Melee tactics for shard shrike flock?

[MrPlanck]

I don't get the idea with these things. I feel like I'm being totally played. Just got crushed in Cocytus. RC++ and 100 health gone in 1 turn. Couldn't even make it to exit. Fan of Gales with decent Evo didn't budge them. One seems hard enough, but four? Antaeus move over.

Anyone come across these yet?


-edited to remove some unhelpful stuff

[ackack]

Probably the best advice is to not do extended in 0.16.

I don't know the stats on these, Cheibriados doesn't have them yet. Looking at the commit it seems like they are very high speed and batty with icicle, which (especially in Cocytus, not noted for lots of corridors) seems pretty grim.

[notcluie]

from the commit:
+{
+ MONS_SHARD_SHRIKE, 'b', LIGHTBLUE, "shard shrike",
+ M_SEE_INVIS | M_UNBLINDABLE | M_WARM_BLOOD | M_BATTY,
+ mrd(MR_RES_COLD, 2),
+ 150, 12, MONS_SHARD_SHRIKE, MONS_SHARD_SHRIKE, MH_NATURAL, 80,
+ { {AT_CLAW, AF_COLD, 27}, AT_NO_ATK, AT_NO_ATK, AT_NO_ATK },
+ { 21, 3, 4, 0 },
+ 2, 18, MST_SHARD_SHRIKE, CE_CLEAN, S_CAW,
+ I_ANIMAL, HT_LAND, FL_WINGED, 30, DEFAULT_ENERGY,
+ MONUSE_NOTHING, MONEAT_NOTHING, SIZE_TINY, MON_SHAPE_BAT
+},

So yeah they hit about as hard as an ice fiend each, travel in packs and even are about as durable as one
my advice would just be not to do coc as well, these things are ridiculous

[Sandman25]

I think the idea "let's put some potentially too powerful monster and nerf it later based on feedback" is much worse than "let's put some potentially too weak monster and buff it later based on feedback".

4 bats with 3d30 Throw Icicle each, it is ridiculous.

[duvessa]

I think the idea "let's put some potentially too powerful monster and nerf it later based on feedback" is much worse than "let's put some potentially too weak monster and buff it later based on feedback".

Are you certain this was the intent? The commit message doesn't say anything about it, and from my observations, maintaining current balance is almost never considered in the first place when adding/changing monsters.

[ackack]

duvessa, you seem like a reasonable person to ask: how exactly does batty work? I know from unseen horrors and bats that speed 30 won't translate into tons of melee hits (although running away from these is not a plan), but I'm assuming you could just get unlucky and have one of these throw three icicles in a 10 aut period?

[Sandman25]

Are you certain this was the intent? The commit message doesn't say anything about it, and from my observations, maintaining current balance is almost never considered in the first place when adding/changing monsters.

No, I am not certain. I was wrong, band size can be 5 (band_size = 2 + random2(4))

[duvessa]

duvessa, you seem like a reasonable person to ask: how exactly does batty work? I know from unseen horrors and bats that speed 30 won't translate into tons of melee hits (although running away from these is not a plan), but I'm assuming you could just get unlucky and have one of these throw three icicles in a 10 aut period?

I don't really know monster AI code at all, but it looks to me like after a batty monster attacks, it starts wandering, and it starts seeking a new target after the next player action. I'm probably wrong here though.

[Greyr]

God, I already struggled with Coc as it was.

[SaidTheAlligatorKingToHisSon]

Just nuke them with slouch. And people say Chei sucks in extended...

Actually have no experience with them, but slouch works for executioners so guessing would work for these?

[Sar]

I imagine cheimoving into a flock of those being quite painful.

[xentronium]

Elec demon whip worked pretty well for me, backed by rmsl, rC++, 50 AC and 30 EV. They're not resistant to electricity and the fast attack speed helped a lot. I think I took ~50-100 damage fighting packs of 4.

[mikee]

Chei

You just RUINED this thread!

[tasonir]

While I'm not sure how batty and a ranged spell will interact, as far as I know all current batty monsters are melee only, overall it doesn't seem terribly overpowered. I guess I'll have to run extended soon to find out They only have one attack, for 27 damage + cold? Seems like if anything, their threat is entirely dependant on your rC value; I don't suspect they'd hurt that much if you have rC+++. I tend to assume if you're doing extended you have a decent AC value and EV, of course. Might make them somewhat one dimensional, but batty with a spell is still a unique niche.

