Spider's Nest


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:05

Re: Spider's Nest

Well actually I don't, but at least dwhip does some damage when it lands, and is a faster weapons so you get more attempts.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:10

Re: Spider's Nest

Lasty wrote:But why are you doing that?


Because as I wrote in my first post, we had a very long thread about meleeing GM some time ago.
You assumed something else but some of those assumptions do not apply to my posts and now we have this small misunderstanding.
Thank you for the discussion.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:11

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25: this is not at all about your reputation. When you make good posts that deserve thanks, I thank you, and it has happened. However, when you make posts full of specious logic to support a dubious argument, I argue against you. I really don't know how to make this more clear, but this is not at all about who you are as a person or what I think of you, it's only about what you're saying at any one moment. If you want your "reputation" to improve, please just try to make solid arguments using evidence that other participants in the discussion could conceivably accept as valid.

Just pointing to fsim is not usually helpful, both because fsim is not always a reliable simulation of real situations, and because almost everything about the character and monster being put into fsim needs to be considered and calibrated to get a meaningful result, and all of those factors need to be reported in order for the resulting data to mean anything to anyone else.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Sar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:13

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:
Lasty wrote:But why are you doing that?


Because as I wrote in my first post, we had a very long thread about meleeing GM some time ago.
You assumed something else but some of those assumptions do not apply to my posts and now we have this small misunderstanding.
Thank you for the discussion.


Ok, at this point, I just need to add Sandman25 to my foes list. To be clear, I do not consider them to be an foe, but I do see that there is no point in attempting to actually communicate with them.

Edit: Sandman25, I'm really disappointed by all of this. Based on the PM exchange we had a few weeks back, I really thought you were interested in trying to argue in good faith.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks:
duvessa

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:26

Re: Spider's Nest

awkward

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:28

Re: Spider's Nest

Lasty wrote:Just pointing to fsim is not usually helpful, both because fsim is not always a reliable simulation of real situations, and because almost everything about the character and monster being put into fsim needs to be considered and calibrated to get a meaningful result, and all of those factors need to be reported in order for the resulting data to mean anything to anyone else.


I put DE in fsim, put DE in wiz fights, tried to create reasonable skills for caster (Fighting/Armour/Dodging/Weapon) who melees a monster, you made laugh of it, I asked you twice for your version of XL 15 DE and got nothing. I don't feel happy to be in your foes list but it's your choice.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 20:30

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:Well actually I don't, but at least dwhip does some damage when it lands, and is a faster weapons so you get more attempts.


Increased speed does not make the fight safe when you have 50% accuracy. You can be interested to see a fight in "I love when..." topic, I stayed at 1 HP during 10 turns with crappy defenses. 50% accuracy makes fighting a bad option unless your defenses are really great and you don't care about turns. It is not the case for DE vs GM.
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Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:12

Re: Spider's Nest

you can kill a ghost moth OK with an XL 16-17 DE. i just built one in wizmode with like 12 fighting, 15 dodging, 12 staves, 11 fire/conj, 7 sc, he had about 15/22 and a +0 laj of slicing and was able to kill a ghost moth in melee with buffs, assuming no invis, sinv, etc. i could probably fit more fire/conj in but i wanted to avoid overestimating.

all this thread is saying is that a DE with no melee skill at all may struggle to kill ghost moths which isn't really saying much. obviously a character without melee skill is considered suboptimal so naturally it may have issues that a "proper" character like one enumerated above may not have. yet people continue to argue semantics over the definition of "caster".

tl;dr I think the game is designed s.t. when attempting to approximate optimality, a character that is not built with emphasis on melee first is built wrongly and will have different considerations in combat. how you feel about this design direction is up to you, but it is what it is.
remove food

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and into, Arrhythmia

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:28

Re: Spider's Nest

Guys, don't you see what's happening here? The ghost moths are turning us against each other.

Let's not forget who the true enemy is here.

For this message the author WalkerBoh has received thanks: 5
Arrhythmia, dck, Hopeless, Lasty, Sar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8784

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:29

Re: Spider's Nest

tabstorm wrote:all this thread is saying is that a DE with no melee skill at all
and no spells
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

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Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:30

Re: Spider's Nest

duvessa wrote:
tabstorm wrote:all this thread is saying is that a DE with no melee skill at all
and no spells

Let us assume that our MP has been drained fully before damaging the enemy in any way
remove food

dck

Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:35

Re: Spider's Nest

never forget that greater ghost moths exist.

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Arrhythmia, duvessa, gammafunk

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:36

Re: Spider's Nest

fr: ghost dragons

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:37

Re: Spider's Nest

I repeated the tests. Quaffed a potion of haste/might before the fight, potion of curing at 49 HP. Won with 40/112 HP.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-658-g449be1d (tiles) character file.

DEFE the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Venom Mage)          Turns: 1929, Time: 00:16:06

HP  40/112       AC 15     Str  9 (10) XL: 18   Next:  1%
MP  22/42        EV 22     Int 22 (23) God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  1 memorised, 49 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     c - +0 lajatang (slice)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +2 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     e - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     d - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     f - +1 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     o - +2 pair of boots
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    (no ring)
                                (no ring)

@: mighty, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick, somewhat resistant to
hostile enchantments, very stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - a +0,+0 lajatang of slicing (weapon)
 g - a +4,+4 flail
 k - a +5,+5 demon whip of flaming
Armour
 a - a +2 robe (worn)
 d - a +2 cloak (worn)
 e - a +2 helmet (worn)
 f - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 o - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
Jewellery
 j - an uncursed ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}
 n - a square zirconium amulet
Potions
 h - 7 potions of restore abilities
 i - 7 potions of curing
 l - 7 potions of haste
 m - 8 potions of might
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Sting                             Conjuration/Poison           1
   Cure Poison                        Poison                       2
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   Olgreb's Toxic Radiance            Poison                       4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5


   Skills:
 - Level 12.0 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 12.0 Staves
 + Level 15.0 Dodging
 + Level 16.8 Stealth
 + Level 16.9 Spellcasting
 + Level 14.9 Poison Magic


You have 49 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
z - Sting                 Conj/Pois      25 (25)      1%          1    0


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

f - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
You finish taking off your +2 robe.
You finish putting on your +2 robe.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel yourself speed up.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel very mighty all of a sudden.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
A ghost moth comes into view.
You remove your ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}.
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention!
Something hits you.
You feel dopey.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something misses you. Something closely misses you.
Damage: -5%(-6hp)   hp: 95%(106hp)
You slash something!
You barely miss something. Something hits you! Something closely misses you.
Something closely misses you.
Damage: -9%(-10hp)   hp: 86%(96hp)
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you! Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -8%(-9hp)   hp: 78%(87hp)
You slash something!
You barely miss something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel weakened.
Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -12%(-14hp)   hp: 66%(73hp)
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something closely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You are poisoned.
Something poisons you!
Damage: -6%(-6hp)   hp: 60%(67hp)
You miss something.
You feel very sick.
Damage: -2%(-3hp)   hp: 58%(64hp)
You completely miss something. You feel sick.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -5%(-5hp)   hp: 53%(59hp)
You miss something. You feel sick. Something misses you. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something barely misses you.
Damage: -3%(-3hp)   hp: 50%(56hp)
You barely miss something. You feel sick.
Damage: -0%(-1hp)   hp: 50%(55hp)
You slash something!
You feel very sick.
Something closely misses you. x2
Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -5%(-5hp)   hp: 45%(50hp)
You miss something. You feel sick.
Damage: -1%(-1hp)   hp: 44%(49hp)
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel better. Something closely misses you. Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Huge Dmg: -10%(-12hp) hp: 41%(45hp)
You hit something. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something barely misses you. Something closely misses you.
Damage: -5%(-5hp)   hp: 36%(40hp)
You closely miss something.
You slice something!!
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced.
Saving game... please wait.

