Spider's Nest


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 15:27

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:This thread discussed many things. My wizmode tests had nothing to do with my preference to use pure casters, I don't see how it is relevant. Sorry for derailing the thread again.

I disagree. Your wizmode tests are constructed as they are because you're coming from a perspective of a "pure caster" player trying to demonstrate how futile melee against ghost moths is. If you were coming from a different perspective, you would have constructed different examples.

If you genuinely want the discussion to move forward, please engage productively with people with dissenting views instead of using rhetorical tricks and skewed information, and ignoring inconvenient responses.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 15:35

Re: Spider's Nest

Lasty, do you realize what 50% accuracy means? Here is an example from those tests, formatted differently this time, Haste and Might don't make the fight safe.

You feel you are being watched by something.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something hits you!
You feel clumsy.
Something hits you!
Something stings you but does no damage.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel yourself speed up.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you!
You feel weakened.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something misses you.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel very mighty all of a sudden.
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something. You burn something.
You barely miss something.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel dopey.
Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You completely miss something.
You hit something. You burn something
. Something barely misses you.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You miss something.
You hit something. You burn something.

You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something completely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You closely miss something.
Something closely misses you.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something completely misses you.
You barely miss something.
You barely miss something.

You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You barely miss something.
You barely miss something.

You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something completely misses you. Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You whack something! You burn something.
You barely miss something. Something hits you!
Die?

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 15:41

Re: Spider's Nest

Lasty wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:This thread discussed many things. My wizmode tests had nothing to do with my preference to use pure casters, I don't see how it is relevant. Sorry for derailing the thread again.

I disagree. Your wizmode tests are constructed as they are because you're coming from a perspective of a "pure caster" player trying to demonstrate how futile melee against ghost moths is. If you were coming from a different perspective, you would have constructed different examples.

If you genuinely want the discussion to move forward, please engage productively with people with dissenting views instead of using rhetorical tricks and skewed information, and ignoring inconvenient responses.


Typically I don't have +5 Demon Whip of Flaming, that's one of the best weapons (maybe poison is better vs Ghost Moths). Feel free to present your wizmode fights, it will be interesting to see how your supposedly caster looks.

Sorry if I Iook harsh, I am a bit tired to be offended with words "silly" and "absurd" when all I did was running a couple of wizmode tests, changing my actions based on feedback from other players. I guess it's a new way of saying "thank you for running the tests"

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 16:43

Re: Spider's Nest

Magipi wrote:I think the correct answer is something like this: "even if you have a good weapon and the skill to use it, be sure to buff yourself, because ghost moths are dangerous". Instead of that, however, came this: "I seriously cannot recall any character I've played who started with a book and did lots of casting that wouldn't be able to take a ghost moth 1 vs. 1 in melee by about level 15 or 16." And this came from And into, who is known from his wise advice. Something is pretty wrong here.


Actually what you call the correct answer is exactly what I said:

and into wrote:I seriously cannot recall any character I've played who started with a book and did lots of casting that wouldn't be able to take a ghost moth 1 vs. 1 in melee by about level 15 or 16. Some of them would have needed to use a consumable or two to make the fight completely safe, sure, but that's reasonable for one of the toughest monsters that appears in Spider, and is only likely to show up in the level 5 rune vault.


(Emphasis added.)

Now I shouldn't have said, "1 vs 1," I should have been clearer. By that I simply meant, "No other enemies around." I didn't mean you should not summon allies or the like to help you, or use a few wand blasts or whatever, as indeed I recommended as a viable tactic in a subsequent post (even if you sometimes have to be a bit creative to get most summons to attack invisible enemies).

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 17:05

Re: Spider's Nest

Ghost moths are nasty in that if you don't realize there's one draining your MP until they're on top of you, you're in big trouble. You won't run into an enemy that just shuts down spellcasting like that until you run into silent spectres, which is way, way later in the game.

If you know a ghost moth is there, and there's a jumping spider in LOS, what do you do, as a caster type? Maybe you can get 3 or 4 spells off before all your MP is gone, assuming you already have full MP. This is a reasonable scenario, where you've pulled one jumping spider to fight, but unknown to you, a ghost moth is also pulled. You find out about the ghost moth when your MP starts divebombing. Now what? You can't run until you kill the spider, you can't cast until the moth is dead, so you better hope you have some consumables and a decent melee weapon. A potion of invis is ideal.

