Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?


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Blades Runner

Posts: 624

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 04:50

Post Thursday, 11th September 2014, 21:07

Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Or rather, is picking throwing with any species who can't throw large rocks a mistake? Because I chose throwing on my Centaur to try it out as they have good aptitudes for it in addition to being a Centaur, but it's painful to use. With 27 throwing skill, I have to throw on average four or five tomahawks to kill a single orc, because my shots either miss (60%), hit but do pathetic damage (25%), or hit and actually do some relatively decent amount of damage (15%). Is there some hidden stat modifier that I don't know about, i.e. I don't have enough Dex?

5 Tomahawks to kill an orc.
14 Tomahawks to kill an eel.
6 Steel Javelins + 30 Tomahawks to kill an orc warlord.

I almost want to just !qyes this character right now... Seriously, my artifact -2 demon trident of venom with zero levels of skill investment seems more reliable against most enemies. If this is as good as throwing gets without large rocks, I might as well give up now because there is no way I'm getting through Zot with this.
Last edited by Laraso on Thursday, 11th September 2014, 21:26, edited 3 times in total.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 742

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 12:30

Post Thursday, 11th September 2014, 21:17

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

I think throwing is improved by str. If you can't throw large rocks I'd say it's a waste. The only exception is if you want to make blowgun needles more accurate, then a few points make a difference.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8784

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 11th September 2014, 21:17

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

str should have the same effect on throwing as it does on melee now

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 329

Joined: Tuesday, 7th May 2013, 17:09

Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 01:28

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

I haven't messed around with new Throwing, really. Training Throwing to 27 sounds comically bad to me. But training a few points cheaply early on may not be bad depending on what you find. I've trained Throwing in the past with characters that found a good javelin stack, for example.
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Blades Runner

Posts: 624

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 04:50

Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 01:58

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

ackack wrote:Training Throwing to 27 sounds comically bad to me.


It was actually level 22 with a boost from Okawaru's Heroism.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 02:07

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Fighting 15, Scale Mail.

  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16-a0-330-gcc2d852
Attack: Centaur Fighter vs. black mamba (4000 rounds) (2014/09/11/21:57:25)
Centaur Fighter: XL 20   Str 18   Int 7   Dex 8
Quivering: 30 stones, Skill: Throwing
black mamba: HD 7   AC 4   EV 15

  Throwing | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      0.3 |      2 |      43% |   0.1 |   117  |  0.86 |      0.1
         1 |      0.4 |      4 |      44% |   0.2 |   115  |  0.87 |      0.2
         2 |      0.6 |      4 |      46% |   0.3 |   113  |  0.88 |      0.2
         3 |      0.7 |      5 |      45% |   0.3 |   111  |  0.90 |      0.3
         4 |      0.9 |      6 |      47% |   0.4 |   109  |  0.92 |      0.4
         5 |      1.2 |      7 |      48% |   0.6 |   108  |  0.93 |      0.5
         6 |      1.4 |      7 |      49% |   0.7 |   106  |  0.94 |      0.7
         7 |      1.7 |      8 |      49% |   0.8 |   104  |  0.96 |      0.8
         8 |      1.9 |      8 |      49% |   1.0 |   102  |  0.98 |      0.9
         9 |      2.2 |     10 |      50% |   1.1 |   101  |  0.99 |      1.1
        10 |      2.7 |     11 |      51% |   1.4 |    98  |  1.02 |      1.4
        11 |      2.9 |     13 |      51% |   1.5 |    97  |  1.04 |      1.6
        12 |      3.1 |     13 |      52% |   1.6 |    95  |  1.06 |      1.7
        13 |      3.5 |     14 |      52% |   1.8 |    93  |  1.08 |      2.0
        14 |      3.7 |     14 |      53% |   2.0 |    91  |  1.10 |      2.2
        15 |      4.2 |     15 |      54% |   2.3 |    89  |  1.12 |      2.6
        16 |      4.5 |     15 |      55% |   2.5 |    87  |  1.15 |      2.9
        17 |      4.8 |     17 |      55% |   2.7 |    86  |  1.17 |      3.1
        18 |      5.2 |     17 |      57% |   3.0 |    84  |  1.19 |      3.5
        19 |      5.4 |     18 |      58% |   3.1 |    82  |  1.22 |      3.8
        20 |      5.7 |     18 |      56% |   3.3 |    79  |  1.26 |      4.1
        21 |      6.4 |     22 |      57% |   3.7 |    78  |  1.29 |      4.7
        22 |      6.2 |     21 |      58% |   3.6 |    76  |  1.31 |      4.8
        23 |      6.6 |     23 |      59% |   3.9 |    75  |  1.34 |      5.3
        24 |      7.1 |     23 |      58% |   4.2 |    72  |  1.38 |      5.8
        25 |      7.2 |     22 |      60% |   4.4 |    70  |  1.42 |      6.2
        26 |      7.9 |     24 |      58% |   4.6 |    69  |  1.45 |      6.7
        27 |      7.8 |     26 |      60% |   4.7 |    67  |  1.50 |      7.0


