Best Bolt?

Monday, 16th June 2014, 19:19 by PostmodernBrony

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0-2-gd2dacb9 (tiles) character file. Gilda the Conjurer (Tengu Conjurer) Turns: 10288, Time: 01:00:47 HP 34/50 AC 5 Str 8 XL: 10 Next: 72% MP 29/29 EV 16 Int 22 God: Vehumet [*****.] Gold 519 SH 0 Dex 15 Spells: 7 memorised, 10 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis + w - 2 rotting chunks of sheep flesh rCold . . . Clarity . n - +2 robe rNeg . . . Conserve . (no shield) rPois . rCorr . (helmet restricted) rElec . rRot . (no cloak) SustAb . . Spirit . i - +0 pair of gloves rMut + Warding . (boots unavailable) Saprov . . . Stasis . p - amulet of resist mutation MR ..... c - ring of see invisible u - +3 ring of intelligence @: not resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy A: able to fly, beak, talons 3 a: Fly, Renounce Religion You are on level 7 of the Dungeon. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is extremely pleased with you. You are not hungry. You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 9 of its levels. You have also visited: Sewer. You have collected 519 gold pieces. Inventory: Armour i - a +0 pair of gloves (worn) n - a +2 robe (worn) Magical devices m - a wand of slowing (22) q - a wand of frost {zapped: 1} y - a wand of paralysis {zapped: 1} B - a wand of flame {zapped: 1} F - a wand of magic darts (6) Comestibles b - 3 bread rations h - 4 apples o - a meat ration t - 4 pears w - 2 rotting chunks of sheep flesh (in hand) z - an orange A - a lemon E - a rotting chunk of yak flesh I - 5 rotting chunks of ogre flesh K - 5 chunks of yak flesh Scrolls a - 3 scrolls of remove curse d - 4 scrolls of identify e - a scroll of magic mapping g - 4 scrolls of teleportation j - a scroll of enchant weapon II Jewellery c - a ring of see invisible (right hand) p - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck) u - a +3 ring of intelligence (left hand) H - an uncursed ring of fire L - an uncursed ring of protection from fire Potions f - 2 potions of agility k - a potion of flight l - 3 potions of might s - 2 potions of berserk rage v - a potion of heal wounds C - 2 potions of curing G - a potion of brilliance Books r - a book of Alchemy Spells Type Level Lethal Infusion Charms/Necromancy 2 *Sublimation of Blood Necromancy 2 Condensation Shield Ice 4 Petrify Transmutation/Earth 4 Ignite Poison Fire/Transmutation 5 x - a book of Power Spells Type Level Fulminant Prism Conjuration/Hexes 4 *Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Conjuration 4 Venom Bolt Conjuration/Poison 5 Bolt of Magma Conjuration/Fire/Earth 5 Iron Shot Conjuration/Earth 6 Orb of Destruction Conjuration 7 Magical staves D - an uncursed staff of poison Skills: + Level 6.8 Dodging - Level 2.0 Stealth + Level 9.5 Spellcasting + Level 12.7 Conjurations + Level 1.2 Charms + Level 4.6 Necromancy You have 10 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Magic Dart Conj #### 1% 1 None b - Searing Ray Conj ###### 1% 2 None c - Iskenderun's Mystic Conj ######.. 1% 4 ##..... d - Sublimation of Blood Necr ####...... 1% 2 None e - Throw Flame Conj/Fire #####. 1% 2 None f - Throw Frost Conj/Ice #####. 1% 2 None g - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm #####... 3% 5 ####... Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (8/15) Temple (1/1) D:4 Lair (0/8) D:8 Altars: Cheibriados Dithmenos Elyvilon Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Okawaru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Zin The Shining One Shops: D:4 ( Annotations: D:6 exclusion: oklob plant Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You can fly. You have a beak for a mouth. You have claws for feet. Message History You see here a yak skeleton. You see here 2 scrolls of immolation. Casting: Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. The chunk of flesh you are holding crumbles to dust. A flood of magical energy pours into your mind! You are now empty-handed. w - 4 rotting chunks of sheep flesh (in hand) Casting: Sublimation of Blood Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. The chunk of flesh you are holding crumbles to dust. A flood of magical energy pours into your mind! You smell something rotten. (slot I) Casting: Sublimation of Blood Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. The chunk of flesh you are holding crumbles to dust. A flood of magical energy pours into your mind! You start resting. The smell of rotting flesh makes you sick. (slot E) Okay, then. #.#####(#.....# ........(.....# ....###.#[....# ....# #.#.....# ....###.#.....# ........#.....# ..#######[....# ..# #...%.# ..# #...?>## ..# #...@..# ..#######......# .<.............# .......####.#### ............# ............# ............# ........[...# ............