So...I don't get decks


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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 133

Joined: Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 15:59

Post Thursday, 27th November 2014, 08:07

So...I don't get decks

I like the idea of them, but they just seem to unpredictable to be of use. Throw in the added negative effect every now and then and you may as well just stab yourself in the eye. There are so many cards I hope never to draw, like the Potion. Nice idea but I'm not going to get the effect I want at that point in time and I'll probably get slowed because confirmation bias. Even knowing what's coming up is rarely helpful. I'm just completely underwhelmed with how useful they seem to be. Then again, expectations may have been to high to begin with. Then again, I am sometime pretty happy with the results. I guess its the randomness I have trouble with.

I've basically been stuck on Cj of Veh mode for too long and am trying to expand my horizons. I find that I don't understand how to survive tough situations without blowing them up from a distance. Maybe Nemex isn't the best way to go for now.;)

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1182

Joined: Tuesday, 13th September 2011, 20:34

Post Thursday, 27th November 2014, 10:27

Re: So...I don't get decks

Meh. I pick up ornates or legendary decks and ID them if i have a scroll handy, and then I'll either draw the card or hold on to the deck if its handy, otherwise I feed them to slimes. Having some evocation skill helps, too.

Never did play with Nemelex... maybe I should try it out.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Thursday, 27th November 2014, 12:01

Re: So...I don't get decks

Potion card seems fine to me, I dunno why you'd say you "never want it". Do not trust the learndb with card effects, many of the card entries have not been updated since the Nemelex changes. I do not know if the wiki is any better. The in-game description of the cards should be good though. Yes, you might want more information than what the in-game description gives you, and I can't really help that much. If anyone knows better, updating the learndb would be nice, but I'm not going to look through the source code (and I'd likely have difficulty figuring out the effects anyway since I'm not a coder).

The important thing with decks from a power-level standpoint is that you get so many of them, and then also that you can use triple draw (or stack five). In circumstances where you'd like some help but it's not vital, single-drawing cards is fine and tends to be pretty good (be very careful with escape decks, but war and destruction are ok). If you're in a dangerous situation where you really want help, then you want to use either a stacked deck or triple draw (single-draw destruction is ok; it's less powerful on the high end than either escape or war but the weaker effects are more powerful). When using escape decks you should nearly always either triple draw or stack five, since lots of cards like swap are not going to be useful most of the time.

If you want consistent power then Nemelex is not for you and probably you shouldn't bother with decks. However his power level on average is noticeably higher than many other gods (once he gets going--Nemelex is legitimately not very useful until the end of lair or so so you can argue based on that that he is not a strong god and I won't dispute it) to make up for the randomness.

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duvessa, rockygargoyle, Sar, zxc23

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 431

Joined: Saturday, 9th November 2013, 14:34

Post Thursday, 27th November 2014, 13:48

Re: So...I don't get decks

I have a lot of fun with Nemelex, but you definitely have to enjoy a bit of randomness; after all, she is the Gambler. The new decks are a bit tamer than the old ones (Dungeons and Wonders could really mess you up if you weren't careful), but they're still really powerful. Decks of War can seem a bit underwhelming (since they're less reliable at getting summons), but the buff effects actually synergize pretty well, since they apply to your allies as well as yourself. If you get into a really dangerous situation where you're being surrounded, using Deal Four on a Deck of War might be a fun way to shift the balance.

The most dangerous effect I run into with Nemelex is the occasional unfriendly summon. As such, I think it's best to use Decks of War in a tough situation before you start getting hit, so you can make a tactical retreat if necessary. Sorta like Makhleb and his demon summoning.

Also, my general rule if I draw a card that I don't like: draw another card. This is how I always approached decks of summoning in 0.13 and it seems to work just as well in trunk. Unlike Vegas, the deck is stacked in your favor, so if you keep gambling, the house (usually) doesn't win.