    ##############
    #............#
    #.........##.#
    #.........##.######
    #.........##.......
    #...###...##.######
    #..##.##..##.#
    #..#...#..##.#
    #..)@<.+..##.#
    #..#...#..##.######
    #..##.##...........
    #...###...##.######
#####.........##.######
#......................
#.##...................
#.######.#####.........
#.#    #.#   #.........


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  4 ghost moths (D:1)
  A hobgoblin (D:1)
  A ghost (D:1)
6 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | DEFE, the Deep Elf Venom Mage, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
     0 | D:1      | Entered wizard mode.
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 16 in Stealth
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 5/23
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/25
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/27
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 5/29
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 5/31
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 5/32
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 5/33
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 5/34
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/54 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/59 MP: 5/37
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/63 MP: 5/38
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 14. HP: 68/68 MP: 5/39
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 15. HP: 72/72 MP: 5/40
   113 | D:1      | Lost strength.
   113 | D:1      | Lost dexterity.
   113 | D:1      | Lost intelligence.
   121 | D:1      | HP: 2/92 [poisoned by a ghost moth]
   122 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             ... while paralysed
             
   124 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   124 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
   126 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   402 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:46 current:45
   598 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:26 current:45
   601 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:12 current:20
   603 | D:1      | HP: 3/92 [something (5)]
   604 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:8 current:3
   604 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
  1092 | D:1      | Slain by a ghost moth (16 damage)
             
  1257 | D:1      | Mangled by a ghost moth (15 damage)
             
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 16. HP: 56/97 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 17. HP: 58/102 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 18. HP: 60/107 MP: 6/42


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |       |       |       |       |116015 |       ||116015
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |112066 |       ||112066
       Lajatang          |       |       |       |       |       |    20 ||    20
  Use: Potion            |       |       |       |       |    15 |     4 ||    19
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1

Vault maps used:
D:1:      dpeg_arrival_shelter, minmay_misc_feat_secret_circle


Then tried again the same fight.
Might/Haste before fight, quaffed a potion of curing at red posion and am about to die despite no poison. Unlucky rolls.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-658-g449be1d (tiles) character file.

DEFE the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Venom Mage)          Turns: 2346, Time: 00:17:49

HP   7/112       AC 15     Str  9 (10) XL: 18   Next:  1%
MP   1/42        EV 21     Int 23      God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 13 (15) Spells:  1 memorised, 49 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     c - +0 lajatang (slice)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +2 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     e - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     d - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     f - +1 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     o - +2 pair of boots
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    (no ring)
                                (no ring)

@: mighty, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick, somewhat resistant to
hostile enchantments, very stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - a +0,+0 lajatang of slicing (weapon)
 g - a +4,+4 flail
 k - a +5,+5 demon whip of flaming
Armour
 a - a +2 robe (worn)
 d - a +2 cloak (worn)
 e - a +2 helmet (worn)
 f - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 o - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
Comestibles
 p - 11 bread rations
Jewellery
 j - an uncursed ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}
 n - a square zirconium amulet
Potions
 h - 6 potions of restore abilities
 i - 6 potions of curing
 l - 6 potions of haste
 m - 7 potions of might
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Sting                             Conjuration/Poison           1
   Cure Poison                        Poison                       2
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   Olgreb's Toxic Radiance            Poison                       4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5


   Skills:
 - Level 12.0 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 12.0 Staves
 + Level 15.0 Dodging
 + Level 16.8 Stealth
 + Level 16.9 Spellcasting
 + Level 14.9 Poison Magic


You have 49 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
z - Sting                 Conj/Pois      25 (25)      1%          1    0


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something barely misses you.
You hit something.
You barely miss something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel clumsy.
Something closely misses you.
Huge Dmg: -16%(-18hp) hp: 39%(43hp)
You slash something! Something hits you but does no damage.
Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You slice something!! Something hits you but does no damage.
Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You barely miss something.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something closely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -6%(-7hp)   hp: 34%(37hp)
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -2%(-2hp)   hp: 32%(35hp)
You hit something.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Something misses you.
You closely miss something.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something misses you.
Something barely misses you.
You hit something but do no damage.
You barely miss something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something misses you.
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something barely misses you. x2
Something closely misses you.
You closely miss something.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel weakened.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -1%(-1hp)   hp: 33%(36hp)
You barely miss something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something barely misses you. x2
You closely miss something.
You hit something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something barely misses you. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -1%(-1hp)   hp: 32%(35hp)
You miss something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something barely misses you. Something stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -7%(-7hp)   hp: 25%(28hp)
You closely miss something.
You slice something!!
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Huge Dmg: -6%(-7hp) hp: 20%(22hp)
You slash something!
You miss something. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
Mandatory exit. Think how to survive! ; Huge Dmg: -13%(-15hp) hp: 7%(7hp)
Save game and exit?

    ##############
    #............#
    #.........##.#
    #.........##.######
    #.........##.......
    #...###...##.######
    #..##.##..##.#
    #..#...#..##.#
    #..[@{.+..##.#
    #..#...#..##.######
    #..##.##...........
    #...###...##.######
#####.........##.######
#......................
#.##...................
#.######.#####.........
#.#    #.#   #.........


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  4 ghost moths (D:1)
  A hobgoblin (D:1)
  A ghost (D:1)
6 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | DEFE, the Deep Elf Venom Mage, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
     0 | D:1      | Entered wizard mode.
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 16 in Stealth
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 5/23
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/25
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/27
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 5/29
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 5/31
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 5/32
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 5/33
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 5/34
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/54 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/59 MP: 5/37
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/63 MP: 5/38
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 14. HP: 68/68 MP: 5/39
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 15. HP: 72/72 MP: 5/40
   113 | D:1      | Lost strength.
   113 | D:1      | Lost dexterity.
   113 | D:1      | Lost intelligence.
   121 | D:1      | HP: 2/92 [poisoned by a ghost moth]
   122 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             ... while paralysed
             
   124 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   124 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
   126 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   402 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:46 current:45
   598 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:26 current:45
   601 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:12 current:20
   603 | D:1      | HP: 3/92 [something (5)]
   604 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:8 current:3
   604 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
  1092 | D:1      | Slain by a ghost moth (16 damage)
             
  1257 | D:1      | Mangled by a ghost moth (15 damage)
             
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 16. HP: 56/97 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 17. HP: 58/102 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 18. HP: 60/107 MP: 6/42
  2346 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:15 current:7


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |       |       |       |       |116015 |       ||116015
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |112066 |       ||112066
       Lajatang          |       |       |       |       |       |    54 ||    54
  Use: Potion            |       |       |       |       |    15 |     8 ||    23
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1

Vault maps used:
D:1:      dpeg_arrival_shelter, minmay_misc_feat_secret_circle

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2222

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:38

Re: Spider's Nest

dck wrote:never forget that greater ghost moths exist.


