High Level Poison Spells

[snow]

There aren't any high level poison spells. The highest level poison spell is poisonous cloud. For a level 9 poison spell, I feel that converting all damage taken to poison (as long as you aren't immune to poison) would be on the same level as tornado. If that's too strong then possibly some percentage based based on spell power could be converted.

It would be nice to have at least one high level poison spell though.

[jejorda2]

I think having no high level poison spells is as okay as having no two handed short blades.

[KoboldLord]

Poison Arrow is already one of the best mid-to-late-game single-target conjurations in the game, arguably the very best because it deals incredible damage for something that is so accessible. Poisonous Cloud is one of the most mp-efficient screen-clearing area denial spells. Don't think of poison magic as having no high-level spells, think of it as having excellent high-level spells that cost less than half the xp that they have any right to be costing and that have a mp discount, too.

[Lasty]

I used to feel the same way as the OP, but I've become convinced that it actually makes the Poison school more interesting to have it differ from the elemental school -- fewer spells, no high level spells, but lots of power at low levels. You then have to make choices about whether it's worth investing for the short-term power boost at the expense of some long-term power. If there's a problem with the school, it's that Poison Arrow is amazing all the time.

[snow]

That argument is basically the same as "there should be no high level charms because haste is good enough."

Yes, you can invest a little bit of experience to get some low hanging fruit, but there should also be the option to go further. Right now getting poison cloud online only requires a tiny bit of experience and you also get half way to deflect missiles and poison arrow for free by doing so. Having the option to invest further than that adds an interesting choice.

Also, spending a tiny amount of experience on low level spells isn't a sacrifice. You can gain poison cloud and trivialize a large portion of the game (including most of Zot!) for the cost of maybe 1 point of evasion if that. The game currently encourages spreading your experience into a bunch of different skills because the experience curve is so steep that you can gain a ton of levels is a ton of skills for the cost of maybe 0.2 levels in a high level skill. Interesting skill choices only exist if those hard to get spells exist and having a bunch of easy to gain low level spells just leaves you with tons of extra experience to either max out fighting and spellcasting or go for firestorm or whatever.

[Sar]

3 school level 6 spell is not really low level or low cost. I think.

[snow]

It is when 2/3 of those are essentials for anyone casting spells and comes with a free poison arrow. Also meph cloud is the same thing: 3 schools, requires some investment, but honestly the investment is like one death yak and lets you trivialize things like anacondas and easily escape from some otherwise deadly packs.

A small experience investment for low level spells is NOT an interesting choice when the alternative is like half a level in a high level school that you don't even really need.

[Sar]

A lot of my characters who cast spells did not invest in Conj, Air or Poison. I guess those are not as essential.

[snow]

Do you go Kiku a lot? I guess with necromancy you have alternatives to conjurations, but you do have a point. Still, in the context of this thread, the existence of say tornado wouldn't make your Kiku follower reach for lightning bolt.

For me at least I basically beat the game with all the low hanging fruit since the high level stuff isn't worth it unless you're going for 15 runes and even then you can get those by just doing tomb and slime. The choice is either get all the low level stuff (6 and lower) and have tons of experience left over, or over train something like spellcasting.

[Sar]

Yeah, Necromancer were the first thing I though of, but Summoners also probably don't want Conj, Air or Poison. But even then, I love PCloud, but I probably wouldn't get it on, like, FE/IE/EE unless I got it really early and had silly Poison apt (though I do play Nagas a lot). I mean, I have spells in schools I've already trained so, why bother?

PArrow is slightly different since it's so strong and also is cheaper, but it's a very rare spell so I think it's OK. One of my last chars got it before Lair (Veh gift) and it influenced my skill training.

[snow]

Yeah, Necromancer were the first thing I though of, but Summoners also probably don't want Conj, Air or Poison. But even then, I love PCloud, but I probably wouldn't get it on, like, FE/IE/EE unless I got it really early and had silly Poison apt (though I do play Nagas a lot). I mean, I have spells in schools I've already trained so, why bother?

PArrow is slightly different since it's so strong and also is cheaper, but it's a very rare spell so I think it's OK. One of my last chars got it before Lair (Veh gift) and it influenced my skill training.

Once you reach the Lair neither your starting background nor your aptitudes matter at all. Just memorize every good spell you find regardless of the school. I know it sounds silly but I've been casting iron shot on -3 apt species since forever ago and I've never had an issue with experience; at worst you end up with a few less levels in spellcasting or dodging but it's well worth it.

Though, this is all a bit off topic. The fact that the experience curve is so steep means that the existence of spells like fire storm or tornado shouldn't effect your choice of learning fireball or deflect missiles. So there's no interesting choices lost by introducing high level poison spells; only interesting choices gained.

[Turukano]

Once you reach the Lair neither your starting background nor your aptitudes matter at all.

???

[Leafsnail]

If level 9 spells aren't worth learning then they don't really introduce decisions or help strategically distinguish schools. They can be fun though, and if someone came up with a good idea for a level 9 poison spell I think there's no reason to oppose it (but also no reason to try and force one into the game).

[and into]

I agree with Leafsnail. This topic frequently comes up, and I think it inverts the flow of good design. Spells that appear in starting books have some other priorities too, I think, but otherwise if you get a cool idea for a spell, code it up or lobby someone else to do so. If devs think it adds something neat to the game, it will probably be added. If it happens to be high level and belong to the poison school, fine, but that's rather beside the point.

Saying "there's not a high level poison spell, so let's add one" is kind of like saying "there is no god in crawl that gifts rings, let's come up with one." Putting aside the question begging (you should demonstrate, rather than assume, that the game should have a high level poison spell), and just speaking pragmatically, I don't think that approach to design tends to produce good proposals. Usually they feel forced and inorganic.

[Sar]

Seems like waste of XP spent to me, tbh. It's not like Iron Shot is massively better than other level 6 spells anyway. Of course I might not have those spells, but in that case I will just buff up my melee.

[Kate]

Moved to advice since this is mostly stuff about XP and aptitudes and spell skills or something and not any kind of actual GDD suggestion.