Character build and beginner hints


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 5

Joined: Wednesday, 21st January 2015, 21:57

Post Wednesday, 21st January 2015, 22:39

Character build and beginner hints

Hi,

I started with this game yesterday and it seems to be commpelling.
My first choice was a warrior, but I was not able to tackle on the Orc priest at the third layer no matter how genuily I tried - do suggest to skipp it and go further before taking him on?
My second try was a DECj which was a litte bit more successful. But I died instantly when I entered D4 before I was able to react (why ruin beginner experiences with 3 gnolls hitting at me before I can do anything?).
Because it felt more playable I stuck with a DECj with my third build. This one is still living and I have some questions regarding th built.

  Code:
Cautch the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Conjurer)           Turns: 18323, Time: 02:25:29

HP  54/54        AC  5     Str  5      XL: 11   Next: 88%
MP  36/36        EV 14     Int 24      God: Sif Muna [******]
Gold 489         SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  9 memorised, 10 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     H - +3,+6 cutlass (speed)
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     k - +2 leather armour {rC+}
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     (no helmet)
rElec  .         rRot     .     (no cloak)
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     (no gloves)
rMut   .         Warding  .     (no boots)
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     ++...                    D - ring of wizardry
                                u - ring of protection from magic

@: very resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: no striking features
a: Channel Energy, Forget Spell, Renounce Religion


You are on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Sif Muna.
Sif Muna is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 13 of its levels.

You have collected 559 gold pieces.
You have spent 70 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 H - a +3,+6 cutlass of speed (weapon)
Armour
 k - a +2 leather armour of cold resistance (worn)
Comestibles
 b - 3 bread rations
 g - 15 grapes
 o - 2 rambutans
 p - 5 oranges
 w - 14 strawberries
 z - a pear
 B - 2 lychees
 G - 2 chokos
 I - 2 meat rations
 L - 8 apples
 R - 5 cheeses
Scrolls
 f - 2 scrolls of enchant armour
 h - 3 scrolls of identify
 i - 5 scrolls of remove curse
 m - 7 scrolls of fog
 q - a scroll of enchant weapon II
 r - a scroll of amnesia
 s - 5 scrolls of magic mapping
Jewellery
 a - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 l - an uncursed ring of regeneration
 u - a ring of protection from magic (left hand)
 D - a ring of wizardry (right hand)
Potions
 d - a potion of invisibility
 e - 6 potions of curing
 j - 2 potions of haste
 x - a potion of restore abilities
 A - 4 potions of brilliance
 E - a potion of heal wounds
Books
 c - a book of Conjurations   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Magic Dart                        Conjuration                  1
   *Searing Ray                       Conjuration                  2
   Dazzling Spray                     Conjuration/Hexes            3
   Fulminant Prism                    Conjuration/Hexes            4
   *Iskenderun's Mystic Blast         Conjuration                  4
   *Iskenderun's Battlesphere         Conjuration/Charms           5
 n - Sif Muna's Tome of Combat Magic
   (Sif Muna gifted it to you on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Magic Dart                        Conjuration                  1
   *Searing Ray                       Conjuration                  2
   Lightning Bolt                     Conjuration/Air              5
   Bolt of Draining                   Conjuration/Necromancy       5
   *Poison Arrow                      Conjuration/Poison           6
 t - Thadiv's Disquisition on Flamy Confrontation
   (Sif Muna gifted it to you on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Shock                              Conjuration/Air              1
   *Flame Tongue                      Conjuration/Fire             1
   *Throw Flame                       Conjuration/Fire             2
   Iron Shot                          Conjuration/Earth            6
   *Orb of Destruction                Conjuration                  7
 v - a book of Wizardry   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Summon Elemental                   Summoning                    4
   Agony                              Necromancy                   5
   *Force Lance                       Conjuration                  5
   Haste                              Charms                       6
   Invisibility                       Hexes                        6
   Spellforged Servitor               Conjuration/Summoning        7


   Skills:
 - Level 0.2 Armour
 * Level 8.1 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 16.5 Spellcasting
 + Level 13.3 Conjurations
 - Level 5.1 Charms
   Level 0.5 Evocations


You have 10 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         0%          1    None
b - Searing Ray           Conj           ######       1%          2    None
c - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           ######..     1%          4    None
d - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      ######..     1%          5    None
e - Force Lance           Conj           ######..     1%          5    None
f - Throw Flame           Conj/Fire      ######       1%          2    None
g - Flame Tongue          Conj/Fire      #####        1%          1    None
h - Orb of Destruction    Conj           ######....   4%          7    ######.
i - Poison Arrow          Conj/Pois      ######....   12%         6    ####...
I am a really newbee player but I didn't find generall explination of characters. Since I wanted to have a good damage/xp ratio I skipped the heavy stuff lying arround and went for light eq (eg. no shilds for blocking). I wonder whether my skills are to straight forward. Since I wasn't putting anything into armor even middle class enemys could kill me in an blink of an eye if they where able to hit me. Most of the lighter enemys are missing me the whole time and most of them are dead before they come even close to me. Do you think it's reasonable to go for this or is the armor to low? I also wondered whether it was a good idea to drop my old weapon (I could go some levels up again and pick it up - I have enough food) which was totally different, but provided protection. I have to admit that I mainly wear my current weapon for the speed stat, even though the effect isn't to big. Am I carring to much food? I started, because my character was hungry at first, but now my spells doesn't cause much hunger. Should I drop some stuff?
I haven't found any boots, gloves or helmets so far - is this normal? Do you have any suggestion how to work with that spells? I can learn and forget at will (ability), but I figured the most effective way is to stuck with the basic spells from the book of Conjurations - am I doing something wrong?
I also have a serious problem to tackle on invisible opponents. I was Iskenderun's Mystic until mana run out last I time and I 'accitentially' killed the opponent with the splash damage as well...even though I was casting it at the tile next to my enemy.
My main concern currently is that I used my last scroll of teleportation during my last battle so I am left without any far distance travel scrolls, so I die withing an instant if I get into a crowdy situation.

