Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain


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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 18

Joined: Friday, 13th January 2012, 09:18

Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 08:54

Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Hi

I've got a GrGl going well with some decent AC and I'm wondering what weapon to use. My main up until now has been a +6+6 lajatang of pain, but I was hoping for a staff of earth - which I've now got. I've trained nothing but Earth magic for a while, and it's now up to 14. I'm not planning on casting any spells.

My questions are:

1. is the staff of earth actually better than my lajatang?

2. what level should I train Earth to?

I'm planning on investing in fighting and bows after I've finished training Earth.

Dump:

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-1403-g2cecdf4 (tiles) character file.

Grinning Idiot the Stickfighter (GrGl)             Turns: 43479, Time: 03:48:39

HP 122/122       AC 53     Str 31      XL: 18   Next: 78%
MP  26/26        EV  8     Int  9      God: Qazlal [******]
Gold 2717        SH  8     Dex 10      Spells:  1 memorised, 13 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis .     Z - staff of earth
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     W - +2 plate armour of the Dungeon {MR++ Acc+5 Dam+2}
rNeg   + . .     rCorr    .     (no shield)
rPois  +         rRot     +     A - +2 helmet
rElec  +         Spirit   .     k - +2 cloak {MR+}
SustAb .         Warding  .     I - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   .     q - +0 pair of boots "Chicomoc" {rPois rC+}
Gourm  .                        H - amulet of rage
MR     ++++.                    c - +4 ring of strength
                                z - +6 ring of protection

@: flying, repel missiles, incredibly resistant to hostile enchantments,
extremely unstealthy
A: able to fly continuously, large and strong wings, iridescent scales 1, fast
metabolism 1, low mp 1, life protection 1, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +13
a: Stop Flying, Upheaval, Elemental Force, Disaster Area, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Berserk Rage


You are on level 3 of the Swamp.
You worship Qazlal.
Qazlal is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and seen 38 of its levels.
You have also visited: Ice Cave.

You have collected 3568 gold pieces.
You have spent 851 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +6,+6 lajatang of pain
 e - an uncursed longbow of flaming
 p - a +1,+2 longbow of evasion
 P - the +9,+9 Staff of Wucad Mu
   (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)
Missiles
 i - 20 poisoned arrows
Armour
 k - a +2 cloak of magic resistance (worn)
 q - the +0 pair of boots "Chicomoc" (worn) {rPois rC+}
   (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
 A - a +2 helmet (worn)
 I - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 Q - a +1 pair of boots of jumping
 W - the +2 plate armour of the Dungeon (worn) {MR++ Acc+5 Dam+2}
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your accuracy with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+5).
   It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+2).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Magical devices
 b - a forked lead wand
 r - a wand of draining {zapped: 1}
 s - a wand of invisibility (4)
 w - a wand of fireball {zapped: 2}
 y - a wand of cold (5)
 D - a wand of disintegration
 K - a wand of cold {zapped: 6}
 M - a wand of cold
 Y - a wand of teleportation (5)
Comestibles
 f - 10 bread rations
 n - 4 meat rations
 R - 2 royal jellies
 X - 3 chunks of giant frog flesh
Scrolls
 g - 9 scrolls of teleportation
 B - 13 scrolls of remove curse
 C - 3 scrolls of fear
 E - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
 J - 7 scrolls of identify
 L - 2 scrolls of blinking
 N - 3 scrolls of fog
 S - a scroll of enchant weapon II
Jewellery
 c - a +4 ring of strength (right hand)
 h - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
 o - an uncursed amulet of guardian spirit
 z - a +6 ring of protection (left hand)
 F - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 G - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 H - an amulet of rage (around neck)
 O - an amulet of stasis
 U - a ring of positive energy
Potions
 d - a potion of porridge
 j - 2 potions of berserk rage
 l - 4 potions of heal wounds
 m - 2 potions of might
 t - 8 potions of curing
 u - 5 potions of agility
 x - 2 potions of haste
 T - 4 potions of restore abilities
Books
 v - a book of Burglary   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Swiftness                          Charms/Air                   2
   Passwall                           Transmutation/Earth          3
   Passage of Golubria                Translocation                4
   Lee's Rapid Deconstruction         Earth                        5
   Invisibility                       Hexes                        6
   Darkness                           Hexes                        7
Magical staves
 Z - an uncursed staff of earth (weapon)


   Skills:
 - Level 16.6 Fighting
 - Level 19.1 Staves
 - Level 2.6 Bows
 - Level 2.0 Throwing
 - Level 16.6 Armour
 - Level 2.4 Dodging
 * Level 14.1 Earth Magic
 - Level 9.0 Evocations


You have 13 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Leda's Liquefaction   Hex/Erth       ###.......   85%         4    #####..


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (4/4) D:12
    Elf (2/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:10          Swamp (3/5) Lair:3
  Snake (5/5) Lair:5        Slime (0/6) Lair:8       Vaults (0/5) D:13
 Depths (0/5) D:15       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:11 (   D:12 :   D:13 %   D:14 [   Orc:2 (   Orc:4 !:[[   Elf:1 =   Snake:1 :

Annotations:
Swamp:2 exclusion: Roxanne, Roxanne
Snake:4 Vashnia


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
You are immune to poison.
You can fly continuously.
Your stone body is very resilient (AC +13).
Your wings are large and strong.
You resist negative energy.
You are resistant to electric shocks.
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are immune to rotting.
You are partially covered in iridescent scales (AC +4).
You have a fast metabolism.
Your magical capacity is low (-10% MP).


