Going back to find the Temple

[tukkek]

So I would be ready to descend to D:8 but I haven't found the Ecumenical Temple entrance or an altar to my liking. Since I am a bit of a cheat I know the temple isn't generated deeper than this. Do you think that it is worth the effort to go back and find it despite the hunger and other perils?

I kept my character anonymous until here on purpose but I am a Nemelex Vampire Monk so I will probably go back for that piety bonus But anyway I am very interested on what the strategic opinions are for different builds so please humor me on this.

I will probably add interesting ideas to ChaosForge since there is nothing about it there http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... cal_Temple

[crate]

Since I am a bit of a cheat I know the temple isn't generated deeper than this.

ctrl-o also tells you this!

[archaeo]

You should basically always go back and find Temple if you are able to worship a god and you aren't worshipping one yet and none of the overflow altar vaults have what you want or need. Even people who plan on going Jiyva should probably stop off and pick up Fedhas or something.

[Magipi]

Do you think that it is worth the effort to go back and find it despite the hunger and other perils?

What would you do otherwise? Go on and play the game over without a god?

[Sar]

despite the hunger

Hunger doesn't really matter in Crawl except for a couple of exceptions.

other perils

Unless you spend several thousands of turns on every one of those floors, nothing bad should happen.

Anyway, I'd recommend checking all the up and down stairs.

[tukkek]

If it is such a brain-dead issue then it is clearly against the core development philosophy.

[cerebovssquire]

Hunger is necessary in its current state to prevent strategies like scumming the Lair for exp. It also has some tactical impact (you can't spam spells with high hunger cost or Elyvilon invocations during a long fight). I wouldn't call it a brain-dead issue though you could certainly consider it non-ideal in some ways. Simply removing hunger without otherwise modifying the game would definitely not improve it.

[Klown]

^which isn't very abuse-able due to spawnrates/OOD
They just tied too many mechanics around it and don't feel like changing them(Berserk, etc.)

P.S: The hidden temples make no sense. The game is designed around having a god, then they have these silly ones only found by going up a certain set of stairs, etc.

[cerebovssquire]

OOD spawns in Lair aren't very dangerous (and there comes a point where OOD spawns in D aren't very dangerous either, so you could e.g. go back to D:1 and scum it as a high-level character). Assuming you worship a god without piety decay.

[tukkek]

hidden temples make no sense

I guess they do in a way: if the temple was easily spotted (for example: always on D1) and had all gods 100% of the time then the first checkpoint of the game would become brain-dead. For sure this isn't worth removing current temple, temple layouts and overflow altars for.

In this light I would like to rephrase my earlier comment: the issue of going back in search for the temple is not in direct violation of the development philosophy. Even if it is minimally scummy/tedious the major point here is that currently it is a missed opportunity to have some fun mechanic (as defined in the in-game manual philosophy) at this somewhat rare situation.

For example: why not have a guaranteed vault at D:8-10 that will take you to a very dangerous one-room branch that when defeated will take you directly to the temple? This way if you missed the normal temple entrance you have two choices: either go back and fully explore 6 levels which should be relatively easy but tedious and hunger-expensive or venture forth without a god on to deeper more dangerous levels, explore less (only 3 levels) and face a single challenge but then be taken directly to the temple? It would be less hunger-intensive but more risky and will deplete traditional resources. Suddenly it's not a no-brainer now.

[Sar]

It would be less hunger-intensive but more risky and will deplete traditional resources.

Then it would be a no-brainer to ignore it for any player interested in winning.

[tukkek]

Then it would be a no-brainer

This makes no sense. The whole idea is to add another option to escape a no-brainer situation (even if a minor one). I did not say it would fully deplete traditional resources.

I for one would gladly prefer a more intense second entrance to the temple than going back and try to find the first one. But it would make me stop and think: if I was really low on resources or had a lot of food I might then choose to go back and explore all earlier levels.