I also don't feel like my character offers much choice during combat situations apart from scrolls or potions. I bet that wouldn't be better with warrior and I apperciate that for my beginning character, but I'm very interested in builds that doesn't rely so much on scrolls and offers some choices.
Thank you for your answers!

Regards
cautch

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 46

Joined: Wednesday, 21st January 2015, 10:45

Post Wednesday, 21st January 2015, 23:20

Re: Character build and beginner hints

cautch wrote:I started with this game yesterday and it seems to be commpelling.
My first choice was a warrior, but I was not able to tackle on the Orc priest at the third layer no matter how genuily I tried - do suggest to skipp it and go further before taking him on?

Absolutely. Orc priests are by far one of the most dangerous monsters in the early game. Stay out of their line of sight because they can smite you from afar. Even once your character is experienced enough that the priests alone do not pose a threat anymore, be careful not to be swarmed by normal orcs and orc warriors while one or more orc priests shoot you from behind the front ranks. As a rule of thumb, if you think you might be able to kill them, avoid them until you are sure you can..

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cautch

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Wednesday, 21st January 2015, 23:26

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Your character actually looks pretty good. Casting poison arrow, battlesphere, and orb of destruction at xl 11 is nice - those are all very good spells that can serve you to the end of the game.

Train more fighting and dodging. Fighting increases your hp.

Be timid. Yes, you can die very fast. Try to engage enemies only when it's safe, make a beeline for the stairs if it looks like something is going to hurt you (and it's not faster than you). Don't let hydras or death yaks ever get next to you. Teleport before the bad stuff starts instead of waiting for the last minute.

A pre-emptive warning: don't train your magic skills above 20. It's a waste of xp that you could use for something else.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

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cautch

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Wednesday, 21st January 2015, 23:51

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Your armour skill is fine as it is. If you train it up, it provides a percentage multiplier to the base AC provided by your armor, which in the case of your leather armor is only 3. The +2 doesn't get multiplied, so it stays just a +2. A different character who was using plate armour would have that percentage multiplier applied to the base 10 AC of the plate, so that other character would get much better returns from training armour. Basically, your deep elf conjuror probably isn't ever going to get heavy armor and it really isn't worth the effort of trying since it would mess up your spell success rates. Other species and background combinations are much better at using heavy armor.

The speed brand of your weapon only applies its bonus to swinging the weapon. It doesn't speed up any other action you take. It's basically a decent damage boost, but if you're not using your weapon against dangerous things you might as well stick with the protection brand of that other weapon. +5AC is a pretty nice bonus at this point. If you press Ctrl + F, you can even search for 'protection' to find where you left that other weapon (and any other protection-branded equipment you've found so far) and automatically travel right to it if you want to. This is a very handy feature that means you don't have to waste time combing empty dungeon levels looking for some item you set down. The search function is pretty robust, so you can search for all sorts of item classes and modifiers. If you decide to dump your food for now, you can just search 'food' to zip over and get it back, and the search function will get it all even though you dropped various different kinds of food.

Boots, gloves, hats, and cloaks are fairly uncommon. It's a little unusual to have not seen any yet, but not exceptionally unusual. Their base benefit is usually only +1AC, so it isn't something to worry about much. They're nice when you find them.

Invisible opponents can be tricky to deal with if you don't know where they are, but if you do figure out where they are you can directly target them by casting with Z instead of z. You get a penalty to accuracy, so if they are a dangerous enemy you might want to just run away instead of fighting them. In most cases, the invisibility will eventually run out its time and they'll turn visible again, at which point you may or may not decide you want to go back to hitting them.

The best way to handle crowds is to avoid fighting them. If you can attract the attention of one enemy at the edge of the crowd, perhaps with a Magic Dart or a thrown rock, you can then run away into a safe area that you've already cleared while letting that one enemy chase you. If the other members of the enemy party haven't seen you, they won't know where their buddy is going and will usually wander off elsewhere. Then you can kill that one you allowed to chase you and start looking for the rest of the group so you can lure away another one. This works on absolutely everything that isn't faster than you, and fighting one monster is almost always safer than fighting that monster and several buddies.