Message History

g - 9 scrolls of teleportation (gained 1)
V - a scroll of enchant armour
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Enchant which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
As you read the scroll of enchant armour, it crumbles to dust.
Your +1 cloak of magic resistance glows green for a moment.
Unknown command.
WARNING: ABOUT TO ENTER WIZARD MODE!
If you continue, your game will not be scored!
Do you really want to enter wizard mode?
Okay, then.
key_to_command(): command 'CMD_NO_CMD' (965:114) wrong for desired context
Unknown command.
key_to_command(): command 'CMD_NO_CMD' (965:114) wrong for desired context
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.

            .♣
  ♣        .P.♣
♣♣...♣   ♣.....♣♣
♣.#...♣ ♣≈......♣
♣.#.#.♣♣♣.≈.#.#.≈
♣...#.♣♣...(#....
♣......♣....#.#.§
♣§...............
♣..# #...........
♣.§###.....#).#..
♣§@..........##..
♣......##.......≈
♣♣.§#.#..#§.#....
 ♣♣...##........♣
  ♣♣..........(♣♣
   ♣♣.........♣♣
    ♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Norris (Snake:3)
  A tentacled monstrosity (Swamp:1)
  Rupert (D:13)
  2 greater nagas (Snake:5)
  A fire giant (D:15)
  Maud (Swamp:1)
  A ghoul (Swamp:1)
  A stone giant (D:15)
  2 rakshasas (D:14)
  Azrael (Snake:3)
  A fire dragon (D:15)
  Josephine (D:15)
  12 hydras
  Fannar (D:14)
  An ice dragon (Lair:4)
  11 naga warriors
  The ghost of Presuming Ed the Fighter, a powerful DsAK of Lugonu (IceCv)
  Nessos (Swamp:1)
  14 anacondas
  2 ogre magi
  5 alligators
  10 death yaks
  2 tengu warriors
  A spriggan berserker (Swamp:2)
  4 shock serpents
  4 centaur warriors
  9 naga sharpshooters
  Nergalle (Orc:3)
  10 deep elf knights
  6 salamander mystics
  A fire crab (D:14)
  4 unseen horrors
  2 spriggan druids (Swamp:2)
  4 naga ritualists
  2 wizards (D:13)
  3 swamp dragons
  10 mana vipers
  3 ice statues (IceCv)
  4 deep elf summoners (Elf:1)
  14 hill giants
  A lindwurm (Lair:4)
  2 deep trolls (Orc:4)
  Pikel (D:7)
  5 orc knights
  5 deep elf conjurers
  Joseph (D:7)
  4 red wasps
  5 cyclopes
  A shining eye (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  2 manticores
  2 orc sorcerers
  A griffon (Lair:3)
  18 elephants
  18 black mambas
  Maurice (Orc:2)
  14 naga magi
  10 spiny frogs
  3 guardian serpents
  11 salamanders
  A gargoyle (D:10)
  11 komodo dragons
  A feature mimic (D:12)
  A centaur zombie (D:15)
  A kobold demonologist (D:14)
  2 demonic crawlers (Elf:1)
  2 efreet
  A yaktaur (D:15)
  A red devil (D:14)
  2 freezing wraiths
  An elf (shapeshifter) (Elf:1)
  A harpy zombie (D:15)
  8 fire drakes
  13 trolls
  A hydra zombie (D:15)
  2 centaur skeletons (D:15)
  2 jumping spiders (Elf:1)
  A polar bear (Lair:7)
  10 two-headed ogres
  Prince Ribbit (D:7)
  A boulder beetle (D:14)
  4 giant leeches
  7 baby alligators
  5 ravens
  7 bog bodies
  11 blink frogs
  16 slime creatures
  3 wyverns
  3 spriggans (Swamp:2)
  8 redbacks (Elf:1)
  A formicid (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  A griffon skeleton (D:14)
  3 wraiths
  10 deep elf magi
  3 tarantellas (Elf:1)
  A basilisk (Lair:8)
  3 fire elementals (Snake:3)
  3 sharks
  48 yaks
  12 ugly things
  9 shadows
  13 vampire mosquitoes
  3 humans (D:10)
  36 wolves
  An elf skeleton (D:15)
  43 nagas
  20 deep elf fighters (Elf:1)
  A hungry ghost (D:7)
  4 wargs (Orc:2)
  9 hippogriffs
  13 swamp worms
  2 centaur simulacra
  A hill giant skeleton (D:15)
  A mottled dragon (D:15)
  4 hell hounds (Snake:3)
  2 gnoll sergeants
  2 soldier ants
  10 porcupines
  27 water moccasins
  A hydra simulacrum (D:11)
  A manticore zombie (D:15)
  3 necrophages
  36 ogres
  32 ice beasts
  4 sky beasts
  5 black bears
  3 phantoms
  A boring beetle (Lair:8)
  25 orc warriors
  3 centaurs
  17 crocodiles
  Sigmund (D:7)
  4 big kobolds
  2 komodo dragon zombies
  A komodo dragon skeleton (D:11)
  6 insubstantial wisps (Swamp:2)
  18 giant frogs
  A wyvern skeleton (D:12)
  A scorpion (D:12)
  6 wights
  2 tengu zombies (D:15)
  16 killer bees
  A hippogriff skeleton (D:14)
  The ghost of Grinning Idiot the Twirler, a weakling GrGl (D:3)
  6 crimson imps
  An iron imp (IceCv)
  2 quasits
  7 electric eels
  4 iguanas
  2 big fish
  A goliath beetle (D:7)
  6 hounds
  2 jellies
  19 orc priests
  25 orc wizards
  2 gnoll shamans
  4 spectral orcs (Orc:3)
  A troll simulacrum (D:11)
  2 orange rats (Elf:1)
  14 sheep
  10 worker ants
  An ogre zombie (D:6)
  A shapeshifter simulacrum (D:11)
  Jessica (D:2)
  A mummy (D:10)
  19 gnolls
  35 adders
  54 green rats
  2 worker ant zombies
  An orc skeleton (D:10)
  4 shadow imps
  2 giant mites
  3 white imps (D:11)
  4 worms
  An orc simulacrum (D:11)
  An ooze (D:2)
  184 orcs
  2 ball pythons (D:2)
  3 giant cockroaches
  15 goblins
  19 hobgoblins
  3 jackals
  31 kobolds
  18 quokkas
  19 bats
  4 giant geckos
  11 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:14)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:7)
  A jackal skeleton (D:6)
  An orc zombie (Orc:3)
  16 rats
  A rat skeleton (D:8)
  4 ballistomycetes
  5 bushes (Lair:7)
  74 fungi
  51 plants
1568 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  An ogre mage (Orc:4)
  A black mamba (Snake:5)
  An orc warrior (D:11)
  A centaur (D:14)
  3 slaves (D:7)
  A scorpion (D:7)
  An electric eel (Lair:4)
  A hound (Lair:4)
  An elf simulacrum (D:14)
  2 adders (D:7)
  4 gnolls (D:7)
  5 orcs
  A hobgoblin (D:7)
  3 jackals (D:7)
  A quokka (D:9)
  4 giant spores
  2 ballistomycetes (D:14)
  A bush (Lair:7)
  6 fungi
  5 plants
45 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1613 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Grinning Idiot, the Gargoyle Gladiator, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 12/12 MP: 1/1
   226 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 17/17 MP: 2/2
   359 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
   494 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 20/22 MP: 3/3
  1176 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 25/27 MP: 4/4
  1677 | D:2      | Noticed Jessica
  1695 | D:2      | Killed Jessica
  1695 | D:2      | Reached skill level 4 in Staves
  1792 | D:2      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 29/32 MP: 5/5
  2062 | D:2      | Noticed an ice beast
  2650 | D:3      | Gained mutation: Your magical capacity is low (-10% MP). [potion of mutation]
  2650 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in iridescent scales (AC +4). [potion of mutation]
  2650 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You have a fast metabolism. [potion of mutation]
  3434 | D:2      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 35/38 MP: 5/5
  3470 | D:3      | Noticed Grinning Idiot's ghost (weakling GrGl)
  3623 | D:3      | Killed Grinning Idiot's ghost
  3983 | D:3      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  4438 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4469 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4622 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Qazlal Stormbringer
  4747 | D:4      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  4789 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Staves
  4789 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 37/44 MP: 6/6
  5327 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5359 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  5359 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  5724 | D:5      | Reached skill level 6 in Staves
  5724 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Bows
  5724 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 48/50 MP: 7/7
  5844 | D:5      | Acquired Qazlal's first power
  7206 | D:7      | Noticed Pikel
  7224 | D:7      | Killed Pikel
