The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' thread


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 26th November 2011, 15:40

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Not a bug, the higher the enchant, the lower the enchant success rate. So if you need to enchant some cruddy weapon in the beginning just to sruvive it doesn't hurt you much in the long run.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 26th November 2011, 21:23

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

With most/all characters, should I try to ignore all skills they have negative aptitudes for, or are there certain skills that I should always try to level up regardless of my build?

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Post Saturday, 26th November 2011, 21:38

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

EW scroll failure is a feature. Up to +3 --> +4 they always work, then the chance to enchant drops significantly.
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Post Saturday, 26th November 2011, 21:44

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

ClefAria wrote:With most/all characters, should I try to ignore all skills they have negative aptitudes for, or are there certain skills that I should always try to level up regardless of my build?

Don't ignore skills that have negative aptitudes. -1 or better is a good aptitude, and -2 is workable. All of those can and in many cases (fighting, spellcasting, traps&doors, others) should be trained at any point in the game. It's generally good to play to your strengths early on, and diversify later. Even -3 or lower aptitudes are perfectly reasonable to train later in the game.
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Post Saturday, 26th November 2011, 22:05

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

ClefAria wrote:With most/all characters, should I try to ignore all skills they have negative aptitudes for, or are there certain skills that I should always try to level up regardless of my build?


Should you automatically ignore any skills you have negative attributes in? No. Heck no! Depending on your race / background combination, skills core to your build may have minuses. For instance, a SpEE makes the recommended combinations list, even though spriggans have a -1 to earth. Most casters can expect at least one of their desired spell schools to have a minus. Heck, even pure mele builds will have to overcome a negative somewhere. Remember also that attributes aren't the only thing that makes a race; you may be paying in skill points for other kinds of racial advantages.

Are their certain skills every build should level? That's... trickier. And more open to debate. In my book, I'd say most characters can benefit from at least a modicum of stealth so you can back away some of the time and pick your battles. Some traps and doors to avoid shafts, unexpected tele, or Zots. Maybe a little evocations for wands. Fighting for the hp can help even 100% blaster glass cannons. Spellcasting helps anyone besides 'zerkers, and certain schools particularly- charms for buffs and translocations for escape options.

The only problem is the list of useful skills gets a bit long. In the end, it comes down to practicality, survivability, and perhaps most importantly, opportunity cost. Yes, that would be nice, but what are you giving up to get it? Some ranks in a certain skill will help in the long run, but what do you need to stay alive in the short run? Skill training is a brutal game of economics you kind of have to get a feel for.

If you're having trouble getting the hang of the skill management game, I recommend practicing with some of the builds that require very few skills (berserkers say. Fighting,a weapon skill, maybe unarmed, maybe stealth, maybe throwing or a launcher, evasion or armor, maybe shields, traps and doors, probably evocations. Not as many choices to play with). Or, try running a few of the same characters over a few times and trying different combinations to see what works (SpEn example: rush stabbing first? Stabbing and stealth? Train spellcasting and hexes to get spell hunger down and boost hibernation success rate? Is getting short blades down to minimum delay important or not?). It can also help to look at games other people have posted, and see what they did.

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Post Sunday, 27th November 2011, 00:44

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

ClefAria wrote:With most/all characters, should I try to ignore all skills they have negative aptitudes for, or are there certain skills that I should always try to level up regardless of my build?


It's mostly been covered, but I'll note that the overall aptitude picture will definitely influence your style of play. In the early/mid game, for example, most ogres will have to sacrifice too much to obtain decent defensive stats (The exception being if you decide to use and get lucky enough to find a (large) shield). You'll want to get a handful of the cheap points to give you *some* defense, but I've done remarkably well with my ogre that rushed M&F to 22 to max out the GSC attack speed (I had just gotten my first point of armor skill when M&F hit 18 and both dodging and armor were around five when M&F reached 22). Combine this with a god like Makhleb that grants hp on kill and you'll find that you hardly notice your god awful defenses. One's main challenge now is to simply avoid getting overconfident as the combination of poor positioning and luck will result in an ogre quickly getting their ass handed to them.

Many levels later, my defensive stats are *still* only at seven, but I consider getting my escape mechanism up and running (Controlled blink) far more important than increasing my base EV from 12 to 14 (My AC is even worse, heh).

Really, though, Mageykun boils it down well: It all comes down to opportunity cost.

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Post Sunday, 27th November 2011, 02:06

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

I forgot... for the standard Okawaru --> TSO switch, am I supposed to convert to TSO before doing Vaults:8 and Zot?
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Post Sunday, 27th November 2011, 03:14

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

tormodpwns wrote:I forgot... for the standard Okawaru --> TSO switch, am I supposed to convert to TSO before doing Vaults:8 and Zot?