I don't get it.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:40

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:I repeated the tests. Quaffed a potion of haste/might before the fight, potion of curing at 49 HP. Won with 40/112 HP.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-658-g449be1d (tiles) character file.

DEFE the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Venom Mage)          Turns: 1929, Time: 00:16:06

HP  40/112       AC 15     Str  9 (10) XL: 18   Next:  1%
MP  22/42        EV 22     Int 22 (23) God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  1 memorised, 49 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     c - +0 lajatang (slice)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +2 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     e - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     d - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     f - +1 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     o - +2 pair of boots
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    (no ring)
                                (no ring)

@: mighty, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick, somewhat resistant to
hostile enchantments, very stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - a +0,+0 lajatang of slicing (weapon)
 g - a +4,+4 flail
 k - a +5,+5 demon whip of flaming
Armour
 a - a +2 robe (worn)
 d - a +2 cloak (worn)
 e - a +2 helmet (worn)
 f - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 o - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
Jewellery
 j - an uncursed ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}
 n - a square zirconium amulet
Potions
 h - 7 potions of restore abilities
 i - 7 potions of curing
 l - 7 potions of haste
 m - 8 potions of might
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Sting                             Conjuration/Poison           1
   Cure Poison                        Poison                       2
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   Olgreb's Toxic Radiance            Poison                       4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5


   Skills:
 - Level 12.0 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 12.0 Staves
 + Level 15.0 Dodging
 + Level 16.8 Stealth
 + Level 16.9 Spellcasting
 + Level 14.9 Poison Magic


You have 49 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
z - Sting                 Conj/Pois      25 (25)      1%          1    0


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

f - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
You finish taking off your +2 robe.
You finish putting on your +2 robe.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel yourself speed up.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel very mighty all of a sudden.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
A ghost moth comes into view.
You remove your ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}.
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention!
Something hits you.
You feel dopey.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something misses you. Something closely misses you.
Damage: -5%(-6hp)   hp: 95%(106hp)
You slash something!
You barely miss something. Something hits you! Something closely misses you.
Something closely misses you.
Damage: -9%(-10hp)   hp: 86%(96hp)
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you! Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -8%(-9hp)   hp: 78%(87hp)
You slash something!
You barely miss something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel weakened.
Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -12%(-14hp)   hp: 66%(73hp)
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something closely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You are poisoned.
Something poisons you!
Damage: -6%(-6hp)   hp: 60%(67hp)
You miss something.
You feel very sick.
Damage: -2%(-3hp)   hp: 58%(64hp)
You completely miss something. You feel sick.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -5%(-5hp)   hp: 53%(59hp)
You miss something. You feel sick. Something misses you. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something barely misses you.
Damage: -3%(-3hp)   hp: 50%(56hp)
You barely miss something. You feel sick.
Damage: -0%(-1hp)   hp: 50%(55hp)
You slash something!
You feel very sick.
Something closely misses you. x2
Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -5%(-5hp)   hp: 45%(50hp)
You miss something. You feel sick.
Damage: -1%(-1hp)   hp: 44%(49hp)
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel better. Something closely misses you. Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Huge Dmg: -10%(-12hp) hp: 41%(45hp)
You hit something. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something barely misses you. Something closely misses you.
Damage: -5%(-5hp)   hp: 36%(40hp)
You closely miss something.
You slice something!!
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced.
Saving game... please wait.

    ##############
    #............#
    #.........##.#
    #.........##.######
    #.........##.......
    #...###...##.######
    #..##.##..##.#
    #..#...#..##.#
    #..)@<.+..##.#
    #..#...#..##.######
    #..##.##...........
    #...###...##.######
#####.........##.######
#......................
#.##...................
#.######.#####.........
#.#    #.#   #.........


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  4 ghost moths (D:1)
  A hobgoblin (D:1)
  A ghost (D:1)
6 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | DEFE, the Deep Elf Venom Mage, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
     0 | D:1      | Entered wizard mode.
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 16 in Stealth
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 5/23
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/25
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/27
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 5/29
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 5/31
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 5/32
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 5/33
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 5/34
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/54 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/59 MP: 5/37
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/63 MP: 5/38
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 14. HP: 68/68 MP: 5/39
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 15. HP: 72/72 MP: 5/40
   113 | D:1      | Lost strength.
   113 | D:1      | Lost dexterity.
   113 | D:1      | Lost intelligence.
   121 | D:1      | HP: 2/92 [poisoned by a ghost moth]
   122 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             ... while paralysed
             
   124 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   124 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
   126 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   402 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:46 current:45
   598 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:26 current:45
   601 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:12 current:20
   603 | D:1      | HP: 3/92 [something (5)]
   604 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:8 current:3
   604 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
  1092 | D:1      | Slain by a ghost moth (16 damage)
             
  1257 | D:1      | Mangled by a ghost moth (15 damage)
             
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 16. HP: 56/97 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 17. HP: 58/102 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 18. HP: 60/107 MP: 6/42


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |       |       |       |       |116015 |       ||116015
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |112066 |       ||112066
       Lajatang          |       |       |       |       |       |    20 ||    20
  Use: Potion            |       |       |       |       |    15 |     4 ||    19
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1

Vault maps used:
D:1:      dpeg_arrival_shelter, minmay_misc_feat_secret_circle


Then tried again the same fight.
Might/Haste before fight, quaffed a potion of curing at red posion and am about to die despite no poison. Unlucky rolls.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-658-g449be1d (tiles) character file.

DEFE the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Venom Mage)          Turns: 2346, Time: 00:17:49

HP   7/112       AC 15     Str  9 (10) XL: 18   Next:  1%
MP   1/42        EV 21     Int 23      God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 13 (15) Spells:  1 memorised, 49 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     c - +0 lajatang (slice)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +2 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     e - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     d - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     f - +1 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     o - +2 pair of boots
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    (no ring)
                                (no ring)

@: mighty, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick, somewhat resistant to
hostile enchantments, very stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - a +0,+0 lajatang of slicing (weapon)
 g - a +4,+4 flail
 k - a +5,+5 demon whip of flaming
Armour
 a - a +2 robe (worn)
 d - a +2 cloak (worn)
 e - a +2 helmet (worn)
 f - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 o - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
Comestibles
 p - 11 bread rations
Jewellery
 j - an uncursed ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}
 n - a square zirconium amulet
Potions
 h - 6 potions of restore abilities
 i - 6 potions of curing
 l - 6 potions of haste
 m - 7 potions of might
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Sting                             Conjuration/Poison           1
   Cure Poison                        Poison                       2
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   Olgreb's Toxic Radiance            Poison                       4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5


   Skills:
 - Level 12.0 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 12.0 Staves
 + Level 15.0 Dodging
 + Level 16.8 Stealth
 + Level 16.9 Spellcasting
 + Level 14.9 Poison Magic


You have 49 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
z - Sting                 Conj/Pois      25 (25)      1%          1    0


