The Tavern

How does warding actually work? The articles in the Wiki and the Knowledge bot are too vague for me.

Warding provides rN+ and protects you from summoned monsters. That is, when they try to attack you in melee, they have a chance to "flinch away" and waste a turn (much like anti-magic attacks against spellcasters).

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For the endgame, which should I use? +10 SDA or +2 robe of resistance w/gloves of rElec? SDA would provide superior protection (with Armour skill investment), but would require me to wear a mediocre randart ring with Str+4. Robe of resistance fills in rF and rC but provides less overall protection.

Maybe this should be the general quick question thread?

I have one myself: Do rods still only train Evocations?

XuaXua wrote:The game wiki is horribly out of date.

Would you say the Knowledge Bots are a better resource to rely on, then?

Mountain dwarf fighter... I have a short sword +2/+5 and a sabre +0/+3 speed.

I'm level 7, and short blades is my main weapon skill anyways. Which should I stick with?

edit: it just got upgraded to a +3/+5 short sword

runequester wrote:Mountain dwarf fighter... I have a short sword +2/+5 and a sabre +0/+3 speed.

I'm level 7, and short blades is my main weapon skill anyways. Which should I stick with?

edit: it just got upgraded to a +3/+5 short sword

Neither is good for a fighter, which is forced to depend on that weapon for the majority of combat. Short blades will never keep up with the other common weapon classes in damage output, and no plus on a short blade is going to change that fact. Upgrade to whatever axe-class or mace-class weapon you find on the ground, or at the very least a long blade. Axes and maces are better aptitudes for you, but in any of those three cases at least you won't be capped at the very low base damage of a sabre.

If you find one of these weapons with electrocution brand, take that one regardless what plus it is. After that comes venom, freezing, or flaming. Upgrade to the highest base damage you can find, as soon as you can find it, unless you lucked into that electrocution brand.

minmay wrote:That question's not possible to answer with any semblance of effectiveness without more information about your character. At least tell us what your species is and whether you're with Trog (i.e. not casting).

Lol whoops, my bad, should have known. Here's my character log:

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.10-a0-3145-g44fcce8 character file. tormodpwns the Devastator (Deep Elf Gladiator) Turns: 103924, Time: 08:08:12 HP 158/158 (164) AC 12 Str 15 XL: 25 Next: 44% MP 44/44 EV 27 Int 30 God: Kikubaaqudgha [******] Gold 4020 SH 32 Dex 19 Spells: 14 memorised, 4 levels left Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : + - Unarmed Res.Cold : + . . Warding : . . L - +2 robe {rC+ rF+} Life Prot.: + . . Conserve : . R - +3 dwarf shield Res.Acid. : . . . Res.Corr. : . E - +2 dwarf helmet {SInv} Res.Poison: . Clarity : . v - +0 cloak of the Kettle-Drum {Dex+2 Int+3} Res.Elec. : + Spirit.Shd : . l - +0 pair of gloves of Dedodghy {rElec Acc+4 Sust.Abil.: . . Stasis : . p - +2 pair of boots of the Assassin {+Inv Dex Res.Mut. : . Ctrl.Telep.: . C - amulet of the gourmand Res.Rott. : . Levitation : . B - ring "Vinuc" {EV+3 Str+4 Dex-1} Gourmand : + Ctrl.Flight: . K - ring of life protection @: very resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy A: no striking features a: Receive Corpses, Torment, Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility }: 3/15 runes: decaying, barnacled, golden You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts. You worship Kikubaaqudgha. Kikubaaqudgha is exalted by your worship. You are not hungry. You have visited 10 branches of the dungeon, and seen 67 of its levels. You have visited the Abyss 1 time. You have visited 1 Labyrinth. You have visited 2 portal chambers: sewer, wizlab. You have collected 7718 gold pieces. You have spent 3718 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand weapons F - a +6,+7 elven sabre of pain W - the +7,+5 scimitar of Flaming Death {flame, rPois rF++ rC- MR} (You found it in a Labyrinth) It emits flame when wielded, causing extra injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. Big, fiery blades are also staple armaments of hydra-hunters. It greatly protects you from fire. It makes you vulnerable to cold. It protects you from poison. It increases your resistance to enchantments. Armour j - a +2 storm dragon armour l - the +0 pair of gloves of Dedodghy (worn) {rElec Acc+4} (You bought it in a shop on level 3 of the Vaults) It affects your accuracy (+4). It insulates you from electricity. p - the +2 pair of boots of the Assassin (worn) {+Inv Dex+3 Stlth++} (You acquired it on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) It affects your dexterity (+3). It lets you turn invisible. It makes you much more stealthy. These boots were specially designed by the Assassin's Guild. v - the +0 cloak of the Kettle-Drum (worn) {Dex+2 Int+3} (You found it on level 21 of the Dungeon) It affects your intelligence (+3). It affects your dexterity (+2). E - a +2 dwarven helmet of see invisible (worn) G - the -1 pair of gloves "Sexag" {rC+ rN+} (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients) It protects you from cold. It protects you from negative energy. L - a +2 robe of resistance (worn) R - a +3 dwarven shield (worn) Magical devices d - a wand of teleportation (5) h - a wand of teleportation (8) m - a wand of fire (5) x - a wand of cold (11) D - a wand of digging {zapped: 1} T - a wand of disintegration (4) Comestibles a - 10 meat rations Scrolls s - 3 scrolls of fog w - a scroll of acquirement y - 3 scrolls of remove curse M - a scroll of magic mapping N - 3 scrolls of identify P - 2 scrolls of blinking Jewellery q - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation t - an uncursed ring of teleport control z - an uncursed ring of protection from magic A - a +5 ring of evasion B - the ring "Vinuc" (right hand) {EV+3 Str+4 Dex-1} (You found it on level 5 of the Crypt) [ring of evasion] It affects your evasion (+3). It affects your strength (+4). It affects your dexterity (-1). C - an amulet of the gourmand (around neck) I - an uncursed amulet of conservation K - a ring of life protection (left hand) Q - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion S - an uncursed ring of sustenance V - the amulet of Cekugob {Ward -TELE Hunger rElec rPois rN+ AC+1 EV+1} (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients) [amulet of warding] It affects your AC (+1). It affects your evasion (+1). It insulates you from electricity. It protects you from poison. It protects you from negative energy. It prevents most forms of teleportation. It speeds your metabolism. Z - the ring of Bemeuf {Ice rN+} (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts) [ring of ice] It protects you from negative energy. Potions b - a potion of might e - a potion of invisibility g - 2 potions of magic k - 2 potions of curing n - a potion of heal wounds O - 2 potions of agility Skills: + Level 18.4 Fighting - Level 14.6 Short Blades - Level 14.0 Long Blades - Level 2.1 Throwing - Level 14.3 Dodging - Level 15.0 Shields - Level 7.3 Traps & Doors - Level 1.5 Unarmed Combat - Level 14.0 Spellcasting - Level 22.5 Conjurations - Level 9.9 Charms - Level 1.1 Summonings - Level 18.0 Necromancy - Level 2.1 Translocations You have 4 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Success Level Hunger a - Bolt of Fire Fire/Conj #######... Excellent 6 Honeycomb b - Regeneration Chrm/Necr ########.. Excellent 3 None c - Vampiric Draining Necr ########.. Perfect 3 None d - Dispel Undead Necr ########. Excellent 5 None e - Repel Missiles Air/Chrm #######... Excellent 2 None f - Throw Icicle Ice/Conj #######.. Excellent 4 None g - Swiftness Air/Chrm #######... Excellent 2 None h - Blink Tloc N/A Excellent 2 None i - Apportation Tloc #####..... Excellent 1 None j - Twisted Resurrection Necr ########.. Excellent 5 None k - Fireball Fire/Conj #######... Excellent 5 None l - Recall Tloc/Summ N/A Excellent 3 None m - Haste Chrm #######.. Great 6 Honeycomb n - Summon Butterflies Summ #####.... Excellent 1 None

Basically, wearing SDA nukes my spellcasting. Bolt of Fire drops to Terrible. I can train up Armour skill though, will 10 levels or so be enough to offset this malus? The main reason why I want to wear it is because I have at least 10 scrolls of enchant armour sitting around collecting dust, and I want to make use of it to get some really high AC stuff. If I enchant the SDA up to +10 and get some Armour skill, my overall AC/EV with the SDA will be considerably higher than with my robe of resistance. The downside is that I lose rF+ and rC+ from my robe. My only sources of rF are from my scimitar of chilly death (which I plan to wield in Zot:5) and some vanilla rings. My only sources of rC are from vanilla rings and some bad randart gloves (in inventory). If I don't wear the gloves or rings, I'll be walking around Zot:1-4 with no fire/cold resistance at all, but awesome AC/EV.

One more minor question: every time I load the game, it prompts me to upgrade to the newest trunk version. I say Yes every time but every time I start playing again it asks the same question. A bug?

One more: I have a scroll of acquirement. I'm thinking acquire Wand for a chance to get a /heal wounds? Worth a shot? I haven't identified some other wands yet, like hasting, paralysis and confusion.