  7224 | D:7      | Reached skill level 7 in Staves
  7224 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 56/56 MP: 7/10
  7496 | D:7      | Noticed Joseph
  7498 | D:7      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
  7534 | D:7      | Killed Joseph
  7826 | D:7      | Killed Prince Ribbit
  7999 | D:7      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  7999 | D:7      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  8066 | D:7      | Acquired Qazlal's second power
  8184 | D:7      | Noticed Sigmund
  8192 | D:7      | Killed Sigmund
  8192 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Staves
  8502 | D:7      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 62/64 MP: 15/15
  9346 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
  9470 | D:9      | Acquired Qazlal's third power
  9784 | D:9      | Got a pearl-encrusted plate armour
  9806 | D:9      | Identified the +2 plate armour of the Dungeon {MR++ Acc+5 Dam+2} (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
  9951 | D:9      | Noticed a three-headed hydra
  9995 | D:9      | Killed a three-headed hydra
  9995 | D:9      | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
 10211 | D:9      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 10235 | D:9      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 10235 | D:9      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 10438 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 10497 | D:10     | Acquired Qazlal's fourth power
 10550 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 71/71 MP: 18/18
 10873 | D:10     | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 11130 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 11166 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 11778 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 11778 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
 11810 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Staves
 11975 | Lair:1   | Acquired Qazlal's fifth power
 12914 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 76/79 MP: 20/20
 13580 | Lair:3   | Got a jewelled leather armour
 13590 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting
 13673 | Lair:2   | Identified the +2 leather armour "Uluw" {Dex+2 Int-2} (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
 14035 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 14918 | Lair:4   | Noticed an ice dragon
 15405 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 15586 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 12 in Staves
 15586 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 85/85 MP: 22/22
 15730 | Lair:5   | Found a frozen archway.
 15766 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 15768 | IceCv    | Noticed Presuming Ed's ghost (powerful DsAK)
 15793 | IceCv    | Killed Presuming Ed's ghost
 18322 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 13 in Staves
 18444 | Lair:7   | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 19077 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 19308 | Lair:8   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 19308 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 19317 | Lair:8   | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 19401 | Lair:8   | Gained mutation: Your wings are large and strong. [gargoyle growth]
 19401 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 62/92 MP: 23/23
 19732 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 14 in Staves
 21002 | Lair:4   | Killed an ice dragon
 21586 | Snake:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit
 21726 | Snake:1  | Reached skill level 15 in Staves
 21981 | Snake:1  | Found Saobiun's Book Shoppe.
 22895 | Snake:1  | Reached XP level 15. HP: 93/100 MP: 24/24
 23715 | Snake:3  | Noticed Norris
 23746 | Snake:2  | Reached skill level 16 in Staves
 24601 | Snake:3  | Paralysed by Norris for 3 turns
 24625 | Snake:3  | Killed Norris
 25134 | Snake:3  | Noticed Azrael
 25157 | Snake:3  | Killed Azrael
 25307 | Snake:3  | Got a twisted sling
 25308 | Snake:3  | Identified the +1,+8 sling "Bypn" {velocity, Dex+3} (You found it on level 3 of the Snake Pit)
 25470 | Snake:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Snake Pit
 25505 | Snake:5  | Reached skill level 15 in Armour
 25526 | Snake:5  | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 25531 | Snake:5  | Reached XP level 16. HP: 54/108 MP: 25/25
 25561 | Snake:5  | Reached skill level 17 in Staves
 26095 | Snake:5  | Noticed a greater naga
 26105 | Snake:5  | Noticed a greater naga
 26109 | Snake:5  | Killed a greater naga
 26120 | Snake:5  | Killed a greater naga
 27430 | Snake:4  | Noticed Vashnia
 28743 | D:10     | Killed an unseen horror
 28978 | D:11     | Reached skill level 18 in Staves
 29502 | D:11     | Found Skoas' Antique Weapon Shop.
 29996 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 30119 | D:12     | Found Haema's Book Boutique.
 30375 | D:12     | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
 30380 | D:12     | Saw a vision of the Swamp and the Snake Pit.
 30421 | D:13     | Found Twuag's Food Shop.
 30616 | D:13     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 30754 | D:13     | Reached XP level 17. HP: 115/115 MP: 26/26
 31230 | D:14     | Noticed Rupert
 31255 | D:14     | Noticed Fannar
 31270 | D:13     | Killed Rupert
 31334 | D:14     | Killed Fannar
 31686 | D:14     | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
 31717 | D:14     | Found Itearieg's Antique Armour Shoppe.
 31720 | D:14     | Bought a faintly glowing plate armour for 812 gold pieces
 31721 | D:14     | Identified the +7 plate armour of Byijauk {Dam+4} (You bought it in a shop on level 14 of the Dungeon)
 32133 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 33292 | D:15     | Reached skill level 19 in Staves
 33468 | D:14     | Got a pair of ancient boots
 33473 | D:14     | Identified the +0 pair of boots "Chicomoc" {rPois rC+} (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)
 33818 | Temple   | Received a gift from Qazlal (rF+)
 34201 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 34238 | D:15     | Noticed Josephine
 34268 | D:15     | Killed Josephine
 34811 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 4 spell: Leda's Liquefaction
 34968 | D:11     | Reached skill level 1 in Earth Magic
 35250 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 36228 | Orc:2    | Found Klipp's Weapon Shop.
 36478 | Orc:2    | Noticed Maurice
 36492 | Orc:2    | Killed Maurice
 37058 | Orc:3    | Noticed Nergalle
 37392 | Orc:3    | Killed Nergalle
 37528 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 37535 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
 37910 | Orc:4    | Found Koabro's Book Shop.
 37911 | Orc:4    | Found Ghiycwa's Armour Shoppe.
 37911 | Orc:4    | Found Inoaq's Distillery.
 37942 | Orc:4    | Found Suism's Armour Boutique.
 37956 | Orc:4    | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 39 gold pieces
 38296 | Orc:4    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 38582 | Orc:4    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 38694 | Orc:3    | Reached XP level 18. HP: 119/122 MP: 26/26
 38960 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 39135 | Elf:1    | Found Ecvin's Jewellery Boutique.
 39530 | Elf:1    | Reached skill level 10 in Earth Magic
 40526 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 40580 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Nessos
 40594 | Swamp:1  | Killed Nessos
 40862 | Swamp:1  | Noticed a tentacled monstrosity
 40877 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Maud
 40896 | Swamp:1  | Killed Maud
 41294 | Swamp:1  | Killed a tentacled monstrosity
 41584 | Swamp:2  | Noticed Roxanne