Of course if you had already found the first entrance you would then ignore the second one but this is also true of altars: if you are already religious you will ignore most altars you find throughout the game.

[KoboldLord]

A whole stairwell doesn't really constitute 'hidden' to me. It's pretty obvious when you've only explored two stairwells on a level, and I can't think of any way to prevent the player from using a section of the level disconnected from the Temple without preventing multi-section levels entirely at that depth.

[Psiweapon]

Triple visitation solves the hidden temple problem, also: it's on the level with two down staircases, and it's accessed from below. Ctrl+x , < , [ .

I think it's pretty simple, the only things that can really deny entry are failure at exploration, uniques, nasties, and warbands. Which, by the way, can also deny entry to a regular temple or even a temple with an obvious entry vault.

[tukkek]

Triple visitation

Crawl design is all about being straight-forward. Triple-entering each level makes no in-game sense and is pretty boring and mechanical if you ask me. The fact that I did not find the Temple in this particular run goes to show I do not consider it fun at all.

[KoboldLord]

Checking where the stairwells go means you know where you'll end up if you have to retreat through there, and it means that escape route will be safe. Exploring is an extremely strange thing to take a stand against.

[tukkek]

Exploration is probably my favorite aspect of DCSS I used to play a Mummy and I would have levels fully explored before advancing - all staircases included. It was indeed a very slow, patient, coldly calculating build.

Playing a Vampire now the blood-lust keeps me going, metaphorically: I am usually at level 6 in twenty minutes of play or so. The only strange thing here is to assume each build or player will want to play just like you. Go ahead and triple enter all levels if you want to but you cannot deny it is a bit boring and mechanical and the core design rules state clearly this is to avoided.

[Hopeless]

Exploration is probably my favorite aspect of DCSS I used to play a Mummy and I would have levels fully explored before advancing - all staircases included. It was indeed a very slow, patient, coldly calculating build.

Playing a Vampire now the blood-lust keeps me going, metaphorically: I am usually at level 6 in twenty minutes of play or so. The only strange thing here is to assume each build or player will want to play just like you. Go ahead and triple enter all levels if you want to but you cannot deny it is a bit boring and mechanical and the core design rules state clearly this is to avoided.

But that isn't what was said (or assumed) here.

It was just stated that exploration is an odd thing to rail against as if it were anti-crawl...which was the implication of your earlier posts added together. Not to say your point about fun and diversity of play styles is wrong in any sense.

Clearly some like playing NaXX of Chei, while some consider that to be antithetical to their game, while others still feel that attacking Uniques is a dumb thing to do, and others go out of their way to count coup. Some insist on playing Mutation Roulette with no safety net while others consider !Muts to be anathema. Namelex is a popular god for some and an abomination to others. Xom is a fun god to some and a completely insane choice to others. And so on. (I made a somewhat more lengthy post on this in another thread.)

From a strategic point of view, boring/tedious isn't a bad thing. Predictable isn't a bad thing either if you want to win. OTOH the way the devs choose to make the game less tedious is by making the game harder via the RNG (and thus less predictable). So maybe that is what you mean by being against the design philosophy? Because having your exits all clearly marked and explored makes things much less interesting from the point of view of living in dangerous times.

[tukkek]

I see what you mean about going back to find the Temple being exploration. You are correct but it also is a bit of backtracking which is something usually considered bad form in games unless done right like in earlier Resident Evil games. DCSS might be doing it right too. I guess it will have to happen to me a few more times before I decide I would like a link to the related post you mentioned.

What I meant about being against the philosophy was that it is currently a no-brainer (check the in-game docs).

[archaeo]

Unless I'm grossly mistaken, doesn't Temple a) always spawn with a vault and b) always spawn in a place that's visible now? I can't think of a Temple entrance that uses the stairwell that doesn't have glass walls or something to show you. Basically, as long as you're fully exploring levels (which is something you should be doing anyway if you're not playing for high score and there's nothing on the level you have to run from), you should always be able to find Temple.