That's all to say ghost moths are much more challenging to a book start than to a melee start. And at the stage of the game where you are getting the spider rune, ghost moths are not an easy opponent, even for a melee character. For mage types they are damn hard, and you're likely to have to face at least 3 or 4 of them in the process of getting the rune.

For people who actually play those types of characters, it's obvious that ghost moths are a challenging opponent for them. Sandman is right on the money, for a DE (yeah, people play them, it's hilarious that now DEs are 'niche characters') ghost moths are one of the toughest challenges you will face, assuming you're not speedrunning. Getting your MP drained with a bunch of fast monsters around is a really big problem.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 17:13

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:Lasty, do you realize what 50% accuracy means?

Obviously I do, and the dump you provide doesn't actually address any of the critiques I made about how you built your test character or executed the fight or chose or re-chose your criteria for "success" in the test.

Sandman25 wrote:Sorry if I Iook harsh, I am a bit tired to be offended with words "silly" and "absurd" when all I did was running a couple of wizmode tests, changing my actions based on feedback from other players. I guess it's a new way of saying "thank you for running the tests"

Ok, fair point: I did use words that are dismissive of your posts in this thread. I did it because I found it frustrating that I saw you (again) making arguments from a very limited perspective as though they were broadly applicable, and using rhetorical tricks and bad examples to push your point through even though the problems with your approach were pointed out multiple times. Still, no matter how I felt about it, I should not have gotten irritated and been insulting, because I can't know if you were offering those posts knowing that they were manipulative and incomplete or not.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 17:17

Re: Spider's Nest

ghost moths are much more challenging to a book start than to a melee start

yes DEFi has much easier time with them than MiCj

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 17:18

Re: Spider's Nest

damiac wrote:For people who actually play those types of characters, it's obvious that ghost moths are a challenging opponent for them. Sandman is right on the money, for a DE (yeah, people play them, it's hilarious that now DEs are 'niche characters') ghost moths are one of the toughest challenges you will face, assuming you're not speedrunning. Getting your MP drained with a bunch of fast monsters around is a really big problem.


Are you sure you know what niche means? Niche =/= not popular. I called DE a niche species because they are a niche species in the fact they have horrendous HP, bad physical aptitudes, and incredibly high magical aptitudes. What other species is anything close to how extreme a DE is in these regards? And, as has been proven throughout this thread, DE is a terrible example of how a 'caster' would deal with a Ghost Moth because they don't even attempt to reflect how the majority of species would be built at that specific point in the game.
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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 17:20

Re: Spider's Nest

Lasty,

You don't like/understand my words, I don't like/understand yours.
Could you please create a character for tests to clarify your position regarding casters in general and Ghost Moths in particular?

I have just looked into my online games, here is my DEVm who cleared Snake Pit at XL 15.

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Sandman25/m ... 032132.txt

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 17:23

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:
ghost moths are much more challenging to a book start than to a melee start

yes DEFi has much easier time with them than MiCj


Why?

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 17:37

Re: Spider's Nest

because DEFi is a ~melee start~ and MiCj is a ~book start~

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:07

Re: Spider's Nest

Abominae wrote:
damiac wrote:For people who actually play those types of characters, it's obvious that ghost moths are a challenging opponent for them. Sandman is right on the money, for a DE (yeah, people play them, it's hilarious that now DEs are 'niche characters') ghost moths are one of the toughest challenges you will face, assuming you're not speedrunning. Getting your MP drained with a bunch of fast monsters around is a really big problem.


Are you sure you know what niche means? Niche =/= not popular. I called DE a niche species because they are a niche species in the fact they have horrendous HP, bad physical aptitudes, and incredibly high magical aptitudes. What other species is anything close to how extreme a DE is in these regards? And, as has been proven throughout this thread, DE is a terrible example of how a 'caster' would deal with a Ghost Moth because they don't even attempt to reflect how the majority of species would be built at that specific point in the game.

So are you saying that DE's are not expected to be able to beat ghost moths?

A DE book start is the perfect example of a character who would have a tough time with ghost moths.

Perhaps your definition of 'caster' is what's niche. As in, most people building 'casters' are thinking 'DE Blaster' not 'Dr with some conjurations backup'.

Needing to quaff haste and might to stand a chance =/= easily win 1v1.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:10

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:Lasty,

You don't like/understand my words, I don't like/understand yours.
Could you please create a character for tests to clarify your position regarding casters in general and Ghost Moths in particular?

