Merfolk Cross Training

[LackofCertainty]

Merfolk have +4 Polearms and -2 staves. If I wanted to make a staff using merfolk, would it use less xp to level polearms, then train staves with the cross-train bonus, or just level staves by itself?

[Sandman25]

Crosstraining allows to get Staves earlier but it costs extra XP which is pretty important too. I mean I would not use crosstraining unless I cannot survive otherwise.

Edit. I was wrong here. Ignore the advice.

[tedric]

It's not enough of a bonus that you'll really notice the difference from the minimal XP you might save (I say this from...experience). I've asked this question before and was told there is some sort of hidden modifier to skill level XP costs based on how much XP you have invested total across all skills, and supposedly that offsets the cross-training bonus even further.

So basically: Don't bother cross-training, for reasons.

[headcrab0803]

From what I know, there actually was a time when crosstraining for some high-apt species actually saved experience compared to straight on training the desired skill. However, it was changed since its just plain silly if its possible

[duvessa]

that wasnt changed

[headcrab0803]

that wasnt changed

do you mean that there was no such thing from the beginning?

[Patashu]

that wasnt changed

do you mean that there was no such thing from the beginning?

as in, the exploit where you can sometimes save exp still exists, it needs some large apt difference between the two skills that cross-train though

[Arrhythmia]

that wasnt changed

do you mean that there was no such thing from the beginning?

as in, the exploit where you can sometimes save exp still exists, it needs some large apt difference between the two skills that cross-train though

Specifically, if the difference between apts is greater than 4, then it costs less XP to train the skills in tandem than it does together.

[damiac]

So, in cases like these, is there any downside to training two skills instead of one? That is, assuming this MF player might actually want to use a spear now and then, so the skill isn't completely wasted, is it going to be a significant penalty down the line to learning other skills?

[Hurkyl]

So, in cases like these, is there any downside to training two skills instead of one? That is, assuming this MF player might actually want to use a spear now and then, so the skill isn't completely wasted, is it going to be a significant penalty down the line to learning other skills?

There is inflation -- the more skill points you have, the more costly they become.

However, I do not know the magnitude of this effect, nor do I know if this method of reducing the XP requirements also reduces the amount of inflation you get.

[damiac]

So no matter what, if you're only planning on actually using 1 weapon skill, the cost inflation down the line makes stuff like this probably not worthwhile in the long run.

But in the short run you get your weapon at min delay a little earlier. Hmm.

[LackofCertainty]

So it sounds like it would be worth it* for this specific build I'm toying with, but I'd still be better off just picking a race with a better staff apt.

*Obviously not optimal, but better than training staves alone

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

[damiac]

A -2 apt isn't really that terrible anyway. I wouldn't write off MF if you like other things about them, just because of that. And now if a nice spear does show up, you've got the option of using it.

By the way, why are you so set on using staves? The main reason people go for staves is because Lajatangs are effective with a fairly low staves skill, meaning they're XP efficient. But for you, they're really not XP efficient, since you could just train spears. Are you planning on using an enhancer stave in melee?

[LackofCertainty]

Exactly that, damiac, I want to make a build that's based around enhancer staff melee, and probably relying on Evocations to branch out my damage options a bit. I suppose I'd probably be better off just being a gargoyle. (looking at it more closely, much better off)

edit: Also, I much prefer starting as a melee oriented character, so I thought the cross-training from polearms might make the early game smoother. I could just play as a polearm gladiator till I want to make the switch.

[damiac]

While your build isn't exactly typical, I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing. If you like other facets of merfolk, I wouldn't worry too much about this. And, as a bonus, if you find a really nice spear, you can use it.

[Sandman25]

Fighters start with quarterstaff as far as I remember. With Okawaru it can be upgraded to Lajatang and later replaced with enhancer staff if you insist.

[crate]

Fi cannot choose qstaff, only gladiator can (can't wield it with a shield, after all).

[tedric]

I realize that at first glance this will sound contradictory to my previous post, but here it is: +4 apt means it is probably silly not to train polearms, at least to 12/14 skill for a spear/trident. If you go for an enhancer staff later the crosstraining boost will make it a quick transition, and in the meantime your poking skills will be a significant boost to survivability, so the XP investment kind of pays for itself twice.

But because you really can't count on finding the enhancer staff you want -- even after clearing Elf/Vaults/Depths/etc. -- there is no sense training polearms ONLY to set yourself up for crosstraining staves. So the real question is, are polearms the best weapon choice in the early game? +4 apt means they generally will be, unless you get something lucky like an early shortsword/whip of elec, in which case it's probably better to train a bit of that skill (or not, fast elec weapons tend to make early skill training optional) and pick up staves without crosstraining later.