Lugh wrote:
XuaXua wrote:The game wiki is horribly out of date.

Would you say the Knowledge Bots are a better resource to rely on, then?

Yes, but even better is to double check information from either bots or wiki with live people here or on irc, especially if you're playing trunk.

KoboldLord wrote:
runequester wrote:Mountain dwarf fighter... I have a short sword +2/+5 and a sabre +0/+3 speed.

I'm level 7, and short blades is my main weapon skill anyways. Which should I stick with?

edit: it just got upgraded to a +3/+5 short sword

Neither is good for a fighter, which is forced to depend on that weapon for the majority of combat. Short blades will never keep up with the other common weapon classes in damage output, and no plus on a short blade is going to change that fact. Upgrade to whatever axe-class or mace-class weapon you find on the ground, or at the very least a long blade. Axes and maces are better aptitudes for you, but in any of those three cases at least you won't be capped at the very low base damage of a sabre.

If you find one of these weapons with electrocution brand, take that one regardless what plus it is. After that comes venom, freezing, or flaming. Upgrade to the highest base damage you can find, as soon as you can find it, unless you lucked into that electrocution brand.

Thanks for the advice.
So far the game has been very stingy with good axes or maces, but I've reached the orc mines so I figure there'll be plenty of options there

so is there then a significant difference between base damage and damage from plus factors?

Lugh wrote:Maybe this should be the general quick question thread?

I dont mind at all if others ask questions here too, or maybe a mod can merge the threads?

I wasn't sure if the short question thread was for more advanced players, rather than the ones still thinking that Lair is a massive monument of achievement

Just FYI, if you're interested in dodge based builds, take a shot at a SpBe.
If you play carefully and don't zerk too much, you'll have no food problems.
And with all those corpses, you can get god gifts as soon as on D:3. A quickblade such early (yes, I received one of those on D:3!) is a true blessing.

runequester wrote:I wasn't sure if the short question thread was for more advanced players, rather than the ones still thinking that Lair is a massive monument of achievement

It's for any questions you think are too common or short to warrant its own thread.

runequester wrote:so is there then a significant difference between base damage and damage from plus factors?

+damage on a weapon is easy to understand. If you have a +3/+3 short sword, the +3 damage modifier randomly adds 0, 1, 2, or 3 hit points of damage to every successful hit with that weapon. Very simple, but unfortunately flat. It scales only with attack speed.

In contrast, base weapon damage is modified by your weapon skill. At 0 short blades skill, the two types of damage contributor are roughly as valuable as each other, but as you weapon skill goes up, the base weapon damage contribution goes up a lot and the +damage bonus does not.

Generally speaking, a weapon property should be truly game-changing to have any chance to tempt you into using a lower base damage weapon if a higher one is available. Usability of a shield in combination is one such game-changing property, but a moderate +damage enchantment is not.

I see. That explains a few things then. Thank you so much!
I am assuming weapon skill is a far bigger contributor than Strength as well, right?

runequester wrote:I see. That explains a few things then. Thank you so much!
I am assuming weapon skill is a far bigger contributor than Strength as well, right?

Strength and dexterity have a comically small impact on damage output, outside of a couple special cases involving transmutations magic. You should almost always pick intelligence when you have the choice, almost entirely regardless of your character.

Do you ever see a shop or a portal to a bazaar in Pan, Hell, or the Abyss?

KoboldLord wrote:
runequester wrote:so is there then a significant difference between base damage and damage from plus factors?

+damage on a weapon is easy to understand. If you have a +3/+3 short sword, the +3 damage modifier randomly adds 0, 1, 2, or 3 hit points of damage to every successful hit with that weapon. Very simple, but unfortunately flat. It scales only with attack speed.

In contrast, base weapon damage is modified by your weapon skill. At 0 short blades skill, the two types of damage contributor are roughly as valuable as each other, but as you weapon skill goes up, the base weapon damage contribution goes up a lot and the +damage bonus does not.

How does the formula work for Unarmed? I'm assuming 3 is the base damage, and the enchantments go up to +27 ?

Unrelated question: if I'm playing an Ogre who only has 3 armour slots (body, cloak, cap), and if I bind 2 slots with Ashenzari, do I get the skill bonus? And if I bind all 3, do I get as much bonus as a normal race who binds all 5 slots?

tormodpwns wrote:How does the formula work for Unarmed? I'm assuming 3 is the base damage, and the enchantments go up to +27 ?

Unarmed is a special case, and the specifics are somewhat more complicated than there's any reason to care about. 3 is the base damage for most species at 0 skill, although several have additional bonuses. At higher levels of skill, the base damage is equivalent to your unarmed skill + 3, plus you get a lower delay than is possible with all but the fastest weapons. So being at maxed unarmed combat skill is kind of like swinging around an executioner's axe of speed, only faster and you can wear a shield, too.