You've misunderstood me completely: I have no problem with your words. What I object to is the way you're trying to advance your argument. My impression is that you're not making valid arguments for your viewpoint and you're completely ignoring everyone who has tried to make an argument that doesn't advance your point. For example, you still haven't engaged with the substance of anything I wrote at all.

When I get a chance I will post a dump of a reasonable build of a book-background DE fighting three ghost moths (one at a time) when I get a chance if you'll agree that if that reasonable-looking character is able to repeatedly defeat a ghost moth you will agree that it's not unreasonable for book-background DEs to defeat ghost moths. If you don't agree to that, please let me know exactly what requirements you have from the character build in order to be convinced that it represents a reasonable example case.

Sandman25 wrote:I have just looked into my online games, here is my DEVm who cleared Snake Pit at XL 15.

I genuinely don't know why you're bringing this character up or what relevance it has to this thread.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:15

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:because DEFi is a ~melee start~ and MiCj is a ~book start~


Do you mean you are going to play MiCj as Cj? I expected the same approach as for TrCj who can choose to cast zero spells for the whole game.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:19

Re: Spider's Nest

Lasty wrote:I genuinely don't know why you're bringing this character up or what relevance it has to this thread.


Because some participants of the thread called XL 15 character underleveled for Spider 5.

Sorry, I am not clear what I should approve. A character which I don't even see?
As about my ignorance of your posts, you might want to reread the thread, there is a post where I described some obvious things which you missed.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:21

Re: Spider's Nest

damiac wrote:That's all to say ghost moths are much more challenging to a book start than to a melee start. And at the stage of the game where you are getting the spider rune, ghost moths are not an easy opponent, even for a melee character. For mage types they are damn hard
I strongly disagree with everything in this line

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:21

Re: Spider's Nest

damiac wrote:So are you saying that DE's are not expected to be able to beat ghost moths?


No, and I have no idea how you interpreted me as asserting this. However, I would expect DE's to beat Ghost Moths in a significantly different way than the majority of species would. I wonder why that is...

damiac wrote:A DE book start is the perfect example of a character who would have a tough time with ghost moths.


It is the species that is probably the absolute worst at handling a Ghost Moth 1v1 with melee and horrendous tactics, sure. Are you really trying to say it is an accurate representation of how the majority of species with a book start would preform? I wouldn't, and I wonder why that is...

damiac wrote:Perhaps your definition of 'caster' is what's niche. As in, most people building 'casters' are thinking 'DE Blaster' not 'Dr with some conjurations backup'.

Needing to quaff haste and might to stand a chance =/= easily win 1v1.


Wow, I wonder why people would view a DE caster as a "blaster" type character and a Dr caster as a more balanced type character. I just can't help but wonder why that is... I guess, I don't know... DE are in a niche position?
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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:24

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:
Lasty wrote:I genuinely don't know why you're bringing this character up or what relevance it has to this thread.


Because some participants of the thread called XL 15 character underleveled for Spider 5.

Sorry, I am not clear what I should approve. A character which I don't even see?
As about my ignorance of your posts, you might want to reread the thread, there is a post where I described some obvious things which you missed.


This is exactly what I mean when I say that I don't think you're arguing in good faith. You refuse to address anything in my posts, you hand-wave to earlier posts without saying which ones they are or what they address, and you refuse to make any verifiable claims.

Let me try to give you all the control over this: you want a dump from me, and implicitly you're asking because it would advance the discussion in some way. What requirements do you have from this dump before you will agree that it is a valid dump that proves that a DE book background can safely battle a ghost moth?

I'm asking because I have no interest in going to the trouble of creating a dump and then seeing you move the goalposts yet again. So, tell me exactly what you need this dump to be like before you'll acknowledge that it represents a counterexample to the argument you've been advancing.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:25

Re: Spider's Nest

duvessa wrote:
damiac wrote:That's all to say ghost moths are much more challenging to a book start than to a melee start. And at the stage of the game where you are getting the spider rune, ghost moths are not an easy opponent, even for a melee character. For mage types they are damn hard
I strongly disagree with everything in this line

I strongly disagree with your disagreement

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:36

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:Do you mean you are going to play MiCj as Cj?

What does that have to do with anything? It's a ~book start~, not ~pure caster skilling~, right?

