How do I deal with Smiteing


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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 09:42

How do I deal with Smiteing

I lose most of my early characters to Orc Priests popping up the the worst possible times and smiting me to death.

When an Orc Preist shows up either I kill him instantly or he spams Smite and I die horribly. I try to run if I know I can't kill him but he just Smites me anyway. At least Orc Wizards I can handle by retreating to a corridor; but Preists... Preists have to be the cause of about 50%+ of my deaths [Adders being a pain is about 25% probobly, running into them at XL 1 or 2 with 0 potions of cureing is nasty...]

I've got a couple of ways that can deal with them; but they are not reliable:

- If I'm playing an AE I can spam Shock and hope it kills him before he decides 'Smite time'
- If there's a clear shot; and I'm a VM I can try Clouding him; but usually at this point it has an almost 25% miscast rate... and then he could resist.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 09:55

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

I would suggest always running from orcs, as they are often found together. Once you are sure it's on its own, you can kill it.
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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 10:02

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Rule Zero. If you see a new monster, walk away from it.

'Walk away from it?'

On the tightest path towards the nearest known-safe upstairs, 10+ tiles, not moving near or through unexplored territory so you won't get sandwiched in from unexpected enemies. Also move to break LoS whenever convenient. Close doors behind you if only one enemy is following or it's a one enemy wide channel. (If you find yourself making movement mistakes (moving orthogonally along a corner corridor - two moves - instead of cutting the corner with a diagonal move - one move - and mistakes equivalent to that), calm down, it's a turn based game, not Run For Your Life Real Time Simulator. Assess, analyze, choose, repeat. A small amount of time spent to ensure your tactical movement is on-point will save hours of time dying to something you did not need to - a big win for both winrate and time spent playing Crawl.)

'Why should I obey Rule Zero? I walk towards every monster the moment I see it and hit it until it's dead! What's so bad about that plan?'

1) Let's talk about stealth, noise and monster AI. A monster starts asleep. It remains asleep until either a noise (from fighting, a spell, a shout) reaches its ears, or it's in your LoS and you fail a stealth check (which occurs after every logical player turn). Then it has a possibility of shouting and it becomes unaware. Unaware has two states: Approaching noise (it walks to where the most recent noise it heard is) and wandering (it hasn't heard a noise lately, so it moves at random). In this state, you can again fail a stealth check with it in LoS - it has a possibility of shouting and now it is pursuing you and will actively move towards you until a) it's out of your LoS b) you pass a harder stealth check, whereupon it goes back to wandering. Also, you can make an aggressive action against the wandering monster - if you do this, it ALWAYS becomes pursuing, and NEVER shouts in the process. This trick has a name: Shoutless. (Named by me because it didn't have one ^^)
...So, what does all this mean?
Notice there is no mechanic like: "If I am a group monster and I see a group member moving towards something, move with it." Nope! Monsters follow noises, are pursuing because they were in your LoS and saw you, or do nothing/wander around.
So let's say I see a wandering orc. I grab its attention by throwing a stone at it, making it go to pursuing without shouting. Maybe the action made a noise, and its other orc band members walk to where I threw the stone, so I must act immediately. I retreat away from the orc towards a nearby staircase and do so for 10+ tiles. Now even if other orcs heard the commotion - they go to it, see nothing, give up and go back to wandering. I can now dispatch this ONE orc at my leisure.

2) Similarly, if you rest or fight near the edge of LoS, unexplored territory could have monsters in it - including dangerous ones - and group monsters like orcs and gnolls could have friends near them - and the longer you fight/rest, the longer you give them to hear the noise of your recent actions, or simply just wander into your LoS because they were awoken by something. So also avoid doing this.

3) Stairs are incredibly OP. It takes 1.0 turns of 'leaving' before you leave the level, then you lose 1.333 turns (0.666 turns if you've never been to the level before) on the other side, but nothing that wasn't next to you when you started taking the stairs can follow. Stairs bring you to a level you know the layout of 100% and know is already cleared of monsters (respawns are possible, but they can happen anywhere and are very unlikely to be relevant), and more importantly - nothing can follow you now, you know that this is all you have to deal with (or escape from) now. If you retreat towards the stairs, you can use the stairs on less notice.