Crawl has nothing against backtracking; indeed, I think it's an expected part of the game. Sort of like other games with that kind of "bad form" like, you know, Super Metroid, which everybody agrees is just a disaster of a game.

[tukkek]

as long as you're fully exploring levels (which is something you should be doing anyway

It seems you have missed the comments about different play-styles above and thus failed to comment on the issue at hand.

I disagree that backtracking at large is expected in Crawl. Exceptions: the Orb run (of course) and stashes (but I don't see them as something the game expects you to do). Thanks for the example of backtracking done right but I already gave one so it was uncalled for with the sarcasm.

[Sar]

You are not supposed to do branches in the order of appearance - in fact, doing so is borderline suicidal. How's that for backtracking?

[sage]

^which isn't very abuse-able due to spawnrates/OOD
P.S: The hidden temples make no sense. The game is designed around having a god, then they have these silly ones only found by going up a certain set of stairs, etc.

I made nicolae_overflow_hidden_temple not-hidden. Please let me know if there are others I missed.

[tukkek]

You are not supposed to do branches in the order of appearance

Saw this coming from a mile away. New branches aren't major backtracking: you auto-travel there, perhaps one or two encounters and then it's a whole new world.

Exploring 6 semi-explored levels you are already over-leveled for is major backtracking. Going back for a stash kind of is too since it is so mechanical and lack much in-game purpose - plus it's a round-trip.

[and into]

I just go up new stair cases when I see them, it is as easy as hitting < then >. It isn't any more mechanical than going down staircases or through doors or anything else, and it is a good idea for a few reasons. Crawl does involve some backtracking (shops are the biggest thing not yet mentioned), but has lots of really nice features to streamline the boring bits (CTRL+F, CTRL+O, CTRL+G, waypoints, macros, autotravel, etc.) so it has never been a bother.

[Sar]

Exploring 6 semi-explored levels you are already over-leveled for is major backtracking

So you don't explore levels and then you complain you missed something? Would you suggest Temple entrance be announced like timed portals are?

[Lasty]

Sar, tukkek is roleplaying a vampire who is too bloodthirsty to explore, but that doesn't mean that they should be penalized by missing important things.

Tukkek, if you intentionally choose to skip content, you shouldn't be surprised if you're forced to "backtrack" when the content you skip turns out to be something you wanted.

[tukkek]

You're right Lasty: I can fully explore or not and each option will have it's own pros and cons - for me this is what the DCSS philosophy is all about. But on the other hand you can't expect players to fully explore every bit of every level of every branch so let's use the term 'missed content' cautiously. Rune-doors for one can be safely missed.

Another idea: have a special hatch (one-use only) at D:8 or below that takes you to the temple level. Flavor text: "You see here a sign where an arrow is drawn. Below it is inscribed: THIS WAY TO THE TEMPLE"

[Lasty]

First, shafts usually take you down, rather than up. Second, what's to stop you from missing that shaft just as easily as the temple stairs themselves?

The game already provides players with a lot of outside-the-temple altars, in addition to the temple's altar smorgasbord. If you genuinely believe that players who intentionally skip past all that content should still get a god, it would be more efficient to propose that all players get given [a random god | the god of their choice] upon entering D:10. I mean, that will never be implemented, but it more directly addresses the issue you seem to be trying to fix.

Alternately, you could use wizard mode to give yourself a god when you feel that it's appropriate to do so.

[tukkek]

My question is less practical and more theoretical. In practice I can only remember this issue happening to me once in many years. Theoretically it is about the issue of a no-brainer: it seems that currently for every possible character if you reach D:8 without a god then you must go back for the temple.

The second entrance is much harder to miss because you have to explore only 1 level instead of 6 levels you are overpowered for. More importantly: it's very presence means you have a choice instead of needing to backtrack.