I'm sorry if I sound anal, I just really dislike when people pile every possible, let's say, conjurer with Firestorm-rushing DEFEs (which are a possible and popular character type, yes, even if I don't enjoy such characters) and generalise them as such. I happen to enjoy playing a lot of ~book-starters~ - and by playing them I mean I learn at least some of the spells in that book, and, depending on the race, equipment and skill choices I made, I think most of them can survive a melee encounter with a ghost moth by the time they do Spider (and I usually do Spider first). Statements like "book starters have harder time than melee starters in that one area you typically go at level 16-17" are meaningless; if you wished so, not a trace of what your character starting class was can remain by that time - race matters, skills matter, starting class - not so much. Note that starting class does matter in early game, which is a very important part of the game - but Spider isn't early game by any stretch of imagination.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:45

Re: Spider's Nest

damiac wrote:For people who actually play those types of characters, it's obvious that ghost moths are a challenging opponent for them. Sandman is right on the money, for a DE (yeah, people play them, it's hilarious that now DEs are 'niche characters') ghost moths are one of the toughest challenges you will face, assuming you're not speedrunning. Getting your MP drained with a bunch of fast monsters around is a really big problem.


Yeah I've only ever played Be and don't know what I'm talking about. My only experience with DE is with DEBe, I don't actually play these types of characters at all. Also when I said that ghost moths are one of the most dangerous enemies in spider, and therefore one that you should readily use consumables to deal with (via escape or killing, but killing is almost always possible on a well built character if the ghost moth is isolated), I obviously didn't mean what I said and was just typing words randomly. [/sarcasm]

________

IDK, I feel like people are willfully misinterpreting a lot of what Lasty and I and others were saying, and personally I find that more offensive/annoying than having an example or specific point I was making in an argument called "silly," especially if those calling it silly explained, more or less rationally, why they thought so. But that's subjective I suppose and maybe it is just me.

Obviously if you get your MP drained with a bunch of fast monsters around that is a really big problem, the appropriate response to which is "flee." I must have missed where someone in this thread suggested otherwise.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:46

Re: Spider's Nest

So the conclusion I am reaching here is that if you have problems with ghost moths you're bad at the game.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:50

Re: Spider's Nest

That's correct.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:55

Re: Spider's Nest

dirtywick wrote:So the conclusion I am reaching here is that if you have problems with ghost moths you're bad at the game.


I wouldn't say that. It depends on what you mean by "problems." Ghost moths are dangerous for a lot of characters when you run into them in Spider, especially if you are lacking certain options and/or gear. I'm not saying you are bad at the game if you have some difficulties with the ghost moths in Spider:5; it is a rune vault and is designed to give you some trouble. However, they are not unfairly difficult, even for a very casting-centric character. If you find them overwhelmingly difficult or frustrating, yes, that would suggest to me that you are doing something that I would consider unreasonable, either in terms of strategy or tactics, or both.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 18:59

Re: Spider's Nest

Well, having problems with ghost moths doesn't make you bad, but any character who gets to Spider:5 at a reasonable time should be able to handle them, though it might take some effort and more than one try, and going to the relatively few places where those monsters appear means you should be prepared to handle them. The same can be said for just about any monster that's scary for the level it appears on (fire dragons in Lair:8, black mambas and death yaks in Lair in general, orc warlords in Orc:4, merfolk impalers on Shoals:5, greater nagas on Snake:5, etc., etc., etc.).

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:00

Re: Spider's Nest

Wow, this thread even made and_into sarcastic. That's impressive.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:06

Re: Spider's Nest

Lasty wrote:This is an absurd thread


Was it really needed? Talking about me unable to argue properly...

Sandman25 is arguing that their favored build for one of the least melee-capable classes, when built as a pure caster, can't beat a certain monster in melee, and they're choosing to use absurdly unrealistic examples to prove it, including bizarre features like:


Here you missed what I am trying to prove. "Every caster should be able to kill GM in melee" can be countered by a single example of a caster who is not supposed to do it. A single character suffices, nobody cares if it's average, majority or niche.
* One of the lowest-hp races


See comment above. Note, I could take a Fe or Fo, it would be even worse

* wielding a +4 flail


Here you missed that I had several examples with +5 Demon Whip of flaming. I am sure you replied before reading remaining posts in the thread.

* trained below minimum delay


Yes, it happens with casters, you know? If a "caster" has 10 Fighting, 15 Dodging and the best weapons at min delay (0.6 turn per attack is bad for you?) how is it different from a MfFi and alike?

* while underleveled


That's why I presented a morgue with character who cleared Snake 5 at XL 15.