# There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures Pikel (D:7) The ghost of Iron Will the Covered, an experienced MiFi (D:5) A hippogriff (D:8) 5 yaks Edmund (D:5) A water moccasin (D:8) 2 porcupines (D:8) 2 slaves (D:7) 3 orc warriors A phantom (D:6) 3 ice beasts A sky beast (D:7) 4 ogres A centaur (D:5) A big kobold (D:7) A crocodile (D:8) 2 giant slugs (D:8) 5 giant frogs 2 scorpions 3 wights (D:8) A goliath beetle (D:5) 5 crimson imps 4 jellies A giant frog zombie (D:8) 6 hounds An iguana (D:4) 4 orc priests A big fish (Sewer) 2 orc wizards 3 worker ants An ogre zombie (D:7) 10 sheep (D:8) A hound zombie (D:5) 13 adders 3 green rats (D:8) 3 shadow imps (D:8) 8 worms An adder skeleton (D:7) An adder zombie (D:6) An iguana skeleton (D:4) 2 giant eyeballs 7 giant geckos 17 oozes 25 orcs 4 ball pythons 20 bats 8 giant cockroaches 8 goblins 8 hobgoblins 19 jackals 21 kobolds 2 giant gecko skeletons 8 giant newts A hobgoblin zombie (D:6) A kobold skeleton (D:6) 6 quokkas A quokka skeleton (D:4) 19 rats A rat skeleton (D:5) A rat zombie (D:5) 290 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) 4 fungi (D:6) 4 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 294 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Gilda, the Tengu Conjurer, began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 3/3 308 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 1/5 346 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Searing Ray 743 | D:1 | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations 967 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 15/19 MP: 2/7 1636 | D:2 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha. 1862 | D:2 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 17/24 MP: 0/9 2429 | D:3 | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations 2485 | D:3 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. 2495 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 3/13 2608 | D:3 | Found a glowing drain. 2625 | Sewer | Entered a sewer 2719 | Sewer | Learned a level 4 spell: Iskenderun's Mystic Blast 2997 | Sewer | Noticed Bulge Bicep's ghost (experienced TrBe) 3848 | D:3 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 4/15 4120 | D:4 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 4285 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple 4325 | Temple | Became a worshipper of Vehumet 4816 | D:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations 4889 | D:4 | Found Brasici's Weapon Boutique. 5570 | D:4 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 5584 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 12/18 5701 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 5733 | D:5 | Noticed Edmund 5740 | D:5 | Killed Edmund 5746 | D:5 | Acquired Vehumet's first power 5746 | D:5 | Offered knowledge of Flame Tongue by Vehumet. 5864 | D:5 | Noticed Iron Will's ghost (experienced MiFi) 5871 | D:5 | Killed Iron Will's ghost 5871 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 5871 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting 5871 | D:5 | Reached skill level 9 in Conjurations 5871 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 2/22 6014 | D:5 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos. 6344 | D:5 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns 6351 | D:5 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns 6672 | D:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations 6772 | D:5 | Learned a level 2 spell: Sublimation of Blood 6842 | D:5 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 6999 | D:5 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin. 7013 | D:5 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 7135 | D:6 | Offered knowledge of Throw Flame by Vehumet. 7240 | D:6 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 14/24 7765 | D:6 | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Flame 7895 | D:6 | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations 7918 | D:6 | Noticed an oklob plant 7941 | D:6 | Offered knowledge of Throw Frost by Vehumet. 7989 | D:6 | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy 8028 | D:6 | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Frost 8614 | D:7 | Acquired Vehumet's second power 8740 | D:7 | Learned a level 5 spell: Iskenderun's Battlesphere 8810 | D:7 | Noticed Pikel 8816 | D:7 | Killed Pikel 8816 | D:7 | Offered knowledge of Inner Flame by Vehumet. 8816 | D:7 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 4/28 9205 | D:7 | Paralysed by a potion of paralysis for 2 turns 9314 | D:8 | Acquired Vehumet's third power 9428 | D:8 | Reached skill level 12 in Conjurations 9509 | D:8 | Offered knowledge of Olgreb's Toxic Radiance by Vehumet. 9562 | D:8 | Found a staircase to the Lair. 10042 | D:8 | Reached skill level 1 in Charms 10188 | D:7 | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Cold by Vehumet. Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Unarmed | 7 | 13 | | || 20 Whip | | | 1 | || 1 Cast: Magic Dart | 56 | 152 | 153 | 102 || 463 Searing Ray | 5 | 20 | 42 | 7 || 74 Iskenderun's Myst | | 6 | 33 | 25 || 64 Sublimation of Bl | | | 18 | 37 || 55 Iskenderun's Batt | | | 2 | 18 || 20 Abil: Fly | | 3 | | || 3 Evoke: Wand | | 2 | 5 | || 7 Use: Scroll | | 17 | 2 | 3 || 22 Potion | | 14 | 2 | 3 || 19