  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16-a0-330-gcc2d852
Attack: Centaur Fighter vs. black mamba (4000 rounds) (2014/09/11/21:56:53)
Centaur Fighter: XL 20   Str 18   Int 7   Dex 8
Quivering: 30 tomahawks, Skill: Throwing
black mamba: HD 7   AC 4   EV 15

  Throwing | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      2.0 |      8 |      43% |   0.8 |   117  |  0.86 |      0.7
         1 |      2.6 |     11 |      44% |   1.2 |   115  |  0.87 |      1.0
         2 |      3.2 |     12 |      44% |   1.4 |   113  |  0.88 |      1.3
         3 |      3.8 |     14 |      47% |   1.8 |   111  |  0.90 |      1.6
         4 |      4.4 |     15 |      47% |   2.1 |   109  |  0.92 |      1.9
         5 |      5.0 |     17 |      48% |   2.5 |   107  |  0.93 |      2.3
         6 |      5.6 |     18 |      48% |   2.7 |   106  |  0.94 |      2.5
         7 |      6.5 |     20 |      48% |   3.2 |   104  |  0.96 |      3.1
         8 |      6.9 |     22 |      50% |   3.5 |   102  |  0.98 |      3.4
         9 |      7.7 |     25 |      50% |   3.9 |   100  |  1.00 |      3.9
        10 |      8.7 |     25 |      51% |   4.5 |    98  |  1.02 |      4.6
        11 |      9.2 |     27 |      51% |   4.8 |    96  |  1.04 |      5.0
        12 |      9.4 |     29 |      52% |   5.0 |    95  |  1.06 |      5.2
        13 |      9.9 |     30 |      52% |   5.2 |    93  |  1.08 |      5.6
        14 |     11.1 |     33 |      54% |   6.1 |    91  |  1.10 |      6.6
        15 |     11.7 |     35 |      56% |   6.6 |    89  |  1.12 |      7.4
        16 |     12.5 |     36 |      56% |   7.1 |    87  |  1.15 |      8.1
        17 |     13.0 |     37 |      55% |   7.3 |    85  |  1.17 |      8.6
        18 |     13.4 |     39 |      58% |   7.8 |    84  |  1.20 |      9.3
        19 |     14.6 |     39 |      57% |   8.5 |    82  |  1.22 |     10.3
        20 |     15.4 |     41 |      56% |   8.7 |    80  |  1.25 |     10.8
        21 |     15.9 |     43 |      58% |   9.3 |    78  |  1.29 |     11.9
        22 |     16.2 |     47 |      58% |   9.5 |    76  |  1.31 |     12.5
        23 |     16.9 |     48 |      58% |   9.8 |    74  |  1.34 |     13.2
        24 |     17.6 |     48 |      58% |  10.3 |    73  |  1.38 |     14.1
        25 |     18.5 |     50 |      59% |  11.0 |    70  |  1.42 |     15.7
        26 |     18.7 |     51 |      60% |  11.4 |    69  |  1.46 |     16.5
        27 |     20.2 |     54 |      60% |  12.1 |    67  |  1.50 |     18.1


  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16-a0-330-gcc2d852
Attack: Centaur Fighter vs. black mamba (4000 rounds) (2014/09/11/21:57:52)
Centaur Fighter: XL 20   Str 18   Int 7   Dex 8
Quivering: 30 javelins, Skill: Throwing
black mamba: HD 7   AC 4   EV 15