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Quarterstaff      |   108 |   282 |   438 |     8 |       |       ||   836
       Staff             |       |       |       |  1018 |   760 |    99 ||  1877
       Lajatang          |       |       |       |       |   560 |  2026 ||  2586
 Fire: Shortbow          |       |       |     7 |       |       |       ||     7
Throw: Throwing net      |       |     6 |       |       |       |       ||     6
Invok: Disaster Area     |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
 Abil: Evoke Berserk Rag |       |       |     4 |     1 |     3 |     4 ||    12
       Fly               |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |     5 |     3 |     7 |    12 |    11 ||    38
  Use: Scroll            |       |    11 |     6 |    11 |    25 |    14 ||    67
       Potion            |       |     8 |     1 |     2 |     7 |     3 ||    21
 Stab: Invisible         |       |     2 |     6 |       |     1 |     3 ||    12
       Held in net/web   |       |     2 |       |       |       |       ||     2
       Fleeing           |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1

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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 09:03

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Enhancer staves are not good melee weapons. They're something you use if you already have high elemental magic and evocations and need something to hit popcorn with on the side, not something you train for.

dck

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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 09:20

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Enhancer staves are annoying to use but they're good melee weapons indeed.
Can't compare to a lajatang of pain however
and oh my god I just looked at your spells what the fuck is that.
Why do you have 14 levels of earth with leda's as your only spell?
Why did you train 14 levels of earth if you didn't intend to cast any magic?
Why would you not train those levels in necro which would've actually given you access to both a great melee weapon you owned already and let you use other, good spells?

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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 09:49

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

- Why do you have 14 levels of earth with leda's as your only spell?

I started training earth when I found the staff. leda's was the lowest level earth spell I could find, and it was on 100% fail. I learned it just so I could switch on earth training (for the staff). You need at least one earth spell to train the skill.

I've read elsewhere that the staff of earth combined with high earth skill deals large amounts of damage and is regarded as one of the better melee weapons in the game. Maybe this is not / no longer the case...

