General Z5 Tips?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 13:36

General Z5 Tips?

[Apologies if this has been covered extensively elsewhere; no luck searching Tavern for "zot advice" or similar...]

I'm not all that interested in actually winning the game very often, partly due to the reasons I have for playing in the first place, but also in part because of how overwhelming the orb run always turns out to be. This is not a complaint! It makes perfect sense for that part of your game to be brutal, but I usually end up choosing to go get killed somewhere else. Again, not any sort of problem.

But, so, what would be some general tips for tackling the orb chamber? Anything goes...


A few queries, off the top:

- Any spells/items/evokables that are particularly effective there?

- Is getting swarmed inevitable? (Knocked up a bloodless Vp, Stealth 27, all the Stlth+ I could fit on my body, maxed Dith etc in Wiz Mode, and still got noticed fairly quickly; although I wasn't actually stabbing as I went...)

- Is teleport, teleport, teleport what is known as the "Zot Waltz"? And does it reasonably get you anything other than dead?

- Besides rF, MR and rMut (which is always the biggest deciding factor for me), any specific resists that really help?

- Re HP/AC/EV/SH, is there anything more to say than, "more is better"? Healthy minimums? [Which should be the name of a band, IMO]

- Any particular meta-strategies that really pay off there? Odd synergies and such, switching gods and what have you.


Thanks!

Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 13:42

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Usually possible to tackle one or two at a time by tickling them and running back to the stairs, but if it's one orb of fire that can be very annoying even with rmut. One lurking at the neck can ruin your day.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 13:55

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Know how you're going to safely deal with an Ancient Lich. Know how you're going to safely deal with an Orb of Fire. Know how you're going to escape if you run into more than one at a time.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 13:56

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Apportation and Shadow Creatures are especially good in Zot (excellent outside, as well).

I don't remember being swarmed in Zot in my last few games (apart from unlucky teleports); when you encounter a monster, do you move towards it or stand still and let it approach you? If you actually move back into explored terrain upon sighting a monster, you can uaually fight 1 or 2 monsters at a time. Retreating from some monsters (orbs of fire in particular) is quite hard but you can use haste, scrolls of fog, controlled blink and corners to your advantage.

"zotwaltz" is where you walk through the whole orb chamber and pick up the orb, not teleporting (don't zotwaltz).

rF is really important for obvious reasons, and some potions of resistance help, especially if you lack rElec for electric golems or for situations where you are fighting monsters dealing different elemental damage (e.g. electric golem, orb of fire and killer klown) at once. rMut is helpful but really, you are about to win the game so a few bad mutations are the least of your worries. Most bad mutations aren't really that big a deal, some of the worst (teleportitis and berserkeritis) can be countered by items. Don't worry if you don't find an rMut amulet.

Re: AC/EV/SH/HP: SH isn't that good in zot (doesn't block any orb of fire attacks, doesn't block egolem ranged attacks, doesn't block a lot of stuff that aliches or their summons can do, bad against multiple enemies when something does go wrong).

Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 14:38

Re: General Z5 Tips?

ctrl+f curare, get a blowgun and shoot them at orb guardians.

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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 14:41

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Using Shadow Creatures vs. orb guardians is somewhat questionable, as it seems to produce moths of wrath very often, and a berserking orb guardian isn't really something you want to experience if you want to win.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 14:58

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Pretty sure you can't curare orbs, being as how they are poison resistant and non-breathing? Probably missing a joke...

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 15:00

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Orb guardians, not orbs of fire. Orb guardians don't have rPois.

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 16:57

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Shadow Creature makes Zot very easy. I recently won with a FoEE of Chei that just spammed Shadow Creature and Sublimation/Wucad Mu. It always feels like cheating, no matter how often it gets nerfed. Shadow Creature can summon anything that spawns there, except orbs of fire and orb guardians. The only enemy that it doesn't work too well against are orbs of fire, since they kill your summons too quickly.

The only times I remember ever getting swarmed is when I did the "teleport roulette" (i.e. random teleporting on Zot:5). It trivialized Zot. Dive down to Zot:5, do the roulette, and apportate the Orb. Finish in 5 minutes. I managed to win with a couple of level 16 spriggans, due to how easy it was. It required some prep work, but that was about it. I haven't tried it again, since the apportation nerf.