  Throwing | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      4.5 |     16 |      44% |   2.0 |   117  |  0.86 |      1.7
         1 |      5.1 |     17 |      45% |   2.3 |   115  |  0.87 |      2.0
         2 |      5.7 |     19 |      46% |   2.6 |   113  |  0.88 |      2.3
         3 |      6.4 |     21 |      45% |   2.9 |   111  |  0.90 |      2.6
         4 |      6.8 |     21 |      46% |   3.2 |   109  |  0.91 |      2.9
         5 |      7.7 |     25 |      47% |   3.7 |   108  |  0.93 |      3.4
         6 |      8.1 |     26 |      49% |   4.0 |   106  |  0.94 |      3.8
         7 |      9.0 |     26 |      48% |   4.3 |   104  |  0.96 |      4.2
         8 |      9.4 |     28 |      51% |   4.9 |   102  |  0.98 |      4.8
         9 |      9.9 |     31 |      52% |   5.2 |   100  |  1.00 |      5.2
        10 |     11.4 |     33 |      51% |   5.9 |    98  |  1.02 |      6.1
        11 |     11.8 |     33 |      53% |   6.2 |    96  |  1.04 |      6.5
        12 |     12.4 |     36 |      52% |   6.5 |    95  |  1.06 |      6.8
        13 |     13.4 |     37 |      54% |   7.4 |    93  |  1.08 |      7.9
        14 |     13.4 |     37 |      54% |   7.3 |    91  |  1.10 |      8.0
        15 |     14.4 |     39 |      54% |   7.9 |    89  |  1.13 |      8.8
        16 |     15.1 |     44 |      54% |   8.3 |    88  |  1.14 |      9.4
        17 |     15.6 |     46 |      55% |   8.7 |    85  |  1.17 |     10.3
        18 |     16.3 |     45 |      56% |   9.1 |    83  |  1.20 |     11.0
        19 |     16.7 |     48 |      55% |   9.3 |    82  |  1.22 |     11.4
        20 |     17.3 |     50 |      58% |  10.1 |    80  |  1.25 |     12.6
        21 |     18.1 |     50 |      56% |  10.3 |    78  |  1.29 |     13.2
        22 |     18.9 |     51 |      59% |  11.2 |    76  |  1.31 |     14.8
        23 |     20.0 |     56 |      57% |  11.5 |    74  |  1.35 |     15.6
        24 |     20.8 |     56 |      61% |  12.7 |    72  |  1.39 |     17.7
        25 |     20.9 |     56 |      58% |  12.2 |    71  |  1.41 |     17.2
        26 |     22.0 |     59 |      59% |  13.1 |    69  |  1.46 |     19.1
        27 |     22.3 |     59 |      60% |  13.5 |    67  |  1.50 |     20.1


The same character with Chei and 200 piety.

  Code:
Centaur Fighter: XL 20   Str 33   Int 22   Dex 23
Quivering: 30 stones, Skill: Throwing
black mamba: HD 7   AC 4   EV 15

  Throwing | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      0.4 |      4 |      55% |   0.2 |   115  |  0.87 |      0.2
         1 |      0.7 |      7 |      56% |   0.4 |   113  |  0.89 |      0.3
         2 |      1.0 |      7 |      56% |   0.5 |   111  |  0.90 |      0.5
         3 |      1.3 |      9 |      57% |   0.8 |   109  |  0.92 |      0.7
         4 |      1.7 |     10 |      58% |   1.0 |   107  |  0.93 |      0.9
         5 |      2.0 |     11 |      58% |   1.2 |   106  |  0.95 |      1.1
         6 |      2.4 |     12 |      58% |   1.4 |   103  |  0.97 |      1.4
         7 |      2.9 |     14 |      57% |   1.7 |   102  |  0.99 |      1.6
         8 |      3.3 |     16 |      60% |   2.0 |   100  |  1.00 |      2.0
         9 |      3.6 |     17 |      60% |   2.2 |    98  |  1.02 |      2.2
        10 |      4.0 |     17 |      60% |   2.5 |    96  |  1.04 |      2.6
        11 |      4.4 |     19 |      60% |   2.7 |    94  |  1.06 |      2.9
        12 |      5.0 |     20 |      61% |   3.1 |    92  |  1.08 |      3.3
        13 |      5.3 |     21 |      62% |   3.3 |    91  |  1.10 |      3.6
        14 |      5.9 |     24 |      62% |   3.6 |    89  |  1.13 |      4.1
        15 |      6.2 |     28 |      62% |   3.9 |    87  |  1.15 |      4.5
        16 |      6.8 |     26 |      63% |   4.3 |    85  |  1.18 |      5.1
        17 |      7.3 |     29 |      63% |   4.6 |    83  |  1.21 |      5.5
        18 |      7.6 |     29 |      63% |   4.8 |    82  |  1.23 |      5.9
        19 |      8.1 |     30 |      64% |   5.2 |    80  |  1.26 |      6.5
        20 |      8.4 |     31 |      64% |   5.4 |    78  |  1.29 |      7.0
        21 |      8.9 |     32 |      64% |   5.8 |    75  |  1.33 |      7.7
        22 |      9.8 |     37 |      65% |   6.4 |    74  |  1.35 |      8.6
        23 |      9.6 |     36 |      65% |   6.3 |    72  |  1.39 |      8.8
        24 |      9.9 |     34 |      66% |   6.6 |    70  |  1.43 |      9.4
        25 |     10.7 |     39 |      65% |   7.1 |    68  |  1.47 |     10.4
        26 |     11.4 |     39 |      66% |   7.5 |    67  |  1.50 |     11.2
        27 |     11.6 |     39 |      67% |   7.9 |    65  |  1.55 |     12.1


