Hydra form?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Mines Malingerer

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Joined: Thursday, 9th August 2012, 13:56

Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 12:36

Hydra form?

Has anyone tried it yet?

I wanna test it out but given it doesnt have a wiki page yet, i have a few questions.
does it beefit more from str of dex? Im guessing str, but I'd like your opinion.

Other than axe effect with meelee hits, does it do anything else?
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 13:21

Re: Hydra form?

According to the Learndb (which is more current than the wiki in most cases):

Strongly spellpower-dependent level 6 form that gives a powerful cleaving attack (when heads >= 2). Your heads can be chopped off, grown, and cauterized just like the monster! Edible foes smaller than you are devoured when killed, healing you based on HD. Beware the AC cost...
Unlike with monsters, if you lose your last head, the form simply ends; you don't (necessarily) die. (Also unlike monster hydras, you don't heal when heads are chopped off.)

Doesn't have much in the way of numbers, but in my own testing I have found the duration to be pretty short. With 17 int and 27 transmutation the average amount of turns I could spend in hydra form was (I literally just cast hydra form and '.' until the duration ended) around 8-ish turns.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 15:08

Re: Hydra form?

That's really short... why is it so short?
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 15:13

Re: Hydra form?

Beats me! Maybe to stay in line with summon hydra...? Honestly, it's a bit disappointing.
Given the highly offensive nature of the form I think it would be neat for a 'consumed' monster to have a chance of extending the duration.
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Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 16:37

Re: Hydra form?

I found its duration so annoying that I'd just pretend it doesn't exist yet
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 16:58

Re: Hydra form?

^ I'm with ya
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 17:55

Re: Hydra form?

I did some testing with it before it got into trunk, and I found that with a reasonable-ish approximation of post-Lair skills (human, 18 UC, 15 TM, 14 Fighting, 15 Dodging), even with the terrible duration and potentially having to recast in mid-form, it effectively killed the heck out of everything from being completely surrounded with yaks 2x deep to having 4-5 draconian zealots scattered within a few tiles around you. The healing effect is very strong.

I don't think the numbers changed since I tested, but I could be wrong.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 18:27

Re: Hydra form?

From my experience it's only a weird form but it isn't really better than blade hand (only an impression, but a 6x heads hydra seems to me to have lower damage output than bh, at least against foes with good ac and obviosly you have also worse defences with the former). And during prolonged fights (e.g. orc/yak pack) I've had to cast up 4 or 5 times!

I don't believe healing effect is really important: against dangerous enemies it's a gamble - if you manage to kill some while surrounded then yes, you can easily get from 20% hp to 100%. But normally you don't say "hei gentle yaks with deadly eyes please surround me and if I manage to kill a couple of you before you kill me then I'll still have enough health to made the same gamble with the others around". E.g. despite having good defence/stat/whatever (I had also a +5 ac ring) when I faced two or three death yaks together in the lair ending (two or three at time) the result was usually the same: I and them got to the verge of death (first to get the next blow was dead).
Then yes it's fun to clear a green rats (or plain yak) pack in two turns getting healed and engorged meanwhile, but whatever.

For me, Hydra Form is good against a single blade user (then its damage rapidly outclass bh) and if there are some weak enemies around then it's even better because you can get some good healing (e.g. fighting a warlord with plain orc around).
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 19:30

Re: Hydra form?

It seem to be the least efficient of the level 6 spells. Bar maybe iron shot, poison arrow, and some necro/translo spells nobody uses.

And of course it encourages getting surrounded (since otherwise no healing means you're vulnerable) which is just tactically bad, obviously*. As Hydra form stands, the high cost and lack of defense (not to mention utility) would lead me to pass on it and get BH instead.


*Somebody tried to argue with me on the IRC that axes were bad because it encourages new players to get surrounded... I thought that was funny.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 20:27

Re: Hydra form?

Greyr wrote:It seem to be the least efficient of the level 6 spells. Bar maybe iron shot, poison arrow...


what?

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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 20:46

Re: Hydra form?

Clouds, dmsl, haste, bolts, etc are all much more MP efficient than casting hydra form five times just to clear a band of whatever.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 21:02

Re: Hydra form?

If you get 8 turns of hydra form then that's going to be more mp-efficient than casting bolt spells, unless hydra form doesn't actually do damage.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 22:19

Re: Hydra form?

What I'm trying to say is Hydra form is bad and there's better spells out there at level 6.
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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th October 2014, 22:58

Re: Hydra form?

the only other level 6 Transmutation is Statue Form and it's dual school and I am not sure it is better
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Saturday, 11th October 2014, 08:48

Re: Hydra form?

Greyr wrote:What I'm trying to say is Hydra form is bad and there's better spells out there at level 6.

hydra form is fucking amazing just like every other transmutation (except necromutation and beastly appendage)
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 27th November 2014, 15:30

Re: Hydra form?

So, anyone know how damage is calculated in hydra form? And what exactly is meant by "strongly spell power dependent?" Does the number of heads affect the number of enemies you can attack at once, and can you ever bite the same enemy more than once per attack?

Also, subjective experience seems to indicate that accuracy is quite bad, I was standing next to an elf fighter and repeatedly failed to hit it until hydra form wore off and I cast Blade Hands instead. But… clustering illusion and all.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 27th November 2014, 16:37

Re: Hydra form?

Jeremiah wrote:Also, subjective experience seems to indicate that accuracy is quite bad, I was standing next to an elf fighter and repeatedly failed to hit it until hydra form wore off and I cast Blade Hands instead. But… clustering illusion and all.
Melee accuracy in general is bad. That's probably all you're noticing.

Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 14:22

Re: Hydra form?

Hydra form base damage is 2 + 3 per head (for the first 10 heads), so being a 6-headed hydra means 20 base damage.

By contrast, Blade Hands is 8 + (str+dex)/3 base damage, so at 18 str and 18 dex, it has 20 base damage.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 14:49

Re: Hydra form?

Lasty wrote:Hydra form base damage is 2 + 3 per head (for the first 10 heads), so being a 6-headed hydra means 20 base damage.

By contrast, Blade Hands is 8 + (str+dex)/3 base damage, so at 18 str and 18 dex, it has 20 base damage.

This calculation is a bit weird. The opponent's AC reduces each attack individually, doesn't it?

Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 28th November 2014, 14:57

Re: Hydra form?

Hydraform doesn't apply multiple attacks per enemy, so each enemy only rolls AC once.

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Magipi

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Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 16:14

Re: Hydra form?

So I'm really not getting why I would want to spend 6 levels to memorize this spell, let alone train TM high enough to cast it with decent spellpower...
I can get blade hands castable with way less investment, and I get similar single target damage, and I get to keep my AC and EV, and whatever other bonuses I get from my equipment.

Or, I can spend all the extra XP for hydra form, to do comparable damage, with cleaving, but at the cost of extremely low AC and EV, all equipment bonuses lost, and a weird vulnerability to fire branded axes and long blades.

I've tried it on a couple of drac transmuters, and I tried to make it work, I really did. I spent a bunch of extra XP, got 8 or 9 heads, and using it against somewhat challenging foes just served to get me nearly killed. The only actual use I found for it was to get engorged on dungeon popcorn, which was kinda fun, but not worth the XP. The healing on kills only works against small enough edible enemies, so it's not exactly something that comes in handy too often.

This spell needs a HUGE buff to be even worth considering. It's currently a LOT worse than blade hands. Maybe if it were level 4 TM/VM I'd use it for a little while before I got blade hands castable...
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 3rd December 2014, 22:25

Re: Hydra form?

damiac wrote:So I'm really not getting why I would want to spend 6 levels to memorize this spell, let alone train TM high enough to cast it with decent spellpower...
I can get blade hands castable with way less investment, and I get similar single target damage, and I get to keep my AC and EV, and whatever other bonuses I get from my equipment.