* with awful defenses and hp


I wonder if you are serious here. 92 HP at XL 15, my DEVM got 98 HP at XL 16 in Snake 5.
That's why I asked you to present an example of your caster at XL 15.

* without activating buffs or using allies or tools


Here you missed several things:
1) A hasted DE died to GM
2) A hasted and mighted DE died to GM
3) A hasted and mighted DE (before first attack of GM) lost almost 50% HP to GM. With some worse luck it could be worse. 50% accuracy is not reliable, you can get 4 misses in a row eaily.
* without casting any spells before all mana is drained


That's the whole point. I am not going to argue that GM cannot be safely killed with Fireball, Poisonous Cloud, Toxic Radiance and alike. You were fighting some Jumping spider, spent most MP and then lost remaining MP before being able to realize where the GM is. Yes, it happens often. No, you don't have spell Haste and cannot just run away to restore MP, it would require a consumable because of speed 12 GM has.

* and then going on to fight wolf spiders and emperor scorpions immediately after (successfully!) killing the ghost moth.


Good players avoid fights where their HP bar can drop below 50%, especially if they are poisoned, lost some stats and cannot easily go upstairs. For "why they cannot escape to explored" see point above about speed 12. Also trap spiders are fun, especially with web traps which act as Mark.

This is one of the most elaborately terrible strawmen I've ever seen. You may as well be hypothesizing that you're a mummy surrounded by orbs of fire and wearing a cursed amulet of stasis.


This is one of the least friendly first post of a person in a discussion, of a person who missed the whole point of everything and still is insulting other players.

Sandman25, what you should be seeing here is that 1) you have troubles with ghost moths


Here you missed that I am not alone. People suggest buffing pretending it would help but it resulted in death. Why? Because of 50% accuracy

2) other people do not, and


Reread the thread. Also see http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/killers.html, last character who died to Ghost Moth was a Tr with 105 HP.

3) other people have suggestions for how you can build a character and use tactics such that you don't just lose to ghost moths.


Here you missed that I am not discussing other tools (gods, wands, evocables etc.), I am discussing melee only.
This should lead you to listen to 3) so that you can join the ranks of 2) instead of stubbornly insisting that your builds and tactics are implicitly just fine and yet they can't deal with a monster that, while dangerous, others can deal with safely.


Here you missed so much that I don't even know what to write. I don't remember a single death to ghost Moth but it does not mean that I killed all of them in melee.

skipping the rest of your post since it does nothing except bragging how great player you are.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:11

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:I am not going to argue that GM cannot be safely killed with Fireball, Poisonous Cloud, Toxic Radiance and alike.

Ghost moths are resistant to poison.
Last edited by Sar on Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:11

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Do you mean you are going to play MiCj as Cj?

What does that have to do with anything? It's a ~book start~, not ~pure caster skilling~, right?

I'm sorry if I sound anal, I just really dislike when people pile every possible, let's say, conjurer with Firestorm-rushing DEFEs (which are a possible and popular character type, yes, even if I don't enjoy such characters) and generalise them as such. I happen to enjoy playing a lot of ~book-starters~ - and by playing them I mean I learn at least some of the spells in that book, and, depending on the race, equipment and skill choices I made, I think most of them can survive a melee encounter with a ghost moth by the time they do Spider (and I usually do Spider first). Statements like "book starters have harder time than melee starters in that one area you typically go at level 16-17" are meaningless; if you wished so, not a trace of what your character starting class was can remain by that time - race matters, skills matter, starting class - not so much. Note that starting class does matter in early game, which is a very important part of the game - but Spider isn't early game by any stretch of imagination.


Exactly, that's why I don't understand how DEFi with -20% HP has easier time than MiCj with +10% HP

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:13

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I am not going to argue that GM cannot be safely killed with Fireball, Poisonous Cloud, Toxic Radiance and alike.

Ghost moth are resistant to poison.


Thanks, forgot about it. Poor casters :)

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:15

Re: Spider's Nest

I was just reacting ~*~humorously~*~ to the following quote:
Sandman25 wrote:ghost moths are much more challenging to a book start than to a melee start

This quote states that monsters named ghost moths are more challenging to a character that starts with a book. MiCj starts with a book, DEFi doesn't. Ergo, by that quote, DEFi should have easier time with ghost moths. But it probably won't. That is the joke.