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2209

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Thursday, 27th November 2014, 13:53

Re: So...I don't get decks

Just a little comment. I've played only 1 game with new new Nemelex so it isn't statistically very accurate, but I've found early Nemelex extremely good and strong although not consistent: even with the first decks I received and 0 evo I was able to get things like phase shift, very ugly things, air elementals and strong dancing weapon (aka I could kill everything rng had thrown to me). I had faith on, but still got 4 decks in the first two floors, so I presume Nemelex now is very solid even in early game. Later he is silly like always
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Spider Stomper

Posts: 203

Joined: Monday, 17th November 2014, 18:23

Location: britland

Post Thursday, 27th November 2014, 16:01

Re: So...I don't get decks

Nem used to give you ridiculous things like pre-lair sun demons and i presume that hasn't changed too much (other than getting legendary decks a bit later, although stuff got condensed now so you could end up casting tornado on that sentinel with the next draw i guess)
once you get stack 5 the game is over no matter what though, you can store so many ridiculous effects (Foxfire, summon illusion if you're a caster, 1s, dancing weapons, huge nuke spells, strong buffs, cblink/tele for free, tomb card...)

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 723

Joined: Monday, 9th June 2014, 13:39

Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 02:35

Re: So...I don't get decks

crate wrote:Do not trust the learndb with card effects, many of the card entries have not been updated since the Nemelex changes. I do not know if the wiki is any better. The in-game description of the cards should be good though. Yes, you might want more information than what the in-game description gives you, and I can't really help that much. If anyone knows better, updating the learndb would be nice, but I'm not going to look through the source code (and I'd likely have difficulty figuring out the effects anyway since I'm not a coder).

I ran into this the other day looking for data on the Clouds card, which didn't exist in either the wiki or learndb. Someone added it to learndb after my search turned up nothing, but pretty much the best guide to cards now is indeed the source, if you can read it.

I was planning on editing the wiki myself to update it with the new card data, which I would get from the code itself, but the wiki has a notice asking for no new changes, and then someone in irc suggested a rumor of an official wiki in the works, so, as usual, I really don't know what is going on.

These I know from the code are cards that are no more:

  Code:
the Bargain
Battlelust
the Bones
Experience
the Genie
the Herd
the Minefield
Metamorphosis
the Portal
the Sage
Shuffle
the Trowel
Vitrification
Water
the Warp

And these cards are the current stock:

  Code:
the Alchemist
the Banshee
the Blade
the Cloud
the Crusade
the Curse
Damnation
the Dance
Degeneration
Dowsing
the Elements
the Elixir
Famine
the Feast
Focus
Fortitude
Foxfire
the Hammer
the Helix
the Helm
the Illusion
the Mercenary
the Orb
Pain
the Pentagram
Placid Magic
the Potion
the Rangers
Repulsiveness
the Shadow
the Shaft
Solitude
the Stairs
the Storm
Swap
the Swine
the Tomb
Torment
Velocity
Venom
Vitriol
Warpwright
Wild Magic
the Wraith
Wrath
Xom

With only a few exceptions (Venom, Vitriol, the Hammer, Pain and the Orb), which are close to self-explanatory, each card has its own short routine that does what it does, and these are also pretty illustrative, so even if you don't code, you can get some idea of what is going on, maybe. Those individual card routines begin in the code: here.

So, for anyone who doesn't "read code", the routines begin with "static [void/int/etc]" and then the routine name, which is for most is the card's name, then a bunch of stuff in parentheses (parameters), and then, finally, on a line by itself, all the way to the left, a left curly brace, {, which begins the code for the routine. You can ignore all of that, and while you're at it just ignore anything you don't understand and just look for words that make sense to you. The end of that routine is a matching right curly brace that is also all the way to the left. Between those braces are your answers. Thus, even if you don't know anything about programming, you could you look at the code for the Warpwright card (lines 1634-1659), and it should be close to clear from even just the human words you see that it randomly places teleport traps around you. I guess until the wiki issue is resolved, this is the best source of information. Being able to roam through source code is a good thing, though, so I'm not complaining (but I am complaining that the wiki seems to be in Limbo).

As to the OP, I always ID legendary decks, and sometimes ornate. I look for life-savers, like the Tomb or the Shaft, and keep them on hand for emergencies. A legendary Tomb card saved my last win from an ugly 11-rune death deep in a ziggurat. I loved the Mercenary card the one time I got it in a legendary, but he disappeared inexplicably at some point without his having been killed. He just got lost, and I never saw him again. Don't know if this was a buggy merc or a buggy driver, but it was a pricey experiment.

I've toyed with decks since I started playing earlier this year, but I just started looking more closely at this, and examined the above code only days ago, when I started playing a felid, so it's a timely topic for me. (Odd thing about felids and decks, though: the game says the character holds the deck in its mouth, but if you try to attack, you lose the claw attacks, and retain the bite attack, which also seems weird if not buggy.)