Or, I can spend all the extra XP for hydra form, to do comparable damage, with cleaving, but at the cost of extremely low AC and EV, all equipment bonuses lost, and a weird vulnerability to fire branded axes and long blades.

I've tried it on a couple of drac transmuters, and I tried to make it work, I really did. I spent a bunch of extra XP, got 8 or 9 heads, and using it against somewhat challenging foes just served to get me nearly killed. The only actual use I found for it was to get engorged on dungeon popcorn, which was kinda fun, but not worth the XP. The healing on kills only works against small enough edible enemies, so it's not exactly something that comes in handy too often.

This spell needs a HUGE buff to be even worth considering. It's currently a LOT worse than blade hands. Maybe if it were level 4 TM/VM I'd use it for a little while before I got blade hands castable...


Actually what you should take away from this is that Blade Hands are just really (very) good. Probably better than they should be.

If you catch my drift.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 4th December 2014, 17:56

Re: Hydra form?

Maybe that's true, blade hands outclasses spider and ice forms, hands down, and that's before you consider how much those forms destroy your defenses.
Hydra form damage is comparable to blade hands, maybe even better if you consider the cleave effect, but lowering your AC and EV to horribly low levels just isn't even remotely worth it. The satiation and healing on kill(if it's the right kind of creature, which is silly) is just a side effect that isn't really useful or dependable.

Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 4th December 2014, 19:13

Re: Hydra form?

!lm RBrandon DrTm br.end=Vaults -tv
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Post Thursday, 4th December 2014, 19:59

Re: Hydra form?

Haste+Might+Agility on a species that is inherently at an AC disadvantage, as such hydra form has less mali on your defenses than usual. So long as you're being attacked by bladed, unbranded melee weapons, hydra form healing is pretty strong. Not to take away from that -tv RBrandon (that was pretty rad), but the vault guards are the least of your worries on vault 5. Just like yaks are fantastic hydra fodder, it seems to be a form used best on weakish enemies that could easily be disposed of in a cheaper fashion (a point I tried to make earlier in this thread, but didn't iterate very well :D )
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Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 4th December 2014, 20:31

Re: Hydra form?

I generally (not completely) agree with the overall sentiment of this thread. Hydra form is quite strong, but extremely dangerous to use. Add to this it's heavy dependence on power and I would have difficulty recommending this spell for many characters in its current state.

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Post Thursday, 4th December 2014, 21:10

Re: Hydra form?

What race do you think would be best suited to using hydra form? Given that it melds all armor, seems like Op/Fe are fairly obvious choices, but I was also looking for something that's a bit stronger, so I'm thinking maybe a troll? You can't use as much armor to begin with, and then you have the huge health/regeneration to make up for weaknesses. I assume you lose your claw bonus, though. Transmutations isn't the best aptitude but that can still be done of course. Other options would be to pick a more traditional transmuter like merfolk, or just a bulky fighter type like a Minotaur...

Which books contain hydra form? How common is it to find? Should I go sif if I really want to experiment with it in a non-wizard game?
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Post Thursday, 4th December 2014, 21:36

Re: Hydra form?

tasonir wrote:What race do you think would be best suited to using hydra form?


Og makes for a pretty fantastic transmuter if you can survive the early game (as I'm sure Tasonir the Transmuter knows). Their large HP pool and better-than-troll Int are both pretty important for hydra form. Idk, I've always considered Ogres to be a pretty solid choice for any sort of transmutation build.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 4th December 2014, 23:47

Re: Hydra form?

Greyr wrote:
tasonir wrote:What race do you think would be best suited to using hydra form?


Og makes for a pretty fantastic transmuter if you can survive the early game (as I'm sure Tasonir the Transmuter knows). Their large HP pool and better-than-troll Int are both pretty important for hydra form. Idk, I've always considered Ogres to be a pretty solid choice for any sort of transmutation build.

That's a good point - I tend to think of trolls because of the claws, but hydra form's going to overwrite that anyways. Has -1 unarmed, but I imagine the +3 fighting will more than offset that.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 4th December 2014, 23:55

Re: Hydra form?

Like dragon form, hydra form benefits a lot from Ozocubu's Armour. (and to a lesser extent, Condensation Shield.) You may be better off starting as an IE rather than a Tm to guarantee that you have access to them.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 00:30

Re: Hydra form?

ogtm is really bad i dont recommend it
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 00:38

Re: Hydra form?

Once you get it off the ground, not really.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 01:30

Re: Hydra form?

crate wrote:ogtm is really bad i dont recommend it

I'm fairly sure, despite only going on my memory, that I once asked you what combo statue form was good for, and you said OgTm :P

I realize because of different conditions these two statements aren't directly contradictory, but they seem a little bit odd together :)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 01:53

Re: Hydra form?

Greyr wrote:Once you get it off the ground, not really.

this is true about any tm

ogtm is really bad at the start of the game, which is when tm is already bad

I'm pretty sure I've never really recommended statue form tm at all (I think you're better off doing other things on basically every tm, except maybe optm (which I would also not recommend, but that's because of both it not being that great and, more importantly, op and transmutations mixing in a very annoying way in general)). Stuff like opee is good for statue form though.

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 02:08

Re: Hydra form?

crate wrote: op and transmutations mixing in a very annoying way in general


Are you talking about Op rings melding when they transmute? Because that was removed.
take it easy

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 02:10

Re: Hydra form?

crate wrote:
Greyr wrote:Once you get it off the ground, not really.

this is true about any tm

ogtm is really bad at the start of the game, which is when tm is already bad


Yeah, I see your point. But keep in mind this is in relation to hydra form and any potential synergies it has with species.
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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 04:39

Re: Hydra form?

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16-a0-2961-gc280d91 (webtiles) character file.

tasonir the Brawler (Ogre Transmuter)              Turns: 35893, Time: 02:33:04

Health: 197/197    AC: 23    Str: 35    XL:     19   Next: 46%
Magic:  35/35      EV: 26    Int: 29    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   1802       SH:  0    Dex: 31    Spells: 6 memorised, 12 levels left

rFire  + + .     SeeInvis .       - Unarmed
rCold  x . .     Clarity  .     l - +8 fire dragon armour {rF++, rC-}
rNeg   . . .     SustAb   .     (shield restricted)
rPois  +         Gourm    .     e - +2 hat
rElec  .         Spirit   .     J - +0 cloak
rCorr  +         Warding  .     (gloves unavailable)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (boots unavailable)
MR     +....                    d - amulet of resist corrosion {rCorr, !d}
Stlth  +.........               g - +4 ring of evasion
                                o - ring of poison resistance {rPois, !d}

@: very slow, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, very unstealthy
A: unfitting armour, agile 1, spit poison 1, tough skin 1
a: Spit Poison, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce
Religion


You are on level 5 of the Spider Nest.
You worship Cheibriados.
Cheibriados is exalted by your worship.
You are full.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 33 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer, Bailey and Ice Cave.