4) Every combat can go wrong. Every monster can get lucky hits, you can get unlucky miscasts, etc etc. If you are further away from unexplored territory, then less monsters can find you while you are weak from a bad encounter. You are closer to stairs that can save you from further conflict. Etc etc. Rule Zero is a simple way to minimize the risk you take while playing Crawl, by making less of it happen and ensuring you can flee from it better - because you've already done most of the legwork.

Follow Rule Zero until you've cleared Lair, and your win rate will shoot up! Doctors hate him! One weird tip discovered by a mom...

(By the way, the next rule after rule zero to learn is: You are not obliged to kill everything. Effectively, you 'kill' a monster by not having to fight it as much as you do killing it, because there is far more exp in the dungeon that is safe to acquire and you don't need to take risks to get more ever. Any time you flee from an orc priest and go to a different part of the level or different level, you have 'killed' it. And you can even come back and steamroll it at a higher experience level if it matters that much to you ;) )

(Appendix A: When a monster smites you, it deals 7-17 damage (weighted towards the average of 12). It is not resistable except for things like Deep Dwarf's damage shaving - AC does nothing. When you see an orc priest, you should first think 'if he starts laying 17-bombs on my face on consecutive turns, do I have a plan for that? - maybe you don't, and you should run. Or if you HAVE to engage, just keep it in mind.)

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dck

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 10:51

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Right, I think when you first see a new monster what you should do is look at him (xv) and see what he does. If you don't know what his spells do then ?/s"spell name" tells you that.
Also """"rule zero"""" sounds like a bad idea to me in general as a lot of things don't come into view at the edge of LoS. For example walking away with no cover around from a priest that comes into view 5 tiles away at the XL a priest is dangerous then waltzing back is only going to get you further smitten and leave you in a poorer position when you eventually have to use something to get rid of him (either by killing him or leaving the area yourself).

A better basic approach for new things is using corners and LoS-blocking in general, because literally no monster can damage you from out of your LoS unless it uses clouds or some other weird stuff, learning to use corners and doors to force enemies to approach to you helps you fight on your own terms instead of just taking up fights as soon as the option shows up.
What is also a good idea is splitting packs as described in the post above in excruciating detail and more importantly, realizing that the presence of some nasty monsters like priests can be given away by the rest of members of its band, giving you further reasons not to charge at monsters when they show up (although this is something that is a very bad idea in general).

Also races with HP are pretty good, in case you're playing something like silly elves etc.
For AEs static discharge and bizapping with shock are possibilities often ignored by newer players and they shouldn't, as they're both very strong options.
VM have it pretty simple since they can poison with sting and then walk away (breaking LoS in the case of priests) from basically all important monsters early on.

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 12:20

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

dck wrote:A better basic approach for new things is using corners and LoS-blocking in general, because literally no monster can damage you from out of your LoS unless it uses clouds or some other weird stuff, learning to use corners and doors to force enemies to approach to you helps you fight on your own terms instead of just taking up fights as soon as the option shows up.
Like when Im behind an corner and Deep Troll Earth Mage cast LRD, feels like Im caught with my pants down. ^_^

Edit: btw heres the list of monsters that can cast Smiting: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Smite
Last edited by Eyesburn on Thursday, 12th June 2014, 12:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 12:24

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Yeah, when you see a dangerous enemy and there's no cover nearby and it's not at the edge of LoS, you have to think about whether to follow rule zero or not.
Since every time it casts a spell (or does a cantrip in the case of an orc priest) it loses a tile on you, sometimes you can safely escape from it by just running optimally, and if you can take the worst case (or consumables can bail you out of serious bad luck) sometimes you want to flee anyway.
But if your options are slim or you're confident you can hammer it into paste fast enough, it can be fine to engage right away.
Similar thing with a centaur appearing with no cover nearby - if running will pepper you full of arrows and it's too dangerous, break rule zero and engage.

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 18:28

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

A few other possibilities for Orc Priests and other enemies with smite-targeted attacks, or really anything you're not ready or willing to go toe-to-toe against:

1. Use penetrating or area of effect (AoE) attacks to hit them while they're hiding behind other enemies. An early wand of Fire/Cold/Lightning/Draining/Fireball, for instance; Lee's Rapid Deconstruction; Makhleb or Qazlal powers; etc.

