Usefulness of strength relative to other stats

[Klown]

(Mod note: Split this off from a GDD thread on the weightless branch. More appropriate here in DCA. thx, a_i)

DEX = Stealth and EV ++
INT = Everything spells ++
STR = Be able to carry a load of heavy things & tiny mouse-like melee damage boost.

[and into]

Strength reduces the armor penalty to spell casting and evasion. Also the boost to melee damage from strength was buffed fairly recently; it isn't overwhelming but it isn't tiny either. Also also, strength boosts damage output of many forms of ranged combat more noticeably.

Strength and dex are at least doing something useful on nearly all characters, whereas intelligence, aside from having just enough that you don't risk frequent brainlessness, is strictly useless for anyone not casting spells.

[NessOnett]

Strength reduces the armor penalty to spell casting and evasion. Also the boost to melee damage from strength was buffed fairly recently; it isn't overwhelming but it isn't tiny either. Also also, strength boosts damage output of many forms of ranged combat more noticeably.

Strength and dex are at least doing something useful on nearly all characters, whereas intelligence, aside from having just enough that you don't risk frequent brainlessness, is strictly useless for anyone not casting spells.

I don't know the numbers, so correct me if I'm in error, but from what I have heard you will gain more evasion from merely improving your dex instead of trying to offset the armor penalty. As well as Dex usually adding more damage to "most" weapons when compared to strength.

I was always led to believe that (barring niche exceptions, one of which relates to weight capacity) you should prioritize Dex over Str on characters who ignore intelligence. And if that is no longer the case, I'd encourage someone with more knowledge to update the wiki to reflect that.

[zardo]

As well as Dex usually adding more damage to "most" weapons when compared to strength.

This is almost certainly not true, it's just that dex tends to be somewhat preferable overall once you have decent str for your armor looking at all the things it does.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

DEX = Stealth and EV ++
INT = Everything spells ++
STR = Be able to carry a load of heavy things & tiny mouse-like melee damage boost.

That's wrong, here's the accurate version:

DEX = EV (also stealth on the side)
INT = Spell power and spell success (also hunger on the side)
STR = Spell success and EV while wearing non-light armour (also damage on the side)

[duvessa]

As well as Dex usually adding more damage to "most" weapons when compared to strength.

If by "most" you mean "none".

[NessOnett]

As well as Dex usually adding more damage to "most" weapons when compared to strength.

If by "most" you mean "none".

Huh, I didn't know that the devs, the wiki, the community, and the coding of the game were all in error. This must be why "Strength Weight" isn't a stat. Oh wait...

[dck]

Being as polite as I possibly can, you can't know what str weight means and what it does and argue that dex adds more damage to "most" weapons because words have meanings.

[Siegurt]

As well as Dex usually adding more damage to "most" weapons when compared to strength.

If by "most" you mean "none".

Huh, I didn't know that the devs, the wiki, the community, and the coding of the game were all in error. This must be why "Strength Weight" isn't a stat. Oh wait...

Strength weight is the *degree* to which strength is more important than dex, at 0 (minimum) they are equal, at 10 (maximum) Dex has no impact on damage at all.

And damage bonus from stats is really really small, regardless of your stats.

[dck]

Isn't str still twice as good as dex at 0 since the effects of str on melee were doubled?
Not that I pretend to understand how crawl has its way with math.

[duvessa]

no because the effect of dex on melee was also doubled
dex is slightly better for heavily dex-weighted weapons because of accuracy, but that's not what this month's forum troll said! he said damage, and they are the same for damage, not more, also there are two weapons in the entire game (quick blade, blowgun) with str weight 0, and stat damage bonus is not exactly important for blowguns

(fun fact: str weight is also used for accuracy, in a similar way: at 0, accuracy bonus is all dex, at 10, accuracy bonus is half str, half dex)

[Klown]

I just think STR needs a noticeable melee damage boost, especially if Spriggans can suddenly carry as much as Ogres for no reason.

[crate]

the str damage boost actually is reasonably noticeable now imo, though i would personally remove str weighting (give every weapon str weight 10)
but really str, dex, and int all seem to be reasonably equal in power to me

now, there is definitely a reasonable argument that single stat points do not make enough difference at all, but that is for a different topic

[damiac]

I'd like a few examples of characters, to get a handle on reasonable stat allocation. Obviously this is a case by case thing, but clearly statting can be generalized somewhat.
I'll list what I think is reasonable, then people with a better understanding can correct or refine what I've said. I didn't attempt to suggest an armour for each type, so your str will be dependent on the armour you select.