  Code:
Centaur Fighter: XL 20   Str 33   Int 22   Dex 23
Quivering: 30 tomahawks, Skill: Throwing
black mamba: HD 7   AC 4   EV 15

  Throwing | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      3.3 |     15 |      55% |   1.8 |   115  |  0.87 |      1.6
         1 |      4.2 |     17 |      56% |   2.3 |   113  |  0.89 |      2.1
         2 |      5.0 |     20 |      57% |   2.8 |   111  |  0.90 |      2.6
         3 |      5.8 |     24 |      56% |   3.3 |   109  |  0.92 |      3.0
         4 |      6.7 |     26 |      58% |   3.9 |   107  |  0.93 |      3.7
         5 |      7.5 |     29 |      58% |   4.4 |   105  |  0.95 |      4.2
         6 |      8.4 |     31 |      59% |   5.0 |   104  |  0.96 |      4.8
         7 |      9.7 |     36 |      59% |   5.7 |   101  |  0.99 |      5.7
         8 |     10.1 |     36 |      60% |   6.1 |   100  |  1.00 |      6.1
         9 |     11.3 |     38 |      59% |   6.7 |    98  |  1.02 |      6.9
        10 |     12.0 |     42 |      60% |   7.2 |    96  |  1.04 |      7.5
        11 |     12.7 |     44 |      61% |   7.7 |    94  |  1.06 |      8.2
        12 |     14.1 |     44 |      61% |   8.7 |    93  |  1.08 |      9.3
        13 |     14.2 |     51 |      62% |   8.8 |    90  |  1.11 |      9.8
        14 |     15.6 |     53 |      63% |   9.9 |    89  |  1.12 |     11.1
        15 |     16.4 |     53 |      63% |  10.3 |    87  |  1.16 |     11.9
        16 |     17.2 |     57 |      62% |  10.8 |    85  |  1.18 |     12.7
        17 |     18.5 |     61 |      64% |  11.8 |    83  |  1.20 |     14.3
        18 |     19.4 |     63 |      64% |  12.5 |    81  |  1.23 |     15.4
        19 |     20.7 |     70 |      63% |  13.2 |    79  |  1.26 |     16.7
        20 |     21.4 |     69 |      64% |  13.7 |    77  |  1.29 |     17.8
        21 |     22.2 |     72 |      65% |  14.5 |    76  |  1.32 |     19.0
        22 |     22.9 |     72 |      65% |  15.1 |    74  |  1.35 |     20.4
        23 |     23.5 |     78 |      64% |  15.3 |    72  |  1.39 |     21.2
        24 |     25.0 |     81 |      65% |  16.3 |    70  |  1.43 |     23.3
        25 |     25.7 |     81 |      66% |  17.2 |    68  |  1.46 |     25.3
        26 |     26.6 |     84 |      66% |  17.7 |    66  |  1.51 |     26.8
        27 |     27.8 |     87 |      66% |  18.4 |    65  |  1.54 |     28.3


  Code:
Centaur Fighter: XL 20   Str 33   Int 22   Dex 23
Quivering: 30 javelins, Skill: Throwing
black mamba: HD 7   AC 4   EV 15