Zot Zealot

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 19:30

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Abusing teleport is my favorite strategy, though not the safest way. I hit haste, agility, resistance, brilliance, whatever spell buffs I have, then tele port until I'm in a lung and run into apport range from there. Tele again if you land in a bad situation (too many tough dudes, ghost moth or moth of wrath appear, etc.). Then apport the orb and tele out. I have maybe 85% success rate doing this.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 21:17

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Actually SCreatures can get you orbs of fire, on Zot:1 even.

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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Saturday, 7th June 2014, 23:05

Re: General Z5 Tips?

The safest way to do zot:5 is also the safest way to do any part of the game thus far. E.g. whenever you see even one enemy reverse directions, move out of the vault (ALLLL the way out), find a chokepoint and kill the one or two things that followed you all the way (everything else might notice the noise of the initial encounter but won't see you when they get there and thus won't pursue). Repeat over and over until nothing is left alive. Also, make sure to clear the REST of zot:5 once you've cleared a path through the vault, usually a lot of stuff teleports out from traps and you don't want to get in a bad fight with the orb picked up (since pandemonium lords can spawn around you, etc)

If you do this and you have a plan for what to do when you see an orb of fire or an ancient lich, you'll be fine.

Also, if you have blinkitis or teleportitis, for the love of god, don't forget that you have it on zot:5!

Temple Termagant

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Post Sunday, 8th June 2014, 02:38

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Like many other people have said, just lure out enemies one at a time, and you can't really go wrong. Just remember to keep patient and it'll take a while, because zot:5 is chock full of baddies, but eventually you will have killed everything inside. You should only be fighting one thing at a time.

If silence has not been mentioned yet, it trivializes ancient liches.
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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 8th June 2014, 03:23

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Greenflame wrote:Like many other people have said, just lure out enemies one at a time, and you can't really go wrong. Just remember to keep patient and it'll take a while, because zot:5 is chock full of baddies, but eventually you will have killed everything inside. You should only be fighting one thing at a time.

If silence has not been mentioned yet, it trivializes ancient liches.

I am assuming because at least in a 3 runer without deviating into E3 etc you probably won't find many scrolls of Silence. It seems rather rare in that I see maybe 1 or 2 scrolls the entire game.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 8th June 2014, 11:51

Re: General Z5 Tips?

well silence is also a spell and an amazing spell at that.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 8th June 2014, 13:36

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Sar wrote:Actually SCreatures can get you orbs of fire, on Zot:1 even.


I never summoned one before. :( I did a quick search and it seems you can summon anything, except orb guardians.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Sunday, 8th June 2014, 13:39

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Thanks for all the replies. I'll definitely go for the win with the next few characters that make it that far.

Curare for guardians, silence for liches, shadow creatures (sometimes). All your buffs and potions. Don't worry so much about mutations (but maybe have stasis handy).
All good to know, or be reminded of.

Seems to be, roughly:
- standard luring and retreating practices for the duration to avoid getting in over your head; kill almost all the dudes; explore almost all of Z5 total...
vs
- know apportation; get buffest; tele until..., apport, skedaddle.

EDIT: [Was just reminded of this reading another thread.] Antimagic branded weapons, if you can use them somewhat effectively.
Last edited by milo on Monday, 9th June 2014, 06:11, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 8th June 2014, 13:50

Re: General Z5 Tips?

You can just leave out one of the "lungs" of the orb chamber out and retreat by the way you came, no need to kill nearly everything in Zot:5. This strategy is safer (compared to teleroulette) if you have sufficient killing power, but not viable for some characters.
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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 8th June 2014, 16:15

Re: General Z5 Tips?

e1999 wrote:well silence is also a spell and an amazing spell at that.

I thought my point about scrolls also illustrated the problem with hoping for a specific spell book too...

Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 9th June 2014, 03:46

Re: General Z5 Tips?

rN and rC for Ancient Liches, their bolts of cold and draining can seriously hurt.
Especially if they summon a tormenting demon or two first.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 9th June 2014, 11:31

Re: General Z5 Tips?

cerebovssquire wrote:You can just leave out one of the "lungs" of the orb chamber out and retreat by the way you came, no need to kill nearly everything in Zot:5. This strategy is safer (compared to teleroulette) if you have sufficient killing power, but not viable for some characters.