If you want to use Poison Arrow effectively, you'll want to feed some xp into poison magic. A spell's spell power involves the average value of its component spell skills, so raising the lowest of the skills involved is going to raise a spell's damage output a whole lot faster than trying to raise the highest one. Low-level skills are WAY cheaper to level up than ones that you've already trained up.

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cautch

Halls Hopper

Posts: 63

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 02:01

Post Thursday, 22nd January 2015, 02:14

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Looks like your were doing pretty good.
Train Fighting, Dodge, and Stealth up a bit once you aren't getting much return from your spellcasting and spell school training.
Go back to training spellcasting and spell schools once you aren't getting much return from your Fighting, Dodge, and Stealth training.
If you find a buckler, train your shields up to 5 and USE it.

When you encounter dangerous monsters that tend to travel in packs (gnolls, orcs, yaks, elephants, bees), it is a good idea to get the attention of one or two and pull them away from the pack and kill them first. (At least until you are strong enough to wipe them out). Stealth helps with this.

Spears, tridents, and whips are pretty good weapons without any training. (venom, electricity, or protection (AC+3) are good brands early in the game.

I recommend watching a few videos by Zoopy Joobles on youtube, to learn some basic tactical play. He also says a lot of useful information in his commentary about things you may not think to ask, but are useful to know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NEpS1ipJq0 (Ice Elementalist).

I practiced as an Ice Elementalist. Now, I feel pretty confident with the other starting books. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
Wz: Blink, Repel Missiles, Mephitic Cloud, Conjur Flame
Cj: Battlesphere
FE: All spells are good. (I don't use inner flame though)
IE: Ozo's Armour

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Slime Squisher

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Joined: Friday, 2nd May 2014, 15:02

Post Thursday, 22nd January 2015, 06:58

Re: Character build and beginner hints

cautch wrote: (why ruin beginner experiences with 3 gnolls hitting at me before I can do anything?).


welcome to crawl enjoy your stay
[09:23] <Sequell> kroki is a greatplayer!
[09:23] <Sequell> kroki is a greaterplayer!
[03:57] <Sequell> kroki is a polytheist!
[21:53] <Sequell> kroki is a greatberserker!

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duvessa

Slime Squisher

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Location: Sweedledome

Post Thursday, 22nd January 2015, 12:11

Re: Character build and beginner hints

kroki wrote:
cautch wrote: (why ruin beginner experiences with 3 gnolls hitting at me before I can do anything?).


welcome to crawl enjoy your stay


It's thankfully somewhat rare, the true situations where you are killed by the dice and nothing will save you. Unfortunately going down a staircase is one of those times it can happen since everyone inrange of the stair gets a free shot as you descend and gnolls frequently spawn with spears, meaning they dont have to even be adjacent. If you have any defensive buff spells then right before walking a stair is the time to use them. Its made worse by how early in the game you were, you have little HP, few abilities/consumables and are just that much more fragile. If you do find yourself going down a stair and instantly hitting critical HP then DO NOT panic and go up, they get another round of attacks and you die, you need to blink/fear or use some other trick to survive the encounter.

Dont be discouraged by lots of early deaths, yes its a huge game and it feels like you never see any of it, but the dungeon upto around temple/lair is the most lethal place around. D1-4 kills so many characters, even those played by the experts. Once you start consistently reaching the Lair (D8-10ish) then you are doing things right and a win shouldnt be too far off.

One of the main reasons you havent found a universal beginner/character guide is that they just dont work for Crawl. Thats why we have a forum dedicated to character advice where you post a dump of your character in progress. (like you did here...always do that when asking questions about a specific char). This lets other players advise you, without seeing the character its genuinely impossible to offer much help. You wont find anyone agreeing on the correct way to play most backgrounds since a background means exceptionally little here, it influences your starting stats and equipment and then promptly ceases to play any role whatsoever. Its all a bit of a learning curve, you now know Orc Priests and Gnolls and how they work, soon enough you will begin to respect Centaurs and Ogres and Unseen Horrors, because they will smoosh some of your characters...

All of this complexity means that the guides that do exist (wiki and such) are one perspective, not guaranteed to be accurate, correct, up-to-date or even any good. The primary source of experience for me has been spectating other players in WebTiles and YouTubers. The only sort of guide you really could use is a Bestiary style thing, since much of this game is learning what is a threat, to who, and how.
Online Wins: MiFi, GrFi, TrMo, HOGl, SpEn, {DEWz, DDNe}, {OgBe, CeHu}, FoFi, VSFi, MfGl, {HaGl, VpEn, HESk}, KoAs, DsFi, TeMo

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cautch
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 22nd January 2015, 12:27

Re: Character build and beginner hints

celem wrote:It's thankfully somewhat rare, the true situations where you are killed by the dice and nothing will save you. Unfortunately going down a staircase is one of those times it can happen since everyone inrange of the stair gets a free shot as you descend and gnolls frequently spawn with spears, meaning they dont have to even be adjacent.