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something barely misses you.
You hit something.
You barely miss something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel clumsy.
Something closely misses you.
Huge Dmg: -16%(-18hp) hp: 39%(43hp)
You slash something! Something hits you but does no damage.
Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You slice something!! Something hits you but does no damage.
Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You barely miss something.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something closely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -6%(-7hp)   hp: 34%(37hp)
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -2%(-2hp)   hp: 32%(35hp)
You hit something.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Something misses you.
You closely miss something.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something misses you.
Something barely misses you.
You hit something but do no damage.
You barely miss something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something misses you.
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something barely misses you. x2
Something closely misses you.
You closely miss something.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel weakened.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -1%(-1hp)   hp: 33%(36hp)
You barely miss something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something barely misses you. x2
You closely miss something.
You hit something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something barely misses you. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -1%(-1hp)   hp: 32%(35hp)
You miss something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something barely misses you. Something stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -7%(-7hp)   hp: 25%(28hp)
You closely miss something.
You slice something!!
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Huge Dmg: -6%(-7hp) hp: 20%(22hp)
You slash something!
You miss something. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
Mandatory exit. Think how to survive! ; Huge Dmg: -13%(-15hp) hp: 7%(7hp)
Save game and exit?

    ##############
    #............#
    #.........##.#
    #.........##.######
    #.........##.......
    #...###...##.######
    #..##.##..##.#
    #..#...#..##.#
    #..[@{.+..##.#
    #..#...#..##.######
    #..##.##...........
    #...###...##.######
#####.........##.######
#......................
#.##...................
#.######.#####.........
#.#    #.#   #.........


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  4 ghost moths (D:1)
  A hobgoblin (D:1)
  A ghost (D:1)
6 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | DEFE, the Deep Elf Venom Mage, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
     0 | D:1      | Entered wizard mode.
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 16 in Stealth
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 5/23
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/25
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/27
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 5/29
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 5/31
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 5/32
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 5/33
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 5/34
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/54 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/59 MP: 5/37
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/63 MP: 5/38
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 14. HP: 68/68 MP: 5/39
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 15. HP: 72/72 MP: 5/40
   113 | D:1      | Lost strength.
   113 | D:1      | Lost dexterity.
   113 | D:1      | Lost intelligence.
   121 | D:1      | HP: 2/92 [poisoned by a ghost moth]
   122 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             ... while paralysed
             
   124 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   124 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
   126 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   402 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:46 current:45
   598 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:26 current:45
   601 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:12 current:20
   603 | D:1      | HP: 3/92 [something (5)]
   604 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:8 current:3
   604 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
  1092 | D:1      | Slain by a ghost moth (16 damage)
             
  1257 | D:1      | Mangled by a ghost moth (15 damage)
             
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 16. HP: 56/97 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 17. HP: 58/102 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 18. HP: 60/107 MP: 6/42
  2346 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:15 current:7


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |       |       |       |       |116015 |       ||116015
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |112066 |       ||112066
       Lajatang          |       |       |       |       |       |    54 ||    54
  Use: Potion            |       |       |       |       |    15 |     8 ||    23
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1

Vault maps used:
D:1:      dpeg_arrival_shelter, minmay_misc_feat_secret_circle


You forgot the agility pot which is indeed relevant. furthermore it seems to have taken int on level ups, which is wrong when trying to approach optimality, you should take all dex instead after hitting like 8 str. when potted you should have 30+ EV.
Last edited by tabstorm on Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:44, edited 1 time in total.
remove food

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:43

Re: Spider's Nest

tabstorm wrote:You forgot the agility pot which is indeed relevant. furthermore it seems to have taken int on level ups, which is wrong when trying to approach optimality, you should take all dex instead. when potted you should have 30+ EV.


Well, I didn't forget about it. Agility + Haste + Might before fight with every Ghosh Moth is too much IMHO. Maybe berserk is a better option.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:44

Re: Spider's Nest

Man, you can't use FSIM to support arguments. The assumptions made in FSIM are completely different than what actually occurs in a Crawl game, as people have pointed out. FSIM is most useful for comparing damage for different weapons against a given foe, and EVEN THEN it still is relatively worthless.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:45

Re: Spider's Nest

Also I'm putting skjari on my foes list just for starting this atrocity of a thread.

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Arrhythmia
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Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:46

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:
tabstorm wrote:You forgot the agility pot which is indeed relevant. furthermore it seems to have taken int on level ups, which is wrong when trying to approach optimality, you should take all dex instead. when potted you should have 30+ EV.


Well, I didn't forget about it. Agility + Haste + Might before fight with every Ghosh Moth is too much IMHO. Maybe berserk is a better option.


There are only 1-2 in spider:5 in most endings, if you don't want to burn your pots there come back at a higher XL or use some other consumable. You may as well use them before item destruction has its way with them.
remove food

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Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:47

Re: Spider's Nest

WalkerBoh wrote:Man, you can't use FSIM to support arguments. The assumptions made in FSIM are completely different than what actually occurs in a Crawl game, as people have pointed out. FSIM is most useful for comparing damage for different weapons against a given foe, and EVEN THEN it still is relatively worthless.


Main problems with Ghost Moth is accuracy and fsim is perfect for accuracy estimation (another possible method is manual calculation based on formula). As you can see there are fights where you win with 40 HP and where you lose, that's caused by accuracy only.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8784

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:47

Re: Spider's Nest

dude sandman25 im pretty sure everyone agrees with you that fighting a ghost moth as a deep elf with 15/21 and no SInv and a +0 slicing weapon and without casting any spells is bad
they just disagree that anyone except you would misunderstand crawl badly enough to think that it's the correct way to fight ghost moths

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:49

Re: Spider's Nest

duvessa wrote:dude sandman25 im pretty sure everyone agrees with you that fighting a ghost moth as a deep elf with 15/21 and no SInv and a +0 slicing weapon and without casting any spells is bad
they just disagree that anyone except you would misunderstand crawl badly enough to think that it's the correct way to fight ghost moths


That's what I wanted to hear. No more stupid "your caster should be able to kill Ghost Moth in melee". With all possible buffs Ghost Moth can be killed by a dagger with 0 skills in Short Blades.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:52

Re: Spider's Nest

Here we go, +4 dagger without ego and with 0 short blades, 28 HP left.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-658-g449be1d (tiles) character file.