Casting in plate is not something I thought was possible, but if I'm going to do it I should go for controlled blink or haste I guess.
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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 10:01

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

rabbashanks wrote:I've read elsewhere that the staff of earth combined with high earth skill deals large amounts of damage and is regarded as one of the better melee weapons in the game. Maybe this is not / no longer the case...

Where'd you read it? (Hint: It was never the case in any version of Crawl I've played)

Casting in plate is not something I thought was possible, but if I'm going to do it I should go for controlled blink or haste I guess.

Here are some spells that are great to cast in plate and easy to get online:
-Apportation
-Summon Butterflies (instant meatshields)
-Blink (maybe)
-Animate Skeleton (definitely, instant permanent undead army)
-Repel Missiles (yes plz)
-Shroud of Golubria (maybe - this is functionally equivalent to having 10 extra max hp due to how the spell works)
-Swiftness
-Regeneration (yes yes YES if you find this one)

Of course haste/invis/cblink etc are amazing, but tough to get to in plate, great if you manage it but you have to not die in the mean time!

Anyway, what you should do is train necro, because
-Lajatang is amazing
-Lajatang of pain is amazing, pain does 1d(necro) unresistable (except by enemy rN+) damage every time you land a hit with such a weapon, that's a lot of damage that adds up fast
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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 10:23

rabbashanks wrote:I've read elsewhere that the staff of earth combined with high earth skill deals large amounts of damage and is regarded as one of the better melee weapons in the game.

Well, there are different opinions about this:

a)
CrawlWiki wrote:A staff of earth with good Evocations and Earth Magic deals high non-resistible damage and is one of the most powerful weapons in the game.

b)
duvessa wrote:um staff of earth is the worst elemental staff for melee

Although I'm not sure I think b) is more likely.

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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 10:31

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

those don't have to be mutually exclusive, although the whole "high non-resistible damage" thing is a complete lie in this case and while |earth is a good weapon it's far from "one of the most powerful weapons in the game"
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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 10:33

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Staff of earth's melee damage is resisted by AC, BTW

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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 15:05

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Patashu wrote:
rabbashanks wrote:I've read elsewhere that the staff of earth combined with high earth skill deals large amounts of damage and is regarded as one of the better melee weapons in the game. Maybe this is not / no longer the case...

Where'd you read it? (Hint: It was never the case in any version of Crawl I've played)
It was sort of true in 0.4 and earlier, when it ignored AC and enhancer staves got more damage from evocations.
Mind you, if you found a source of Crawl advice that's 10 versions behind, you should probably stop taking advice from it.
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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 15:21

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

yea on the wiki u find this statement quite alot (also in 0.13 and 0.14 character guides), (earth staff most powerful blabla)

while i dont have comparison to other weapons that late in the game, i tried fire, air and earth staff with 27 each ele school, 27 staves and 27 evocations.. and just from my gut the earth staff was the worst of the three. air staff was best while the fire staff ofc depended a lot on enemy resist, and was powerful against ice enemies.
air staff best overall except for rElec++ mobs, also reached tornado 9# power with that staff, thats why i used it in pandemonium most of the time
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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 16:14

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

dck wrote:and oh my god I just looked at your spells what the fuck is that.
Why do you have 14 levels of earth with leda's as your only spell?


Much like racially-branded equipment (Elven, Dwarvish, Orcish), it has recently come to light (to more than those that are simply "in the know" of spoiler-info) that lack of effectiveness of enhancer staves in combat is not apparent to the inexperienced. Either the melee combat effects of enhancer staves should be upgraded to work better at high levels of skill, or in-game documentation should dismiss the effectiveness of the combat effects, or they should be (probably developer preference) be removed.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 16:23

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

I haven't used enhancer staves too much, but it is my understanding that they are a very good melee weapon for elemental specialists, since those will likely have the respective magic school trained extensively, and also will enjoy the enhancer part (which is the main thing about those staves). However, it doesn't make sense for a "melee" character to learn a huge amount of elemental magic to use one because said character likely has far better options available. Which is probably the intention behind enhancer melee, or at least it's the one that would make sense to me.

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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 18:25

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Enhancer staves, the short version: These do poor damage with little training and good (not exceptional) damage with *lots* of XP invested in the relevant skills. It's MUCH more expensive (in terms of XP spent) to get good damage out of an enhancer staff, than it is out of any decent two-handed weapon, or even an good one-handed weapon. Therefore, if you're training for a *weapon* you should not train for an enhancer staff. If you are training for high level elemental spells then you may *happen* to have already spent then XP for getting good damage out of an enhancer staff. If that's the case then you should use it, because it will be better than using something that you haven't spent XP on.
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Post Sunday, 20th July 2014, 19:31

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Badwiki strikes again?
To all new players: Ignore all strategy guides posted on the wiki, ask questions in the Advice forum, players with lots of posts normally have the best advice.

crawl.akrasiac.org:8080 <- take this link to play online or spectate.

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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 18:45

Turukano wrote:
rabbashanks wrote:I've read elsewhere that the staff of earth combined with high earth skill deals large amounts of damage and is regarded as one of the better melee weapons in the game.

Well, there are different opinions about this:

a)
CrawlWiki wrote:A staff of earth with good Evocations and Earth Magic deals high non-resistible damage and is one of the most powerful weapons in the game.

b)
duvessa wrote:um staff of earth is the worst elemental staff for melee

Although I'm not sure I think b) is more likely.



I've updated the wiki to read:

  Code:
A staff of earth with good Evocations and Earth Magic deals high AC-checked damage if you have already invested in earth magic. Do not train earth only for the staff, however.


I'd say it's somewhat more accurate, although why we're recommending earth over any other E-staff is debatable. I do like earth for being universal, but I know others prefer staves that don't check AC even if you can't use them effectively on resistant targets.