Except that when you descend for the first time to a given level, _you_ get the next move. But if you come back to the same level again, that benefit is gone. Also climbing the stairs back up takes time and you may be hit in the process.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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cautch, celem

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 22nd January 2015, 12:35

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Had never noticed you get first turn on first entry, thanks Sprucery. Also to the OP, if you do find the welcome a bit hot on a particular stair then get into the habit of moving to a different downstair on the level above to approach the situation from a better angle
Online Wins: MiFi, GrFi, TrMo, HOGl, SpEn, {DEWz, DDNe}, {OgBe, CeHu}, FoFi, VSFi, MfGl, {HaGl, VpEn, HESk}, KoAs, DsFi, TeMo

Dungeon Master

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Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Thursday, 22nd January 2015, 16:07

Re: Character build and beginner hints

One of the most important lessons in crawl is that you will not always be able to safely fight a given monster or group of monsters, and in these cases you must find a way to escape. Orc priests are an example of this situation for many low-level characters. Each time you die, try to think back over the choices you made that led up to the death, and the resources you still had after death that could have prevented the death if they'd been used differently -- doing this will help you learn what to avoid and when to use caution on your next character.

As far as descending stairs and instantly dying, other people have already pointed out that you necessarily get the first action upon first entering a new floor. You may still sometimes end up in situations where after descending a stair you have no way to avoid death, but that is exceptionally rare. I'm not sure it has ever happened to me, and I've played thousands of games. Still, you can take precautions like 1) using buffing spells before descending a staircase, and 2) making sure to enter a level only from stairs you know to be safe if you have multiple stair options. Overall, characters will poor defenses and low HP are most vulnerable to situations quickly going out of control, and that can be a notable downside of races like deep elves.

As a character with exceptionally low strength, heavy armour will not be a great choice for you, but shields can be fine. They just require a certain investment in the Shields skill to eliminate the penalties to dodging, and spellcasting, and attack speed. Light armour can be a fairly effective defense, but it requires some solid training in Dodging and ideally some extra dexterity. Since you'll have plenty of Int no matter what, investing a few points in dexterity could really help with your ability to survive the unexpected. You should probably stop training spellcasting for now as well -- you have plenty of mp and spell slots, and you need other things more. As another poster already pointed out, getting some poison magic (after dodging) to aid Poison Arrow is a good choice, since Poison Arrow can kill almost everything with ease. Your

Spell hunger isn't a big worry, since if you're hungry you can just eat chunks.

Until you've got poison arrow castable, your best option will usually be combining Battlesphere with magic dart or mystic blast (for big foes). Battlesphere is very mana-efficient and more than capable of taking out monsters through the end of Dungeon and beyond.

Invisible opponents are not usually that difficult to handle once you learn how. If you observe how monsters move in general, they'll move the same way while invisible, so you can mostly predict where each monster will walk. If you're not sure where the monster started or the monster has batty movement (like unseen horrors), you can retreat to a corridor so that the monster can only be in one direction. Spells like battlesphere and magic dart can't miss, so they're often a good choice against lightly-armoured or unarmoured invisible creatures. Sticky Flame will illuminate any invisible creature it hits, also.

Character tactical choices generally come from three places: items, spells, and gods. Sif Muna is a god that only offers one tactical ability (channeling), which means that you'll need to lean more heavily on your spells and items to get out of trouble. Sif Muna can be a tricky choice for a new player, since the god doesn't offer much help until you're already a fair ways into the game. You might consider trying Fedhas on your next DE for contrast -- Fedhas's * ability to create wandering mushroom friends that you can fire spells through can greatly increase your survivability; Fedhas's Sunlight ability at ** can be used to help with invisible monsters while you're still getting the hang of them.

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cautch

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 22nd January 2015, 20:57

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Don't move toward monsters. This is serious advice, and as you actually do this and figure out why it is good you will see the difference it makes.

There are some exceptions, but probably fewer than you think, so I would suggest just treating it as a hard rule for at least a while.

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damiac, duvessa

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 22nd January 2015, 21:31

Re: Character build and beginner hints

What crate said is very true. Charging a group of monsters at the edge of LOS is the best way to end up in a bad situation. Drawing those enemies back a ways does a few things: It means you're fighting in a cleared area, meaning you won't draw additional monsters. It also means you get to pick the terrain for the fight. Mostly though, it means you fight far fewer monsters at once.

The most stealth you have, the better this works, but even with no stealth it works pretty well.

Also, it looks like you're playing an old version. I'd suggest downloading the newest stable, or better yet, the newest trunk version.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 00:45

Re: Character build and beginner hints

When you see a monster who hasn't noticed you yet, throw a stone at it. This was already mentioned, but the point is that this will make it come to you without shouting to alert other monsters (in case it is a monster capable of shouting in the first place). This is a stupid mechanic, but it is effective.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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cautch

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 01:05

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Sprucery wrote:When you see a monster who hasn't noticed you yet, throw a stone at it. This was already mentioned, but the point is that this will make it come to you without shouting to alert other monsters (in case it is a monster capable of shouting in the first place). This is a stupid mechanic, but it is effective.

For people like me who find this incredibly tedious, it can be instructive to start up a slinger, find a few stacks of stones (they are generally common enough) and try slinging everything up to lair. You'll usually have enough ammo, you never move towards monsters, and they usually won't shout. Then you can see how amazingly easy "shoutless" games are, and possibly apply it to non-slings games. Most of the early power of slings comes more from underlying game mechanics than the sling itself.