DEFE the Unseen (Deep Elf Venom Mage)               Turns: 2772, Time: 00:20:09

HP  28/112       AC 15     Str  9 (10) XL: 18   Next:  3%
MP   1/42        EV 30     Int 21 (23) God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 19 (20) Spells:  1 memorised, 49 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     q - +4 dagger
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +2 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     e - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     d - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     f - +1 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     o - +2 pair of boots
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    (no ring)
                                (no ring)

@: exhausted, mighty, agile, very slightly contaminated, hasted and slowed,
somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, extraordinarily stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - a +0,+0 lajatang of slicing
 g - a +4,+4 flail
 k - a +5,+5 demon whip of flaming
 q - a +4,+4 dagger (weapon)
Armour
 a - a +2 robe (worn)
 d - a +2 cloak (worn)
 e - a +2 helmet (worn)
 f - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 o - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
Comestibles
 p - 11 bread rations
Jewellery
 j - an uncursed ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}
 n - a square zirconium amulet
Potions
 h - 5 potions of restore abilities
 i - 6 potions of curing
 l - 5 potions of haste
 m - 6 potions of might
 s - 11 potions of agility
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Sting                             Conjuration/Poison           1
   Cure Poison                        Poison                       2
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   Olgreb's Toxic Radiance            Poison                       4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5


   Skills:
 - Level 12.0 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 12.0 Staves
 + Level 15.0 Dodging
 + Level 16.9 Stealth
 + Level 16.9 Spellcasting
 + Level 14.9 Poison Magic


You have 49 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
z - Sting                 Conj/Pois      25 (25)      1%          1    0


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

You feel dopey.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something misses you.
Damage: -2%(-2hp)   hp: 78%(87hp)
You hit something. Something hits you.
You feel clumsy.
Something hits you. Something completely misses you.
Damage: -6%(-7hp)   hp: 72%(80hp)
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
A red film seems to cover your vision as you go berserk!
You feel yourself moving faster! You feel mighty!
You hit something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something barely misses you. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -4%(-7hp)   hp: 68%(113hp)
You closely miss something. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel dopey.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -7%(-12hp)   hp: 61%(101hp)
You hit something but do no damage.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -8%(-13hp)   hp: 53%(88hp)
You barely miss something.
You hit something. Something misses you. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something completely misses you.
Damage: -3%(-5hp)   hp: 50%(83hp)
You hit something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You completely miss something. Something completely misses you.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -4%(-7hp)   hp: 46%(76hp)
You miss something.
You hit something but do no damage. Something completely misses you.
Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You completely miss something. Something misses you. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something completely misses you.
Damage: -7%(-11hp)   hp: 39%(65hp)
Unknown command.
You slash something! Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something completely misses you.
Damage: -5%(-9hp)   hp: 34%(56hp)
You hit something. Something completely misses you.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
You hit something but do no damage.
You hit something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something misses you.
Damage: -6%(-9hp)   hp: 28%(47hp)
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something completely misses you. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something closely misses you. Something completely misses you.
Damage: -5%(-8hp)   hp: 24%(40hp)
You slash something!
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something misses you. Something closely misses you.
Something completely misses you.
You hit something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something misses you. x2
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something barely misses you. Something misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You puncture something!
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced. You are no longer berserk.
You pass out from exhaustion.
You feel yourself slow down.
You can move again.
Huge Dmg: -11%(-12hp) hp: 25%(28hp)
Saving game... please wait.

    ##############
    #............#
    #.........##.#
    #.........##.######
    #.........##.......
    #...###...##.######
    #..##.##..##.#
    #..#...#..##.#
    #..[@<.+..##.#
    #..#...#..##.######
    #..##.##...........
    #...###...##.######
#####.........##.######
#......................
#.##...................
#.######.#####.........
#.#    #.#   #.........


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  5 ghost moths (D:1)
  A giant cockroach (D:1)
  A hobgoblin (D:1)
  A ghost (D:1)
8 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | DEFE, the Deep Elf Venom Mage, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
     0 | D:1      | Entered wizard mode.
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 16 in Stealth
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 5/23
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/25
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/27
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 5/29
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 5/31
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 5/32
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 5/33
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 5/34
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/54 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/59 MP: 5/37
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/63 MP: 5/38
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 14. HP: 68/68 MP: 5/39
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 15. HP: 72/72 MP: 5/40
   113 | D:1      | Lost strength.
   113 | D:1      | Lost dexterity.
   113 | D:1      | Lost intelligence.
   121 | D:1      | HP: 2/92 [poisoned by a ghost moth]
   122 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             ... while paralysed
             
   124 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   124 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
   126 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   402 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:46 current:45
   598 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:26 current:45
   601 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:12 current:20
   603 | D:1      | HP: 3/92 [something (5)]
   604 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:8 current:3
   604 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
  1092 | D:1      | Slain by a ghost moth (16 damage)
             
  1257 | D:1      | Mangled by a ghost moth (15 damage)
             
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 16. HP: 56/97 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 17. HP: 58/102 MP: 6/41
  1689 | D:1      | Reached XP level 18. HP: 60/107 MP: 6/42
  2346 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:15 current:7


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |       |       |       |       |116015 |       ||116015
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |112066 |       ||112066
       Lajatang          |       |       |       |       |       |    56 ||    56
       Dagger            |       |       |       |       |       |    31 ||    31
  Use: Potion            |       |       |       |       |    15 |    13 ||    28
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1

Vault maps used:
D:1:      dpeg_arrival_shelter, minmay_misc_feat_secret_circle

Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:53

Re: Spider's Nest

Okay, going to risk generalization here for the purposes of general advice, for any who make it through this thread:

Many casters, yes even DEs, should be able to take out an isolated ghost moth via careful play, and readily using consumables.

Also note that *either* SInv or rPois makes the fight significantly easier, and having at least one of those two by the time you take on Spider is pretty common. Also note that it is really unlikely that you'd be taking on a ghost moth without *any* chance to cast a helpful spell—even just a buff like stone skin or oz's armor or shroud, or putting up a single conjured flame. Those all take just a few MP and swing the battle in your favor.

Ghost moths aren't trivial enemies, especially for casting-centric characters. Be careful about them, and if you lack Sinv while doing spider, always be on the lookout for MP drain and the message, and be ready to respond accordingly. Assuming you do that, though, they aren't something to be feared above and beyond all else. They are on par with the toughies that spawn in the rune vaults in Snake and Shoals. (Swamp... Eh, not quite as much, even though Shambling Mangroves and Spriggan Druids can be nasty, Swamp is just noticeably easier in general usually.)

For this message the author and into has received thanks:
Lasty
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Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 21:54

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:
duvessa wrote:dude sandman25 im pretty sure everyone agrees with you that fighting a ghost moth as a deep elf with 15/21 and no SInv and a +0 slicing weapon and without casting any spells is bad
they just disagree that anyone except you would misunderstand crawl badly enough to think that it's the correct way to fight ghost moths


That's what I wanted to hear. No more stupid "your caster should be able to kill Ghost Moth in melee". With all possible buffs Ghost Moth can be killed by a dagger with 0 skills in Short Blades.


"You should be able to kill this monster in melee" vs. "You should kill this monster in melee"
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks: 3
duvessa, Lasty, Sar

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 22:00

Re: Spider's Nest

I haven't tackled Thorn Hunters with fragile casters yet, but I imagine meeting one as such character can be an unpleasant experience.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 22:03

Re: Spider's Nest

tabstorm wrote:"You should be able to kill this monster in melee" vs. "You should kill this monster in melee"


That's easy. Have +4 dagger and haste/might/agility/berserk :)
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 23:27

Re: Spider's Nest

Sar wrote:I haven't tackled Thorn Hunters with fragile casters yet, but I imagine meeting one as such character can be an unpleasant experience.

It's not really that bad, you can kill it in probably 3-4 turns with fireball and are unlikely to die in that time barring bad rolls. I've had an easier time with pure caster characters in basically everything but spider 5 than with an "optimal" caster.
remove food

Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Monday, 12th May 2014, 23:52

Re: Spider's Nest

I still have a long way to go toward mastering this game, obviously, but I really don't think I could ever win—or even get to late game—with a ~~pure caster~~. No matter how long I play, or how much I improve.