I can't speak to Nemelex, as I haven't tried it before. I thought the felid would be a prime opportunity, but the whole state of flux thing has me weirded out. I hadn't realized so much had been done to alter decks.

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Lasty, rockygargoyle

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8775

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 03:54

Re: So...I don't get decks

The notice about not editing CrawlWiki is gone.

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Aule

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 723

Joined: Monday, 9th June 2014, 13:39

Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 05:10

Re: So...I don't get decks

Damn that must have happened just today. :) Thanks.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 723

Joined: Monday, 9th June 2014, 13:39

Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 15:16

Re: So...I don't get decks

Cards with their general functions (from decks.h):
  Code:
Card           Effect
=============  ======================================
the Alchemist  health / mp for gold
the Banshee    cause fear and drain
the Blade      cleave status
the Cloud      encage enemies in rings of clouds
the Crusade    aura of abjuration and mass enslave
the Curse      curse your items
Damnation      banish others, maybe self
the Dance      a dance partner
Degeneration   polymorph hostiles down hd, malmutate
Dowsing        mapping/detect traps/items/monsters
the Elements   primal animals of the elements
the Elixir     restoration of hp and mp
Famine         starving
the Feast      engorged
Focus          lowest stat down, highest stat up
Fortitude      strength and damage shaving
Foxfire        swarms from the swamp
the Hammer     straightforward earth conjurations
the Helix      precision mutation alteration
the Helm       defence boosts
the Illusion   a copy of the player
the Mercenary  costly perma-ally
the Orb        pure bursts of energy
Pain           necromancy, manipulating life itself
the Pentagram  dual demons
Placid Magic   cancellation and antimagic
the Potion     random boost, probably also for allies
the Rangers    sharpshooting
Repulsiveness  or very, or both
the Shadow     stealth and darkness
the Shaft      under the user, maybe others
the Stairs     moves stairs around
Solitude       dispersal
the Storm      wind and rain
Swap           player and monster position
the Swine      *oink*
the Tomb       a ring of rock walls
the Wraith     drain XP
Torment        symbol of
Velocity       remove slow, alter others' speeds
Venom poison   damage, maybe poison vuln
Vitriol        acid damage
Warpwright     create teleport trap
Wild Magic     miscasts for everybody
Wrath          random godly wrath
Xom            's attention turns to you

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 133

Joined: Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 15:59

Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 18:58

Re: So...I don't get decks

Well, the Potion card just killed me with slow...which is to say I forgot I had a teleport scroll which could've saved me.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 173

Joined: Saturday, 23rd November 2013, 23:58

Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 21:32

Re: So...I don't get decks

http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk ... ember-2014

Revamped battle cards:
Potion has strictly-negative effects taken out, and will also apply its effects to allies if possible

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Aule

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 166

Joined: Sunday, 13th November 2011, 06:46

Post Saturday, 29th November 2014, 19:00

Re: So...I don't get decks

Nemelex is best suited for a fighter than for a caster.
"Complete guide" for Troll artificier:

Skilling: focus unarmed and train evocation
Fire wand is for early ogres, ice beasts and the like
Enslave wand is for early packs of orcs, wights, killer bees and the like
Random effect wand is for use only staying on stairs, so if instead of blasting the target you hasten it you just climb stairs.

Deck of war is always good (more useful toward "long fights", example pack of yak), single draw whenever encounter is not easy and deal 4 for real dangerous situations. Worth stacking to have an elixir ready for emergencies (at high power it is :shock: )
Deck of destruction is better for high danger low hp targets (example orc priest/wizard) not very good against undead and demons (poison and negative energy useless), single draw to soften something, deal 4 to annihilate dangerous target.
Deck of escape... escape? You are doing something wrong. Triple draw and stack 5 if you really have to.
Defense is same as war. Wonder you just triple draw. Changes I don't remember what has in it in last version.

When UC is >15 and evo >10 you can start to skill something else (fighting, armor till +1ac, shield till 9 or 15 if you find amazing large shield, a spell school of your choice).

Example of funny things what you can do later.
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16-a0-2737-g1632795 (tiles) character file.

1134185 1K the Heavyweight Champion (level 27, -6/685 HPs)
             Began as a Troll Artificer on Nov 26, 2014.
             Was the Champion of Nemelex Xobeh.
             Mangled by a sun demon (11 damage)
             ... on level 13 of a ziggurat on Nov 28, 2014.
             The game lasted 10:54:54 (100466 turns).