Assuming the above, which damaging spell should i learn next - Bolt of Ice, Magma Bolt, Venom Bolt, Bolt of Magma, Iron Shot or Orb of Destruction? I'd be willing to learn more than one, but i only have so many spell slots, so i want to make sure the first one i pick up is the best possibly choice, in case i don't run into a scroll of amnesia and free up some space by unlearning searing ray.

Monday, 16th June 2014, 19:26 by and into

I wouldn't have picked up throw flame/frost.

You can forget a spell without using ?amnesia by destroying a spell book that contains the spell you want to unlearn... You (r)ead it in your inventory, select the spell you want to forget, and hit F. You'll get a prompt, answer Y if you are cool with losing the book and forgetting the spell.

Personally I'd memorize bolt of cold and dazzling spray, get 3 or 4 cheap levels in hexes. Then I'd train dodging only for a while.

You got a lot of fire power for a level 10 character, so I'd be worrying about and prioritizing defenses at the moment.

Monday, 16th June 2014, 20:48 by TheDefiniteArticle

IMB, Sublimation, and Battlesphere are the only spells in that dump that are worth keeping, forget the rest when you get the chance, either with scrolls or books.

All the Bolts can be considered more or less the same, just learn whichever one corresponds to the element you are training, or pick at random if you train no element. Magma is a bit worse than the rest due to having less range and 3 schools (which makes it harder to raise spellpower), but it is still a good choice.

Iron Shot/Orb of Destruction are both great spells to think about in the long term, having high irresistible damage.

IMB and Battlesphere will carry you through Lair and beyond, so I'm going to second the defensive training recommendation. +3 Conj is all fun and games until you get one-shotted by a large rock.

Monday, 16th June 2014, 21:00 by Hurkyl

Magic Dart remains good for triggering battlesphere charges. Searing Ray (+ Battlesphere) remains the most MP-efficient choice for protracted battles against things you can afford to take time with. I would not forget those yet.

Monday, 16th June 2014, 22:09 by PostmodernBrony

picked up throw flame/frost so that i could train into either of those spells when necessary; fire particularly looked neat because my aptitude (+1) is reasonable, i could learn ignite poison to deal with the poison branch/hydras later, and fire storm is apparently de facto the best blast in the game.

want to keep magic dart for the battlesphere. Searing Ray i could duck, but i realize it's MP-efficiant and if you guys think it's a good idea to keep it, i will. don't want to learn dazzling spray because in situations where i could deal AoE damage, IMB seems like a strictly better option - that and i consider hexes to be the shittiest spell school in the game, and am loath to train it.

Thanks for the tip on forgetting spells - i didn't know that gem. I'll save up for iron shot and OOD, and possibly consider picking up frost bolt.

Tuesday, 17th June 2014, 00:13 by KoboldLord

I don't know why Iron Shot is on your list. It is not a bolt spell; it deals its damage to only the one target. It's also an earth spell, which you have a -3 aptitude with. You could make it work since it's a good spell, but you might as well just use Battlesphere with the spells you already have, or Poison Arrow if that turns up.