  Throwing | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      6.6 |     25 |      56% |   3.7 |   115  |  0.87 |      3.2
         1 |      7.6 |     30 |      56% |   4.3 |   113  |  0.89 |      3.8
         2 |      8.1 |     30 |      56% |   4.6 |   111  |  0.90 |      4.1
         3 |      9.7 |     35 |      56% |   5.4 |   109  |  0.92 |      5.0
         4 |     10.3 |     37 |      57% |   5.9 |   107  |  0.93 |      5.5
         5 |     11.3 |     40 |      57% |   6.5 |   105  |  0.95 |      6.2
         6 |     12.2 |     41 |      59% |   7.2 |   103  |  0.97 |      7.0
         7 |     12.7 |     44 |      59% |   7.5 |   102  |  0.98 |      7.4
         8 |     13.6 |     47 |      59% |   8.0 |   100  |  1.00 |      8.0
         9 |     14.8 |     51 |      59% |   8.9 |    98  |  1.02 |      9.1
        10 |     16.0 |     52 |      61% |   9.8 |    96  |  1.04 |     10.2
        11 |     16.2 |     53 |      61% |   9.9 |    94  |  1.06 |     10.5
        12 |     17.5 |     59 |      61% |  10.8 |    92  |  1.08 |     11.8
        13 |     18.7 |     62 |      61% |  11.5 |    90  |  1.11 |     12.8
        14 |     19.2 |     64 |      62% |  12.0 |    89  |  1.13 |     13.4
        15 |     20.4 |     68 |      63% |  13.0 |    87  |  1.15 |     14.9
        16 |     21.3 |     73 |      62% |  13.4 |    85  |  1.17 |     15.7
        17 |     21.6 |     71 |      64% |  13.9 |    83  |  1.20 |     16.7
        18 |     23.2 |     75 |      63% |  14.8 |    81  |  1.23 |     18.3
        19 |     24.2 |     78 |      64% |  15.5 |    80  |  1.26 |     19.4
        20 |     24.6 |     84 |      64% |  16.0 |    78  |  1.29 |     20.5
        21 |     25.9 |     85 |      65% |  17.0 |    76  |  1.32 |     22.4
        22 |     27.4 |     82 |      65% |  17.9 |    74  |  1.35 |     24.2
        23 |     27.6 |     88 |      66% |  18.3 |    72  |  1.39 |     25.4
        24 |     29.2 |     90 |      65% |  19.2 |    70  |  1.42 |     27.5
        25 |     29.1 |     93 |      65% |  19.1 |    68  |  1.46 |     28.0
        26 |     30.3 |     94 |      65% |  19.7 |    66  |  1.51 |     29.9
        27 |     30.9 |     98 |      66% |  20.7 |    65  |  1.54 |     31.8


For comparison, Og with the same stats (and FDA).

  Code:
Ogre Fighter: XL 1   Str 18   Int 7   Dex 8
Quivering: 30 large rocks {=f}, Skill: Throwing
black mamba: HD 7   AC 4   EV 15

  Throwing | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |     11.1 |     31 |      43% |   4.8 |   117  |  0.86 |      4.1
         1 |     11.7 |     33 |      44% |   5.2 |   115  |  0.87 |      4.5
         2 |     12.3 |     37 |      45% |   5.7 |   113  |  0.88 |      5.0
         3 |     13.0 |     38 |      46% |   6.0 |   112  |  0.90 |      5.4
         4 |     13.6 |     39 |      48% |   6.6 |   110  |  0.91 |      6.0
         5 |     14.0 |     39 |      47% |   6.6 |   107  |  0.93 |      6.2
         6 |     15.2 |     44 |      49% |   7.5 |   105  |  0.95 |      7.1
         7 |     15.9 |     43 |      50% |   8.0 |   104  |  0.96 |      7.7
         8 |     15.9 |     47 |      50% |   8.1 |   102  |  0.98 |      7.9
         9 |     16.9 |     47 |      52% |   8.8 |   100  |  1.00 |      8.8
        10 |     17.2 |     47 |      51% |   8.9 |    98  |  1.02 |      9.1
        11 |     18.1 |     50 |      51% |   9.3 |    96  |  1.04 |      9.6
        12 |     18.6 |     50 |      52% |   9.7 |    95  |  1.05 |     10.2
        13 |     19.4 |     55 |      53% |  10.4 |    93  |  1.07 |     11.2
        14 |     20.4 |     56 |      55% |  11.4 |    91  |  1.10 |     12.5
        15 |     21.0 |     58 |      55% |  11.6 |    89  |  1.12 |     13.0
        16 |     21.9 |     58 |      54% |  12.0 |    87  |  1.14 |     13.7
        17 |     22.2 |     61 |      54% |  12.1 |    86  |  1.17 |     14.1
        18 |     22.3 |     61 |      58% |  13.1 |    84  |  1.19 |     15.6
        19 |     23.7 |     64 |      57% |  13.5 |    82  |  1.22 |     16.5
        20 |     24.0 |     66 |      58% |  14.0 |    80  |  1.25 |     17.5
        21 |     25.2 |     68 |      58% |  14.7 |    78  |  1.28 |     18.9
        22 |     25.6 |     68 |      60% |  15.5 |    76  |  1.31 |     20.4
        23 |     26.4 |     69 |      58% |  15.5 |    74  |  1.34 |     20.9
        24 |     27.0 |     72 |      59% |  15.9 |    73  |  1.37 |     21.8
        25 |     27.5 |     75 |      59% |  16.3 |    70  |  1.42 |     23.4
        26 |     28.5 |     75 |      61% |  17.5 |    68  |  1.46 |     25.7
        27 |     28.9 |     77 |      62% |  17.9 |    67  |  1.49 |     26.8