I suck at jokes.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:20

Re: Spider's Nest

man it's so weird that at all points of recorded history there has always been someone of more or less relative skill at crawl who diametrically disagrees with you, and every single of those arguments eventually devolve into awful post-dissecting until all words lose meaning and indeed everyone involved loses all interest in whatever faint hint of a conversation may be left.
man those guys must be such jerks.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:20

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:I was just reacting ~*~humorously~*~ to the following quote:
Sandman25 wrote:ghost moths are much more challenging to a book start than to a melee start

This quote states that monsters named ghost moths are more challenging to a character that starts with a book. MiCj starts with a book, DEFi doesn't. Ergo, by that quote, DEFi should have easier time with ghost moths. But it probably won't. That is the joke.

I suck at jokes.


Oh, I see. I didn't realize it was a joke, my typical problem :(

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:22

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:last character who died to Ghost Moth was a Tr with 105 HP

Quite an amusing morgue actually, dude met it at L:1 being and XL 10 Troll (my bet is unlucky polymorph) and got predictably wrecked by that thing (but if he'd started teleporting earlier and maybe activated Hero he'd proably be okay).

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:24

Re: Spider's Nest

dck wrote:man it's so weird that at all points of recorded history there has always been someone of more or less relative skill at crawl who diametrically disagrees with you, and every single of those arguments eventually devolve into awful post-dissecting until all words lose meaning and indeed everyone involved loses all interest in whatever faint hint of a conversation may be left.
man those guys must be such jerks.


I don't see where "diametrically" is. But yes, I agree, I have a pretty bad reputation here. Sometimes it's even funny when a player has choice between concurring with Sandman25 and ignoring fsim and alike and chooses the latter.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:26

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:last character who died to Ghost Moth was a Tr with 105 HP

Quite an amusing morgue actually, dude met it at L:1 being and XL 10 Troll (my bet is unlucky polymorph) and got predictably wrecked by that thing (but if he'd started teleporting earlier and maybe activated Hero he'd proably be okay).


Yes, very unusual. But was it a weak character? More HP than DE from my wiztests, comparable melee damage output, regeneration... Not hasted though.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:30

Re: Spider's Nest

I'm fairly sure even a DE braving his first Lair branch can do better than 6/14, but then again, I am no DE expert.

Edit: btw if I were some kinda EV-based master blaster braving Spider, I would be probably more afraid of jumping spiders - common, blink, halve your EV. Pretty scary stuff.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:35

Re: Spider's Nest

See, here's the thing.

If someone posted a CiP with a level 15 *atheist* DE with 98 HP, 11 AC, 23 EV 0 SH, and 10 skill in fighting, 10 skill in M&F (even with a good weapon like demon whip of flaming), and really random/crazy skill training (e.g., 16 stealth on a lvl 15 conjurations-centric character), and no rPois and no SInv, and asked, "Hey, am I ready to take on Spider:5 rune vault?" I would advise them otherwise, if there were any less dangerous areas of the game still unexplored. And really it is unlikely that a DE would only be level 15 00% by spider:5, unless they hadn't fully explored Lair/Orc/Dungeon yet.

For the record, I said that I cannot recall any casters that I've played who were unable to take out an isolated ghost moth by level 15. This statement is not disproven by going into wizmode and magicking up a random level 15 character with silly skill training and then mashing a directional key against a ghost moth.

With reasonable consumables and item drops over the course of a game, even a terribly built character like that could probably take on Ghost Moths without MP, you'd just have to be careful and use good tactics. Use some wand blasts as the ghost moth closes in, if you got a read on its position. Use ?summoning and the like. If you get badly poisoned while fighitng it, take a turn to quaff !curing. If you think the dude is near death but you are getting low on HP, quaff a !heal wounds so that you can take it out. Be willing to use !might, agility, haste, or even !berserk if appropriate. And if the bastard gets some lucky shots in, use other consumables to escape.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:39

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:Sometimes it's even funny when a player has choice between concurring with Sandman25 and ignoring fsim and alike and chooses the latter.

That could be because fsim often doesn't mean squat.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:48

Re: Spider's Nest

Thinking in terms of "you either agree with me or disagree with FSIM" is not really conducive to conversation.

Even then I don't know what it would mean to "disagree" with fsim. I'm not aware of any argument that fsim has ever made. It just gives you a read out of damages based on a particular scenario that you set up, assuming the player is doing nothing more than hitting and being hit.* fsim is pretty good (some bugs unfortunately but otherwise good) at letting you compare average damage between two weapons, or how much average damage mitigation you'd get from one set up compared to another, vs. a particular enemy. It isn't useful for—and (AFAIK) wasn't really intended for—anything much beyond that, though.