Orb of Destruction is also not a bolt spell. It is fun, though, and you should try it. But put that off for a long time, because it won't be usable or practical for a while and your defenses are more urgent. Orb of Destruction has a little bit of a delay between when you cast it and when the orb finally explodes on or near your target, and in that time your opponent will be able to shoot at you.

Magma and Venom are passable bolts. I choose them mostly when they are my only viable choice.

Bolt of Cold is a good bolt spell, but it will only ever have reasonable spell power if you train ice magic. Tengu are okay with ice magic, but if you commit there will be a lot of sunk costs if you want to consider changing later.

You should not worry about Fire Storm. It is awesome but impractical; it deals lots of damage but by the time you have accumulated enough xp to train the skills involved high enough to make it usable, the game will usually be over.

Tuesday, 17th June 2014, 04:16 by Hurkyl

KoboldLord wrote:Magma and Venom are passable bolts. I choose them mostly when they are my only viable choice.

Magma bolt is actually excellent if you happen to be training both Fire and Earth; I think I'd even prefer it over Bolt of Fire in that case. But if you're not doing that, it's not as good.

Tuesday, 17th June 2014, 05:39 by duvessa

Hurkyl wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Magma and Venom are passable bolts. I choose them mostly when they are my only viable choice.

Magma bolt is actually excellent if you happen to be training both Fire and Earth; I think I'd even prefer it over Bolt of Fire in that case.

Why would you ever, ever be doing that?

Tuesday, 17th June 2014, 06:02 by Patashu

duvessa wrote:
Hurkyl wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Magma and Venom are passable bolts. I choose them mostly when they are my only viable choice.

Magma bolt is actually excellent if you happen to be training both Fire and Earth; I think I'd even prefer it over Bolt of Fire in that case.
Why would you ever, ever be doing that?

He got shatter for vaults and fire storm for slime where it won't work, duh.

Tuesday, 17th June 2014, 06:14 by and into

Personally even if I'm training both fire and earth, I'd usually go with bolt of fire over bolt of magma. The latter is more prevalent/common, but assuming both are available, I'll take the bolt that has good range.

Tuesday, 17th June 2014, 07:45 by Hurkyl

duvessa wrote:
Hurkyl wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Magma and Venom are passable bolts. I choose them mostly when they are my only viable choice.

Magma bolt is actually excellent if you happen to be training both Fire and Earth; I think I'd even prefer it over Bolt of Fire in that case.
Why would you ever, ever be doing that?

Because my FE has access to Stoneskin or Iron Shot, or any number of other obvious scenarios.

Tuesday, 17th June 2014, 21:59 by SchwaWarrior

When I read the thread title I thought this would be a discussion thread of which is the best bolt spell in the game, and I was prepared to be snarky and answer "inaccuracy". :p But I guess I can be constructive instead.

Iron Shot and OOD have fantastic synergy, but then again, you are a Tengu. Tengus don't like earth spells very much. v.v Now that doesn't mean Iron Shot isn't viable, not at all! Just, if you want to play more to your strengths, you'd be better off either picking Bolt of Fire, and then branching into other fire magics, or either Bolt of Ice or Throw Icicle (Bolt has the advantage of hitting multiple enemies in a row, but Icicle deals physical damage and can harm rC+ enemies-- you'd pick whichever is your personal style, or consider which branches you'll be visiting soon and pick whichever you think has the best bang/buck ratio to you) and then branch into Ice Magic later. OR, you could pick one or the other and then only SLIGHTLY branch into Fire or Ice and try to get into Air Magic later; if you do that you could get away with just sticking with Mystic Blast like someone said, though I personally hate that spell and don't find it so useful. Some do. It's up to you.

Basically a lot of this just comes down to what's comfortable to you. You have many options that are viable, and to an extent you can choose how much you want to commit to one style vs. wait until later and see what comes up. Tengus are extremely good at being versatile like that.

I would recommend against Magma as a Tengu though; with three schools to have to train up, Earth being one of them which you have a nasty anti-aptitude for, 9 times out of 10 you're better off with Bolt of Fire as this kind of character.