You have collected 3307 gold pieces.
You have spent 1505 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 Y - a slimy hand crossbow
   (You found it on level 4 of the Spider Nest)
Missiles
 F - 6 poisoned javelins
 L - 4 throwing nets {=f, !d}
 M - 2 large rocks (quivered) {!d}
Armour
 e - a +2 hat (worn)
   (You found it in an ice cave)
 h - a +0 shield
   (You found it on level 1 of the Dungeon)
 l - a +8 fire dragon armour (worn) {rF++, rC-}
   (You acquired it in a bailey)
 J - a +0 cloak (worn)
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)
Jewellery
 d - an amulet of resist corrosion (around neck) {rCorr, !d}
   (You found it on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 g - a +4 ring of evasion (right hand)
   (You found it on level 1 of the Dungeon)
 o - a ring of poison resistance (left hand) {rPois, !d}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Dungeon)
 t - a +5 ring of slaying
   (You found it on level 3 of the Dungeon)
 w - a cursed ring of protection from fire {rF+, !d}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Dungeon)
 H - an uncursed ring of ice {rC+, rF-}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
 Q - an uncursed ring of teleportation {+/*tele, !d}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Spider Nest)
Magical devices
 n - a wand of disintegration
   (You found it on level 2 of the Spider Nest)
 s - a wand of fire
   (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
Scrolls
 f - 3 scrolls of blinking {!r}
 j - 4 scrolls of recharging
 q - 2 scrolls of magic mapping {!r}
 y - 5 scrolls of fear
 z - 3 scrolls of enchant armour
 B - a scroll of summoning
 C - 11 scrolls of teleportation
 G - 16 scrolls of remove curse
 P - 3 scrolls of fog
 R - a scroll labeled UCE SOM LOTUH
 V - a scroll labeled THREZA MYRUBOTE
 Z - a scroll of silence
Potions
 i - 2 potions of magic
 p - 5 potions of might
 r - a potion of resistance
 x - a potion of lignification {!q}
 A - 19 potions of curing
 D - a potion of invisibility
 O - 3 potions of heal wounds
 S - a potion of flight
 U - 4 potions of restore abilities
 X - 3 potions of agility
Books
 m - a Young Poisoner's Handbook {@w0}
   (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
 v - Roxanne's Disquisition on Earthen Changing
   (You took it off Roxanne on level 3 of the Spider Nest)   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Sticks to Snakes             Transmutation                 2
    b - Stoneskin                    Transmutation/Earth           2
    c - Spider Form                  Transmutation/Poison          3
    d - Statue Form                  Transmutation/Earth           6
    e - Hydra Form                   Transmutation                 6
 I - a book of Battle {@w0}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Spider Nest)
 N - Pieg's Guide on Earth
   (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Sandblast                    Earth                         1
    b - Passwall                     Transmutation/Earth           3
    c - Lee's Rapid Deconstruction   Earth                         5
    d - Shatter                      Earth                         9
 W - a book of the Warp
   (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)
Miscellaneous
 c - a fan of gales
   (You found it on level 2 of the Spider Nest)
 K - a phantom mirror
Comestibles
 a - 10 meat rations {@e2}
 b - 13 royal jellies
 k - 13 bread rations {@e1}
 T - 28 fruits


   Skills:
 - Level 14.1 Fighting
 - Level 4.4 Throwing
 - Level 9.7 Armour
 - Level 12.6 Dodging
 - Level 15.3 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 10.0 Spellcasting
 + Level 12.3 Transmutations
 - Level 8.1 Invocations


You have 12 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Blade Hands           Trmt           ######....   1%          5    ###....
b - Hydra Form            Trmt           ######....   6%          6    #####..
c - Statue Form           Trmt/Erth      ######...    58%         6    #####..
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ##........   14%         3    None
s - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      ######..     1%          2    None
x - Ice Form              Ice/Trmt       ######..     3%          4    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (8/8) D:10
  Swamp (0/5) Lair:5       Shoals (0/5) Lair:3       Spider (5/5) Lair:6
  Slime (0/6) Lair:6          Orc (4/4) D:11            Elf (0/3) Orc:3
 Vaults (0/5) D:14         Depths (0/5) D:15       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:12 :(   Orc:1 ([   Orc:3 [   Orc:4 %**!

Annotations:
D:4 Disco's ghost, experienced FoFi
D:12 runed door
D:15 runed door
Lair:3 dprevitalli's ghost, powerful OgBe
Lair:6 exclusion: 2 oklob plants


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are too large for most types of armour.
You have tough skin (AC +1).
You are agile. (Dex +2)
You can spit poison.


Message History

You take 3 damage, and have 267/295 hp.
You gouge the redback!! You devour the redback! You feel better.
You kill the redback!
Cheibriados thoroughly appreciates the change of pace.
You bite the redback! You nip at the redback.
The redback bites you but does no damage. x2
You regained 19 hp, and now have 286/295 hp.
You closely miss the redback.
You nip at the redback but do no damage.
You barely miss the redback. The redback barely misses you.
The redback completely misses you. The redback closely misses you.
You nip at the redback but do no damage. x2
You chomp the redback!!! You devour the redback! You feel better.
You kill the redback!
Cheibriados thoroughly appreciates the change of pace.
The redback bites you! The redback closely misses you.
You take 8 damage, and have 279/295 hp.
You bite the redback! You chomp the redback!!! You devour the redback!
You feel better.
You kill the redback!
Cheibriados thoroughly appreciates the change of pace.
The redback barely misses you.
Health restored: 295
You gouge the redback!! You devour the redback! You feel better.
You kill the redback!
Cheibriados thoroughly appreciates the change of pace.
Your transformation has ended.
Your +0 cloak unmelds from your body. Your +2 hat unmelds from your body.
Your +8 fire dragon armour {rF++, rC-} unmelds from your body.
There is a huge open gate here.
You take 98 damage, and have 197/197 hp.
MASSIVE DAMAGE!!
Unknown command.
A trapdoor spider comes into view.
There is a huge open gate here.
The trapdoor spider hisses angrily.
You turn into a 8-headed hydra. Your +0 cloak melds into your body.
Your +2 hat melds into your body.
Your +8 fire dragon armour {rF++, rC-} melds into your body.
The trapdoor spider completely misses you.
Health restored: 295
You now have 8/35 mp.
The trapdoor spider closely misses you.
You chomp the trapdoor spider!!! You devour the trapdoor spider!
You feel better.
You kill the trapdoor spider!
Cheibriados thoroughly appreciates the change of pace.
A red wasp comes into view.
Unknown command.
You gouge the red wasp!!
Your transformation has ended.
Your +0 cloak unmelds from your body. Your +2 hat unmelds from your body.
Your +8 fire dragon armour {rF++, rC-} unmelds from your body.
The red wasp misses you.
You take 98 damage, and have 197/197 hp.
MASSIVE DAMAGE!!
You barely miss the red wasp. The red wasp completely misses you.
You hit the red wasp. The red wasp misses you.
You punch the red wasp! You punch the red wasp.
You kill the red wasp!
Cheibriados thoroughly appreciates the change of pace.
No target in view!
Unknown command.
You start resting.
A redback comes into view.
You regained 8 mp, and now have 18/35 mp.
You turn into a 7-headed hydra. Your +0 cloak melds into your body.
Your +2 hat melds into your body.
Your +8 fire dragon armour {rF++, rC-} melds into your body.
The redback bites you!
A tarantella comes into view.
You regained 86 hp, and now have 283/295 hp.
You now have 13/35 mp.
The tarantella moves out of view. The redback completely misses you.
The redback completely misses you.
You barely miss the redback.
The tarantella hisses angrily.
The redback barely misses you.
You barely miss the redback.
The redback bites you but does no damage.
You chomp the redback!!! You hungrily devour the redback! You feel better.
You kill the redback!
Cheibriados appreciates the change of pace.
Health restored: 295
The tarantella completely misses you. x2
There is a huge open gate here.
You nip at the tarantella. The tarantella bites you.
You take 2 damage, and have 293/295 hp.
You bite the tarantella! The tarantella closely misses you.
You bite the tarantella! You devour the tarantella! You feel better.
You kill the tarantella!
Cheibriados thoroughly appreciates the change of pace.
Your transformation has ended.
Your +0 cloak unmelds from your body. Your +2 hat unmelds from your body.
Your +8 fire dragon armour {rF++, rC-} unmelds from your body.
You take 96 damage, and have 197/197 hp.
MASSIVE DAMAGE!!
You start resting.
All of the chunks of flesh in your inventory have rotted away.
MP restored: 35

          #
        ..≈##≈..
      .  .......
     ..  ^..$.≈#
    #≈.. #....≈#
      ..##....#
       #.....#
        #...#
        #''@#
     ####'''####
  ####.........####
  #............^..##
 ##...............#..
 #..........#.........
##.#........#.......^#
#..#...................
#.##...............#...