*Incidentally, "doing nothing more than hitting and being hit" is very bad play against a non-trivial opponent.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:53

Re: Spider's Nest

dck wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Sometimes it's even funny when a player has choice between concurring with Sandman25 and ignoring fsim and alike and chooses the latter.

That could be because fsim often doesn't mean squat.


Thank you for clarifying meaning of the word via PM.
Yes, 50% accuracy is "squat" for some, I guess they have never got 3 miscasts in a row for 1% failure rate spell. I have had similar discussions years ago (not about crawl of course), those discussions showed me that some people don't understand how probabilities work and I am very unlikely to change anything so I will shut up.

and into,
50% accuracy. It basically means you should not melee the monster unless you have no choice
Last edited by Sandman25 on Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:55

Re: Spider's Nest

50% accuracy? IIRC monster invis is something like -5 to your melee accuracy, no?

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:56

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:50% accuracy? IIRC monster invis is something like -5 to your melee accuracy, no?


See 9th post on first page.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:56

Re: Spider's Nest

no sar you're not looking at the big imaginary picture being painted here, where you fight a gmoth with a toothpick and negative tooth picking skill and fighting.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:58

Re: Spider's Nest

On the plus side of this thread, I didn't know going invis would protect me from ghost moth mana drain before this, and I made ample use of it in my last game.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 19:59

Re: Spider's Nest

dck wrote:no sar you're not looking at the big imaginary picture being painted here, where you fight a gmoth with a toothpick and negative tooth picking skill and fighting.


Yes, I am sure +1 from +4 Demon Whip which player does not even have will increase the accuracy to 99%.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:00

Re: Spider's Nest

You mean the one where you attacked it with a flail?

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:02

Re: Spider's Nest

Somehow I think this thread would be much less combative if participants could just spectate each other going at ghost moths with different characters.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:02

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:Here you missed what I am trying to prove. "Every caster should be able to kill GM in melee" can be countered by a single example of a caster who is not supposed to do it. A single character suffices, nobody cares if it's average, majority or niche.

If this is genuinely what you're trying to prove then you're making a point that is uncontentious because it has no content. Of course it's possible for a badly-built caster who will not run to lose in a melee fight with a ghost moth; it's also possible for a badly-built healer to die in Lair. If this genuinely is your actual point, then there's no reason to try to make it, because it's essentially a non-statement.

I assumed your argument was something with content, like "some reasonably-built characters have an unreasonably hard time killing ghost moths even when they are played well." I'm going to continue my response as if you're arguing for that latter argument, since otherwise there's really no meaning to any of this.

Sandman25 wrote:Here you missed that I had several examples with +5 Demon Whip of flaming. I am sure you replied before reading remaining posts in the thread.

I didn't miss it. I saw that you added it only after people pointed out how unreasonable your first example was. I mention the most unreasonable version because you did offer it, and offering it was not reasonable.

Sandman25 wrote:
* trained below minimum delay

Yes, it happens with casters, you know? If a "caster" has 10 Fighting, 15 Dodging and the best weapons at min delay (0.6 turn per attack is bad for you?) how is it different from a MfFi and alike?

If your argument is "training weapons to min delay makes you a MfFi so I don't do it," you're starting from premises that no reasonable player adopts. You might as well say you don't use blink scrolls because then you might as well be a warper. Do all characters need to train to min delay? Not necessarily, but if their plan for handling ghost moths is melee, then they absolutely should.

Sandman25 wrote:
* while underleveled
That's why I presented a morgue with character who cleared Snake 5 at XL 15.

Did you know that there are morgues of players who have cleared swamp at XL12? Of course Swamp isn't Snake. And Snake isn't Spider. And one example isn't a representative sample.

Sandman25 wrote:
* with awful defenses and hp

I wonder if you are serious here. 92 HP at XL 15, my DEVM got 98 HP at XL 16 in Snake 5.
That's why I asked you to present an example of your caster at XL 15.
If you think 92 hp, 11 AC, and 23 EV and no rPois is an adequate level of defense for Spider:5, I can see why you have trouble.

Sandman25 wrote:
* without activating buffs or using allies or tools

Here you missed several things:
1) A hasted DE died to GM
2) A hasted and mighted DE died to GM
3) A hasted and mighted DE (before first attack of GM) lost almost 50% HP to GM. With some worse luck it could be worse. 50% accuracy is not reliable, you can get 4 misses in a row eaily.