1K the Heavyweight Champion (Troll Artificer)     Turns: 100466, Time: 10:54:55

Health: -6/685     AC: 16    Str: 51      XL:     27
Magic:  30/42      EV:  5    Int: 11 (12) God:    Nemelex Xobeh [******]
Gold:   9856       SH:  0    Dex:  6      Spells: 12 memorised, 1 level left

rFire  + + +     SeeInvis +       - Unarmed
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     v - melded +5 swamp dragon armour
rNeg   + + .     SustAb   .     p - melded +10 large shield "Schilet" {+Inv rElec rN+ Str-1}
rPois  +         Gourm    +     U - melded +2 hat {Int+3}
rElec  +         Spirit   .     o - melded +3 cloak of Flash {+Fly EV+4}
rCorr  .         Warding  +     (gloves unavailable)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (boots unavailable)
MR     ++++.                    Y - amulet of Utzofi {Ward rElec rPois rC+ rN+ SInv Stlth+}
Stlth  ..........               d - ring of Impatience {Wiz rF+}
                                n - ring "Zoafobom" {+Fly rC+ rN+ MR++}

@: berserking, lethally poisoned, dragon-form, especially stealthy, darkness,
frozen, flying, slowed, repel missiles, drained, very slow, incredibly resistant
to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: unfitting armour, (claws 0), fast metabolism 3, gourmand, regeneration 2,
(shaggy fur 0), (tough skin 0)
a: End Transformation, Triple Draw, Deal Four, Stack Five, Renounce Religion,
Breathe Fire
}: 11/15 runes: decaying, serpentine, slimy, silver, golden, abyssal, demonic,
glowing, magical, fiery, dark


You were on level 13 of a ziggurat.
You worshipped Nemelex Xobeh.
Nemelex Xobeh was exalted by your worship.
You were very full.

You were a fearsome dragon!

You visited 12 branches of the dungeon, and saw 66 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 2 times, and saw 30 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 2 times.
You visited 1 ziggurat, and saw 13 of its levels.
You also visited: Trove, Sewer and Ice Cave.

You collected 15576 gold pieces.
You spent 5339 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Armour
 o - the +3 cloak of Flash (melded) {+Fly EV+4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your evasion (+4).
   It lets you fly.
 p - the +10 large shield "Schilet" (melded) {+Inv rElec rN+ Str-1}
   (You acquired it on level 4 of the Vaults)   
   
   It affects your strength (-1).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It lets you turn invisible.
 v - a +5 swamp dragon armour (melded)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Swamp)
 U - a +2 hat of intelligence (melded)
   (You acquired it on level 11 of the Dungeon)
Rods
 V - a +9 rod of clouds (17/17)
   (You found it on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 W - a +7 rod of destruction (16/16)
   (You took it off a deep elf sorcerer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 Z - a +4 rod of ignition (12/12)
   (You took it off a hell knight on level 5 of the Vaults)
Jewellery
 d - the ring of Impatience (right foreclaw) {Wiz rF+}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   
   It improves your spell success rate.
   It protects you from fire.
 n - the ring "Zoafobom" (left foreclaw) {+Fly rC+ rN+ MR++}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients)   
   