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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 18:59

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

checkout the 0.14 minotaur and gargoyle staff melee guides, thats where i got that from (and i guess more ppl, as its the only 0.14 guides in there). and the 0.14 gargoyle wiz also says enhancer staves but prefers fire/air.. which i used, and i can say i killed the ICE boss in hell with like 5-8 hits with that staff, 14 staves, 26+fire and ~ 10-15 evo, so its not bad at all :P

another thing i found was inaccurate in wiki, is the scroll of branding article. but it says its 0.13 info in there.
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:25

This topic is interesting as my actual Dg fights with an enhancer staff. Demigods, playing without a god, are more dependent on RNG in their development.

So, starting the game, I planned to

  • pick up an early quarterstaff, train staves and
  • upgrade to a lajatang as soon as I find/acquire one
Well, the second point didn't work until now (1st rune). But as RNG pushed me into necromancy as well as into evocations and gave me a staff of death, this one is my standard weapon now. Quite unusual choice imo, as fighting is still my primary way to kill things.

Let's see if RNG provides a lajatang for extended. :-)
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:28

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:checkout the 0.14 minotaur and gargoyle staff melee guides, thats where i got that from (and i guess more ppl, as its the only 0.14 guides in there). and the 0.14 gargoyle wiz also says enhancer staves but prefers fire/air.. which i used, and i can say i killed the ICE boss in hell with like 5-8 hits with that staff, 14 staves, 26+fire and ~ 10-15 evo, so its not bad at all :P

another thing i found was inaccurate in wiki, is the scroll of branding article. but it says its 0.13 info in there.

The 0.14 Mi and Gr staff melee guides are awful.
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:32

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

i dont question that, but if ure looking for information on this game, dont want to dig through forum and dont know learnDB/IRC u dont have other sources :P the 3 guides i mentioned are the ones a noob will most likely try atm, as the melee naga guide says in the beginning its not for noobs for example:P

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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:33

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Pfff, the chei naga guide is .14 too! Originally .10, but it's been updated, because I'm still crazy enough to love them! Not having constriction on level 1 does hurt, though.

The minotaur guide recommending staves of earth is a bit odd, though. Without that it's basically just saying pick a minotaur and get a lajatang, which seems simple enough.

Putting aside the cost of having to actually train 20 evocations and 20 earth, is this statement true?

  Code:
Although a level 10 evocations and earth magic skill will produce results comparable to a nice lajatang, once they both hit 20 the damage is considerable higher. If you manage to get 27 in both, you’ll get a whopping 50+ of extra damage on your hardest hits.
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:38

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

no i dont think so. maybe its true if u have very high stats or sth? with my gargoyle i tried the earth staff in the end (str and dex ~15), all skills maxed, and still needed like 4 hits for a medium dragon with it, while the air staff could produce 1-2 hits, and fire too if no rF (no slaying, or slaying +5)
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:39

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:i dont question that, but if ure looking for information on this game, dont want to dig through forum and dont know learnDB/IRC u dont have other sources :P the 3 guides i mentioned are the ones a noob will most likely try atm, as the melee naga guide says in the beginning its not for noobs for example:P

Is it really that hard to go to https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html and hit ctrl-f?
I am not saying don't use the wiki, it does provide some useful information, but this is mostly numerical. Most of the strategy given is out-of-date or just bad. I wouldn't use any of the guides, ESPECIALLY as a noob.
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:40

Thanks to tasonir for updating the CrawlWiki instead of being angry about the poor word "BadWiki".
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:44

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

nilsbloodaxe wrote:
Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:i dont question that, but if ure looking for information on this game, dont want to dig through forum and dont know learnDB/IRC u dont have other sources :P the 3 guides i mentioned are the ones a noob will most likely try atm, as the melee naga guide says in the beginning its not for noobs for example:P

Is it really that hard to go to https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html and hit ctrl-f?
I am not saying don't use the wiki, it does provide some useful information, but this is mostly numerical. Most of the strategy given is out-of-date or just bad. I wouldn't use any of the guides, ESPECIALLY as a noob.


relax. im using learnDB as good as i can, but there isnt every info provided either (synergies, special cases).

all i wanted to say is.. ppl will continue to come here and ask, as long as those guides are there and no alternatives. OPs character looks like he was made from the gargoyle melee guide for example
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:48

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:relax. im using learnDB as good as i can, but there isnt every info provided either (synergies, special cases).

This is actually where the wiki can be ok (as long as it is correct and up-to-date), collecting actual information about the game.
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Post Friday, 15th August 2014, 20:35

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

One time I tried getting cBlink online with a Minotaur with Gold Dragon Armour, just for fun mostly, as he had maxed out just about everything useful for a melee warrior and I was curious how much it would take to get there, skill level wise... I did the same with haste. cBlink is always insanely useful, and I think I still wanted to do a Ziggurat to say this character had cleared all areas (not counting infinite areas, and I considered Zig complete when I completed level 27 of one successfully). It made life a lot easier even having it so late, and may've even saved me a few times in the Zig, or wherever it finally got online. Mind you, I had to get my Translocations to 23 or 24 to get it to be reliable! Haste was almost as bad!

Point being, OP, that I imagine as a big bad warrior you are looking out for the biggest, baddest armour you can find, and a GDH to make GDA is basically a guarantee. Maybe you'll find CPA. That'd make things even harder - don't know how much INT your character has, and I will mention for fairness sake that my Minotaur had very little.

I support the idea of smaller utility spells, and one of my absolute favorite spells for any character to learn, ol' vanilla blink. It can get any character out of a corner or surrounded, especially once you get a 'feel' for when to use it and how to sort of 'aim' it using LOS manipulation.