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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 02:29

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Charging into a group of monsters is fun when those monsters are in the spider den and you are laying waste to everything in LOS with ignite poison :twisted:
I guess that's one of the only cases..

Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 02:38

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Thank you for the tons of hints! I haven't got trouble with multiple monsters for a long time...except some making damage and some blocking my path at the same time.
I had a invisible boss who had an blink/tele ability (I don't know what exactly) so it reached me before I could to anything and one turn later 60 % of my health was gone. I wouldn't have survived this situation without a potion of lightification.

I actually used the battleshere as my only buff quite a lot. Some enemys destroyed it and I didn't recast during the combat to avoid running out of mana (and loosing a turn). I tend to overuse Force Lance, which can cause problems if I run out of mana, but it generates at least a feeling of safety since I don't have to worry about monsters to hit or reach me at all.
I am quite unsure about the exact balance of dodging (or fighting) and spell-damage output. It felt to me like my enemys laugh at me, because I am not able to deal to much damage to them before they can approach me at a short range...at least if there are two or more of them. But I have admit that my dodging was the tool to survive afterward...so no problem so far. Btw: I am now wearing a +2/+4 mace of protection again (that ctr+f hint was very helpful). What are the numbers saying exactly?

The difficulty for me with this state is to get into a situation where I can channel my opponents into small corridor. when I have such a cleaned position I don't have much the fear at that level anymore. I figured retreating is quite a dangerous thing since I find quite often simple rats or other weak opponents blocking the corridor I'd love to retreat into. My first DECj death was actually the second time I've gone to that layer because I retreated from the other position upwards again when I saw more than 4 opponents...which I didn't want tackle on with just level 4. I am just to stupid to figure out what I did wrong that game. I didn't even had a scroll of teleportation or blinking to do anything...even if I'd have been able to. I think this game draws a lot from unpredictable dice rolls...the changing difficulty from very easy to very hard - specially comparing layers. Dieing here can be a good thing if I learn form that. I want to fail fast. I want to learn and fail as fast as possible. To be honest I didn't thought that just my third character would been able to clean more than 10 layers. It also feels to me like the upper layers are harder actually.

I am also interested in trying different characters and learn about weaknesses and strengths. I just tried a wizard but I even failed to survive just the first three floors. I made the mistake to isolate and tackle on a single isolated gnoll with level 5. A single of them didn't sound to hard, but he had a halberd. After some magic darts I tried to blink away: first miscast (12 %) and second one only took me on the other side of him. It might be that my intention to try out different things slow me down in getting fully used to a specific character, but I want to explore and see different faces of the game. My DECj held what he promised - he pulverize monsters with quite acceptable damage spells. I also am quite happy I picked Sif Muna...this got me a whole bunch of spell - even though I use mainly the old ones. As you are likely able to see I never really bothered to think whether my character is fragile or not. If I want a tank I don't pick a DECj...
What I asked for in my first post sounds likely a little bit like a confrontation: I want a character in a game where every situation is created by dice rolling algorithms that is able to offer choices about the situations I actually engage to change the fate the dice has offered. I don't care whether a single mistake kills my character - a game is about making choices and understanding the results.

Are there characters that rely more on choices during the combat phase and not only the natural options like looking out for terrain or other simple repeating patterns? What are the main differences between different species? How do they compare between early and mid and lategame? What am I doing wrong with the wizard? How does stealth actually help? What are the scrolls of fear good for? Are they just blanks? Why should I ever use a scroll of fog? How did you see that I didn't use the latest version?

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 04:21

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Stealth lets you get on the attention of a monster or two, so that you can pull them away from a group without taking on a horde you can't handle.
If your stealth is decent, you can run away from deadly foes before they notice you, and kill you.
DE gets a +3 in stealth training. It is easily trainable with very little XP cost. Do you want to raise spell casting from 16 to 16.5, or raise stealth from 0 to 8?

scroll of fog can break LOS for centaurs and cyclops that can kill you before you can take a step back.
scroll of fear can scare away monsters when you are out MP and options to kill or escape.
Consumables such as these are extremely useful in opportune times when you need to survive with anything you have.

It takes almost no XP to bring shields to 5. There are some great bucklers in the game. they offer resistances and protection brand on top of the shield and AC bonus they innately give you.

No matter how powerful your magic is, you need some Fighting and Dodge in order to take a few hits that are guaranteed to come your way eventually.

Wizard:
early on, you need to pick up a few weapons or poison darts to make you a little more killy, when magic dart isn't cutting. Chances are you'll find something decent. tridents, spears, staves are a good bet. daggers with venom. anything branded venom or electric is good for killing with a wizard.

The reason people pick wizard, in my understanding is that it starts with blink, repel missile, conjur flame, and mephitic cloud, which are all extremely useful for any mage, fighter, whatever. Even if you start as a Conjurer or something else, it's a good idea to get blink and repel missile (borderline essential).

use mephetic cloud on everything dangerous. Anything that is confused is very unlikely to hurt you. There is a small chance if you are standing next to it (which you won't be unless you are wanting to get a few shots off yourself. Being able to mephitic cloud and blink away are great skills. Worshipping Vehumet will give you all the damage spells you could dream of.