  Code:
Ogre Fighter: XL 1   Str 33   Int 22   Dex 23
Quivering: 30 large rocks {=f}, Skill: Throwing
black mamba: HD 7   AC 4   EV 15

  Throwing | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |     15.8 |     54 |      55% |   8.7 |   114  |  0.88 |      7.6
         1 |     16.9 |     56 |      57% |   9.6 |   112  |  0.89 |      8.6
         2 |     17.8 |     57 |      56% |  10.0 |   110  |  0.91 |      9.1
         3 |     18.0 |     61 |      56% |  10.2 |   109  |  0.92 |      9.4
         4 |     19.5 |     66 |      57% |  11.2 |   107  |  0.94 |     10.5
         5 |     20.3 |     64 |      58% |  11.8 |   105  |  0.95 |     11.2
         6 |     21.7 |     65 |      59% |  12.8 |   103  |  0.97 |     12.5
         7 |     22.3 |     69 |      59% |  13.3 |   101  |  0.99 |     13.2
         8 |     23.0 |     76 |      60% |  13.9 |    99  |  1.01 |     14.0
         9 |     23.9 |     77 |      60% |  14.4 |    98  |  1.02 |     14.7
        10 |     25.2 |     79 |      59% |  15.0 |    96  |  1.05 |     15.6
        11 |     25.0 |     81 |      63% |  15.8 |    94  |  1.06 |     16.8
        12 |     26.7 |     87 |      63% |  16.9 |    92  |  1.09 |     18.4
        13 |     26.6 |     87 |      61% |  16.4 |    90  |  1.11 |     18.2
        14 |     28.1 |     92 |      61% |  17.3 |    88  |  1.13 |     19.7
        15 |     28.8 |     96 |      61% |  17.7 |    87  |  1.15 |     20.3
        16 |     30.0 |     97 |      62% |  18.7 |    85  |  1.18 |     22.0
        17 |     30.2 |    100 |      63% |  19.1 |    83  |  1.21 |     23.0
        18 |     31.3 |    105 |      62% |  19.7 |    81  |  1.24 |     24.3
        19 |     33.1 |    112 |      62% |  20.7 |    79  |  1.26 |     26.2
        20 |     34.0 |    106 |      65% |  22.2 |    77  |  1.30 |     28.8
        21 |     35.2 |    110 |      64% |  22.6 |    75  |  1.33 |     30.1
        22 |     35.6 |    116 |      64% |  23.0 |    73  |  1.36 |     31.5
        23 |     36.9 |    116 |      64% |  23.9 |    71  |  1.40 |     33.7
        24 |     37.4 |    121 |      66% |  24.8 |    69  |  1.44 |     36.0
        25 |     37.6 |    123 |      65% |  24.6 |    68  |  1.47 |     36.2
        26 |     38.9 |    121 |      65% |  25.4 |    66  |  1.51 |     38.5
        27 |     40.0 |    125 |      67% |  26.9 |    64  |  1.56 |     42.0

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6450

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 06:30

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Laraso wrote:Or rather, is picking throwing with any species who can't throw large rocks a mistake? Because I chose throwing on my Centaur to try it out as they have good aptitudes for it in addition to being a Centaur, but it's painful to use. With 27 throwing skill, I have to throw on average four or five tomahawks to kill a single orc, because my shots either miss (60%), hit but do pathetic damage (25%), or hit and actually do some relatively decent amount of damage (15%). Is there some hidden stat modifier that I don't know about, i.e. I don't have enough Dex?