This was a 15 rune game, mind you. No way I'd have gotten it online in a 3 runer.
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Post Friday, 15th August 2014, 20:44

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Patashu wrote:-Regeneration (yes yes YES if you find this one)

Anyway, what you should do is train necro, because
-Lajatang is amazing
-Lajatang of pain is amazing, pain does 1d(necro) unresistable (except by enemy rN+) damage every time you land a hit with such a weapon, that's a lot of damage that adds up fast


I am of the opinion that training a skill just to add extra damage is not a great one, especially considering there are plenty of enemies pain does not work on at all. Perhaps I am wrong, but it just doesn't seem to be the best use of experience. Surely a better staff-type weapon will appear at some point? I bet he finds another lajatang, or could get a ?brand weapon, though I usually wait 'til I have two in case I get something awful.

Also, as much as I have learned and experienced as a crawl player, there are a few things that totally elude me. The love for regeneration is one of them. I'm sure there is a, or are good reason(s) for this, but I am not quite sure what they are. Is it just to recover quickly from battle as to lose as little piety as possible? I've seen more than one post saying it's not really going to have any meaningful effect during battle, so what is the big advantage? I'm very eager to know, as I hate to think this common and low level spell is so useful and I'm missing out.
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Post Friday, 15th August 2014, 21:04

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

you do realize that training necromancy up to 10 is pretty cheap and would be pretty much like adding a +10 enchantment to your weapon against enemies it works on

which is a pretty nice tradeoff
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Post Friday, 15th August 2014, 21:39

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

There is a bunch of situations in Crawl where you do want to regain your HP as fast as possible (without resorting to consumables), and Regeneration is very useful in those situations.
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Post Friday, 15th August 2014, 23:35

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Pretty sure Regen is mostly for keeping piety high and situations where resting is harmful (hells and orbrun)
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Post Friday, 15th August 2014, 23:42

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Pretty sure regen is mostly for keeping your HP as high above zero as possible and has in practice nothing or very little to do with piety.

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Post Saturday, 16th August 2014, 02:07

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

I know there are situations it is useful. I never called it worthless; I've used it to get my health back quickly when I've lost health and I know I have very limited time before a new enemy finds me. However, this is a spell that people seem to think is amazing, a top spell. It's the enthusiasm that's always surprised and puzzled me. Sure, it's useful, but what makes it so great? I must be missing something, I thought. That's why I asked.

I've heard the piety thing before actually, more than once. The idea being that the less turns you take to rest, the more turns you save before you lose piety. Again, just heard it, haven't used it for that.

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Post Saturday, 16th August 2014, 03:24

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Sometimes after you kill some monsters, more monsters come. Regeneration means that you handle them starting with more hit points. It wouldn't be particularly relevant if you could absolutely always rest in a safe spot any time you wanted with no possibility of complications, but sometimes that doesn't work out and it starts working out less as you head towards the end of the game.

I wouldn't call it a 'top spell', except maybe in the post-endgame because monster generation is exactly that obnoxious there, but it is essentially free if you have any charms and/or necromancy investment at all. Spell power is completely irrelevant, so as long as your spell success is acceptable you're getting extra health and reduced risk from wandering monsters for free.

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Post Saturday, 16th August 2014, 05:17

Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

I consider regen a top must-have spell for most races. After lengthy and dangerous sojourn into the abyss , I can tell you from experience that regen saved my ass there. Abyss is one of those places that you don't want to sit around resting, you want to always be moving. Especially if you are wandering Abyss:5 looking for the rune. The 500 turns I spent on abyss:5 before finally finding the rune today were hair-raising. Also, of course, regen is very useful in the hells where you are never given time to rest. Lastly, when you are escaping with the orb, it is not wise to sit around resting when Pan Lords are hunting you down. So is regen a top spell? Absolutely.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 17:01

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Just to add some data to this thread:

I just set up a level 27 wizard-mode character (stats 15/30/15, approximating a caster-centric hybrid) in 0.16 and did some experimentation; all comparisons are damage per round (the lajatang hitting a bit harder but slower, 7 rather than 6 auts):

With all skill levels 15 the lajatang kicks the earth staff's butt, dealing 21.1 to a titan (AC 10) vs only 16.6 from the staff of earth. Don't use an enhancer staff with the relevant magic skill only middling, or at least not if you have a +9 vorpal alternative on hand :).

With all skills level 20:
a +9 lajatang of slicing does 25.7 vs a titan (AC 10), 20.5 vs a golden dragon (AC 15) and 10.9 vs Dispater (AC 40)
a staff of earth does 24.6 vs a titan, 19.0 vs a golden dragon, and 9.1 vs Dispater

... so the staff of earth does 1.1 to 1.8 damage per round less than the latajang. The 1.8 is almost 20% less damage against Dispater... but really both weapons are way too slow to beat down Dispater safely and presumably this type of character will be using some other big guns. (Then again, what *can* beat down Dispater safely? Even a +9 sacred scourge of holy wrath only does 15.2 damage per round.... good thing I've yet to try a 15 rune melee character!).

With all skills level 27, however, really turns things up a notch:
The lajatang will do 29.4 to the titan and 13.5 to Dispater. A nice boost.
But the staff of earch will do 36.8 to the titan and 17.6 to Dispater. That is substantially more damage than the lajatang against all opponents. It even outperforms the sacred scourge vs Dispater, which at this skill level does 17.4 per round.

Add to this that the latajang is 2 handed (thus preventing a shield) and requires switching weapons if you also use an enhancer staff, and the staff of earth looks like a clear winner in the late game for a character who can max out earth magic.... and frankly doesn't look too bad in the midgame either.

Other enhancer staves should look similar, modulo various resistances.

In short, if you are going ALL THE WAY on the relevant skill, bash with the enhancer staff.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 17:43

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

I was wondering why this thread got necro'd, and was pleasantly surprised to see actual data :) I'm somewhat inclined to like staff of earth (vs of fire) for being able to damage resistant mobs, and it's nice to see that the damage does get high eventually. Still probably not worth the investment for non-casters, but at least the potential is there.