This is my humble opinion.

I still recommend watching a few vids of Zoopy Joobles.

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 07:43

Re: Character build and beginner hints

A very important point about stealth is this: it helps you survive by making monsters lose track of you when you're running away from them.

Crawl has a very diverse set of species, I'd suggest you just try them out. Any species can be a powerhouse in the late game. Some are trickier to play than others.

It is obvious that you aren't playing the latest version, because your weapon has separate to-hit and damage enchantments, you have different types of fruit in your inventory etc.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 14:54

Re: Character build and beginner hints

cautch wrote:If I want a tank I don't pick a DECj...
What I asked for in my first post sounds likely a little bit like a confrontation: I want a character in a game where every situation is created by dice rolling algorithms that is able to offer choices about the situations I actually engage to change the fate the dice has offered. I don't care whether a single mistake kills my character - a game is about making choices and understanding the results.

Are there characters that rely more on choices during the combat phase and not only the natural options like looking out for terrain or other simple repeating patterns?

Aside from things that have already been discussed (spells, tactics, stealth), the way to get more options about the situations you engage in and change the fate the dice have offered is to worship a god. Each god will give you a different set of abilities that can change how you handle situations and let you escape situations where the dice have come down unfavorably. Try worshipping a few different gods to get a sense of what they can offer you. For a DE, you might particularly want to try Fedhas, Makhleb, and Dithmenos (if your version of crawl has that god).

cautch wrote:What am I doing wrong with the wizard?

It sounds like you were trying to use Magic Dart to take down an enemy that was too dangerous. Magic Dart is usually fine against single gnolls if your Conjurations skill is high enough (probably around 6 for DE) but isn't always enough to take out a pack before they reach you. In those situations you want to make use of other spells: Call Imp creates an ally that can help fight or just block enemies while you retreat; Slow gives you more time to fire magic darts or retreat; Mephitic Cloud confuses enemies that don't resist poison, rendering them mostly harmless; Conjure Flame can be used to block hallways so that weaker monsters cannot reach you. The wizard background starts with a book that has a lot of tools in it, and figuring out which tool is right for a given situation is crucial for success.

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Post Sunday, 25th January 2015, 14:11

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Thank you again!
I have tried a GrIE and it was fun. But I got a problem with the Abyss. After I got there, I moved few steps and were 'killed from afar' (even though I was totally buffed up) by one shot an hellephant (83 damage).
Is there any way to avoid this? Are there ways to avoid being casted into the Abyss?

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Post Sunday, 25th January 2015, 14:38

Re: Character build and beginner hints

There are three ways where you can be cast into Abyss unwillingly:

1. A creature casts banishment on you. This can be avoided if you have high enough MR.
2. A creature hits you with a Distortion weapon. Don't get hit by them. Make them a high priority target.
3. You unwield a Distortion weapon (chance to banish, among other nasty effects). Don't wield a Distort weapon unless you plan on using it for a long, long time.

Abyss is typically difficult to last long in for anyone under XP18. If you do find your self dropped in too early IMMEDIATELY search for the exit out.
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Post Sunday, 25th January 2015, 14:52

Re: Character build and beginner hints

I was just level 10, so I am not to surprised that I didn't make it. Since I was dead before I saw opponents or any stairs/etc. I didn't see much of the Abyss. Are there exits at every level? Or are you sometimes forced to go deeper to find one?

Can I tell beforehand whether a creature can ban me? Is the description helpful? I guess Psyche was it this time.

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Post Sunday, 25th January 2015, 15:01

Re: Character build and beginner hints

It depends. If it's a spell, it's in the description (though some of the monsters with Banish, e.g. ogre mages, spawn with different sets of spells, so while every one potentially has Banish, many don't).
Psyche generates with a distortion weapon 25% of the time and this is a special case. For stuff like this you can check the appropriate entry in https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html.

Exits are on every level, their generation chance rises the deeper you go/if you have already found the rune. I usually just stay on Abyss:1 to escape - I think this gives the best ratio of danger/chance of exit spawning.

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Post Sunday, 25th January 2015, 16:05

Re: Character build and beginner hints

If you're playing trunk, monsters with distortion weapons will have that weapon identified so you can see it. In older versions, you just had to be careful of any monsters w/ glowing weapons, potentially.

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Post Sunday, 25th January 2015, 23:52

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Haha! How about in the next update, the game just prompts you.

"You have been struck by a weapon of distortion, would you like to be sent to the Abyss? [Y]es [N]o"

-OR-

"You have just equipped an unidentified weapon of distortion. backsies? [Y]es [N]o"
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 08:35

Re: Character build and beginner hints

cloud4ge wrote:Haha! How about in the next update, the game just prompts you.