2. Turn the rest of the pack against them, for instance by confusing/enslaving/paralyzing one or more of the enemies they're hiding behind. This is especially good in a one-tile corridor, as you've just created a roadblock that will help you escape faster.

3. If you think it's safe to do so, spend a turn or two hitting the priest with a ranged poison attack before kiting it as described in Rule Zero. Grab a blowgun the moment you see one for exactly this purpose, you don't need any Throwing skill to make it effective. (Set the blowgun to slot 'b' in your inventory [using '='] so you can swap between it and your main weapon -- which should be in slot 'a' -- using the apostrophe key; then turn on autopickup for needles in the '\' menu.)

4. Use a throwing net, another thing it's often useful to grab as soon as you find. Then either escape at your leisure or stroll up and make the kill. (This does not work against larger enemies.)

5. If the priest comes into LoS near to you, like from behind a door or corner, think about immediately closing to melee range. Each turn it will have a chance to take a swing at you rather than cast, lowering the chances of being smited while you're killing it.

6. Use a consumable, evokable, god power or spell to buff yourself for escape or to get through the fight faster. A potion of might or Okawaru's Heroism can help you plow through the front lines and get to that priest quickly. Extra AC from Stoneskin or Ozocubu's Armour can reduce the damage you take fighting your way through, leaving more HP to absorb smites. I'm pretty sure Orc Priests can't see invisible, so a potion/ring/wand of invisibility can help you make a getaway or launch a surprise attack. Etc., etc.

7. Zin's Recite is pretty effective at disabling orc packs, making it safer to take out the priest immediately. Or you can play as an orc yourself and worship Beogh.

EDIT: 8. Play as an Abyssal Knight, the *** piety ability is basically a "go away" button for anything whose name shows up in red.

Beyond Rule Zero and a willingness to run from stuff you're not ready or willing to fight, a big part of this game is learning to make creative, effective, and frequent use of whatever meager tools you find lying around the early dungeon. Deciding which tactic is "best" in a given situation is part of the art, and the fun, of Crawl.
Last edited by tedric on Friday, 13th June 2014, 16:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 18:48

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

All the advice above about running is very good.

If you can't or won't run, you have been warned, but careful LOS management will usually get you through safely.

How melee chars kill orc priests (and orc wizards and centaurs):
  Code:
#####
#.ooo
#o###
#@#


Standing in a corner like this will only let 2 orcs in LOS at a time, and only let 1 orc in clear line of effect at a time. Best of all, orcs entering LOS will be at most 2 tiles away.

If you have good ranged damage of any sort, you can just kill a priest straight up from 8 tiles away. They aren't tough. If there's also a wizard, or another priest, or if the priest is hiding behind plain orcs, this is often too risky. Either just run or use corners again to manage LOS.
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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 18:49

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

tedric wrote:5. If the priest comes into LoS near to you, like from behind a door or corner, think about immediately closing to melee range. Each turn it will have a chance to take a swing at you rather than cast, lowering the chances of being smited while you're killing it.

I could be mistaken, but I heard that the turns the priest spends swinging at you are turns during which it would otherwise walk towards you; put another way, the standing next to a caster doesn't reduce its chances of casting.

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 18:56

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Also be aware that Orc Priests can have 9-21 HP. 21 HP is a lot, with spear you would need at least 4 attacks and you can get 68 damage from 4 smites, with mace - at least 3 attacks (51 damage from 3 smites) etc. So if you can avoid fighting Orc Priest, do it. With low HP characters it is not a bad idea to put exclusions even at plain Orcs because you never know if there is an Orc Priest nearby.
Orc Wizards have similar problems (9-21HP), you can kill first Orc Wizard just fine but next one with 21 HP will become invisible, hasted and start throwing flame/frost/magic dart at you.

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 18:58

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Unless it picked up a rare potion or wand, an orc wizard will only become either hasted or invisible. [EDIT: Sorry not actually true, sometimes orc wizards can have both invis and haste spells]

But yes it is probably not a good idea to attack orc wizard/priest with unenchanted, unbranded tier one weapons. OTOH every background except maybe wanderer should have better offensive options than that. Nonetheless depending on species/background combo they range from dangerous to extremely dangerous early on, of course.

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 18:59

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

and into wrote:Unless it picked up a rare potion or wand, an orc wizard will only become either hasted or invisible.


