Rod hunger


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 17:19

Rod hunger

Why do rods induce so much hunger and have minimum of 50 satiation points per evocation? Was it done to weaken rods?
I am playing an evocations-based character who wields a rod of clouds by default and I get to very hungry and below in many battles. It looks like players can spam level 9 spells with staff of energy or just very high spellcasting*intelligence but even as Dg with Evocations as highest skill I cannot spam rod of clouds/ignition and it reduces fun :(
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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 18:11

Re: Rod hunger

Sandman25 wrote:Why do rods induce so much hunger and have minimum of 50 satiation points per evocation? Was it done to weaken rods?
I am playing an evocations-based character who wields a rod of clouds by default and I get to very hungry and below in many battles. It looks like players can spam level 9 spells with staff of energy or just very high spellcasting*intelligence but even as Dg with Evocations as highest skill I cannot spam rod of clouds/ignition and it reduces fun :(

Reducing fun seems to be the primary goal of nerfs in most games. At least from the player's perspective. Balance is inherently unfun when it reduces advantage for players.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 18:14

Re: Rod hunger

Sandman25 wrote:Rod hunger



:mrgreen:
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 18:34

Re: Rod hunger

Hopeless wrote:Reducing fun seems to be the primary goal of nerfs in most games. At least from the player's perspective. Balance is inherently unfun when it reduces advantage for players.


I see. I believe that staff of energy (even before merging with staff of channeling) was a much more balance-breaking item. A single item allows to spam spells of every level. Rods are naturally limited by MP and there is no easy way to recharge them in battle (CBoE, Sif Muna, staff of energy). It looks like I wasted 7 scrolls of recharging :(
Last edited by Sandman25 on Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 18:35

Re: Rod hunger

XuaXua wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Rod hunger



:mrgreen:


Well, isn't it clear from my messages that I have serious problems with English?
Spell hunger, rod hunger, sounds good and very similar IMHO :)

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 18:40

Re: Rod hunger

I don't think it would be unbalanced for hunger from rods to be lessened if not eliminated. There used to be hunger costs for lots of other stuff (like different rings at one point had certain per turn hunger costs, IIRC, though I think that was pre-stone soup). Hunger from evoking rods might just be a holdover from when hunger costs were tacked onto different mechanics, not always very judiciously.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 18:48

Re: Rod hunger

Spoiler: show
"Rod" can be slang term for penis, so XuaXua finds the phrase "Rod hunger," taken out of context, to be amusing.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 20:27

Re: Rod hunger

it is pretty weird that rods cause hunger and wands don't, imo

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 20:42

Re: Rod hunger

Also I am not sure if new evocables like lamp of fire cause hunger, I've seen many players have 10+ of them in inventory and they are probably even more powerful than most rods
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 21:44

Re: Rod hunger

I'm pretty sure misc evokables don't cause any hunger because I use them all the time and have never noticed going hungry from using them.

(Yes there is a problem that they are very powerful and take up a lot of inventory space because I just want to have them all but that's another discussion.)
DCSS: 77: ...SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDAr
HaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWr
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Post Wednesday, 3rd September 2014, 22:36

Re: Rod hunger

Wondered the same thing myself, Sandman. I'd be glad to see it gone from the game as well.
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Post Thursday, 4th September 2014, 00:25

Re: Rod hunger

Yes, the "new" zero hunger staff of energy seems kinda like a no-brainer for a lot characters, even over enhancer staffs. The old one was still good (0.33 hunger)- it certainly seems inconsistent to have rod hunger still going strong. BTW, reading a scroll of recharge will recharge a rod fully, very useful if one has a lot of them.

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Sandman25

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Post Thursday, 4th September 2014, 13:23

Re: Rod hunger

Some rods do cause considerable hunger (that's for you, XuaXua), but I've never found that it's a significant problem. Most of them you only need to use once or maybe twice per encounter, and at the end you can just eat all the corpses; hunger solved. You mention ending up Very Hungry at the end of fights, and I don't see any issue with that. If anything, I'd say that the hunger rods cause (XuaXua) does virtually nothing to moderate how great it is to use rods (XuaXua).