I mean, getting by with ~12 EV, at least until phase shift is online, that's really hard. (Dodging is a thief skill, don't want such vile impurities on my caster.) No stealth either—again, that's what a thief should be doing, and I want my casters as pure as the driven snow. Can't carry around too many consumables or evocables with 5 strength, but those stat points must go into intelligence. And it sucks when you find +2 gloves of dexterity, those are perfect for a rogue/hunter, but a true caster has to wait for caster gloves, like some randart -1 gloves with +2 intelligence and -5 slaying.

124 HP at level 27 seems difficult too... I mean, it is just so tempting to train even just 8 levels of fighting, which can be gained by just killing a few stone giants. I'd get more than 25 extra HP by doing that.... but no, gotta resist the temptation, gotta win as a caster, and that would turn me into a hybrid.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 00:09

Re: Spider's Nest

Just to prove a point, I made a -reasonable- DE in wizmode. The dump is below. I tried to get the correct amount of xp/training by creating and killing monsters to train -- it gave me some irregular results, so I'm not sure that it actually gave me the right amount of xp. Still, my skills ended up being about where I wanted at level 15 -- I then set all the elemental skills equal to poison to test a few different spells, but I ended up not even needing to use spells. I set the robe to +5 instead of +2 to simulate a +3 ring of protection, since i was having trouble creating one.

I trained short blades and gave myself a +4/+4 cutlass of freezing because it's really easy to get something at least that good. I'd most likely use a great sword, but I thought I should demonstrate a sub-optimal build.

With this character, when I was on haste/agility/might, I was able to kill ghost moths with no trouble at all by just guessing where they were and walking into them repeatedly. I also was able to burn them down with bolt of fire before losing all my mana w/o haste. I was also able to kill it w/o any buffs or spells and w/ 2 potions of heal wounds.

If I had been trying hard (e.g. buff up w/ stoneskin or Ozo's, use fog to locate it, use magic before engaging, wield a better weapon, etc.) it would have posed no threat at all.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-780-gc11c5a2 (tiles) character file.

test the Spry (Deep Elf Venom Mage)                  Turns: 830, Time: 00:19:10

HP  63/90        AC 19     Str 10      XL: 15   Next: 14%
MP  23/37        EV 33     Int 22 (25) God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 21 (22) Spells:  8 memorised,  2 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     d - +4 cutlass (freeze)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +5 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  +         rCorr    .     m - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     l - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     p - +2 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     o - +2 pair of boots
Gourm  .         Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    (no ring)
                                e - ring of poison resistance

@: mighty, agile, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick, somewhat
resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are full.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - a +4,+4 cutlass of freezing (weapon)
Armour
 a - a +5 robe (worn)
 l - a +2 cloak (worn)
 m - a +2 helmet (worn)
 n - a +5 mottled dragon armour
 o - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
 p - a +2 pair of gloves (worn)
Magical devices
 q - a wand of fire (24)
Comestibles
 c - a bread ration
Scrolls
 f - 12 scrolls of fog
Jewellery
 e - a ring of poison resistance (left hand)
Potions
 g - 4 potions of curing
 h - 2 potions of heal wounds
 i - a potion of agility
 j - a potion of haste
 k - a potion of might
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Sting                             Conjuration/Poison           1
   Cure Poison                        Poison                       2
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   Olgreb's Toxic Radiance            Poison                       4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5
Miscellaneous
 r - a phial of floods


   Skills:
 - Level 9.0 Fighting
 - Level 14.0 Short Blades
 - Level 16.8 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 12.0 Spellcasting
 + Level 13.7 Conjurations
 - Level 14.0 Fire Magic
 - Level 14.0 Ice Magic
 - Level 14.0 Earth Magic
 * Level 14.5 Poison Magic


You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sting                 Conj/Pois      25 (25)      0%          1    0
b - Poison Arrow          Conj/Pois      66 (200)     2%          6    285
c - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       44 (200)     1%          3    0
d - Bolt of Cold          Conj/Ice       65 (200)     2%          6    285
e - Bolt of Fire          Conj/Fire      65 (200)     2%          6    285
f - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      65 (200)     2%          6    285
g - Fireball              Conj/Fire      65 (200)     1%          5    85
h - Flight                Chrm/Air       13 (200)     14%         3    0