5 Tomahawks to kill an orc.
14 Tomahawks to kill an eel.
6 Steel Javelins + 30 Tomahawks to kill an orc warlord.

I almost want to just !qyes this character right now... Seriously, my artifact -2 demon trident of venom with zero levels of skill investment seems more reliable against most enemies. If this is as good as throwing gets without large rocks, I might as well give up now because there is no way I'm getting through Zot with this.


Have you trained much fighting? Fighting has as much impact on accuracy as your throwing does.

Damage for thrown weapons is d((basedamage+throwingskill)*(fighting+30)/30) (or +3.33% max damage per point of fighting)

Stones get half bonus from throwing skill (so they extra-suck)
Javelins have 2/3 the max damage of large rocks, which is a pretty large jump down in power.
OTOH throwing now does get full bonuses from slaying, and can get very fast.
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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 166

Joined: Sunday, 13th November 2011, 06:46

Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 09:49

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

On my recent OgHu I was very satisfied also by the dmg done by javelins and tomahawk too, actually I was even wondering if tomahawk of return doesn't hit twice due to how good they seemed...
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Pandemonium Purger

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Location: Limbo

Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 11:41

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Siegurt wrote:OTOH throwing now does get full bonuses from slaying, and can get very fast.

Throwing follows the exact same speed scheme as unarmed does. (Even down to the AEVP penalties.)
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 12:43

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Do all ranged weapons benefit from Fighting, or just throwing?

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 13:35

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Right now throwing should be effectively a better unarmed combat, at least as designed: it increases in speed and damage as quickly as UC, but unlike UC's 3 base damage, your base damage is equal to the base damage of what you're throwing. So, throwing anything bigger than a stone should be better than UC with the equivalent skill level.

That said, it does seem (anecdotally) like all ranged attacks in the current system have worse accuracy than the equivalent melee attack would, so there may be an unexpected factor lowering the average effective damage over time.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 16:23

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

I'll definitely confirm (non magical)ranged feels a lot less accurate than melee, however my experience with ranged characters is fairly limited, as I don't find them much fun to play.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 16:37

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

damiac wrote:my experience with ranged characters is fairly limited, as I don't find them much fun to play.


Does that include after the recent changes that removed equipment weight / carry restrictions?
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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 16:40

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Yes, although that did take a lot of the pain out of playing them.

What I find unfun about them is mainly that ranged combat just feels weak throughout the game. I have to do a lot more keypresses to make dead enemies than I have to do with a melee or magic character, and you kinda need melee even on a ranged character anyway, so I'd rather pick up a little throwing or whatever on a primarily melee character, instead of watching my arrows miss X 100 against every enemy.

I assume part of it is that ranged misses feel worse than a melee miss, which you probably don't even notice most of the time. Because I don't think ranged is actually any less accurate or powerful than melee, but for whatever reason it feels that way to me. Part of it could also be the animations slowing everything down, where with a melee weapon I can just attack as fast as I hit tab.

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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 18:00

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

^ Mainly I think it seems that way just because ranged weapons take (a little bit) more time and (a little bit) more fuss than melee, but when you multiply that several thousand times over the course of the game, it does drag things down a lot, so in real time you aren't killing as fast and thus not exploring as fast, which makes it feel weaker. Despite the fact that, say, base damage 15 (longbow) with possibility of 2 brands being applied at once is unquestionably really good.

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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 18:10

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Yeah, and when you get to the point that you have high bow skill and a good +7 longbow of damage, it feels really powerful.

It's just annoying at the beginning of the game to shoot at enemies, weaken them up, swap to the melee weapon, finish them off, collect your ammo, switch back to your bow, rinse, repeat.

It's not annoying to down a gold dragon in 3 or 4 arrows. That's the fun part.

Barkeep

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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 18:24

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

^ Word.

OP, if you are wearing very heavy armor (like plate or chain or heavier, + barding) then that might be what is making your average throwing damage a lot more "swingy," as you can get a long delay added at random. That plus a miss or two could suddenly make your throwing suck enough that you have trouble with even relatively weak stuff, and it probably only takes a few such notable instances to really stick in your mind. Unless there's some bug though, throwing (aside from stones) is basically UC except your "claws" level is based on what you are throwing.

Anyway I wouldn't quit the character. If nothing else needles are really good with high throwing, and Oka gifts them, so that would be an easy way to adapt.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 19:14

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

damiac wrote: I have to do a lot more keypresses to make dead enemies than I have to do with a melee or magic character {...} Part of it could also be the animations slowing everything down, where with a melee weapon I can just attack as fast as I hit tab.