An unarmed combat character is often painful to get going, but high unarmed combat has a well-earned reputation for being stupid-powerful.

tormodpwns wrote:Unrelated question: if I'm playing an Ogre who only has 3 armour slots (body, cloak, cap), and if I bind 2 slots with Ashenzari, do I get the skill bonus? And if I bind all 3, do I get as much bonus as a normal race who binds all 5 slots?

That's correct.

Does armour affect Invocations (for god abilities?)

No, heavy armour plays well with god powers.

Do honeycombs do anything special? I ask because they are in yellow, and royal jellies (also yellow) have an ability other than just being food.

I think they are yellow because both carnivores and herbivores can eat them.

I think honeycombs may be yellow because honey is yellow.

I've been wrong many times before.

rchandra wrote:No, heavy armour plays well with god powers.

Do honeycombs do anything special? I ask because they are in yellow, and royal jellies (also yellow) have an ability other than just being food.

Red is for carnivores, green is for herbivores, and yellow is equally nutritious for (and can be eaten by) both.

minmay wrote:(incidentally, an executioner's axe of speed has a min delay of 4, faster than unarmed's 4.6 in trunk/5 in stable)

In trunk, the minimum delay is still 5. The difference is that you have to reach level 27 in UC.

How bad is Ashenzari wrath? It seems to be just improved monster AI (is that a big deal?) and -4 to all skills, which shouldn't be too bad... right?

tormodpwns wrote:How bad is Ashenzari wrath?

It depends. It can really hurt you, but it is also possible to prepare for it in advance. Hybrid builds manage it better than pure casters.

tormodpwns wrote:It seems to be just improved monster AI (is that a big deal?)

That's generally not too bad. You can still retreat to a cleared level whenever you want to rest, and Haste and semi-controlled Blink will still brute-force an escape when you need it even if the monsters take longer to give up. You should probably stay out of some areas of the post-endgame, though, until you clear out the wrath.

tormodpwns wrote:and -4 to all skills, which shouldn't be too bad... right?

Don't forget that stacks with losing the bonus you're getting to most of your skills, from equipment bondage. Which you've probably been abusing the entire game to cast support spells without paying for them fairly. If you had Haste barely at excellent with an amulet and ring cursed, it's at very poor now. Same with Controlled Blink. You'll probably keep Bolt of Fire or Cold because you overtrained for spell power purposes, but Fire or Ice Storm is probably gone for a while. You're also starting to take moderate shield penalties since you never got around to getting your skill up to 15, because you only needed the curse bonus to hit 15 before, and you probably lost a good chunk of EV when half your dodge skill went away. If you got your melee weapon to minimum delay before, it's not at minimum delay any more.

It's a lot easier to handle Ashenzari's wrath if you've prepared in advance, though. You can top off your support skills before informing her of your plans, and devoting a ring slot to wizardry will path some of your other remaining holes. You're going to be a little bit more fragile and your damage output will be a little less, but you can probably cope.

Ashenzari's wrath takes a long, long time to go away, though, and you have to get large amounts of xp to make any progress. I advise you wait for a relatively safe stretch of high-xp territory before you do it. Zot is pretty good, as is hunting down the Abyssal Rune. Slime is good. Hell not so much.

I've contracted teleportitis, and it has proven to be a very deadly condition (ported me into a pack of death yaks at lair 3, cost me way too many resources to escape).

Do I just run around and hope to find a cure, our should I abandon Trog (MiBe) and get Zin? I'm lvl 13 at lair 3.

There's a special vault with an angel of the shining one in Snake 4. What are the odds facing him with a level 17 mummy casting Summon Demon (power 7/10), Airstrike (power 6/10) and Imps or butterflies for cover.

There's a special vault with an angel of the shining one in Snake 4...

Note that unless there is some kind of loot other than the Angel's weapon, which you won't be able to use as a mummy, there is no incentive to take on the Angel.

JeffQyzt wrote:there is no incentive to take on the Angel.

The experience points which are always scarce for a mummy summoner.

ChokingPuppies wrote:I've contracted teleportitis, and it has proven to be a very deadly condition (ported me into a pack of death yaks at lair 3, cost me way too many resources to escape).

Do I just run around and hope to find a cure, our should I abandon Trog (MiBe) and get Zin? I'm lvl 13 at lair 3.

I don't think you are ready to handle Trog's wrath - and Zin will take a long time before removing it. I think you're just going to have to live with it for a while, though a ring of teleport control would be a godsend. Even an amulet of stasis would be worth wearing, but keep in mind the other drawbacks of it.