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

You barely miss the ancient lich.
You carve the ancient lich like a ham!!!!!!!
You freeze the ancient lich!
You destroy the ancient lich!
Your Conjurations skill increases to level 10!
Your Poison Magic skill increases to level 11!
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
An ancient lich comes into view.
The ancient lich shouts!
Items here: %%% ( )
4 large rocks; a stone giant corpse; a giant spiked club; a hill giant corpse; a fire dragon corpse
You cut the ancient lich into ribbons!!!!!!!!!
You freeze the ancient lich!
You destroy the ancient lich!
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
[a] Weapon [b] Armour        [c] Jewellery [d] Book [e] Staff     
[f] Wand   [g] Miscellaneous [h] Food      [i] Gold [j] Ammunition
What kind of item would you like to acquire? (\ to view known items)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
An ancient lich comes into view.
The helpless ancient lich fails to defend itself.
You carve the ancient lich like a ham!!!!!!!!
You freeze the ancient lich!
You destroy the ancient lich!
Your Conjurations skill increases to level 11!
Your Poison Magic skill increases to level 12!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
An ancient lich comes into view.
The helpless ancient lich fails to defend itself.
You stick the ancient lich like a pincushion!!!!!!!!!!
You freeze the ancient lich!
You destroy the ancient lich!
You have reached level 14!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
An ancient lich comes into view.
The helpless ancient lich fails to defend itself.
You open the ancient lich like a pillowcase!!!!!!!!!!
You freeze the ancient lich.
You destroy the ancient lich!
Your Conjurations skill increases to level 12!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
An ancient lich comes into view.
The helpless ancient lich fails to defend itself.
You skewer the ancient lich like a kebab!!!!!!!!!!!
You freeze the ancient lich!
You destroy the ancient lich!
Your Poison Magic skill increases to level 13!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
An ancient lich comes into view.
The helpless ancient lich fails to defend itself.
You slice the ancient lich like a ripe choko!!!!!!!!!!
You freeze the ancient lich.
You destroy the ancient lich!
Your Conjurations skill increases to level 13!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
An ancient lich comes into view.
The helpless ancient lich fails to defend itself.
You chop the ancient lich into pieces!!!!!!!!!!
You destroy the ancient lich!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
An ancient lich comes into view.
The ancient lich shouts!
Things that are here:
a stone giant corpse; 10 large rocks; a stone giant corpse
You carve the ancient lich like a ham!!!!!!!
You freeze the ancient lich.
You destroy the ancient lich!
Your Poison Magic skill increases to level 14!
You have reached level 15!
Your experience leads to an increase in your attributes!
Increase (S)trength, (I)ntelligence, or (D)exterity?
You feel clever.
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
You start resting.
HP restored.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? !
What type of item? !
No such item.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? !
What type of item? might
Potion of might
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? !
What type of item? haste
Potion of haste
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? !
What type of item? agility
Potion of agility
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? !
What type of item? heal wounds
Potion of heal wounds
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? !
What type of item? curing
Potion of curing
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? !
What type of item?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? ?
What type of item? fog
Scroll of fog
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? =
What type of item? protection from poison
No such item.
Adjust (i)tems, (s)pells, or (a)bilities?
Huh?
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? =
What type of item? poison
Ring of poison resistance
Something appears at your feet!
e - an uncursed ring of poison resistance
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
e - a ring of poison resistance (left hand)
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Cost level: 16  Total experience: 163092  Next cost level: 198216 Skill cost: 145
f - 12 scrolls of fog; g - 12 potions of curing; h - 12 potions of heal wounds; i - 12 potions of agility
j - 12 potions of haste
You can't pick everything up without burdening yourself.
k - 8 potions of might
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
You see here 4 potions of might.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? [
What type of item? helmer
No such item.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? [
What type of item? helmet
+0 helmet
What ego type?
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? [
What type of item? gloves
+0 pair of gloves
What ego type?
Something appears at your feet!
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? [
What type of item? cloak
+0 cloak
What ego type?
Something appears at your feet!
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? [
What type of item? boots
+0 pair of boots
What ego type?
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? [
What type of item? mottled dragon armour
+0 mottled dragon armour
What ego type?
Something appears at your feet!
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? /
What type of item? fire
Wand of fire (0)
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? }
What type of item? phial
Phial of floods
Something appears at your feet!
Unknown command.
You are being weighed down by all of your possessions.
l - a +0 cloak; m - a +0 helmet; n - a +0 mottled dragon armour
You are being crushed by all of your possessions.
o - a +0 pair of boots; p - a +0 pair of gloves; q - a wand of fire (24); r - a phial of floods
Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You drop 10 potions of curing.
You are being weighed down by all of your possessions.
You drop 10 potions of heal wounds.
Your possessions no longer seem quite so burdensome.
You drop 11 potions of agility.
You drop 11 potions of haste.
You drop 7 potions of might.
Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You start putting on your armour. You continue putting on your +0 cloak.
You finish putting on your +0 cloak.
Wield which item (- for none, * to show all)? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You start putting on your armour. You continue putting on your +0 helmet.
You finish putting on your +0 helmet.
Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You start putting on your armour.
You continue putting on your +0 pair of boots.
You finish putting on your +0 pair of boots.
Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You start putting on your armour.
You continue putting on your +0 pair of gloves.
You finish putting on your +0 pair of gloves.
Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
a - a -13824 robe (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: 0 (0x0000)
New value? 4
a - a -13824 robe (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
d - a +4,+4096 cutlass of freezing (weapon)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: 4096 (0x1000)
New value? 4
d - a +4,+4 cutlass of freezing (weapon)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
a - a -13824 robe (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
a - a -13824 robe (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: -13824 (0xffffffffffffca00)
New value? 2
a - a +2 robe (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
[a] Weapon [b] Armour        [c] Jewellery [d] Book [e] Staff     
[f] Wand   [g] Miscellaneous [h] Food      [i] Gold [j] Ammunition
What kind of item would you like to acquire? (\ to view known items)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
[a] Weapon [b] Armour        [c] Jewellery [d] Book [e] Staff     
[f] Wand   [g] Miscellaneous [h] Food      [i] Gold [j] Ammunition
What kind of item would you like to acquire? (\ to view known items)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
a - a +2 robe (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: 2 (0x0002)
New value? 5
a - a +5 robe (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
[a] Weapon [b] Armour        [c] Jewellery [d] Book [e] Staff     
[f] Wand   [g] Miscellaneous [h] Food      [i] Gold [j] Ammunition
What kind of item would you like to acquire? (\ to view known items)
Something appears at your feet!
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
l - a +0 cloak (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: 0 (0x0000)
New value? 2
l - a +2 cloak (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
m - a +0 helmet (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: 0 (0x0000)
New value? 2
m - a +2 helmet (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
o - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: 0 (0x0000)
New value? 2
o - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
p - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: 0 (0x0000)
New value? 2
p - a +2 pair of gloves (worn)
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Tweak which item?  (? for menu, Esc to quit)
n - a +0 mottled dragon armour
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
n - a +0 mottled dragon armour
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Old value: 0 (0x0000)
New value? 5
n - a +5 mottled dragon armour
A - plus  b - plus2  c - special  d - quantity  e - flags  ESC - exit
Which field?
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? :
What type of item? ("all" for all) fire
Book of Fire
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? :
What type of item? ("all" for all) ice
Book of Ice
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Things that are here:
a giant spiked club; 4 large rocks; a stone giant corpse
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Items here: !!!!! :: [
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? :
What type of item? ("all" for all) frost
Book of Frost
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? :
What type of item? ("all" for all) air
Book of Air
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? :
What type of item? ("all" for all) annihilations
Book of Annihilations
Something appears at your feet!
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? :
What type of item? ("all" for all) earth
Book of the Earth
Something appears at your feet!
Okay, then.
Okay, then.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Which skill (by name)? spellcasting
Spellcasting
To what level? 12
Increased Spellcasting to skill level 12.0.
Memorise Poison Arrow, consuming 6 spell levels and leaving 31?
You start memorising the spell. You continue memorising.
You continue memorising. x5
You finish memorising.
Memorise Ozocubu's Armour, consuming 3 spell levels and leaving 28?
You start memorising the spell. You continue memorising.
You continue memorising. x2
You finish memorising.
This spell is very dangerous to cast!
Memorise Bolt of Cold, consuming 6 spell levels and leaving 22?
You start memorising the spell. You continue memorising.
You continue memorising. x5
You finish memorising.
This spell is very dangerous to cast!
Memorise Bolt of Fire, consuming 6 spell levels and leaving 16?
You start memorising the spell. You continue memorising.
Magic restored.
You continue memorising. x5
You finish memorising.
This spell is very dangerous to cast!
Memorise Iron Shot, consuming 6 spell levels and leaving 10?
You start memorising the spell. You continue memorising.
You continue memorising. x5
You finish memorising.
This spell is slightly dangerous to cast.
Memorise Fireball, consuming 5 spell levels and leaving 5?
You start memorising the spell. You continue memorising.
You continue memorising. x4
You finish memorising.
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Which skill (by name)? fire
Fire Magic
To what level? 14
Increased Fire Magic to skill level 14.0.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Which skill (by name)? ice
Ice Magic
To what level? 14
Increased Ice Magic to skill level 14.0.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Which skill (by name)? Earth
Earth Magic
To what level? 14
Increased Earth Magic to skill level 14.0.
Wield which item (- for none, * to show all)? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Unknown command.
Memorise Flight, consuming 3 spell levels and leaving 2?
You start memorising the spell. You continue memorising.
You continue memorising. x2
You finish memorising.
Unknown command.
Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
Okay, then.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel very mighty all of a sudden.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel agile all of a sudden.