Example 1: Melee non caster (mostly trog followers):
STR - Enough to overcome EVP by 25% (so for evp 19, shoot for 24 or so str)
Dex - All the rest of the stat points
Int - Get it above 3

Example 2: Mainly melee (non trog melee):
STR - Enough to overcome EVP by 25% (so for evp 19, shoot for 24 or so str)
Dex - All the rest of the stat points
Int - Get it above 3

Example 3: Hybrid melee/caster (But not spellpower dependant conjurations)
STR - Around the same as EVP for desired armour (so for evp 19, shoot for 19 or so str)
Dex - split the non str points with int
Int - Split the non str points with dex

Example 4: Hybrid melee/caster (with spellpower dependant conjurations)
STR - Around the same as EVP for desired armour (so for evp 19, shoot for 19 or so str)
Dex - none
Int - All the non STR points

Example 5: Mainly conjurations (Some melee is to be expected, but not focused on it)
STR - Around the same as EVP for desired armour (so for evp 19, shoot for 19 or so str)
Dex - split the non str points with int
Int - Split the non str points with dex

Obviously these are all generalizations, and based on my understanding of stats. So is this close to how you would stat these types of characters? And I really don't understand how to stat a ranged character, so I didn't even guess. As you can see I tend to prioritize dex on almost all builds, or at least split it with int.

[Lasty]

Spriggans can suddenly carry as much as Ogres for no reason.

But you know it's actually for a very good reason, right?

[duvessa]

STR - Enough to overcome EVP by 25% (so for evp 19, shoot for 24 or so str)
STR - Around the same as EVP for desired armour (so for evp 19, shoot for 19 or so str)

so uh, what's the reasoning behind choosing these breakpoints? because they're completely puzzling to me

[NessOnett]

I don't know the numbers, so correct me if I'm in error, but from what I have heard you will gain more evasion from merely improving your dex instead of trying to offset the armor penalty. As well as Dex usually adding more damage to "most" weapons when compared to strength.

I was always led to believe that (barring niche exceptions, one of which relates to weight capacity) you should prioritize Dex over Str on characters who ignore intelligence. And if that is no longer the case, I'd encourage someone with more knowledge to update the wiki to reflect that.

It's like people can't read or something. I said from the onset that I might be wrong. That I was merely basing this information on what I had heard from both the wiki and the community at large on several separate occasions. That Str was a nearly worthless stat. And given that this thread even exists in the first place gives evidence to that end that there is (mis)information surrounding this issue.

But even though I said from the start that this may be wrong, it was merely a very common perception among the community, some people feel a need to label me a troll because I have proven them wrong on so many dozens of things in so many other different threads. Wait, isn't there a forum rule against insults and personal attacks against other users? Hmmm...

[damiac]

STR - Enough to overcome EVP by 25% (so for evp 19, shoot for 24 or so str)
STR - Around the same as EVP for desired armour (so for evp 19, shoot for 19 or so str)

so uh, what's the reasoning behind choosing these breakpoints? because they're completely puzzling to me

As I said, I just went with what seems to work in my experience, then asked for other more experienced players to clarify. So if you feel my numbers are erroneous, feel free to state what you think they should be instead.

My reasoning was: STR up to EVP helps with spell success, and lowers EV penalty, while also giving a very small benefit to damage. On a character who doesn't care much about int, it seems to make sense to me to go a little above the EVP, there the returns aren't yet diminishing too much.

When the points need to also be distributed to int, then going just to EVP makes sense to me.

But like I said,

I'd like a few examples of characters, to get a handle on reasonable stat allocation. Obviously this is a case by case thing, but clearly statting can be generalized somewhat.
I'll list what I think is reasonable, then people with a better understanding can correct or refine what I've said.

I listed examples to get the ball rolling, because in my experience with this forum, asking for advice gets you something so general as to be useless. On the other hand, making a specific assertion will get people to come and correct that assertion, usually giving me much more usable and applicable advice.

[Klown]

[Sandman25]

My reasoning was: STR up to EVP helps with spell success, and lowers EV penalty, while also giving a very small benefit to damage. On a character who doesn't care much about int, it seems to make sense to me to go a little above the EVP, there the returns aren't yet diminishing too much.