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Arachne (Spider:4)
  Nikola (Spider:5)
  An Ice Fiend (IceCv)
  Agnes (Spider:1)
  Kirke (Spider:5)
  Roxanne (Spider:3)
  2 ghost moths (Spider:4)
  A frost giant (D:15)
  Maud (D:15)
  3 emperor scorpions
  Jorgrun (Spider:4)
  Azrael (Spider:4)
  The ghost of bza the Severer, a powerful NaBe of Trog (D:12)
  2 ettins
  8 vault guards (D:14)
  A yaktaur captain (D:12)
  Fannar (Lair:6)
  6 centaur warriors
  The ghost of enigmoo the Bludgeoner, a powerful GrBe of Trog (Lair:3)
  A ghost crab (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  2 deep troll earth magi
  Erica (Lair:5)
  5 hydras
  7 ogre magi
  4 tengu warriors
  Nergalle (Lair:5)
  A fire crab (D:15)
  5 unseen horrors
  5 ice devils (IceCv)
  The ghost of zazu2006 the Ducker, an experienced HECj of Okawaru (D:8)
  3 orc knights
  4 ice statues (IceCv)
  12 hill giants
  A wolf spider zombie (D:15)
  14 orb spiders
  7 ugly things
  A red wasp (Spider:5)
  2 manticores
  A moth of wrath (Spider:3)
  24 wolf spiders
  A cyclops (D:15)
  4 griffons
  5 elephants
  2 black mambas
  2 sirens (Lair:3)
  A queen ant (Spider:3)
  7 centaur skeletons
  3 torpor snails
  6 spiny frogs
  4 yaktaurs (D:15)
  5 anaconda simulacra (IceCv)
  An efreet (D:14)
  A fire drake (Lair:7)
  A gargoyle (D:14)
  2 tengu conjurers
  9 komodo dragons
  4 kobold demonologists
  11 demonic crawlers
  A spriggan druid (Lair:8)
  A harpy zombie (D:14)
  2 merfolk (Lair:3)
  4 trolls
  A jumping spider (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  Sonja (D:11)
  20 jumping spiders
  7 blue devils (IceCv)
  8 polar bears (Lair:8)
  20 two-headed ogres
  14 ravens
  10 blink frogs
  4 slime creatures (D:13)
  A boulder beetle (Spider:2)
  19 trapdoor spiders
  62 redbacks
  2 basilisks (Lair:7)
  18 tarantellas
  10 spriggans (Lair:8)
  2 shadows
  3 fire elementals (Spider:4)
  3 deep elf magi
  A hog (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  A vampire (D:15)
  2 hogs (Spider:5)
  19 yaks
  6 vampire mosquitoes (D:15)
  4 wyverns
  2 deep elf fighters (D:15)
  A neqoxec (D:11)
  11 hippogriffs
  6 hungry ghosts
  A steam dragon (D:14)
  5 wraiths
  11 swamp worms (Lair:4)
  52 wolves
  24 soldier ants
  Edmund (D:5)
  An iron troll simulacrum (IceCv)
  3 mottled dragons
  14 water moccasins
  4 hydra simulacra (IceCv)
  A hell hound (Spider:4)
  3 yellow wasps (Lair:8)
  9 black bears
  21 orc warriors
  19 porcupines
  19 spiders
  41 ogres
  5 ice beasts
  3 phantoms
  4 sky beasts
  The ghost of guido the Insei, an average DsMo (D:3)
  An eye of draining (D:13)
  3 boring beetles
  A boggart (D:15)
  6 centaurs
  A big kobold (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  11 big kobolds
  12 crocodiles
  19 giant frogs
  A wyvern zombie (D:9)
  6 scorpions
  3 jellies
  22 killer bees
  4 electric eels
  A vampire bat (Orc:4)
  5 goliath beetles
  12 hounds
  8 crimson imps
  28 orc priests
  6 centaur zombies
  7 iguanas
  2 giant frog skeletons
  2 giant frog zombies (D:6)
  A yellow wasp zombie (D:13)
  29 orc wizards
  39 worker ants
  21 sheep
  A killer bee zombie (D:9)
  Ijyb (D:2)
  2 mummies
  3 gnolls (D:4)
  16 river rats
  23 adders
  5 giant mites
  6 shadow imps
  13 white imps
  10 worms
  An ufetubus (D:11)
  An adder skeleton (D:4)
  An adder zombie (D:8)
  5 giant geckos
  207 orcs
  8 ball pythons
  14 giant cockroaches
  26 goblins
  29 hobgoblins
  10 jackals
  38 kobolds
  9 quokkas
  22 bats
  8 giant newts
  A jackal skeleton (D:5)
  A quokka zombie (D:6)
  39 rats
  A bush (Lair:7)
  A plant (Lair:4)
1467 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  An ogre (D:3)
  A goblin (D:3)
2 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A hog (Spider:5)
  A human (Spider:5)
  5 fungi
  7 plants
14 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1483 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | tasonir, the Ogre Transmuter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 3/3
    60 | D:1      | Reached skill level 3 in Unarmed Combat
   281 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 8/27 MP: 5/5
  1328 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 31/33 MP: 6/6
  1621 | D:2      | Reached skill level 4 in Unarmed Combat
  1672 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 22/41 MP: 8/8
  1919 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Sticks to Snakes
  2227 | D:2      | Noticed Ijyb
  2261 | D:2      | Killed Ijyb
  2486 | D:3      | Noticed an ogre
  2498 | D:3      | Killed an ogre
  2498 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat
  2498 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 48/48 MP: 6/9
  2612 | D:3      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  2795 | D:3      | Noticed guido's ghost (average DsMo)
  2829 | D:3      | Killed guido's ghost
  2829 | D:3      | Reached skill level 2 in Fighting
  2829 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 24/59 MP: 11/11
  2986 | D:3      | Reached skill level 3 in Fighting
  3561 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3571 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  3612 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative
  3792 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting
  3792 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Unarmed Combat
  3809 | D:4      | HP: 15/62 [poisoned by a centaur]
  3931 | D:4      | Reached skill level 2 in Dodging
  3931 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 33/70 MP: 12/12
  4010 | D:4      | Reached skill level 3 in Dodging
  4129 | D:4      | Noticed Disco's ghost (experienced FoFi)
  4497 | D:4      | HP: 13/70 [Disco's ghost (18)]
  4798 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4800 | D:5      | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging
  4808 | D:5      | Noticed Edmund
  4815 | D:5      | Killed Edmund
  4937 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  4937 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 35/78 MP: 14/14
  5179 | D:5      | Reached skill level 6 in Dodging
  5363 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  5387 | D:5      | Reached skill level 2 in Invocations
  5674 | D:5      | Reached skill level 3 in Invocations
  5776 | D:5      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  5777 | D:5      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  5896 | D:5      | Reached skill level 4 in Invocations
  6023 | D:5      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  6082 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
  6098 | D:6      | Found a glowing drain.
  6167 | D:6      | Reached skill level 6 in Invocations
  6190 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 50/84 MP: 18/18
  6347 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  6364 | Sewer    | Acquired Cheibriados' first power
  6559 | Sewer    | Acquired Cheibriados' second power
  7000 | D:6      | Acquired Cheibriados' third power
  7060 | D:6      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  7061 | D:6      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  7161 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Dodging
  7232 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Unarmed Combat
  7232 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Invocations
  7299 | D:6      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  7638 | D:7      | tasonir: Attempting to make a hydra form character, assuming I find the spell ;)
  7709 | D:7      | Sandman25: I see. Do you have high Dodging?
  7713 | D:7      | tasonir: for D:7 yes, but mostly chei
  7713 | D:7      | tasonir: and also +4 ev ring
  7713 | D:7      | Sandman25: nice
  7713 | D:7      | tasonir: The rings are making this fairly easy ;)
  7746 | D:7      | tasonir: interesting, no more Cblink in warp
  7746 | D:7      | tasonir: didn't know that until now
  7784 | D:7      | Sandman25: me neither
  7791 | D:7      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  7992 | D:7      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  8099 | D:7      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 74/92 MP: 21/21
  8172 | D:8      | Noticed zazu2006's ghost (experienced HECj)
  8361 | D:8      | Reached skill level 8 in Invocations
  8459 | D:8      | Reached skill level 8 in Dodging
  8459 | D:8      | Reached skill level 8 in Unarmed Combat
  8662 | D:8      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  8714 | D:8      | Killed zazu2006's ghost
  9016 | D:9      | Noticed a tengu warrior
  9025 | D:9      | Sandman25: hard d9
  9028 | D:9      | tasonir: yeah wasn't really expecting ravens :P  I guess I should slouch, I'm not strong enough for it yet
  9029 | D:9      | Killed a tengu warrior
  9029 | D:9      | Reached skill level 9 in Dodging
  9029 | D:9      | Reached skill level 9 in Unarmed Combat
  9031 | D:9      | tasonir: have to be careful, I put on guardian spirit, almost ran out of mana
  9048 | D:9      | Sandman25: remove it probably
  9048 | D:9      | tasonir: fairly soon I'll try to start training shields, just want a bit more UC/dodging
  9215 | D:9      | Sandman25: rpois
  9356 | D:9      | Sandman25: I am not sure you need shields. Really high EV and Chei (being surrounded often)
  9471 | D:9      | tasonir: it certainly isn't needed, I just like to build defensively by habit
  9514 | D:9      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 79/100 MP: 22/22
  9649 | D:9      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  9900 | D:9      | Sandman25: read scrolls, 7 unknown scrolls is really bad
  9911 | D:9      | tasonir: another bad habit of mine, waiting a really long time to ID :)
  9977 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  9994 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 10027 | D:10     | Reached skill level 10 in Unarmed Combat
 10028 | D:10     | Sandman25: no mapping?
 10029 | D:10     | tasonir: not ID'ed
 10049 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 10055 | D:10     | Sandman25: rip
 10055 | D:10     | tasonir: don't recall giants being net immune, doh
 10061 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 10062 | D:10     | Found a flagged portal.
 10070 | D:10     | tasonir: I handled it poorly sure, but that's far from a death :P
 10240 | Bailey   | Entered a bailey
 10254 | Bailey   | Sandman25: I am not sure why you are not reading unknown scrolls. You already have blinking and fog
 10254 | Bailey   | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 10254 | Bailey   | Sandman25: death with acquirement could be stupid
 10254 | Bailey   | tasonir: I usually avoid wasting scrolls early on, but yeah blinking is the most important one, maybe recharing
 10254 | Bailey   | tasonir: armor?  that or wand, hmm
 10254 | Bailey   | tasonir: I like doing wand with chei because without haste, heal wounds is more likely
 10254 | Bailey   | tasonir: but there's a lot of wands I haven't ID'ed yet
 10254 | Bailey   | Sandman25: I pick armour, you don't need haste
 10256 | Bailey   | Sandman25: nice
 10267 | Bailey   | Sandman25: no rc+?
 10267 | Bailey   | tasonir: not yet
 10267 | Bailey   | Sandman25: H
 10267 | Bailey   | tasonir: can't figure out how to get over the river here either
 10269 | Bailey   | Sandman25: don't you put ice ring on?
 10269 | Bailey   | tasonir: true, I do have ice
 10366 | Bailey   | Sandman25: chei is cruel
 10491 | Bailey   | tasonir: I'm surprised I was able to run as far as I did :P
 10688 | Bailey   | tasonir: well that's sad
 10692 | Bailey   | tasonir: CPA too
 10924 | Bailey   | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 11500 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 11521 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 11521 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
 11572 | D:10     | tasonir: That may be one of the first mimics to actually disappoint me
 11572 | D:10     | tasonir: mirrors are so strong ;)
 11650 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 11662 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 11787 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 11795 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 11795 | D:10     | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting
 11795 | D:10     | Reached skill level 2 in Armour
 11796 | D:10     | Sandman25: I would probably swap slaying with ice for autoexplore
 11912 | D:10     | tasonir: You're right but I'm probably too lazy to do that much
 12059 | D:10     | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 12359 | D:10     | Killed an unseen horror
 12359 | D:10     | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting
 12392 | D:10     | Reached skill level 3 in Armour
 12406 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 12413 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 12977 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 13066 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting
 13066 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 83/119 MP: 23/23
 13336 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 11 in Unarmed Combat
 13541 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 4 in Armour
 13611 | Lair:1   | tasonir: think I'll ever find hydra form?
 13611 | Lair:1   | tasonir: maybe I should just memorize blade hands
 13611 | Lair:1   | Sandman25: it's too early
 13617 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 5 spell: Blade Hands
 13771 | Lair:1   | Sandman25: I would probably train UC and defence first
 13804 | Lair:1   | tasonir: yeah, I'm not going to train it just yet, but I did memorize it
 13804 | Lair:1   | tasonir: I would train it on a race that was good with transmutations, but -3 will take too long
 14137 | Lair:2   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 14145 | Lair:2   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 14145 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
 14512 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 15147 | Lair:3   | tasonir: what would you acquire?  I'm tempted to ID a few more wands and then do wands later
 15326 | Lair:3   | Noticed dprevitalli's ghost (powerful OgBe)
 15328 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 15329 | Lair:3   | Sandman25: I would id potions (exp and bene mut) and would acquire armour
 15330 | Lair:3   | Sandman25: tele wand is not a big deal and as Og you have high HP so HW is not that great
 15384 | Lair:3   | Sandman25: nasty combo
 15389 | Lair:3   | tasonir: too much hp for even slouch to do much
 15420 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 16189 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 12 in Unarmed Combat
 16279 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 135/135 MP: 25/25
 16339 | Lair:4   | Sandman25: lucky enchant armour amount
 16342 | Lair:4   | tasonir: yeah at this point I'll probably start saving them in case I find a better armor, although it's only 2 away anyways
 16342 | Lair:4   | tasonir: if I do end up transmuting it'll probably meld
 16487 | Lair:4   | Sandman25: what do you mean as better armour? PDA?
 16812 | Lair:5   | tasonir: Honestly probably mottled, but yeah, there aren't many options
 16812 | Lair:5   | tasonir: maybe I find a +0 cloak of magic resist, dunno
 16812 | Lair:5   | tasonir: Those tend to be +1 or +2 already, but it could happen :P
 16896 | Lair:5   | Noticed Erica
 17023 | Lair:5   | Noticed Nergalle
 17026 | Lair:5   | Sandman25: well, +0 cloak and +7 FDA is the same as +1 cloak and +6 FDA )
 17036 | Lair:5   | Killed Nergalle
 17036 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 2 in Transmutations
 17124 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 17146 | Lair:5   | Killed Erica
 17399 | Lair:5   | tasonir: Depending on what resists I find, IDA is probably better
 17817 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 17853 | Lair:6   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 17855 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 3 in Transmutations
 18098 | Lair:6   | Noticed Fannar
 18114 | Lair:6   | Killed Fannar
 18432 | Lair:6   | Sandman25: yeah
 18528 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 4 in Transmutations
 18572 | Lair:7   | Sandman25: enchant weapon?
 18574 | Lair:7   | tasonir: I'm not even carrying my blowgun anymore, could probably drop them
 18754 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations
 18837 | Lair:7   | Sandman25: liq?
 19029 | Lair:7   | tasonir: haven't ID'ed it yet, and slouch is perfect there anyways
 19187 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 6 in Transmutations
 19302 | Lair:7   | Sandman25: no shield then?
 19312 | Lair:7   | tasonir: probably not for a while...I assume hydra melds it?
 19312 | Lair:7   | tasonir: blade hands certainly will
 19375 | Lair:7   | Sandman25: I don't know
 19406 | Lair:7   | tasonir: plus the main reason would be to cover low ac, and now that isn't a problem
 19979 | Lair:7   | Sandman25: yes, a tanky Og is fun
 20083 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 20263 | Lair:8   | Sandman25: id
 20305 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 7 in Transmutations
 20535 | Lair:8   | Sandman25: with wiz it should be castable
 20541 | Lair:8   | tasonir: yeah, but I'm fine with waiting for this floor
 20598 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 3 in Spellcasting
 20600 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 142/144 MP: 25/25
 20607 | Lair:8   | tasonir: spriggan riders can be nasty but most anything else is popcorn
 20695 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 4 in Spellcasting
 20808 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 20964 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 8 in Transmutations
 21830 | Lair:3   | Noticed enigmoo's ghost (powerful GrBe)
 21834 | Lair:3   | Killed enigmoo's ghost
 21835 | Lair:3   | tasonir: ah wow, garg with elec as well as the ogre berserker ghost I ran from
 22066 | D:11     | Noticed Sonja
 22079 | D:11     | Killed Sonja
 22514 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 22535 | D:11     | Reached skill level 9 in Transmutations
 22664 | D:11     | tasonir: I guess I could ice form to kill them :P
 22669 | D:11     | Learned a level 4 spell: Ice Form
 22670 | D:11     | Sandman25: yes
 22691 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 22778 | Orc:1    | Found Gaxiczet's Antique Armour Shoppe.
 22802 | Orc:1    | Found Vellamp's Weapon Shoppe.
 22835 | Orc:1    | Sandman25: ctrl+a
 23264 | Orc:3    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 23404 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 23467 | Orc:4    | tasonir: where's my book shops!
 23945 | Orc:4    | Sandman25: slouch for ogre mage?
 23974 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 10 in Transmutations
 23976 | Orc:4    | tasonir: you could, but mostly uneeded
 24124 | Orc:4    | tasonir: Blade hands and chei is just obscene
 24124 | Orc:4    | tasonir: Then you just have to take care of your defenses
 24124 | Orc:4    | tasonir: which I've been lucky to have
 24131 | Orc:4    | Sandman25: I guess you rae not afraid of nanishment/paralysis like I am
 24141 | Orc:4    | Found Vyelon's Food Boutique.
 24142 | Orc:4    | Found Crue's Assorted Antiques.
 24143 | Orc:4    | Found Smaatovirph's Assorted Antiques.
 24143 | Orc:4    | Found Ysatoil's Distillery.
 24150 | Orc:4    | Sandman25: *banishment
 24150 | Orc:4    | tasonir: I'm more likely to kill it asap by hitting them with blade hands, imho
 24161 | Orc:4    | tasonir: Having to take a step does hurt, but one slouch probably won't kill it either
 24161 | Orc:4    | Sandman25: they were behind vanila ogres, so it was safer
 24161 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of identify for 70 gold pieces
 24161 | Orc:4    | tasonir: yeah, honestly I don't usually think much of ogres as banishers because it's 1/4 spellsets, even though I should
 24165 | Orc:4    | tasonir: experience and Bmut...
 24166 | Orc:4    | tasonir: no book shop, but there's 2 random books
 24168 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of identify for 80 gold pieces
 24168 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of identify for 80 gold pieces
 24170 | Orc:4    | tasonir: potions are probably best for now
 24170 | Orc:4    | tasonir: afk for a minute
 24170 | Orc:4    | Sandman25: I would buy those potions. you don't need wands/weapons/armour
 24170 | Orc:4    | Sandman25: good luck! I am back to FeWz who clears Vaults with Force Lance )
 24171 | Orc:4    | Bought a potion of beneficial mutation for 525 gold pieces
 24171 | Orc:4    | Bought a potion of experience for 750 gold pieces
 24171 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting
 24171 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 6 in Armour
 24171 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 24171 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 13 in Unarmed Combat
 24171 | Orc:4    | Reached XP level 15. HP: 145/154 MP: 27/27
 24172 | Orc:4    | Reached XP level 16. HP: 154/163 MP: 28/28
 24173 | Orc:4    | Gained mutation: You are agile. (Dex +2) [potion of beneficial mutation]
 24174 | Orc:4    | Gained mutation: You are robust (+10% HP). [potion of beneficial mutation]
 25062 | Orc:3    | Found Gucs' Antique Armour Shoppe.
 25801 | D:11     | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 25804 | D:11     | Reached skill level 7 in Armour
 25812 | D:11     | Lost mutation: You are robust (+10% HP). [a neqoxec]
 26297 | D:12     | Found Xuthodaj's Book Shop.
 26358 | D:12     | Found a runed door.
 26370 | D:12     | Reached XP level 17. HP: 141/172 MP: 29/29
 26528 | D:12     | Reached skill level 12 in Fighting
 26542 | D:12     | Reached skill level 14 in Unarmed Combat
 26548 | D:12     | Identified Pieg's Guide on Earth (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
 26747 | D:12     | Found Neodagi's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
 27800 | D:14     | Reached skill level 11 in Dodging
 27859 | D:14     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 27866 | D:14     | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
 27928 | D:14     | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
 28475 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 28648 | D:15     | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
 28750 | D:15     | Found a runed door.
 28837 | D:15     | Reached skill level 12 in Dodging
 28846 | D:15     | Reached skill level 8 in Armour
 28987 | D:15     | Noticed Maud
 28995 | D:15     | Killed Maud
 28997 | D:15     | Reached skill level 13 in Fighting
 29245 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 29439 | D:15     | Reached XP level 18. HP: 185/185 MP: 27/33
 29490 | D:15     | Gained mutation: You can spit poison. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 29500 | D:15     | Got an ancient turquoise ring
 29511 | D:15     | Identified the ring of Voifodgh {EV+4 Int-4 Dex+1} (You found it on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 29733 | D:12     | Noticed bza's ghost (powerful NaBe)
 29740 | D:12     | Killed bza's ghost
 30027 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 30360 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Fighting
 30379 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 9 in Armour
 30493 | Spider:1 | Noticed Agnes
 30494 | Spider:1 | Killed Agnes
 30494 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
 30600 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 2 in Throwing
 31323 | Spider:2 | Found a frozen archway.
 31331 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 3 in Throwing
 31411 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 31646 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 4 in Throwing
 31755 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 15 in Unarmed Combat
 31763 | IceCv    | Noticed an Ice Fiend
 31766 | IceCv    | HP: 28/189 [??? (26)]
 32051 | IceCv    | Killed an Ice Fiend
 32284 | IceCv    | Got a brightly glowing halberd
 32907 | Spider:2 | Got a smoking hand axe
 33237 | Spider:3 | Noticed Roxanne
 33248 | Spider:3 | Killed Roxanne
 33255 | Spider:3 | Identified Roxanne's Disquisition on Earthen Changing (You took it off Roxanne on level 3 of the Spider Nest)
 33267 | Spider:3 | Learned a level 6 spell: Hydra Form
 33270 | Spider:3 | Learned a level 2 spell: Stoneskin
 33300 | Spider:3 | Learned a level 6 spell: Statue Form
 33614 | Spider:3 | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
 33693 | Spider:3 | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration
 34097 | Spider:4 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 197/197 MP: 29/35
 34186 | Spider:4 | Noticed Azrael
 34200 | Spider:4 | Killed Azrael
 34234 | Spider:4 | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 34393 | Spider:4 | Reached skill level 11 in Transmutations
 34407 | Spider:4 | Noticed Jorgrun
 34418 | Spider:4 | Killed Jorgrun
 34683 | Spider:4 | Got a slimy hand crossbow
 34794 | Spider:4 | Noticed Arachne
 34811 | Spider:4 | Killed Arachne
 35316 | Spider:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Spider Nest
 35321 | Spider:5 | Noticed Nikola
 35334 | Spider:5 | Killed Nikola
 35544 | Spider:5 | Reached skill level 12 in Transmutations
 35680 | Spider:5 | Noticed Kirke
 35686 | Spider:5 | Killed Kirke