You do realize that if you equip a launcher and have ammo and hit tab, it launches, right?
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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 19:46

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Yeah, but then it uses the through targeting, rather than targeting the square. Or it doesn't target an enemy back on a diagonal, it just shoots the arrow so that if it misses the first enemy it just hits a wall.

Usually I want to target my arrows to try to go through as many enemy squares as possible, while stopping as close to me as possible, and without falling in water.

The first condition is the only one that's really worth doing, but tab doesn't do it. But still, I don't want my nice arrows *splash*ing into the deep water.

So while tab is fine when you are only fighting 1 enemy, or enemies along an orthagonal axis, and you don't care where your arrows end up, I find myself pressing 'f' and '.' much more often. Plus a lot of finicky targeting to get the path the way I want it.

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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 22:22

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

damiac wrote:Yeah, but then it uses the through targeting, rather than targeting the square. Or it doesn't target an enemy back on a diagonal, it just shoots the arrow so that if it misses the first enemy it just hits a wall.

Usually I want to target my arrows to try to go through as many enemy squares as possible, while stopping as close to me as possible, and without falling in water.

The first condition is the only one that's really worth doing, but tab doesn't do it. But still, I don't want my nice arrows *splash*ing into the deep water.

So while tab is fine when you are only fighting 1 enemy, or enemies along an orthagonal axis, and you don't care where your arrows end up, I find myself pressing 'f' and '.' much more often. Plus a lot of finicky targeting to get the path the way I want it.

Just add this to your rcfile and it does 'f' '.' instead, "autofight_fire_stop = true". Granted, it still isn't the best when you can hit multiple enemies (as it just targets the closest), but you won't lose stuff if you have only 1 guy on screen.
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Blades Runner

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Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 04:50

Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 23:07

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

and into wrote:^ Word.

OP, if you are wearing very heavy armor (like plate or chain or heavier, + barding) then that might be what is making your average throwing damage a lot more "swingy," as you can get a long delay added at random. That plus a miss or two could suddenly make your throwing suck enough that you have trouble with even relatively weak stuff, and it probably only takes a few such notable instances to really stick in your mind. Unless there's some bug though, throwing (aside from stones) is basically UC except your "claws" level is based on what you are throwing.

Anyway I wouldn't quit the character. If nothing else needles are really good with high throwing, and Oka gifts them, so that would be an easy way to adapt.


I think you're absolutely correct here because IIRC I was wearing plate armor, and it just felt terrible. I already quit the character because even if I was capable of winning with it, it was just so un-fun I didn't even want to bother. Like, at the time, I felt I would have more fun beating my head against a wall and counting how long it takes the blood to drip to the floor.

I'll try another character later who wears leather instead of plate, and hopefully that will work better.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 12:25

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

I wonder if we're underestimating the importance of dex in hitting with ranged weapons. I don't know the code, but when I've started with Ko or HE I haven't noticed much difficulty with hitting. Maybe a centaur's bad starting dex is counting against them here...
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 12:33

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

That might be. My KoAK has been using tomahawks for ranged and they seem to work just fine. Throwing skill is currently around 14, wearing chain mail.
DCSS: 86: ...HuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu
{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz
Bloat: 8: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDr

Swamp Slogger

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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 15:06

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Why did nobody ask OP what crawl version he was playing? Because before 0.15 throwing anything but large rocks and needles was really not worth using. Laraso, try 0.15. I enjoyed throwing on both my kobolds in this tourney. Killing oof with tomahawks before it approaches is overpowered.
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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 15:09

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Yermak wrote:Why did nobody ask OP what crawl version he was playing? Because before 0.15 throwing anything but large rocks and needles was really not worth using. Laraso, try 0.15. I enjoyed throwing on both my kobolds in this tourney. Killing oof with tomahawks before it approaches is overpowered.


This was in 0.15, during the tournament.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 15:37

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

Laraso wrote:This was in 0.15, during the tournament.

Oh. Ok, then. I remember I had the exactly this feeling of uselessness on my SpHu with tomahawks in 0.14
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 19:17

Re: Is picking throwing with a Centaur a mistake?

I had a MiBe that I won during the tourney trying to get the speed demon 3 banner. Eventually I got to a point where I was getting showered in javelins (and tomahawks, but I left those). I trained up throwing to 23, fighting was also 23, and I was able to take down orbs of fire with 2-3 silver javelins in Zot. I think throwing is in a pretty good spot right now.
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