If you want to see what can beat down dispater safely, try UC/fighting 27 with blade hands, statue form, or dragon form :) Bonus points if you worship Chei (the strength boost is huge)

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 19:40

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

IMHO lajatang vs staff should be tested vs Dispater this way: you will quaff potion of might (unless you are Mu) and lajatang can become better than the staff.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 02:42

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Sandman25 wrote:IMHO lajatang vs staff should be tested vs Dispater this way: you will quaff potion of might (unless you are Mu) and lajatang can become better than the staff.

It's posts like these that remind me that fsim is more of an art than a science. I would have never thought of that myself. Whenever I fsim something, especially if I post the table/screenshot, I'm always afraid I set up the test wrong somehow...

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 02:57

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

tasonir wrote:It's posts like these that remind me that fsim is more of an art than a science. I would have never thought of that myself. Whenever I fsim something, especially if I post the table/screenshot, I'm always afraid I set up the test wrong somehow...


Well, that was easy after my recent trivia about OoF and might.

Lajatang vs staff of earth, Dispater, the same char (15/30/15, maxed skills)
Without might: 12.5 vs 16.4
With might: 20.2 vs 18.2

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:07

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

I don't understand, why does might affect the lajatang more than the staff of earth, even though the staff is faster? I thought might's main effect was +1d10 damage.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:29

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Earthstaff does damage in two attacks, both check AC separately. The first attack is a 6 base damage +0 weapon. This is also the attack that !might enhances. I imagine it has problems punching through AC even with !might sometimes.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 15:34

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Ah, I see, so sometimes might's bonus is wasted on the staff, because it didn't add enough to get through AC, where the lajatang's base damage has already gotten you through the AC, so the might bonus is almost never wasted. Interesting.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 16:41

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Sar wrote:Earthstaff does damage in two attacks, both check AC separately. The first attack is a 6 base damage +0 weapon. This is also the attack that !might enhances. I imagine it has problems punching through AC even with !might sometimes.

Technically it's a 5 base damage +0 weapon.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 18:25

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Knew I was reviving a relatively old thread but hey, if I googled it I probably wasn't alone :).

I never considered that !might would interact with base vs additional damage this way. Thanks for the insight.

Having not gone code diving, these interactions are the kind of thing that can be quite important to learn... and very much nonobvious. I've ascended several characters, including one 15 runer, and still can't trust my gut (or, it seems, even my venture into wizard mode) to tell me which weapon I should pick up, train up, & swing at things.

Meanwhile, my current DgEE is finding a staff of earth an entirely satisfactory MP-saving club in the Depths with his Earth magic approaching 22 :). Maybe if the character gets far enough I'll experiment with a lajatang & warp weapon, but shatter beckons before then....

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 18:43

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Well the fact that the staff has two damage rolls is conveyed in the message window, but apparently nobody reads that.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 19:09

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

It seemed fairly obvious to me, with the two separate damage sentences, but then again I knew that was how it worked before I saw it, so I can't say how obvious it is to someone who doesn't know. Is that inconsistent with other weapons? Vorpal adds to your main attack's damage rather than hitting separately, and while I think flaming does hit separately, it only checks fire resistance and not AC, right?

I started up my staff of earth minotaur because of this thread, and with ~10 evo/earth, it does decent enough damage. It was definitely a downgrade from my +9 lajatang of flaming, but I don't think you can expect to normally find such a strong randart lajatang so easily. The same probably applies to early earth staves though.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:07

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Sar wrote:Well the fact that the staff has two damage rolls is conveyed in the message window, but apparently nobody who plays tiles reads that.


FTFY

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:28

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Sorry, maybe I was unclear about what I was unclear about :).

The staves & (outdated) weapon damage wiki pages explain that:

- the staff would be d5 (with a million modifiers) + a separate d27
- the lajatang would be d(16) (modifiers) + approx d(9) (and the rest of the modifiers)... and then the vorpal or flaming or whatever % brand (or staff!) damage would be done after that, ignoring AC... except for the earth staff, which, along with the rod of striking, apparently does a (second?) AC reduction/check, per the Armour Class page.

So two AC checks for the staff was expected.

What wasn't obvious (to me) was how the (modified) d5 was so often being zeroed out & thus the might potion would be mostly wasted when used with the staff of earth (against a high AC opponent).

This is complicated, even skipping most of the fun bits about the 7 types of modifiers & bonuses in the weapon damage calculation. This isn't necessarily bad, and in combination with the relentless rebalancing that shaves down advantages means that in many cases you don't particularly care because the weapons are relatively balanced... but still, you can make significant mistakes (or spend a lot of time monkeying around in wizard mode) to determine what what to swing with.

And what to wear (this character isn't using a Lear's hauberk, for example, but it was an interesting decision & I still don't know the right answer. At least, once the deep elf master archer that was wearing it ran out of arrows it was interesting. Until then it was mostly scary :).

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:48

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Well with the hauberk you just remove your auxes and wear it and see if your AC improved significantly, if your EV is okay, can you cast the spells you need, did you lose any key resistances.

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Post Friday, 22nd May 2015, 00:14

Re: Staff of earth vs lajatang of pain

Hauberk isn't bad in itself, but it's frequently worse than a set of normal-run gear. Being able to get a cloak of MR is a lot more valuable than a +5 cloak without MR, in many cases. You'll probably get more defenses from the hauberk, but having no egos hurts it a lot. Also, as a humorous side note, NEVER cast blade hands in the hauberk. It melds the whole thing :)

The rod of striking has been removed, so that's one case you don't have to consider anymore.

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