I didn't miss those at all. Again, your initial offering skipped haste and might, and that is worth noting: you considered the no might, no haste example to be a reasonable piece of evidence initially. None of them tried agility or any charms or !resistance. None of them tried healing or wands or evokers. None of them used fog or water. All of them are using a build that has all the other problems I described. Despite all these handicaps one of them won the fight at > 50% health. When it did, you immediately said that wasn't good enough because it has to fight a second ghost moth without resting. Heck, the time you drank haste/might and died, you even drank might while at hp warning levels and standing next to the moth and letting it smash you. That's obviously not necessary.

Sandman25 wrote:
* without casting any spells before all mana is drained


That's the whole point. I am not going to argue that GM cannot be safely killed with Fireball, Poisonous Cloud, Toxic Radiance and alike. You were fighting some Jumping spider, spent most MP and then lost remaining MP before being able to realize where the GM is. Yes, it happens often. No, you don't have spell Haste and cannot just run away to restore MP, it would require a consumable because of speed 12 GM has.

You're allowed to use consumables to battle/escape from things that are strong. You don't even need to use !haste -- there are things like !invis, ?blink and ?tele, for example. If the battle is on bad terms, you should leave, whether the opponent is a ghost moth or a gecko.

Sandman25 wrote:
* and then going on to fight wolf spiders and emperor scorpions immediately after (successfully!) killing the ghost moth.

Good players avoid fights where their HP bar can drop below 50%, especially if they are poisoned, lost some stats and cannot easily go upstairs. For "why they cannot escape to explored" see point above about speed 12. Also trap spiders are fun, especially with web traps which act as Mark.

Well then you should be excited that your wizmode test had > 50% health, even considering its incredible shortcomings. Do you really want to argue that ghost moths are unreasonable because they can take a DE built to be bad at melee with no poison resistance to a little over 50% health in melee?

Sandman25 wrote:
This is one of the most elaborately terrible strawmen I've ever seen. You may as well be hypothesizing that you're a mummy surrounded by orbs of fire and wearing a cursed amulet of stasis.
This is one of the least friendly first post of a person in a discussion, of a person who missed the whole point of everything and still is insulting other players.

It's only unfriendly if it's inaccurate, and I don't think that it is. Also, I've never heard a rule that the first post in each thread needs to be more friendly than subsequent ones.

I want to be clear about this: I am not insulting you. I am making factual claims about your argumentation. There's a difference between criticizing what you've said and criticizing you as a person. I would be insulting you if I told you that you're a jerk or that you're terrible at crawl or that you smell bad, but I'm not insulting you if I tell you that you've made a strawman argument. I am make a claim about your argumentation which you are free to refute. It's inherently neither friendly nor unfriendly, it's engaging in argumentation about the claims you are making. It's true that my overall tone was not friendly, and that reflects the fact that I am frustrated with you. Tone-policing can be an effective way to derail argumentation, but it is rarely useful within argumentation that's still on-track.

Sandman25 wrote:
2) other people do not, and


Reread the thread. Also see http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/killers.html, last character who died to Ghost Moth was a Tr with 105 HP.

Could you please indicate the post in which I argued that it's impossible to be killed by a ghost moth?

Sandman25 wrote:Here you missed that I am not discussing other tools (gods, wands, evocables etc.), I am discussing melee only.

But why are you doing that? No sensible player would limit themselves to melee only if they have other options that would help, and most players will have other options that will help by Spider:5.

Sandman25 wrote:Here you missed so much that I don't even know what to write. I don't remember a single death to ghost Moth but it does not mean that I killed all of them in melee.

And that's considering that you prefer what you describe as "pure casters". Seems like a pretty solid argument that there's nothing wrong with ghost moths to me.

Sandman25 wrote:skipping the rest of your post since it does nothing except bragging how great player you are.

That really misses the point. I was actually pointing out that I can be a very careless player and still beat ghost moths with conjurations-heavy characters, and I'm bringing it up not to embarrass myself with how careless I can be, but instead to point out that you can make a lot of mistakes and still beat up ghost moths, even with characters whose primary offense is attacked by ghost moths.

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:03

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:You mean the one where you attacked it with a flail?


Do you know difference for accuracy between +4 Demon Whip and +4 Flail? It's +1.

PS. That's what I was talking about. My reputation makes even good players behave stupid. Unless it is a joke which I don't get again
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