"You have been struck by a weapon of distortion, would you like to be sent to the Abyss? [Y]es [N]o"

-OR-

"You have just equipped an unidentified weapon of distortion. backsies? [Y]es [N]o"


it really fucked over players who wanted to maintain their streak. how fun you think itd be to treat every goblin and orc with a glowing weapon as a potential streak breaker?
[09:23] <Sequell> kroki is a greatplayer!
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 08:41

Re: Character build and beginner hints

its ok if you like random things happening to you that arent really in your control you still have traps
in fact you have a lot more traps than you used to

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 08:54

Re: Character build and beginner hints

kroki wrote:it really fucked over players who wanted to maintain their streak. how fun you think itd be to treat every goblin and orc with a glowing weapon as a potential streak breaker?

Since when was streaking supposed to be fun? :)
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 11:51

Re: Character build and beginner hints

cautch wrote:Since I was dead before I saw opponents or any stairs/etc. I didn't see much of the Abyss. Are there exits at every level?

Yes. They're placed at random, just keep exploring in one direction and you'll eventually find an exit. Sometimes you have an exit right in sight when you're banished, sometimes it can take a thousand turns or more. Ashenzari's passive ability to tell you about portals on the map can dramatically reduce your expected stay in the Abyss.

Or are you sometimes forced to go deeper to find one?

If you're sent to the Abyss and feel too weak to survive, going deeper is the least thing you want because it gets more dangerous further down (but you can find the rune only on level 3 and deeper).

Can I tell beforehand whether a creature can ban me? Is the description helpful? I guess Psyche was it this time.

I guess there's a list in the Wiki, but I cannot acces that right now. Look for the "banishment" page on http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crawl_Wiki
(Never trust information in the Wiki though.)

Or from learndb (https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html): "Cast by deep elf demonologists/sorcerers, Louise and SOME (ancient) liches, wizards, ogre-magi, Erolcha, and pan lords."

If you don't know them yet, you should always look up the abilities of Uniques.

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 12:03

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Some of the uniques tend to load with a distortion weapon as well. Sonja and Psyche fall into this category. I always try to disable these two from range, and pay CLOSE attention to the melee messages if they do manage to close with me. You don't want to get abyssed if it's not on your immediate list.

These days, Orc is another place where it seems easier than usual to get abyssed, what with popcorn loading with tomahawks of distortion or poking at you with a bardiche of distortion. Pay attention here as well and disable dudes with glowing weapons from range as a priority. I've had too many characters lately who flew through Lair only to get abyssed in Orc:2 because I wasn't paying attention (if you start blinking around in battle...), and the sad thing is those characters could have flown through abyss as well, had I just visited at slightly later point in time. As it is, it's often a death sentence if you aren't strong enough and don't find a portal out in time.

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 12:17

Re: Character build and beginner hints

daggaz wrote:tomahawks of distortion

do not exist and tomahawks of dispersal don't banish on hit.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 12:18

Re: Character build and beginner hints

daggaz wrote:tomahawks of distortion

I certainly hope you just misremembered tomahawks of dispersal (which won't banish you). Or perhaps you meant hand axes of distortion.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 03:56

Re: Character build and beginner hints

kroki wrote:it really fucked over players who wanted to maintain their streak. how fun you think itd be to treat every goblin and orc with a glowing weapon as a potential streak breaker?


Yes, the devs should eliminate all possibility of accidentally dieing from something that could have been avoided by more optimal play until the game is only ostensibly referred to as a rogue dungeon crawler.

If you are trying to protect your streak, then yeah, i guess you should treat every monster wielding a glowing weapon carefully. But, because the devs are nerfing the game, you can get your streaks, but they don't really mean anything anymore because we no longer play at the level that used to be required to maintain a streak.
Last edited by cloud4ge on Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 04:37

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Distortion didn't become pre-IDed because of streaks, but rather, as far as I can tell, for reasons similar to why, when an enemy zaps a wand of polymorph at you, it no longer gives you mutations (as it did in the past). Somewhat reducing the already very low number of random, unavoidable FUs is just a byproduct of the change. (I'm not a dev, but I have never heard developers say they base decisions around player ability to streak or speed run, and I have read more than one developer saying that they explicitly do not give such matters special consideration.)

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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 04:40

Re: Character build and beginner hints

the change wasnt actually aimed at distortion in particular either

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Post Thursday, 29th January 2015, 04:56

Re: Character build and beginner hints

Sorry for my snarky reply kroki. I just don't want to finally get really good at this game, and then read in forums about how easy it is. Then again, maybe I will never master this game.. :|

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Post Thursday, 29th January 2015, 06:20

Re: Character build and beginner hints

cloud4ge wrote:Sorry for my snarky reply kroki. I just don't want to finally get really good at this game, and then read in forums about how easy it is. Then again, maybe I will never master this game.. :|

you are probably going to be reading such things in forums long before becoming "really good"
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Post Friday, 30th January 2015, 16:10

Re: Character build and beginner hints

The game is very easy in that once you have enough knowledge and technique and can maintain consistent good habits very few monsters and situations are genuinely dangerous, requiring you to think hard and carefully. It's a very roguelike definition of easy. It's not easy in that the average person can pick it up and win immediately.