The best way to pick one of Str/Dex for EV is to use wizmode. Also useful to compare Str/Int for spells failure. I do it regularly when not lazy, it's too complicated to calculate in head.

[duvessa]

It's like people can't read or something. I said from the onset that I might be wrong.

and then after I pointed out you were wrong, promptly asserted that you were definitely right

[TheDefiniteArticle]

I start by aiming for Str higher than encumbrance, and from there I just estimate on a case-by-case basis. Dudes who wanna dodge and cast spells will get more mileage out of Str than dudes who only wanna do one of those (I almost always pick Dex with Trog), and unlike Str, Int will increase your spellpower. Nowadays I've played with it enough that I can make accurate gut calls most of the time. I don't care about the mistakes anyway because 1 stat point makes little difference and the side bonuses of stats compensate a bit.

[tasonir]

It's like people can't read or something. I said from the onset that I might be wrong.

and then after I pointed out you were wrong, promptly asserted that you were definitely right

That's probably because your response didn't give any reason or explaination.

If by "most" you mean "none".

This doesn't explain how strength/dexterity weights work, and why they don't really apply. Because ness thinks that dex weighted weapons use primarily dex for damage (instead of at most an even split), he assumes you just don't know what strength weights are. If you explained "You mean none, because even on highly dex weighted weapons, they can only use at most half dex for damage" or similar, there wouldn't be any confusion.

Attempt at a full explaination - I do not promise this is free of errors, please correct any you notice:

Strength increases damage for all weapons. Dexterity increases the to hit. If a weapon has a 50% str/dex weight, then it will partially use the other stat to affect the number it usually doesn't effect. But this can only apply for up to half the effect. Your weights determine the other 50%. So if you have 30 str and 10 dex, on a 50/50 weighted weapon, then it will use 75% will be your 30 str, and 25% will be your 10 dex, for damage. Your damage would be affected by 22.5 str + 2.5 dex for 25 total stats. For accuracy, you would get 75% of 10 dex, and 25% of 30, for 15 stat power.

Generally, strength is always more important for damage, and dexterity is always more important for accuracy. At best/worst, they can tie, for blowguns/quickblades.

On a tangent, as crate mentioned above, the strength damage bonus is fairly reasonable now. People with a large difference in stats can notice quite a lot more damage. Single points aren't terribly noticeable, but roll a chei character sometime if you feel like playing around with stat differences. One thing I've noticed is that with chei stats, you can do quite reasonable melee with a decent base weapon and 0 skill. The damage/accuracy bonuses from stats give you good accuracy and respectable damage. Of course, watch out for the fact that you are still swinging at max delay, which is dangerous.

Edit: to be more specific, I mean a caster who is training magic skills finds something decent like a flail or trident, and can go through lair melee attacking single mobs to save effort/mana. Once your spells/defenses are reasonable you'll obviously want to train whatever melee attack you're going to be using for the later game.

[tasonir]

Also for ranged characters the advice was (emphasis: this is in the past) generally always str, both for carrying capacity and for more damage. In the old ranged combat you may have even needed strength to benefit from enchantment on your launcher.

I have no idea how that works in the new system.

When weight on ammo is removed, there may be more reason to train dex. I'm going to assume you still want primarily str, but dex is a slightly better alternative now. I can't say much for sure. I assume it's still fairly easy on a primarily ranged combat character to hit things with high skill and a well enchanted launcher, so you're mostly looking for more damage, which I have to imagine is still tied mostly to strength.

[Sar]

a caster who is training magic skills finds something decent like a flail or trident, and can go through lair melee attacking single mobs to save effort/mana

I regularly do it without cheistats.

[XuaXua]

Strength could help enhance non-unarmed melee weapon speed...

[damiac]

Yeah, no skill melee is what I usually do with casters, with a decent weapon, especially with some +, it does the trick against popcorn and such. If I'm still doing it at the bottom of lair I'll usually just start skilling whatever best weapon type i've found, even if my apts for it suck (Like M&F on my last HE, I just couldn't find a decent sword, and had a +4 flail of crushing, so... it was either train M&F and use that, or use the +0 unbranded great sword on the floor and train a lot of LB)

[tasonir]

a caster who is training magic skills finds something decent like a flail or trident, and can go through lair melee attacking single mobs to save effort/mana

I regularly do it without cheistats.

Certainly, I never said otherwise. Do it on chei and non-chei characters and the difference is due to your stats, which will give you a good feel for what difference they make.