck on that. is it a general rule that defensive skills should be trained before offensive ones?

The conventional wisdom is "some offense, then some defense, then more offense." How much of each is kind of a matter of taste, I think. I prefer light armour based characters (this may be less true since EV in armour was changed somewhat in .16) and Dodging is almost always my highest skill when I'm done with Lair, but I usually don't start on it until my weapon delay is 1.0 or below. With access to forms, you're going to have pretty good offense even at 11 UC. You will of course want to train more, but I find usually I get more out of defensive training at that point for a while.

EDIT: Really the most important thing to know about skilling is the general point that the first few levels of a skill are very cheap and almost always have good returns. This means that it's generally a good idea to spread your xp around some rather than focusing too hard on one thing. That doesn't mean you should turn six skills on at the beginning of the game and leave them on, either. There's a balance, but usually when people learn "ah, I should focus on this early on" they usually go too far in that direction for a while.

[Rumbleguts]

you are all wrong the correct answer was OpTm^Gozag

[XuaXua]

Ice Form is helpful against hydrae.

[Ciappina]

Ok, just some feedback after these tips, i've managed to get 3~4 characters to reach the depths, after clearing orcish mines, lair and elven halls, made some mistakes regarding the slow from cheibriados, but it seems this helped to step up my game to something more stable. Ty!