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Post Friday, 13th February 2015, 00:31

Re: Character build and beginner hints

I wanted to try out something new, so I decided to take a look into a DD. Even though I made a stupid mistake (that had a cost about two charges) this character feels pretty invincible. I also good luck with eq so my character is much, much more tanky that I would expect for a level 8 character (even the ring). Since I just found a whole bunch of books I'm thinking about training some translation and spell casting as well...but I'm not really sure, because the spells are looking quite difficult, but they are obiously good suited for a lot of situations. What would you suggest? What does positive energy mean exactly?
  Code:
cautch the Quickloader (Deep Dwarf Hunter)            Turns: 4195, Time: 00:26:26

HP  38/63        AC 15     Str 16 (19) XL: 8   Next: 30%
MP  14/14        EV  6     Int 11      God:
Gold 155         SH  0     Dex 13      Spells:  0 memorised,  7 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     b - +1 crossbow
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     k - +0 chain mail
rNeg   + . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     (no helmet)
rElec  .         rRot     .     (no cloak)
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     v - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     B - +0 pair of boots
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    E - +4 ring of protection
                                z - ring of positive energy

@: non-regenerating, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: damage resistance, recharge devices, sense surroundings 1, slow healing 3
a: Device Recharging


You are on level 5 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 5 of its levels.
You have also visited: Ossuary.

You have collected 155 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 b - a +1,+1 crossbow (weapon)
Missiles
 c - 41 bolts (quivered)
 u - 16 bolts of frost
 F - a throwing net
Armour
 k - a +0 chain mail (worn)
 v - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 B - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Magical devices
 e - a wand of heal wounds (1)
Comestibles
 f - 4 bread rations
 g - an apple
 r - 3 pears
 s - a lychee
 t - 2 meat rations
Scrolls
 a - a scroll of blinking
 l - 2 scrolls of identify
 m - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 n - 5 scrolls of random uselessness
 p - a scroll labeled QONOGH ESSOSCHU
 w - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 A - a scroll labeled STAFOA TEABUPAROSU
 D - a scroll labeled MAOTAE NICU
 K - a scroll labeled FUTTOJ EGHUQ
 L - a scroll labeled LENOS MOOTHRU
Jewellery
 y - an uncursed ring of flight
 z - a ring of positive energy (left hand)
 E - a +4 ring of protection (right hand)
 O - a diamond ring
 P - a coral ring
Potions
 d - a red potion
 h - an emulsified black potion
 i - 4 potions of curing
 j - 3 potions of confusion
 o - 2 potions of restore abilities
 q - 2 potions of flight
 C - a fizzy white potion
 G - 4 potions of mutation
 H - a sedimented brown potion
 I - 2 cyan potions
 J - 4 potions of degeneration
 M - a blue potion
Books
 x - a book of Burglary   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Apportation                        Translocation                1
   Swiftness                          Charms/Air                   2
   Passwall                           Transmutation/Earth          3
   Passage of Golubria                Translocation                4
   Lee's Rapid Deconstruction         Earth                        5
   Darkness                           Hexes                        7
 N - a book of the Warp   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Control Teleport                   Charms/Translocation         4
   Phase Shift                        Translocation                5
   Warp Weapon                        Charms/Translocation         5
   Summon Forest                      Summoning/Translocation      5
   Dispersal                          Translocation                6
   Controlled Blink                   Translocation                7
   Disjunction                        Translocation                8
 Q - a book of Fire   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Fire Brand                         Charms/Fire                  2
   Ignite Poison                      Fire/Transmutation           5
   Fireball                           Conjuration/Fire             5
   Bolt of Fire                       Conjuration/Fire             6
   Delayed Fireball                   Conjuration/Fire             7
   Ring of Flames                     Charms/Fire                  7


   Skills:
 + Level 0.8 Fighting
 + Level 10.1 Crossbows
 + Level 3.8 Armour
 + Level 3.3 Dodging
 + Level 1.7 Stealth
 + Level 4.6 Evocations


You have 7 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.


Edit: Changed to code tag.
Last edited by cautch on Friday, 13th February 2015, 01:24, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Friday, 13th February 2015, 00:39

Re: Character build and beginner hints

First: use "code" tags for your pastes not "quote" tags, it makes it easier to read.

Second "Positive energy" is the name given to items that resist negative energy attacks (notably bolts of draining, shadow dragon breath, draconian ghost's breath weapon, some undead melee attacks) typically it's things that cause the 'drain' status (although that's not a 1:1 ratio exactly)

You may see things like "resist fire" abbreviated as rF+ (and succeptibility to fire would be rF-) "positive energy" is "rN+" when abbreviated. (for some reason they didn't want to call it "resist negative energy damage")
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Friday, 13th February 2015, 00:45

Re: Character build and beginner hints

DD are quite powerful, but the trick is not getting stuck without any healing, to that end there are some necromancy spells that help (notably vampiric draining) but the usual course of action is to select a god that heals you periodically, Makhleb is probably the simplest to use (he heals you "when you kill stuff") although there are other options as well.

Staying at range is also a good way to avoid damage particularly at the beginning, but be aware that crossbow bolts aren't very common in the early part of the dungeon, so keep an eye on your supply, don't use them on things that literally can't do any damage to you.
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