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |   160 |   193 |   555 |   629 |   946 |  1163 |   167 ||  3813
 Fire: Blowgun           |       |       |    15 |     5 |       |       |       ||    20
Throw: Stone             |       |     6 |    14 |       |       |       |       ||    20
       Tomahawk          |       |       |     1 |    28 |     6 |       |       ||    35
       Throwing net      |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       ||     1
       Large rock        |       |       |       |       |     2 |    10 |     7 ||    19
       Javelin           |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     2 ||     3
 Cast: Sticks to Snakes  |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Blade Hands       |       |       |       |       |     3 |    79 |     7 ||    89
       Ice Form          |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
       Hydra Form        |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |    18 ||    22
Invok: Slouch            |       |       |       |     8 |     4 |     3 |     4 ||    19
       Bend Time         |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       ||     2
       Temporal Distorti |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |     1 ||     4
 Abil: End Transformatio |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |     2 ||     6
Evoke: Wand              |       |     2 |       |     5 |       |       |       ||     7
  Use: Potion            |       |       |     1 |     5 |     2 |     6 |     2 ||    16
       Scroll            |       |       |       |    21 |     6 |    12 |     2 ||    41
 Stab: Sleeping          |     1 |       |     2 |     3 |       |       |       ||     6
       Distracted        |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       ||     2
       Fleeing           |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |     7 |     7 |    15 |    20 |    26 |       ||    77
       Meat ration       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Bread ration      |       |       |       |     1 |       |     1 |       ||     2
       Pizza             |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |       ||     4