   [ring of positive energy]
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It lets you fly.
 t - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
   (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
 Y - the amulet of Utzofi (around neck) {Ward rElec rPois rC+ rN+ SInv Stlth+}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   
   It may prevent the melee attacks of summoned creatures.
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from poison.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It makes you more stealthy.
Magical devices
 b - a wand of digging (9)
   (You found it on level 2 of the Realm of Zot)
 g - a wand of hasting (6)
   (You found it on level 12 of a ziggurat)
 q - a wand of teleportation (5)
   (You found it in an ice cave)
 M - a wand of disintegration (10)
   (You found it in an ice cave)
 S - a wand of hasting (8)
   (You found it on level 2 of the Swamp)
Scrolls
 h - 10 scrolls of fog
 w - 21 scrolls of teleportation
 z - 9 scrolls of blinking
 F - 3 scrolls of recharging
 J - 7 scrolls of magic mapping
 L - 29 scrolls of remove curse
 N - 41 scrolls of identify
Potions
 c - 8 potions of brilliance
 e - 2 potions of berserk rage
 f - 8 potions of might
 i - 2 potions of cure mutation
 k - 8 potions of agility
 l - 16 potions of heal wounds
 C - 24 potions of restore abilities
 D - 27 potions of curing
 P - 5 potions of cancellation
 R - 8 potions of resistance
Miscellaneous
 a - a lamp of fire
   (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts)
 j - a lamp of fire
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 s - a legendary deck of defence {drawn: 3}
   (You found it on level 8 of a ziggurat)
 u - a legendary deck of defence {drawn: 1}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)
 x - a legendary deck of destruction
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 2 of the Elven Halls)
 y - a phial of floods
   (You found it on level 3 of the Depths)
 A - a legendary deck of destruction
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 2 of the Crypt)
 B - a legendary deck of war {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 10 of a ziggurat)
 E - a legendary deck of war
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)
 G - a legendary deck of war
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you in Pandemonium)
 H - a legendary deck of escape
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 6 of a ziggurat)
 I - a phial of floods
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 K - a sack of spiders
   (You found it on level 9 of a ziggurat)
 O - a legendary deck of escape
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you in Pandemonium)
 Q - a legendary deck of war
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you in Pandemonium)
 T - a legendary deck of escape {Warpwright, left: 4}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 1 of the Vaults)
 X - a legendary deck of war
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 2 of the Realm of Zot)
Comestibles
 m - 24 bread rations


   Skills:
 + Level 23,3(23,2) Fighting
 - Level 3,1 Armour
 - Level 1,5 Dodging
 - Level 0,4 Stealth
 - Level 15,0(14,9) Shields
 O Level 27(26,9) Unarmed Combat
 - Level 8,0(7,9) Spellcasting
 - Level 6,0(5,9) Charms
 + Level 13,6 Necromancy
 - Level 20,0(19,9) Transmutations
 - Level 10,0(9,9) Earth Magic
 + Level 23,9(23,8) Evocations


You had one spell level left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ####......   1%          3    ###....
b - Dragon Form           Trmt           #####.....   1%          7    #######
c - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ##....       4%          2    #......
d - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          12%         2    #......
e - Sublimation of Blood  Necr           ####......   1%          2    #......
f - Hydra Form            Trmt           #####.....   1%          6    #######
g - Control Teleport      Chrm/Tloc      ##........   28%         4    ####...
h - Statue Form           Trmt/Erth      #####....    3%          6    #######
i - Summon Butterflies    Summ           #.......     9%          1    None
j - Apportation           Tloc           #.........   9%          1    None
k - Cigotuvi's Embrace    Necr           ####......   1%          5    ######.
l - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      #####...     1%          2    #......


When you are a dragon with 400+hp, 50+str, fortitude, blade and helm you feel just godlike. But you can die stupidly if you berserk just to be cool (it's cool to have 600+ hp but when you get tormented and can't draw cards that's the result).

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zxc23

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5331

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 2nd December 2014, 23:04

Re: So...I don't get decks

Dragon form: not even once.

Statue form would prevent deaths to torment in most cases, and you'd have more than 16 ac 5 ev. This may be something of a tangent to the point though, which is evocations are good.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8775

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 3rd December 2014, 02:53

Re: So...I don't get decks

tasonir wrote:Dragon form: not even once.

Statue form would prevent deaths to torment in most cases, and you'd have more than 16 ac 5 ev.
...

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cerebovssquire

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 133

Joined: Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 15:59

Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 22:13

Re: So...I don't get decks

So I've started another SpAs of Nem, becuase it seems like decks should be awesome. Especially from the above comments. My previous SpAs of Oka was so frickin awesome that once again I was lured in to hubris tabbed my way to suicide. So I still think a SpAs is awesome, but this Nemelex thing just isn't working for me. I really do use up wands and such more than on any other character, but with decks I find that is all I am doing, using them up. Helm, bugger, Elixir, wrong timing, Crusade, completely useless on plain decks....I agree some effects can be quite powerfull, but the problem is they are situationally powerfull. If I don't get what I need right now I may as well be an atheist for all the use it is.

Of course, this is all my problem. Maybe I should just give up on Nem as not being suited to my temperament. Ah well, I still have a living SpAs of Nem so giving up is not an option.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 881

Joined: Sunday, 30th December 2012, 05:26

Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 22:36

Re: So...I don't get decks

it's not that complicated, just pick short swords at the beginning, train dodging, and hope Xom doesn't kill you before you get a spellbook

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