The real limitation on spamming rods is how many charges they have, and if you want to get a rod ready to use faster, you either need to work on your skills or else make use of a consumable to give it a little extra pep (XuaXua) as le_nerd mentioned above.

I don't think it makes much sense to compare rod hunger to staff of energy or demigod/chei stats, since those are exceptions rather than the rule, but even very high spell hunger doesn't actually limit spell-spamming. I spent from D:15 to Depths spamming Chain Lightning with full-bars hunger on a character recently and still had a significant stockpile of bread rations by mid-Depths after turning all other food sources off of auto-pickup and ignoring them; there's no way that any rod you're using causes more hunger than that, no matter how often you take it out for a spin (XuaXua).

So, overall, I don't think rod hunger actually has any meaningful impact on gameplay in the overwhelming majority of cases, and so I don't particularly think that it's an issue worth resolving or a mechanic worth keeping -- whether it goes or stays makes no difference to me. No matter how hungry it makes me, I'll always be excited to find and use a good rod (XuaXua).

Edit: I would probably never use staff of energy unless 1) I am using it for channeling, or 2) I have literally nothing else useful to wield.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 4th September 2014, 13:31

Re: Rod hunger

Lasty,

I had +9 rod of clouds, +7 rod of ignition, +7 rod of inaccuracy, + 5 rod of lightning on a character with 21 Evocations and I wanted to spend all those charges in every battle. Some fights were so long that those rods recharged and I was able to use them again. But it forced me to eat in the middle of a fight and it reduced fun. I am not saying so high usage of rods was optimal, but it was definitely fun and my main goal in that game (started as DgAr in order to use Evocations as soon as possible and to avoid care about piety while waiting for rods to recharge). I used rods 870 times ;)

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Post Thursday, 4th September 2014, 16:07

Re: Rod hunger

The time where it annoyed me the most was while playing a Spriggan Artificer. I eventually stopped using them due to how deeply it was cutting into my permanent food supply.
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Post Thursday, 4th September 2014, 16:35

Re: Rod hunger

Well, rods are also a major interface hassle. I usually won't use them simply because it's such a pain in the ass to change weapon, evoke a couple times, and change back, remembering not to accidentally leave the rod equipped and have 0 melee ability, and the hunger on top of it only makes it more of a hassle to use.

If rods could just be used like wands, I'm sure I would use them a lot more. It also seems that the hunger reduction should work the same way it does with spells and spellcasting, meaning really high evo would mean 0 hunger.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 4th September 2014, 16:43

Re: Rod hunger

Right, I don't understand why rods are not inscribed with !a by default (except rod of striking of course).

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Post Thursday, 4th September 2014, 21:40

Re: Rod hunger

inscribing rod of striking with !a sounds good to me

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Post Friday, 5th September 2014, 00:10

Re: Rod hunger

duvessa wrote:inscribing rod of striking with !a sounds good to me


Do you mean it is weak in melee? I agree, demon whip is much better.

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Post Friday, 5th September 2014, 01:03

Re: Rod hunger

To be fair 50 hunger for using a rod is pretty much meaningless (but of course this is also an argument that it might as well be 0 instead).

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Post Friday, 5th September 2014, 01:20

Re: Rod hunger

crate wrote:To be fair 50 hunger for using a rod is pretty much meaningless (but of course this is also an argument that it might as well be 0 instead).


Player can be satiated at 2601 nutrition point and starving at 999, difference is just 1602 satiation points so yes, 33 evocations of 50 hunger is a lot. Level 6 rods (clouds and ignition) cause 380 hunger per use with Evocations 27, it is only 5 uses to get to starving (as far as I remember rods cannot be used at starving level).
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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 18:13

Re: Rod hunger

I'm currently playing a Spriggan with 11 Evocations and a Rod of Ignition. Hunger is huge with this combination; I wonder if hunger should be reduced further by higher values of Evocations.
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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 18:43

Re: Rod hunger

What if we had a rod of creamy sustenance that gave a random amount of satiation each time it was invoked, reducing in power as the rod is spent, but which left the player deeply unsatisfied and craving more if you made the mistake of trying to squeeze an empty rod? Could also make it so the rod had an unknown number of shots at all times. It could have a have a melee special: "You bludgeon Erica in the face with your rod of creamy sustenance, and accidentally discharge right in her face! Ooops! Erica is blinded by the cream."