I guess wiki is wrong again.
Spell set III contains both.
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Orc_wizard

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 19:02

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Sandman25 wrote:
and into wrote:Unless it picked up a rare potion or wand, an orc wizard will only become either hasted or invisible.


I guess wiki is wrong again.
Spell set III contains both.
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Orc_wizard


Oops, nope, I'm wrong (confirmed in game, spell book III does contain both).

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 19:08

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

I lost a CSDC character to a hasted, invis orc wizard in the first season. AFAIK it was the first time I ever ran into that.

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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 22:07

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Alternatively, play a formicid and dig a v into the wall. Forces everything to fight you in melee, one at a time.
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Post Thursday, 12th June 2014, 22:50

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Lasty wrote:
tedric wrote:5. If the priest comes into LoS near to you, like from behind a door or corner, think about immediately closing to melee range. Each turn it will have a chance to take a swing at you rather than cast, lowering the chances of being smited while you're killing it.

I could be mistaken, but I heard that the turns the priest spends swinging at you are turns during which it would otherwise walk towards you; put another way, the standing next to a caster doesn't reduce its chances of casting.

Correct.

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 02:44

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

How do I deal with Smiteing

There are, in all of Crawl, exactly 3 ways to deal with orc priests:
-Avoiding them
-Having high HP
-Being a Hill Orc and converting to Beogh the turn before you die

You will notice that these are the exact same things that make a character strong generally:
-Being able to move quickly (or in the case of Pale Drac, able to block LOS)
-Having high HP
-Being a Hill Orc

This is not a coincidence.

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 06:32

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
How do I deal with Smiteing

There are, in all of Crawl, exactly 3 ways to deal with orc priests:
-Avoiding them
-Having high HP
-Being a Hill Orc and converting to Beogh the turn before you die

You will notice that these are the exact same things that make a character strong generally:
-Being able to move quickly (or in the case of Pale Drac, able to block LOS)
-Having high HP
-Being a Hill Orc

This is not a coincidence.

Killing them works wonders too...

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 12:34

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

I usually play Draconians or Demonspawn, because they have that element of unpredictability; every game with them is a little different.

Anyway; Orc Priests are being less of a pain now; since I'm being more cautious when I see one Orc; because I could easily blunder into death charging at him if there's a Priest around the corner or something.

Still dying a lot; but making it to temple more often. My general theme is dying right after getting a God to some OOD monster shows up. I've bumped into Hippogryphs; Wyverns; Jellies [Not far OOD but I don't usually see them on say, D:4], and Hill Giants.
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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 13:39

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

raikaria wrote:I usually play Draconians or Demonspawn, because they have that element of unpredictability; every game with them is a little different.

Anyway; Orc Priests are being less of a pain now; since I'm being more cautious when I see one Orc; because I could easily blunder into death charging at him if there's a Priest around the corner or something.

Still dying a lot; but making it to temple more often. My general theme is dying right after getting a God to some OOD monster shows up. I've bumped into Hippogryphs; Wyverns; Jellies [Not far OOD but I don't usually see them on say, D:4], and Hill Giants.

Hippogriff:
  Code:
<Cheibriados> hippogriff (H) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 25-53 | AC/EV: 2/7 | Dam: 10, 8, 8 | fly | Res: magic(28) | XP: 185 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

Speed 10, can be walked away from. Not very high damage if you have any AC at all. MR sucks, can be hexed by spell or by wand easily.
Wyvern:
  Code:
Cheibriados> wyvern (D) | Spd: 15 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 20 | fly | Res: magic(20) | XP: 208 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

The only one you mentioned that's actually faster than you. However, absolutely pathetic HP and MR. Hexes, attack wands, etc will destroy it.
Jelly:
  Code:
<Cheibriados> jelly (J) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 12-21 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Dam: 3(acid:7d3) | eats items, amphibious, see invisible | Res: magic(12), poison, acid+++, asphyx, drown | XP: 42 | Sz: small | Int: plant.

Speed 10. Walk away from it. MR is awful, hexes work. HP is awful, attack wands work.
  Code:
<Cheibriados> hill giant (C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 42-77 | AC/EV: 3/4 | Dam: 30 | items, doors | Res: magic(44), drown | Chunks: contam | XP: 657 | Sz: Giant | Int: normal.