If you want my insight on the Fire vs Ice debate, well it's clear that the Fire school is pure offense through and through, whereas the Ice school leans much more towards defense and technical play than Fire. The Ice school can create extra armour and even an extra shield, can incapacitate enemies with Metabolic Englaciation, etc. and while the almighty Glaciate is less powerful than Firestorm, its flash-freezing status effect stops the survivors from effectively retaliating. The Fire School is all about ripping apart entire armies; besides the obvious, ultimate attack which is Firestorm, you have Fireball as well-- both of these spells never miss and can hit lots of enemies repeatedly-- Sticky Flame to counter anything that can go invisible and is some good damage if you're okay with getting up close and personal, and for tacticians out there, Inner Flame (whether with or without summons/zombies to use as disposable suicide bombers) is capable of turning a gi-normous 50+ army into an Independence Day sunday special that would bring a tear to the eyes of the Mythbusters themselves.

IMO, Tengus are better at utilizing Fire magic than Ice, and staying true to the glass cannons they're born as. But I have seen, and played, some VERY good Ice Tengus. Again I'd say it's about your own style!

I'd also say that Fire has better syngergy with Air than Ice, though Ice has some good synergy with Necromancy of all things. The zombies and ghosties you raise are usually very resistant to spells like Freezing Cloud, you know.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 01:42 by zardo

duvessa wrote:
Hurkyl wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Magma and Venom are passable bolts. I choose them mostly when they are my only viable choice.

Magma bolt is actually excellent if you happen to be training both Fire and Earth; I think I'd even prefer it over Bolt of Fire in that case.
Why would you ever, ever be doing that?

Because you started FE but Vehumet gave you earth spells? This is a really surprising comment to me because I very often end up with two main offensive schools with a conjurer without seeming to fall particularly short on XP or anything. Unless you mean aiming to get them both really high or like, literally training "Fire Magic" and "Earth Magic" at the same time I guess isn't something you'd do much but I don't think that's what he meant.

But yeah BoF has better range.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 01:57 by TheDefiniteArticle

Without going into the wider topic of defending duvessa's statement, if you are training any significant amount of Fire skill, Bolt of Fire is better than Magma. Basically Earth skill has to be much higher than Fire skill for Magma to come out on top.

But again, all the Bolts are awesome, worrying about which one is "best" is frankly a waste of time.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 03:20 by mikee

Probably it would have been more thought provoking to word it, 'why should you ever, ever, be doing that'? That might have also avoided the predictable reaction of someone angrily going, Why, I do that! Because XYZ.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 04:23 by and into

PostmodernBrony wrote:picked up throw flame/frost so that i could train into either of those spells when necessary; fire particularly looked neat because my aptitude (+1) is reasonable, i could learn ignite poison to deal with the poison branch/hydras later, and fire storm is apparently de facto the best blast in the game.

want to keep magic dart for the battlesphere. Searing Ray i could duck, but i realize it's MP-efficiant and if you guys think it's a good idea to keep it, i will. don't want to learn dazzling spray because in situations where i could deal AoE damage, IMB seems like a strictly better option - that and i consider hexes to be the shittiest spell school in the game, and am loath to train it.

Thanks for the tip on forgetting spells - i didn't know that gem. I'll save up for iron shot and OOD, and possibly consider picking up frost bolt.

Oops, missed this post earlier.

About the tip—de rien. Lots of folks don't realize that it is possible to destroy spell books to forget spells. (Sif hates this and you get in trouble if you do it while worshiping her, but she has an ability that lets you forget spells, anyway, so it is not an issue.)

You are mistaken about dazzling spray (and hexes in general), at least in terms of usefulness/power, but if you don't like using them or don't find them fun, you can definitely skip dazzling spray on this character. (A lot of people don't like the interface/targeting of d. spray; even though I like the spell I see how that is a legitimate complaint, and regardless, if you don't like using it, don't bother with it.)

Of your current listed options, bolt of cold seemed like best spell to get next, even though you have enough firepower already, and I would train up a good amount of dodging before thinking about putting experience into ice. The difference between 0 and +1 is not a big deal, and on a Tengu, if you want to get a level 9 spell, really the most reasonable choice is Tornado, not fire storm (nor glaciate/ice storm, not sure which it is in 0.14). In any case, which (if any) level 9 spell you are going to get shouldn't be directing your choices now.