I wouldn't, but it depends on the character.

What's gained: rN+++, possible increase in base damage on your weapon, free EW III on your weapon, angel summons, a pbae spell that's more effective when used against unholy creatures (Some, but not many where you're at), and an ability to increase your SH.

What's lost: Finesse, might, and your weapon's previous brand.

What's largely irrelevant: Hp+mp on evil kills. There might be a few in each area, but it's not enough to rely on.

Pretty sure that about covers it. I could be mistaken on the mobs in Zot as it's been a while, but I'm pretty sure my recollection is accurate.

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Post Sunday, 27th November 2011, 03:34

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Hm, so I guess Okie would be more useful than TSO for Vaults:8 and Zot? I really want to try for some endgame runes, so I'm going to have to make a TSO switch eventually. I got a nice Demon Blade ready for blessing.
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Post Sunday, 27th November 2011, 05:16

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Be aware that you won't be able to use the demon blade while worshiping TSO as it's considered an evil item. And definitely make the switch, but do it once you've finished clearing the areas that don't have a high concentration of unholy beings (I assume you've left Crypt alone for the quick piety gain when you make the switch).

My only pure Okie win was back when banishment was still a level five translocation spell. That spell is the only reason I was able to make it through Tomb without any other type of torment resistance or summon spam.
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Post Sunday, 27th November 2011, 13:22

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Blade wrote:Don't ignore skills that have negative aptitudes. -1 or better is a good aptitude, and -2 is workable.


Indeed. In 0.8, I got a Sludge Elf EE (-2 apt) up to 26 Conjurations, could have been 27 if I'd been really trying. He was a total beast.
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Post Sunday, 27th November 2011, 21:53

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

mikee wrote:
Blade wrote:Is there somewhere we can go (besides source-diving) to see the statistics on armour and evasion that you're using, KoboldLord? I've always wondered about the specifics of their effects; it would be nice to have something to tie the numbers to.

He actually just made them up. Dodge chance doesn't scale linearly like that. See: http://i.imgur.com/0RSGG.png


Nice. Maybe you'd like to show your work, mikee? Because judging by the graphs you're posting, you don't know what you're talking about. I've seen those graphs too, and they're kind of useless for this purpose because they're graphing a relationship that nobody who's training dodging has any reason to care about.

Consider this: for purposes of a character's survival, the section of each graph between a dodge rate of 0.0 and a dodge rate of 0.5 has exactly as much impact as the section of the same graph between 0.8 and 0.9. Looking at that brown line representing 30hd that rises smoothly without any significant curvature at all on all four graphs, and it should be immediately obvious that the ~0.5 boost from 45EV to 50EV is a more valuable boost than a similar ~0.5 boost lower on the graph.

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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 00:21

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

I think he meant that your observations on %dodge rate were fine but not how much EV gives your %dodge, since the graph doesn't perfectly fit 1- .5(to-hit)/(EV).
E.g., 11 EV gives 50% against a 1HD monster, but 22EV gives a whole 80%, not 75%.

And this is because of two factors: Two rolls of EV are taken and averaged, so the roll is heavily weighted towards EV/2. Meaning chance to dodge is much better at higher ends. But then the gauranteed 2.5% miss starts to kick in a super high EV.

Edit: Although when you get down to it the whole calculation mess is silly anyways.

Early game: Skills = offense, Equip = AC/EV
Midgame: Skills = offense/defense, Equip = AC/EV, resists based on area
Late game: Skills = defense, equip = resists.

Done.
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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 15:27

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Is EVERY unidentified ring of Hunger or Teleportation CURSED by default?

I ask because sometimes a GOOD ring is cursed, but I don't believe I ever find either of the above rings UNCURSED.
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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 15:28

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

XuaXua wrote:Is EVERY unidentified ring of Hunger or Teleportation CURSED by default?

I ask because sometimes a GOOD ring is cursed, but I don't believe I ever find either of the above rings UNCURSED.


I can confirm that I've equipped an uncursed unidentified ring of hunger at least once.
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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 16:01

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Teleport is always cursed, hunger is usually cursed but not always.

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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 17:25

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

What's funny is a ring of hunger is actually worse when uncursed. Since a cursed ring that doesn't ID is often hunger, I'll try and remove it right away. But I might leave an unidentified ring on for a while until I notice being hungry more often than I should.

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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 17:34

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

There are several reasons never to leave unidentified rings on. Hunger is one. Fire and ice are two more - what if you're wearing a ring of fire and get jumped by an ice beast? That negative pip will hurt.