[KoboldLord]

Your plight has garnered approximately zero sympathy from everybody who has heard about your issue. Maybe you should give up? Your problem is a non-problem, and odds are if you walked away right now it would never bother you again. Even if it is a genuine problem that actually affects players, at this point you're better off waiting for someone else to complain about the issue at a future point and then posting in support of that person.

Look, it's okay. I know we're on the internet, and everybody hates losing here. But you can walk away, and everybody will have forgotten about the whole thread in less than a week.

[tukkek]

KoboldLord: I happen to see things very differently from you.

On a semi-related note if I was actually looking to change something I would have taken this to IRC or coded a solution myself - as I am happy to say a few patches I've written are part of the game! I am just here for chatting

[and into]

Well to give another response: Part of the whole point about there being the Temple is that finding it is important. It is this one key staircase you gotta find early on (unless you got lucky with an altar vault even earlier), which means that skipping part of a level due to a tough unique early on is a bit of a risk, and it is also a big deal if some tough enemies happened to spawn near the staircase to the Temple. That can be really frustrating if you were 100% dead-set on only worshiping one particular god, but short of that, there are several different ways of handling that kind of situation, and overall I think it is good that sometimes you are pressured as a player by having to deal with that and adapting, even if it means sometimes you can't get exactly what you wanted/expected.

Giving a second entrance to the Temple (in effect) seems to completely detract from the point of having the Temple in the first place; at that point, you might as well remove it, which isn't going to happen.

(Bit of a tangent but you might be interested in the discussion in this thread, from a while back: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10630)

In any case, to give the advice you asked for: Yes, if you haven't found a reasonable god choice for your character, or if there are only certain gods you want to worship and haven't found their altars yet, then you should go back and fully explore areas that you skipped. Doing otherwise is very silly.

"But hey, doesn't this mean finding the Temple is a no-brainer, I thought Crawl design is all about avoiding no-brainers!" Well, that is really an abuse of the term "no-brainer."

Worshiping a god (unless you are a demigod) is a given if you are interested in winning the game; the point is that which god you worship provides some interesting strategic decisions (at least, ideally it does). Making sure that you find the Temple is a "no-brainer" in the same way that picking up and using good items you find is a "no-brainer." You can describe just about any feature with a sufficient level of abstraction and say "doing this is a no-brainer"; it doesn't make your argument good, it just means that you are able to hang a buzzword on a bad argument.

[Psiweapon]

[massive snip]You can describe just about any feature with a sufficient level of abstraction and say "doing this is a no-brainer"; it doesn't make your argument good, it just means that you are able to hang a buzzword on a bad argument.

off topic:

No-brainer, tedium, interest, meaningful choice, optimal player, fun ... The amount of buzzword flinging in these forums is staggering (I myself am guilty of it too! )

[proposal]:Change [mechanic of the game] to [what I like] because of [buzzword]

[Sprucery]

[proposal]:Change [mechanic of the game] to [what I like] because of [buzzword]

Change eating to having sex because of fun. Yes, it works! Let's incorporate incubi and succubi to Crawl.

[Sar]

  Code:

You need to fuck somebody NOW!

[tukkek]

and into: I disagree that currently missing the temple is very frustrating - it is just a missed opportunity for a new mechanic. The idea of having a second entrance being equal to not having a temple is nonsensical: you could say the same for altars. I have read that thread before and the development wiki page on it but thanks anyway

I never said finding the Temple is a no-brainer I said going back for it is (as you stated). Using good items is everything but a no-brainer - if you use your wand of draining at kobolds it will not be very useful at all!

[tukkek]

  Code:

You need to fuck somebody NOW!

You are now very lusty.

You are almost virgin!

[cerebovssquire]

and after a long long period of sexual frustration, the character falls into a kind of apathy and the status no longer confers any negative effects besides a subconscious hatred towards life in general the character themself doesn't know the root of

[Kaeoschassis]

[proposal]:Change [mechanic of the game] to [what I like] because of [buzzword]

Someone should write a bot for this or something...