Table legend:
 A = Turns spent in this place as a percentage of turns spent in the
     entire game.
 B = Non-inter-level travel turns spent in this place as a percentage of
     non-inter-level travel turns spent in the entire game.
 C = Inter-level travel turns spent in this place as a percentage of
     turns spent in this place.
 D = Turns resting spent in this place as a percentage of non-inter-level
     travel turns spent in this place.
 E = Turns spent auto-exploring this place as a percentage of
     non-inter-level travel turns spent in this place.
 F = Non-inter-level travel turns spent in this place divided by the
     number of levels of this place that you've seen.

                   A       B       C       D       E               F
               +-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+----------------------
         Total | 100.0 | 100.0 |   0.6 |   2.6 |  10.2 |         285.7
       Dungeon |  45.5 |  45.6 |   0.6 |   3.0 |  10.7 |         312.3
        Temple |   0.4 |   0.4 |   2.4 |   0.0 |   0.0 |          41.0
          Lair |  20.2 |  20.1 |   0.9 |   2.0 |  10.5 |         259.0
   Spider Nest |  15.2 |  15.3 |   0.3 |   1.7 |   8.9 |         314.6
  Orcish Mines |  10.5 |  10.5 |   1.0 |   1.1 |  15.7 |         269.2
         Sewer |   2.4 |   2.4 |   0.0 |   0.0 |   8.0 |         249.0
        Bailey |   3.1 |   3.1 |   0.0 |   6.8 |   0.6 |         323.0
      Ice Cave |   2.6 |   2.6 |   0.0 |  10.6 |   0.0 |         265.0
               +-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+----------------------

Table legend:
 A = Kills in this place as a percentage of kills in entire the game.
 B = Kills by you in this place as a percentage of kills by you in
     the entire game.
 C = Kills by friends in this place as a percentage of kills by
     friends in the entire game.
 D = Other kills in this place as a percentage of other kills in the
     entire game.
 E = Experience gained in this place as a percentage of experience
     gained in the entire game.
 F = Experience gained in this place divided by the number of levels of
     this place that you have seen.

                   A       B       C       D       E               F
               +-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+----------------------
         Total | 100.0 | 100.0 | 100.0 |  -nan | 100.0 |        7312.2
       Dungeon |  40.4 |  40.3 | 100.0 |  -nan |  36.5 |        6413.7
          Lair |  18.6 |  18.6 |   0.0 |  -nan |  19.1 |        6272.1
   Spider Nest |  18.1 |  18.1 |   0.0 |  -nan |  32.9 |       17309.6
  Orcish Mines |  16.7 |  16.7 |   0.0 |  -nan |   5.8 |        3821.8
         Sewer |   3.3 |   3.3 |   0.0 |  -nan |   0.2 |         413.0
        Bailey |   1.1 |   1.1 |   0.0 |  -nan |   0.2 |         443.0
      Ice Cave |   1.8 |   1.9 |   0.0 |  -nan |   5.4 |       14167.0
               +-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+----------------------


Going extremely well so far. Took a while to finally find hydra form, but roxanne was kind enough to drop both it and statue form in the same book, even with stoneskin. Previously I had found it in a shop, but hadn't yet ponied up the cash.

It doesn't seem all that useful as a general form, but it has niche uses. It's nice for clearing packs of smaller things, but you don't really need a form that specializes in popcorn. The healing is nice but so far I've been keeping my health fairly high in spider, so I haven't had much need to use it. I did get it to top off the 20-30 damage I took fighting some spiders, and I think that's probably the primary use case for hydra form right now: vampiric unarmed. The very short duration is annoying, but it does suit this tactical use fairly well. Transform, swing a few times to clear the popcorn and heal, and then go into another form. I currently still use blade hands for anything really dangerous.

With hydra form at 8-10% fail I mostly get 7 heads, I'm training transmutations higher, we'll see how many heads I can get. Only thing that cut heads in spider so far are emperor scorpions, and going up to 8-10 heads isn't really that noticable of a damage difference. Going from very high to very very high still just means you kill things in 1-3 hits.

The serious lack of AC is a problem but +50% hp does help. Especially when you're an ogre. I even briefly had robust, but I lost that before I found hydra form. It's been a very, very lucky run, I'll probably write up a CIP at some point later. I've been cold vulnerable for so, so long...Come on rC ring...
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 17:38

Re: Hydra form?

Hail hydra form.
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Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 17:02

Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 18:15

Re: Hydra form?

Hydra form is really really fun, it's great to be able to kill tons of popcorn at once, and get engorged at the same time.

That said, there is no reason to invest the XP in transmutation to get it castable, let alone at a good power level. Hunger and popcorn killing are both bad reasons to spend lots of XP.

So, if you find yourself for some reason able to cast it, and don't mind spending the 6 spell levels, get it, use it, and have fun with it. But don't try to use it in actually threatening situations, and remember, it doesn't heal you when you lose a head like the monster hydras do.

Blade hands is strictly better in realistic scenarios, but of course, blade hands isn't as fun.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 20:27

Re: Hydra form?

One thing it's easy to forget about blade hands is that as well as preventing most ranged attacks (as do most other forms) it also greatly reduces your spell casting success rates. This means that if you suddenly find that the fight is not going your way and need to cast blink/cblink, or even just want to renew Ozo's, Stoneskin, or Blade Hands itself, you could be in for a nasty surprise (or have to waste a turn ending the transformation first.)

AFAIK, hydra form does not have this spellcasting penalty, which is one thing in its favour. Also, +50% HP is pretty good, and can work as an effective "resistance" to a lot of damage including hellfire.