Ignite poison is not a very good spell to be honest, and certainly is not a good spell for taking out hydras. Battlesphere + IMB is sufficient there, really.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 04:30 by SchwaWarrior

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Without going into the wider topic of defending duvessa's statement, if you are training any significant amount of Fire skill, Bolt of Fire is better than Magma. Basically Earth skill has to be much higher than Fire skill for Magma to come out on top.

This makes total sense. I almost never play Earth Mages but I could imagine they benefit from Bolt of Magma as a possible offensive attack, for the sake of versatility. This almost makes me want to play one... almost, heheh

(I only ever play High Elves and Demonspawn; High Elves don't care much for earth magic, and as a Demonspawn I'd only go Earth school if my mutation set turned up juuust right.)

TheDefiantAardvark wrote:But again, all the Bolts are awesome, worrying about which one is "best" is frankly a waste of time.

Innacuracy is best.

NOPE I win.

NOPE

NOPE

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 07:59 by zardo

mikee wrote:Probably it would have been more thought provoking to word it, 'why should you ever, ever, be doing that'? That might have also avoided the predictable reaction of someone angrily going, Why, I do that! Because XYZ.

I'm not angrily going anything I genuinely would like to know what he's getting at.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 09:27 by mikee

It's inefficient to train multiple elemental schools, particularly to use conjurations from them, and this holds true even for like a deep elf up until the point where you have so much xp that it doesn't matter what you do (i.e., through extended and zigs). This is not to say that you can't win while doing it or you might not find it fun or whatever, but if you're training skills that way you're most likely undervaluing the benefits of dodging, fighting, and a weapon skill. One of the main exceptions is something like sticky flame, which doesn't deal damage dependent on its power (and is somewhat ironic as being a fire elementalist is what both people arguing for that practice have brought up, and sticky flame is the most important spell in that book).

Sometimes people say that their elementalist has problems dealing with monsters resistant to their element, so they learned iron shot. But again, there are so many more xp efficient ways to kill those monsters. Even if you dislike melee combat, you could use pure conjurations/battlesphere since you have those skills already, or something that isn't dependent on power for its damage, such as certain summoning spells.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 13:31 by Jeremiah

The main reason I'd learn Iron Shot on a non-earth specialist is orbs of fire (also electric golems) - IMB/airstrike don't do enough damage to kill them quickly enough, OOD is good but is not always useable depending on dungeon layout, summons are too weak unless I'm specialising in summoning, and as a primarily spellcasting character I'm not sure meleeing them would be a good idea.

I haven't done any calculations, but I would guess that it's more efficient in terms of XP to get a level 6 spell in an alternate school than to try to get to a level 9 spell in the schools you are already using.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 13:38 by dck

screatures is always good enough to kill both of those things, very few reasonable situations exist where you would fight an oof or egolem as a primarily spellcaster who really can't make any use out of ood in the battle, lastly a primarily spellcaster has a whole game of exp on his back and must've at some point gotten some sort of melee which can be empowered with !might to kill pretty much anything.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 21:01 by Hurkyl

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Without going into the wider topic of defending duvessa's statement, if you are training any significant amount of Fire skill, Bolt of Fire is better than Magma. Basically Earth skill has to be much higher than Fire skill for Magma to come out on top.

At equal power, the difference in damage is minor. Yes, Magma will do 2 less damage (out of like 20ish on average, at 50 power), but it has the advantage of being merely level 5 which is a pretty major benefit in the early-mid game.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 21:06 by crate

The difference in range is large, especially since all bolts except lightning lose 1 range per target hit.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 21:25 by Sar

Lightning bolt doesn't lose range? I had no idea!

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 21:30 by duvessa

You also won't have equal power because unless you're doing something very stupid, at best you're training 100% of the schools in bolt of fire and 66% of the schools in bolt of magma

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 21:33 by Psiweapon

Logical conclusion: axing bolt of magma.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 21:35 by duvessa

Getting rid of one of crawl's 50 bolts sounds pretty reasonable to me, yeah.