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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 17:44

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

fire and ice id themselves on trunk now, though.
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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 17:59

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Good point.

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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 19:44

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Grimm wrote:There are several reasons never to leave unidentified rings on. Hunger is one. Fire and ice are two more - what if you're wearing a ring of fire and get jumped by an ice beast? That negative pip will hurt.


Hunger, negative rings of slaying, and fire/ice (depending on version) are the only bad rings that don't auto-ID. Meanwhile, there are about 10 good rings that don't auto-ID. I'll take my chances.
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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 21:26

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Tiber wrote:
Grimm wrote:There are several reasons never to leave unidentified rings on. Hunger is one. Fire and ice are two more - what if you're wearing a ring of fire and get jumped by an ice beast? That negative pip will hurt.


Hunger, negative rings of slaying, and fire/ice (depending on version) are the only bad rings that don't auto-ID. Meanwhile, there are about 10 good rings that don't auto-ID. I'll take my chances.

An unknown good effect is just as useful as no effect at all. There's no reason to wear un-ID'd rings.
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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 21:35

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Blade wrote:An unknown good effect is just as useful as no effect at all. There's no reason to wear un-ID'd rings.


That unseen horror you were surprised to see doesn't care if you've ID'd your Ring of See Invisible -- I've actually put on an unidentified ring in the presence of one and been happy to see it.

un-ID'd randart jewelry can be bad news, with horrors like rF--.

Regardless, jewelry is a good place to spend your identify scrolls.
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Post Monday, 28th November 2011, 21:39

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Even randarts are restricted to rC- and rF-.
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 14:09

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

I have teleportitis 1 and fast metabolism 1. I have 2 potions of mutation and 1 cure mutation. Do I cure or is it better to try the mutations first to see if they do it?
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 14:19

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Cure. Those are terrible mutations to have, especially teleportitis. If you gamble with mut and get another bad one, there's a chance the cure mut won't take some of them away.

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 16:24

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

When exactly does Jiyva remove the walls of the Slime:6 vaults? I tend to bounce between piety level 6 and 5 a lot... do I need to stay at 6 for thousands of turns?

EDIT: I didn't realize that I was expected to dig through them and that they'd turned to translucent rock... I did get the rune in a previous game, but that was a while back.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 17:46

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

It sounds quite noobish but anyway, which are the limit values for the apts ? Recently I had a grey DrMo of Chei who attained Int 32 at D:8
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 18:45

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Roderic wrote:It sounds quite noobish but anyway, which are the limit values for the apts ? Recently I had a grey DrMo of Chei who attained Int 32 at D:8


they max at 72 (should change to 81 imo).
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 19:59

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

they max at 72 (should change to 81 imo).


72 --> 27

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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2011, 04:27

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

yes, but 27 = 3 * 3 * 3 and 81 = 3 * 3 * 3 * 3
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2011, 04:55

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Why not 128 ? (2^7)

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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2011, 11:21

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

joellercoaster wrote:I got a Sludge Elf EE (-2 apt) up to 26 Conjurations, could have been 27 if I'd been really trying. He was a total beast.


...and have just got Firestorm somewhat castable* with another one in 0.10 at XL18 (Very Good with a =oWiz). Re-learned lesson: even with crappy Conj, Sludge Elves make great elementalists.

(*redundantly though, at this stage of the game he's still completely marmalising everything with Fireball and Lightning Bolt. It's like AD&D in the bad old days. So long, Rupert.)
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2011, 20:50

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

I have a question about brands: Which brands can I infuse my kobold's crossbow with via TSO, Lugonu or Kiku? Can I get a crossbow of holy wrath, or distortion or pain or are these brands strictly off limits for ranged weapons? PLEASE DO NOTE that I'm still playing 0.8.
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2011, 21:00

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Mankeli wrote:I have a question about brands: Which brands can I infuse my kobold's crossbow with via TSO, Lugonu or Kiku? Can I get a crossbow of holy wrath, or distortion or pain or are these brands strictly off limits for ranged weapons? PLEASE DO NOTE that I'm still playing 0.8.


Those brands aren't available on ranged weapons.

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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2011, 21:09

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

What does it mean when it says "the walls and floor vibrate strangely for a moment"? I just got that when I went down the stairs to Orc:3 in trunk.

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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2011, 21:10

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

A labyrinth on the level just closed its entrance.

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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2011, 23:48

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Except I thought labyrinths don't generate in orc anymore?