This raises an interesting question. I have always just cleared one side of the orb vault and ran for it, just as you describe. This usually works great. But sometimes on the way out with the orb I find myself needing to teleport, and once in a while I land in a significantly more dangerous position in the uncleared other half, sometimes one from which another teleport can't save me in time. SO:

is it actually worth clearing *both* sides to prevent this sort of thing? Or is it worse on average?

Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 9th June 2014, 11:38

Re: General Z5 Tips?

zardo wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:You can just leave out one of the "lungs" of the orb chamber out and retreat by the way you came, no need to kill nearly everything in Zot:5. This strategy is safer (compared to teleroulette) if you have sufficient killing power, but not viable for some characters.


This raises an interesting question. I have always just cleared one side of the orb vault and ran for it, just as you describe. This usually works great. But sometimes on the way out with the orb I find myself needing to teleport, and once in a while I land in a significantly more dangerous position in the uncleared other half, sometimes one from which another teleport can't save me in time. SO:

is it actually worth clearing *both* sides to prevent this sort of thing? Or is it worse on average?


I think it depends on your general strength. clearing both lungs wont be a great idea if youre not that strong and had to burn all consumables to get to the chamber while being a really really strong character wants you to clear both lungs so that you'll falll in a less dangerous position in orbrun.
But I guess if you are really strong you wont be that afraid of seeing some OOFs chasing you during orbrun

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 9th June 2014, 13:31

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Or you can use degenerate strategy of spamming apportation all the way back to z:5 stairs. Casting apportation on the orb does not initiate orbrun. Picking it up does.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 9th June 2014, 13:41

Re: General Z5 Tips?

That's a really bad idea. It doesn't start the orb run but it does make a bunch of noise and draw a bunch of monsters from the uncleared lung.

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 9th June 2014, 14:23

Re: General Z5 Tips?

For me it's much better to fight them if they appear rather than run into pan lord on z:5 supported by ancient lich and electric golem, but hey, whatever is more fun (less risk?) for you!

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 9th June 2014, 16:00

Re: General Z5 Tips?

zardo wrote:is it actually worth clearing *both* sides to prevent this sort of thing? Or is it worse on average?

Obviously the best choice depends on a lot of variables, but typically anything that involves spending unnecessary time in Zot 5 is a bad idea. Zot 5 is a bad place to be, to the extent that I don't even like to rest there if I can avoid it. You wanna do the bare minimum to grab the orb and get out alive.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 10th June 2014, 05:17

Re: General Z5 Tips?

WalkerBoh wrote:Abusing teleport is my favorite strategy, though not the safest way. I hit haste, agility, resistance, brilliance, whatever spell buffs I have, then tele port until I'm in a lung and run into apport range from there. Tele again if you land in a bad situation (too many tough dudes, ghost moth or moth of wrath appear, etc.). Then apport the orb and tele out. I have maybe 85% success rate doing this.


85% by the time you get to Zot seems rather low to me. What do you do in the case you get blasted by an ancient lich, draconian shifter, or orb of fire?
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Tuesday, 10th June 2014, 06:44

Re: General Z5 Tips?

hannobal wrote:rN and rC for Ancient Liches, their bolts of cold and draining can seriously hurt.
Especially if they summon a tormenting demon or two first.

Just to note, ancient liches can also know bolt of fire (though it's not as common as bolt of draining, which is in two books, and bolt of cold/throw icicle, which are in one each)

Zot Zealot

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Post Tuesday, 10th June 2014, 07:20

Re: General Z5 Tips?

Brannock wrote:
WalkerBoh wrote:Abusing teleport is my favorite strategy, though not the safest way. I hit haste, agility, resistance, brilliance, whatever spell buffs I have, then tele port until I'm in a lung and run into apport range from there. Tele again if you land in a bad situation (too many tough dudes, ghost moth or moth of wrath appear, etc.). Then apport the orb and tele out. I have maybe 85% success rate doing this.


85% by the time you get to Zot seems rather low to me. What do you do in the case you get blasted by an ancient lich, draconian shifter, or orb of fire?

Yeah note that I didn't say it was safe. Liches and orbs aren't much trouble, they won't kill you before you run past them. My deaths have mainly come from moths of wrath berserking orb guardians, ghost moths preventing apport, or just bad teleports/positioning/apport luck. I wouldn't bother unless you are in a hurry, have a strong char, or are looking for a high risk/low reward thrill. :)

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