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 18:55

Re: Rod hunger

Solution: Combo with hydra form to eat monsters and get up to full status.

More seriously - I think the 50 min hunger isn't that big of a deal, but didn't realize that you can't reach that even with 27 evo for level 6 rods. I'd probably increase how much hunger each level of evocations takes off? Removing the min 50 would be fine too, but I think being able to reach it at reasonable evo levels is probably a bigger issue.

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 20:18

Re: Rod hunger

What does hunger on rods actually accomplish? They're already quite balanced by their own limited charges after all. And there aren't any special evokables or spells that refill them, like there are with player MP.

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 20:33

Re: Rod hunger

I don't think rod hunger has significant strategic relevance (i.e. reducing permafood stockpiles) for anyone except maybe spriggans, but have definitely found it to have tactical relevance, i.e. if I use a few level 6 rod charges at the start of the fight I can get to near starving almost immediately, and starving soon after. This can be quite dangerous, so when thinking about whether to use rods at the start of a difficult fight it is sometimes necessary to consider current satiation levels.

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Post Friday, 5th December 2014, 23:00

Re: Rod hunger

What if we had a rod of creamy sustenance that gave a random amount of satiation each time it was invoked, reducing in power as the rod is spent, but which left the player deeply unsatisfied and craving more if you made the mistake of trying to squeeze an empty rod?
this would only work if they all ided as small rods, for realism
seriously though rod hunger is basically just there so you don't instantly win if you get an early rod, you might have to melee a couple rats or something (ok to be fair this isn't as true anymore)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 6th December 2014, 05:15

Re: Rod hunger

I have no problem with hunger from rods. I just think that it should be reduced further at higher levels of Evoc.

What this sort of thing would need is an analysis of hunger from Rods vs. an analysis of hunger from equivalent spells, then a comparison based on investment in Evoc. vs. equivalent investment in Spellcasting/Spell Skill/Intelligence. In that sense, it might help to have the + modifier of the rod act as an Int-enhancer. Since rods are rarely used for melee combat, this would give further incentive to spend recharge scrolls on rods, though it might overpower Deep Dwarves.
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Post Sunday, 7th December 2014, 17:15

Re: Rod hunger

I was thinking of something similar the other day, my idea was to count rod enchant as evoc skill for rod use including rod hunger, and rod hunger becoming capped at (evoc+rod enchant)=(rod spell level *4).

Like this a level 6 rod spell would become hunger free at (evoc+enchant)=24, for example 18evoc and +6rod.

Of course if hunger goes away in some sort of near future this would be meaningless but is there any chance of that?

edit: as for the thing that rod hunger limits the power of early strong rod finds, from my experience it means if big threat found, run away to safe spot to eat till engorged, then go blast big threat, hunger is of little to no relevance when I game it right. What DOES matter is rod spell success, that's really it.

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Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 16:19

Re: Rod hunger

Rod hunger matters in that I will not use rods generally due to the hassle of having to equip them, shoot the spells, equip my real weapon, and then eat some food.

However, I don't see how this balances early game rods any more than late game rods. It's just as annoying late game as it is early game.

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Post Tuesday, 9th December 2014, 17:13

Re: Rod hunger

damiac wrote:Rod hunger matters in that I will not use rods generally due to the hassle of having to equip them, shoot the spells, equip my real weapon, and then eat some food.

However, I don't see how this balances early game rods any more than late game rods. It's just as annoying late game as it is early game.


I'll use one rod at a time, since swapping with ' isn't that bad to deal with.

I would definitely like to see rods become evocable from the inventory without wielding, like n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶d̶s̶ every other evocable item. That would cut down the hassle. Likewise, I think that rods should no longer count as melee weapons (attacking with one would be 'clumsy bashing'.)

I'm fine with hunger as a way of further differentiating them from wands.
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Post Monday, 2nd February 2015, 11:18

Re: Rod hunger

Evocations should reduce rod hunger more than it currently does.
spriggans need to be quite conservative of rod usage, even though they have one of the best apts for it.
also compared to spells and their hunger (that can be reduced to 0 by 2 ways) you don't get your guaranteed spell from the rod and have to swap weapon to use one.

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