Wednesday, 18th June 2014, 22:47 by TheDefiniteArticle

Hurkyl wrote:
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Without going into the wider topic of defending duvessa's statement, if you are training any significant amount of Fire skill, Bolt of Fire is better than Magma. Basically Earth skill has to be much higher than Fire skill for Magma to come out on top.

At equal power, the difference in damage is minor.

if you are training any significant amount of Fire skill, Bolt of Fire [has more power] than Magma. Basically Earth skill has to be much higher than Fire skill for Magma [spellpower] to come out on top.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 07:54 by Sprucery

I agree that bolt of magma should probably go, if there's no reason for anyone to actually use it.

What about if bolt of magma had a chance of generating flame clouds in it's path? The chance should obviously scale with spellpower.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 08:41 by rchandra

Bolt of Magma has seemed useful to me as an EE - as an FE I'd never use it over Bolt of Fire.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 10:19 by Sar

Why would you use it over LRD? Noise?

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 11:49 by rchandra

Noise, targetting pattern, wall presence/absence, armoured foe. I seem to like having more conjurations than I should when I play blasty types, even though I melee too much too though :)

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 14:45 by damiac

Bolt of magma is a little odd, but for someone with middling earth/high conjurations/no fire it's superior to bolt of fire and LRD. I don't know if that's relevant very often, I'm thinking maybe a conjurations focused ogre... who for some reason doesn't want to do fire...

I don't know... it's pretty rare that it's useful, but it's not entirely useless. Plus it's level 5, so it's got that over bolt of fire.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 15:50 by Siegurt

Yeah, I use bolt of Magma on my EEs because "I have earth skill and want a bolt spell, and it was available" LRD is great, but not always the best firing pattern, sometimes destroying that wall to hit those three creatures is bad, sometimes I need to hit things that are adjacent to me, with no wall behind them to target with LRD (and backing up with open a bottleneck letting more things attack me.)

Bolt of Magma actually does nearly the same damage as Bolt of Fire (2 less max damage, 1 average, more variance) with the same spellpower, but of course if you have more fire than earth, you'll have better power with BoF (Since it's only two-school) however 5 mana for that much damage isn't bad, it's more damage than say, an un-bounced lightning bolt or fireball at the same power (of course fireball doesn't miss, and lightning bolt can bounce and doesn't lose range, and three-school spells take more XP to get the same power.)

If you just think of it as "the one and only earth-school bolt spell, which happens, for some reason, to get a slight bump if you also train some fire magic" it works.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 17:14 by crate

Probably the biggest benefit to bolt of magma for EE is it doesn't have LRD's targeter. The amount of annoyance this saves is quite significant.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 18:23 by XuaXua

Sprucery wrote:What about if bolt of magma had a chance of generating flame clouds in it's path? The chance should obviously scale with spellpower.

That would be cool, or if it left magma on the floor where it targeted (or where it passed through), you know, since it's MAGMA.

I'm not a good player, but when I played EE, I picked Bolt of Magma over Bolt of Fire.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 19:26 by e1999

Pools of magma/flame clouds would make it absurdly powerful. Like a 1 tile wide firestorm or a bolt of fire with conjure flame added to it.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 21:03 by Lasty

To be fair, the clouds Firestorm leaves behind do only a tiny fraction of its overall damage, but that's because it does a gigantic amount of initial damage.

Leaving clouds behind would be a bigger deal for bolt of magma, since it does considerably less damage, but it wouldn't be absolutely nuts to add that as a feature if the initial damage were somewhat reduced.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 21:38 by Psiweapon

Or it could be just small clouds. Those that dissipate in a turn.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 22:06 by duvessa

That's still an extra 13.5 average damage to every monster in the bolt's path.

Thursday, 19th June 2014, 22:15 by Sprucery

If the probability of generating a flame cloud on a particular spot was tied to spellpower, the balance of the spell could be adjusted simply by that probability. It could be close to nonexistent at low spellpower.

Friday, 20th June 2014, 00:25 by XuaXua

duvessa wrote:That's still an extra 13.5 average damage to every monster in the bolt's path.

Then make them smaller or consider resistances in calculations.

Friday, 20th June 2014, 01:14 by duvessa

How about this instead: don't add flame clouds to bolt of magma for no reason, that sounds good to me