[MrPlanck]

Chei

You just RUINED this thread!

Hah, I think OP ruined it plenty good.

[notcluie]

it doesn't seem terribly overpowered. They only have one attack, for 27 damage + cold? Seems like if anything, their threat is entirely dependant on your rC value; I don't suspect they'd hurt that much if you have rC+++.

you do know what throw icicle does, right?

[and into]

I haven't fought any yet, but taking 100 damage against one pack on a character with 50 AC, 30 EV, rmsl, and rC++ sounds pretty scary, especially if a badly timed hell effect can dump an ice fiend (or maybe even another shard shrike pack) on you immediately before or after the encounter.

[tasonir]

it doesn't seem terribly overpowered. They only have one attack, for 27 damage + cold? Seems like if anything, their threat is entirely dependant on your rC value; I don't suspect they'd hurt that much if you have rC+++.

you do know what throw icicle does, right?

I'm aware it isn't 100% resistible by cold resistance, yes. Neither would the 27 physical damage on their attack. The point is a lot of it is resistible, though, even if it isn't 100%. I'm not certain of the irresistible portion of throw icicle, but I think it's around 30%. And that is still reduced by AC, which as I mentioned, I'm assuming you'll have at least 20 and probably 30 of in extended. And more bulky characters can easily have 40 or 50.

[xentronium]

It probably seems worse than it is because of the general lack of choke points in Cocytus.

[Sar]

but I think it's around 30%

It's 60% irresistible damage for beam_ice (Throw Icicle and Glaciate) and 45% for beam_lava (Bolt of Magma and Fire Storm).

[MrPlanck]

It probably seems worse than it is because of the general lack of choke points in Cocytus.

I think this is a big part of it.

[tasonir]

Granted, 60% is a good bit more than I thought it was, so you'll probably need a good bit more armor in that case. I guess I'll have to go fight them to really know

[SaidTheAlligatorKingToHisSon]

@Mikee: Now all I can think about is Harry Potter and He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. Or the Wheel of Time and Shai'tan for us hardcore nerds.

Question: Do entire shard shrike flocks spawn from hell effects, or just individual shrikes? Given how brutal these things seem to be spawning a pack plus a fiend would be crazy.

[Lasty]

Band size 2 + random2(4) is a max of 6 shard shrikes (the initial one + 2 + 0-3). AFAIK they only spawn normally, not from hell effects, but I'm not sure if one of the hell effects is "spawn stuff from the normal picklist for this level."

For what it's worth, these look terrifying to me, and I'd guess that Cocytus is now the most dangerous hell branch by a fair margin. I would assume that either these will get nerfed or this is part of a plan to make all the hells much scarier (which I am not aware of).

[damiac]

Damn, the 7th level of the hells are pretty hard already, and Cocytus was really not the easiest one anyway. I suppose making EV more relevant in extended might not be such a bad idea, but it sounds like these things are a bit much.

[MrPlanck]

Quick followup on shard shrikes after two more attempts.

Yes, as expected slouch is very effective (perhaps the most effective) against them. They are trivial for a Chei worshipper (but I should note that worshiping Chei is not a tactic).

More relevant to the original question, I went into Coc7 again with a non-Chei melee-based char and had more success than in my first encounter. I met two flocks and was able to kill them all, but they were probably the scariest encounters in extended other than maybe the serpent of hell. The trick was to fill surrounding spaces with summons. Sack of spiders was most effective, they get caught in webs. Higher AC undoubtedly helped too.

[XuaXua]

God, I already struggled with Coc as it was.

TMI.

[Greyr]

God, I already struggled with Coc as it was.

TMI.

I almost edited that when I posted it. But I THOUGHT I was out of the woods at this point.

[tasonir]

I'm starting to think these might be best dealt with through EV, rather than AC. But if you have a decent total of both, don't expect these to hit you much at all. With roughly 45 ac/30-40 ev (if I bothered to cast phase shift or not) they didn't deal any noticeable damage to me. Even after fighting several packs of them, the result was always very little harm. Seems they're kind of like a gear check, imho. I also had deflect missiles.

If you're lacking repel/deflect, maybe save up a couple of agility potions for cocytus, and any other EV/AC boosts you have. Combined defenses of 60-70+ and some rC seem to make these pretty simple.