Hey, maybe hydra form should be able to use wands too (you could hold them with one of your mouths) and maybe even rods... :)

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 17:02

Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 16:23

Re: Hydra form?

But.... why would you transform to a hydra if you're going to cast spells? Why not just keep your AC and EV and cast the spells?

If you need an escape spell in a fight with blade hands, you would have been dead in that fight if you were using hydra form instead. At least, that's my experience. And I really, really wanted to like Hydra form, I used it more often than I should have, and after it almost got me killed a few times, I just stopped using it and stuck with blade hands.
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Tomb Titivator

Posts: 793

Joined: Tuesday, 28th January 2014, 16:08

Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 17:40

Re: Hydra form?

And unless you're hasted it seems like a full turn dedicated to casting a spell would be kind of a waste given the short duration of Hydra form.
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6394

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 19:00

Re: Hydra form?

Hm, what if hydra form was unique in that it was instant to transform and Untransform?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Joined: Tuesday, 13th September 2011, 20:34

Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 19:32

Re: Hydra form?

Siegurt wrote:Hm, what if hydra form was unique in that it was instant to transform and Untransform?


Then it would be unexplainably different from the other forms? Seems like a bit of a random bandaid approach...

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6394

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 20:46

Re: Hydra form?

Well, in the design space of transmutations, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room without changing something fundamental.

We don't want something at that level that's strictly worse than blade hands (the current situation) because well, then it's not useful. And we don't want something strictly *better* than blade hands, because blade hands is already damn good enough, and also then blade hands would be useless.

Earlier transmutations use elemental and poisonous effects, and continuing on that thread might be an option (Transmute into a spectral hydra and have draining heads?) however when it comes right down to it, damage is damage, and elemental *vulnerabilities* of monsters is much less interesting than elemental *resistance* on monsters. So once you have a solid source of damage that isn't resistable by elemental resistance, it's not interesting to have another elemental type of damage at around the same level.

So we have to look for other options than simple damage if we want hydra form to have value, but not be a simple replacement for blade hands.

Instant spells and abilities was just the first thing that popped into my head for something transmutations doesn't have (It's rare in general) It's certainly not *optimal* and doesn't have any specific thematic reason to be there, but in the realm of "something different" it's a thing that's valuable in some situations. (What prompted it for me was the reaction to the short duration and the comment made about how much time it takes and the spellcasting while using it)

Some other assorted things that aren't available in transmutations, and might be useful:
Positioning tools (Now that dragon form doesn't trample, which was to be clear, annoying, and not very helpful)
Escape options (Spider form used to fill this role, but it wore too many hats, it's much simpler and more direct as currently in existence)
Ranged damage (Well, dragon form has a breath weapon, but well, dragon form)
Healing/Recovery (I think this is what Hydra form is intended or, but it's implemented in an awkward way that makes it undesirable and dangerous, being able to drop out instantly was something I thought might make it less dangerous to use.)

Other(?) I'm sure there's other things which would be useful in a new mid-high level form that I didn't mention and didn't think about :)
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5333

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 00:08

Re: Hydra form?

Siegurt wrote:We don't want something at that level that's strictly worse than blade hands (the current situation) because well, then it's not useful. And we don't want something strictly *better* than blade hands, because blade hands is already damn good enough, and also then blade hands would be useless.

I agree we don't want something worse than/better than blade hands, but I would argue that calling this "the current situtation" is wrong. More below.
Siegurt wrote:Healing/Recovery (I think this is what Hydra form is intended or, but it's implemented in an awkward way that makes it undesirable and dangerous, being able to drop out instantly was something I thought might make it less dangerous to use.)

This, in addition to adding cleaving, is hydra form's intended niche. Don't underestimate cleaving. But let's go one aspect at a time:

Vampiric effect: Hydra form can eat monsters, healing for an extremely high amount. It seemed to be around 20-30 hp per 'eat', although with cleaving I've seen ridiculous things like healing for 90 hp after an attack. Do not underestimate how effective this is when fighting pack monsters. That being said, it's also dangerous to rely on it, because it's always possible that you miss the monster and it hits you before you eat it.

Cleaving effect: imho, one of the core weaknesses of most melee characters is the lack of aoe. You can't deal with swarms as effectively as most mages, Ziggs become much more challenging, summoners painful (at least if they aren't directly next to you). Axe users don't have these problems, but give up roughly 20% of their damage for the perk. Now, unarmed users (the master race) get to have their cake and eat it too.

Nutrition: Not the most important effect, but it's a nice perk that makes eating less tedious. Look at my ogre transmuter's "eat" action table:

  Code:
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |     7 |     7 |    15 |    20 |    26 |     3 |     3 |    42 ||   125
       Meat ration       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     3
       Bread ration      |       |       |       |     1 |       |     1 |       |       |     5 ||     7
       Pizza             |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |     1 |       |     7 ||    12
       Royal jelly       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    16 ||    16
       Beef jerky        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    12 ||    12


The two sections on the top line with 3 eatten chunks? Levels 19 through 24, inclusive, I ate 6 chunks (and one pizza for twelwe). This isn't really powerful, but it does feel fun. You can see in the later game I eventually shifted to statue form because AC is really important, and had to eat again.

On the topic of instant shifting: This is something that I consider deeply interesting about Hydra form's duration. Because it's so short, against normal speed monsters without much in the way of ranged attacks, you can instantly end the form already - take a step or two back. Obviously this doesn't apply as much if you're worshipping Chei, but only fools do that. This is why I pushed for less variance on hydra form's duration (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14330) and that's already coded, so you should always have a general idea, plus or minus about 2 turns, when you'll shift back. There are certainly times you want to get your armor back asap, and hydra form rewards those who pay attention. I did have one fairly obvious blunder of overconfidence when I tried to hydra form against two hydras and a swamp dragon near the swamp rune. Did not go well, but a blink away will get you out of those sorts of bad positions.

This may not be the best focused post anymore, but hopefully I've succeeded in explaining why I don't consider hydra form to be very much like blade hands at all. Did I mention hydra form removes almost all of your AC? Blade hands only removes gloves, which is quite different. Anyways. Let's call that settled.

There's still things that could be improved - it's not exactly transparent to me what hydra form is allowed to eat. It seems to be that the monster has to leave a corpse, but that isn't the only condition. It probably ignores rot/mutation corpses, and it seems to not eat dragons, not sure why. Possibly wanting to allow players to get hides? Or dragons are just to big and dragon-like to be eaten by a lesser dragon? Does the healing follow the same rules? I believe you can heal from an attack that doesn't kill the monster outright, so they aren't yet eaten. I should probably take better notes on new spells. But I suppose it shows that while these rules might be non-intuitive, it doesn't really prevent you from using the spell successfully.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6394

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 00:15

Re: Hydra form?

Well if it can be an effecive spell (for at least a reasonable portion of the game) and is neither superceded by nor a replacement for blade hands then I would suppose it is a success.

Hmm can DD heal this way?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 00:18

Re: Hydra form?

Haven't tested it, but I would assume that since they can from vampiric draining/weapons, that they should be able to from hydra form.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1182

Joined: Tuesday, 13th September 2011, 20:34

Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 08:56

Re: Hydra form?

You say elemental attacks are uninteresting, but what if you magnify one appropriately?

Hydra could be mega-poisonous (think poison arrow) and with the multi-head attacks, have the chance to seriously poison even large HD monsters, or give a mob of mid range monsters a really bad day. Not sure if this works inside of present poison mechanics, but it would be a bit different from the status quo and make poison useful again at higher levels. The added damage output (now a DoT effect as well) would further balance the form's very short duration.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 68

Joined: Friday, 3rd January 2014, 22:52

Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 10:15

Re: Hydra form?

Well, then you won't be able to heal from monsters who died of your poison.
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