Hill giants are really tough HP. Note that damage? That's BEFORE adding in the damage of the club they wield, so the max is really more like 50. Ouch! Their MR is mediocre, but if you're untrained hexing is starting to get harder, and they have the HP now to sustain a bit of a beating, even though their bad defenses mean you'll hit them pretty much every time you try to. (Also, rarely, hill giants will have nets.) But, their speed of 10 means that if you don't like your odds against a hill giant, walk away from it!

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 13:58

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

raikaria wrote:I usually play Draconians or Demonspawn, because they have that element of unpredictability; every game with them is a little different.

Anyway; Orc Priests are being less of a pain now; since I'm being more cautious when I see one Orc; because I could easily blunder into death charging at him if there's a Priest around the corner or something.

Still dying a lot; but making it to temple more often. My general theme is dying right after getting a God to some OOD monster shows up. I've bumped into Hippogryphs; Wyverns; Jellies [Not far OOD but I don't usually see them on say, D:4], and Hill Giants.


It's almost always a good idea to pick up a blowgun and some needles. Hippogryphs, Wyverns and Hill Giants are not poison resistant and don't have particularly good EV so you will at least soften them up before they reach you.

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 16:25

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

raikaria wrote:My general theme is dying right after getting a God to some OOD monster shows up.

Try starting as an Abyssal Knight, the *** piety ability is basically a "go away" button for anything whose name shows up in red. Since you are building piety from turn 1 and Lugonu likes kills and corpse sacrifices, it doesn't take long to get to ***. You'll start in the Abyss with a guaranteed exit nearby and enough piety to leave with another god ability, which is good because you really don't want to fight anything in the Abyss on turn 1. Of course you'll still need to learn to deal with those "OOD" enemies eventually, but this way you can delay encounters with each monster type until they're not OOD anymore, so you're less likely to splat while figuring them out.
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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 16:28

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Hopeless wrote:Killing them works wonders too...

"Removing the monster from LOS" falls under the "Avoiding" category.

I would strongly advise you to stop treating cosmetic differences as if they matter. It is only going to hold you back from playing the game well.

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 16:33

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Hopeless wrote:Killing them works wonders too...

"Removing the monster from LOS" falls under the "Avoiding" category.

I would strongly advise you to stop treating cosmetic differences as if they matter. It is only going to hold you back from playing the game well.


Speaking about cosmetic differences. What do you mean as "having high HP"? Isn't it included in your "Avoiding" category? Every character either kills specific monster and gets out of its LoS. If you combine the two, every character gets out of LoS of every monster. Converting to Beogh is part of "Avoiding" too so your list effectively consists of a single item.

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 16:39

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Having HP enables you to NOT avoid things.

"Being a Hill Orc" is totally unrelated.

every character gets out of LoS of every monster

Every character who WINS.
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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 16:41

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Just remove the e. ;)

Barring that, there's lots of useful information in the above posts. :)
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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 16:46

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Having HP enables you to NOT avoid things.


Sorry, I am still not clear. If killing a monster is a way of "avoiding" it, what do you do with high HP character? Or did you mean "killing" here keeping in mind that it is stupid to try killing a monster if you can die while doing so (and thus high HP becomes a prerequisite for killing Orc Priest)?
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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 17:52

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Hopeless wrote:Killing them works wonders too...

"Removing the monster from LOS" falls under the "Avoiding" category.

I would strongly advise you to stop treating cosmetic differences as if they matter. It is only going to hold you back from playing the game well.

Its been a long while since an Orc Priest was the cause of one of my myriad deaths. I am not sure how killing things falls under cosmetic but then again your comments often seem deliberately obtuse to me.

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 19:51

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Sandman25 wrote:what do you do with high HP character?

1--Get hit
2--Have HP left afterwards

Could not be more straightforward.

it is stupid to try killing a monster if you can die while doing so

No it isn't. You're still thinking of killing and avoiding as different things. You "kill" a monster only because that is the safest/fastest way to get/keep it out of your LOS.

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 21:06

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

Am I having a stroke? What is going on here?

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Arrhythmia, cerebovssquire, Psiweapon

Slime Squisher

Posts: 354

Joined: Tuesday, 14th January 2014, 23:33

Post Saturday, 14th June 2014, 12:47

Re: How do I deal with Smiteing

I made a joke about Hill Orcs and things got slightly out of hand. 8-)

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