A simple Ctrl-F gives this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
396cb95 | Jude Brown | 2011-01-02 12:33:37 +1000

Adjust Labyrinths generation (dpeg, elliptic, et al)
Now instead of having a flat chance of generating between (absdepth) 12
and 27 anywhere, Labyrinths will generate between (absdepth) 10 and 20
outside of Swamp, Shoals, Snake, Hive and Orc.

Finally, and like Troves and Sewers, only one Labyrinth will naturally
generate per game (outside of the Trowel card). This will also skew
Labyrinths towards appearing earlier in the game. Yay!

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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 01:44

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

It could be any of the timed portals I think...

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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 02:19

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

lucy_ferre wrote:
Mankeli wrote:I have a question about brands: Which brands can I infuse my kobold's crossbow with via TSO, Lugonu or Kiku? Can I get a crossbow of holy wrath, or distortion or pain or are these brands strictly off limits for ranged weapons? PLEASE DO NOTE that I'm still playing 0.8.


Those brands aren't available on ranged weapons.


Except holy wrath, via TSO (here's one of cerebovsquire's chars that went way) http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Elynae/morgue-Elynae-20110415-175037.txt

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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 10:04

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

JeffQyzt wrote:
lucy_ferre wrote:
Mankeli wrote:I have a question about brands: Which brands can I infuse my kobold's crossbow with via TSO, Lugonu or Kiku? Can I get a crossbow of holy wrath, or distortion or pain or are these brands strictly off limits for ranged weapons? PLEASE DO NOTE that I'm still playing 0.8.


Those brands aren't available on ranged weapons.


Except holy wrath, via TSO (here's one of cerebovsquire's chars that went way) http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Elynae/morgue-Elynae-20110415-175037.txt


Thx! Interesting...hopefully this is possible in 0.8 too. I guess distortion would be OP for a ranged weapon, one could just kite every monster until they are send to the abyss at least with above normal movement speed.

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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 15:12

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Has LRD been changed so that it no longer affects monsters on the other side of a wall? I was in a Bailey (in trunk) with lots of orcs and gnolls behind transparent and normal stone walls, and casting LRD did not have any effect on them.
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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 15:21

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Do curare needles disallow monsters that aren't aware of your presence yet from shouting when they are hit? (so you can safely pull one without waking up all the others)
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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 15:23

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Has LRD been changed so that it no longer affects monsters on the other side of a wall? I was in a Bailey (in trunk) with lots of orcs and gnolls behind transparent and normal stone walls, and casting LRD did not have any effect on them.


Yes.
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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 15:50

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

TehDruid wrote:Do curare needles disallow monsters that aren't aware of your presence yet from shouting when they are hit? (so you can safely pull one without waking up all the others)


No, but it is a perfectly sensible enhancement request. I would like to see it live!

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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 16:44

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

hayenne wrote:
TehDruid wrote:Do curare needles disallow monsters that aren't aware of your presence yet from shouting when they are hit? (so you can safely pull one without waking up all the others)


No, but it is a perfectly sensible enhancement request. I would like to see it live![/quot

On that note, it would be nice to have more/any ways to silence monster shouting, hissing, etc. on player discovery.

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Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 16:49

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

cerebovssquire wrote:
Has LRD been changed so that it no longer affects monsters on the other side of a wall? I was in a Bailey (in trunk) with lots of orcs and gnolls behind transparent and normal stone walls, and casting LRD did not have any effect on them.


Yes.



Ah, wish I'd known that before deciding to worship Ash...
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Abyss Ambulator

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Joined: Sunday, 18th September 2011, 02:11

Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 17:07

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Jeremiah wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:
Has LRD been changed so that it no longer affects monsters on the other side of a wall? I was in a Bailey (in trunk) with lots of orcs and gnolls behind transparent and normal stone walls, and casting LRD did not have any effect on them.


Yes.



Ah, wish I'd known that before deciding to worship Ash...

Ash is still incredibly helpful for Earth Elementalists, more so than perhaps any other background. Scrying to find a rune and then shattering into it, for example, is fantastic. The LRD change just sent EE*Ash from "overpowered" to "very powerful."

Ziggurat Zagger

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Location: Berlin

Post Thursday, 1st December 2011, 17:53

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

more so than perhaps any other background.


I'd say she does more for Stalkers (Dig, Passwall). The thing about runes is that you don't really need Scry to find them if you can magic map the level (she is still very good, not disputing that, knowing the actual monsters around the rune will be helpful especially for the non-spoiled).
I think a cool way to use Ash on EE should be LRDing right at the edge of LOS to kill like that; haven't tried this myself though. Skill boost is extremely helpful as always, of course.
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