Questions about wizard labs:

1. How dangerous are they compared to Vault 7 (where I found one)?
2. Will the portal stay open until entered or is it timed (use it or lose it)?
3. Is there an exit portal close to the entry?

My latest CAO trunk game has all 3 of Swamp/Shoals/Snake Pit. AFAIK only 2 of the 3 are supposed to spawn? Is this a bug or a recent change? Does this mean I could get 16 runes on this run?

eeviac wrote:My latest CAO trunk game has all 3 of Swamp/Shoals/Snake Pit. AFAIK only 2 of the 3 are supposed to spawn? Is this a bug or a recent change? Does this mean I could get 16 runes on this run?

This sounds like a stair mimic to me. Have you actually entered all three branches?

evilmike wrote:
eeviac wrote:My latest CAO trunk game has all 3 of Swamp/Shoals/Snake Pit. AFAIK only 2 of the 3 are supposed to spawn? Is this a bug or a recent change? Does this mean I could get 16 runes on this run?

This sounds like a stair mimic to me. Have you actually entered all three branches?

Not yet, I just cleared Lair and noticed all 3 destinations on my auto-travel. Should I wait until I can controlled blink onto them and see what happens?

Tutankham wrote:Questions about wizard labs:

1. How dangerous are they compared to Vault 7 (where I found one)?
2. Will the portal stay open until entered or is it timed (use it or lose it)?
3. Is there an exit portal close to the entry?

1. I've only encountered the centaur garden and the cloud mage ones, but they weren't too hard, and they can have good loot.
2. Yes, it's timed. If you're going to enter, enter it immediately (I personally would).
3. I believe so, yes.

I once had 2 entry stairs to the shoals. Of course, one of the stairs was a mimic.

BTW, feature mimics are kind of funny IMHO :-)

I'm a 0.10 GhFE of Ash going for a mostly melee build. I currently have 12 unarmed combat, but I'm wearing some cursed +2 gloves of dexterity that I think is better to wear, even at the cost of +2 unarmed damage. However, I found a cursed +2,+5 lajatang {speed, MUT+, +Inv, +Lev, rF+, Int+1} that I am tempted to use (at 0 skill in Staves currently). A normally big concern is MUT+ but I'm a Ghoul so it's largely irrelevant. Is it worth switching?

I'm playing Trunk, and my spell failure %s with a couple spells are displayed in red. Lightning Bolt is 45%, and Bolt of Cold and Freezing Cloud are 100%. My spellcasting is 4.1, my Conjurations is 6.9 and my Air Magic is 2.2. I'm not wearing any armor or wielding a shield. Why are they red?

My XL12 DrSu is completely stuck with D:16 and Orc:4. Currently running from death yaks on Lair:6. I don't think I'm strong enough to explore Swamp and Snake. If Veh would hurry up and give me the damn book of Summonings already, everything would be fine, but... UGH.

Advice?

Is it worth trying to train up dodging if you are aiming at medium to heavy armour?

runequester wrote:Is it worth trying to train up dodging if you are aiming at medium to heavy armour?

If you have the experience to spare, sure. Medium armour (like the dragon armours) work well with points in both Armour and Dodging but for the heavier armours, dodging is less useful.

Is an Executioners axe of Chopping a suitable endgame weapon? Just got one gifted from Trog, and I'm considering dumping all my scrolls on it.

Lugh wrote:I'm playing Trunk, and my spell failure %s with a couple spells are displayed in red. Lightning Bolt is 45%, and Bolt of Cold and Freezing Cloud are 100%. My spellcasting is 4.1, my Conjurations is 6.9 and my Air Magic is 2.2. I'm not wearing any armor or wielding a shield. Why are they red?

According to the commit notes, the color coding indicates when miscast effects are especially dangerous. Here's the commit:
http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/bcbd6ec1f116f367c48f341ac857a8be542e269f

ChokingPuppies wrote:Is an Executioners axe of Chopping a suitable endgame weapon? Just got one gifted from Trog, and I'm considering dumping all my scrolls on it.

Yes. There are potentially better brands (freezing and holy wrath come to mind) but chopping, while the multiplier is a bit smaller, has the advantage that it applies to all targets.

I've been trying out mummies recently, and have finally come across an amulet of clarity with one. This particular mummy, though, already has a randart amulet with lots of other bonuses that I'd like in the cases when I'm not confused. Will swapping to an AoC cure confusion, once confused? Or does it need to be worn prior to any confusion begins in order to have an effect?

The Tavern

The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' thread

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