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention!
You feel you are being watched by something.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something closely misses you. Something barely misses you. Something completely misses you.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something completely misses you. Something closely misses you. Something closely misses you.
Things that are here:
a stone giant corpse; 10 large rocks; a stone giant corpse
Something closely misses you. Something completely misses you. Something misses you.
Things that are here:
3 large rocks; a stone giant corpse; a fire dragon corpse
Something hits you but does no damage. Something completely misses you. Something misses you.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel yourself speed up.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something misses you. Something hits you but does no damage. Something misses you.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
You slash something! You freeze something.
You slice something!! You freeze something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something closely misses you.
You barely miss something.
You slash something! You freeze something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something misses you. Something completely misses you. Something barely misses you.
You slash something! You freeze something.
You puncture something! You freeze something.
You barely miss something. Something completely misses you. Something misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You puncture something! You freeze something.
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced.
Things that are here:
3 large rocks; a stone giant corpse; a fire dragon corpse
Things that are here:
a stone giant corpse; 10 large rocks; a stone giant corpse
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Items here: !!!!! :::::: [
Unknown command.
Saving game... please wait.
Welcome back, test the Deep Elf Venom Mage.
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Char dumped to 'morgue/test.txt'.
You start resting.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
Your extra speed is starting to run out.
You start resting.
You feel yourself slow down.
You start resting.
You feel a little less agile now.
You start resting.
You feel a little less mighty now.
You start resting.
Your magical contamination has completely faded away.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention!
You feel you are being watched by something.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something misses you. Something hits you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Things that are here:
a rotting stone giant corpse x2
10 large rocks
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Things that are here:
a rotting stone giant corpse; 3 large rocks; a rotting fire dragon corpse
Unknown command.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something completely misses you. Something barely misses you.
Things that are here:
a rotting stone giant corpse x2
10 large rocks
Unknown command.
Something closely misses you. x2
Something barely misses you.
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Items here: !!!!! :::::: [
Unknown command.
You feel you are being watched by something. x2
Something barely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Things that are here:
a rotting stone giant corpse; 2 large rocks
You barely miss something.
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something misses you. x2
Something barely misses you.
You hit something.
You hit something but do no damage. Something hits you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You miss something. Something hits you. Something misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You closely miss something.
You hit something but do no damage. Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you.
You feel dopey.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something. Something closely misses you. Something hits you!
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something.
You closely miss something. Something barely misses you. Something hits you!
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You slash something! You freeze something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something completely misses you. Something barely misses you. Something stings you.
You closely miss something. Something hits you but does no damage. Something misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you! Something closely misses you. Something misses you.
You hit something.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something barely misses you. Something misses you. Something barely misses you.
You hit something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you. Something closely misses you. Something barely misses you.
You closely miss something.
You hit something. You freeze something. Something closely misses you. Something hits you!
You feel dopey.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something. You freeze something.
You puncture something! You freeze something. Something hits you. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something. Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something misses you.
You slash something! You freeze something.
You hit something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something closely misses you. x2
You barely miss something.
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel much better. Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you. Something misses you.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you.
You feel dopey.
Something misses you. Something closely misses you.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel much better. Something hits you. Something barely misses you. Something closely misses you.
You barely miss something.
You hit something but do no damage.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. x2
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You closely miss something.
You barely miss something. Something hits you. Something misses you. Something stings you.
You hit something. You freeze something.
You hit something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something closely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage. Something completely misses you.
You hit something but do no damage.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you! Something hits you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something.
You puncture something! You freeze something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. x2
Something barely misses you.
You hit something.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something closely misses you. Something completely misses you. Something stings you.
You hit something but do no damage. Something completely misses you. Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You closely miss something.
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. x2
Something barely misses you.
You barely miss something.
You hit something. Something closely misses you. Something misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something. You freeze something. Something closely misses you. Something hits you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You puncture something! You freeze something.
You hit something. You freeze something.
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced.
Things that are here:
a rotting stone giant corpse x2
10 large rocks
You start resting.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
You start resting.
HP restored.
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Items here: !!!!! :::::: [
i - 2 potions of agility; g - 4 potions of curing (gained 2); j - 2 potions of haste; h - 2 potions of heal wounds
k - 2 potions of might
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention!
Something hits you but does no damage.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something barely misses you. x2
Things that are here:
a stone giant skeleton x2
10 large rocks
Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
Okay, then.
Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line
The bolt of fire hits something. Something hits you but does no damage. Something completely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Casting: Bolt of Fire
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line
Something hits you but does no damage. Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Casting: Bolt of Fire
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line
The bolt of fire hits something. Something hits you. Something hits you! Something barely misses you.
Casting: Bolt of Fire
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line
The bolt of fire hits something.
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced.
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Items here: !!!!! :::::: [
You start resting.
You start resting.
HP restored.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
You start waiting.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Not a Wizard Command.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
A jumping spider comes into view.
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention! The jumping spider hisses angrily.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel yourself speed up. The jumping spider barely misses you.
The jumping spider bites you but does no damage.
Something hits you!
You feel clumsy.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something barely misses you. Something closely misses you.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel very mighty all of a sudden.
The jumping spider barely misses you. The jumping spider closely misses you.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something closely misses you. Something misses you. Something misses you.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel agile all of a sudden.
The jumping spider completely misses you.
The jumping spider bites you.
You barely miss the jumping spider. Something hits you! Something hits you but does no damage.
Something misses you.
The jumping spider completely misses you.
The jumping spider misses you.
You puncture the jumping spider! You freeze the jumping spider.
The jumping spider is heavily wounded.
You miss the jumping spider.
The jumping spider is heavily wounded.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something barely misses you. Something misses you.
You puncture the jumping spider! You freeze the jumping spider.
The jumping spider is almost dead.
The jumping spider completely misses you.
The jumping spider bites you but does no damage.
You closely miss the jumping spider.
The jumping spider is almost dead.
You puncture the jumping spider! You freeze the jumping spider.
You kill the jumping spider!
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something closely misses you. Something completely misses you. Something misses you.
You puncture something! You freeze something.
You slash something! You freeze something.
You hit something. Something barely misses you. Something hits you. Something closely misses you.
You completely miss something.
You puncture something! You freeze something.
You puncture something! You freeze something. Something misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something. You freeze something.
You slash something!
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced.
Things that are here:
a ghost moth corpse; a fire dragon skeleton
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Items here: !!!!! :::::: [
Saving game... please wait.

 ##    #####
##...###%)%#
.......%%@%#
##...###%%%#
 ##    ##%##
       #...#
 ..........#
  ...###...#
  #    #####


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  10 ancient liches (D:1)
  A pandemonium lord (D:1)
  4 ghost moths (D:1)
  11 stone giants (D:1)
  5 fire dragons (D:1)
  3 hill giants (D:1)
  A jumping spider (D:1)
  2 yaks (D:1)
  2 giant frogs (D:1)
39 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | test, the Deep Elf Venom Mage, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
     0 | D:1      | Entered wizard mode.
     2 | D:1      | Noticed a giant frog
     2 | D:1      | Killed a giant frog
     2 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 8/8
     2 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 10/10
     3 | D:1      | Noticed a giant frog
     3 | D:1      | Killed a giant frog
     3 | D:1      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 13/13
     4 | D:1      | Noticed a yak
     4 | D:1      | Killed a yak
     4 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
     4 | D:1      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 16/16
     5 | D:1      | Noticed a yak
     5 | D:1      | Killed a yak
     5 | D:1      | Reached skill level 6 in Short Blades
     5 | D:1      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 18/18
     6 | D:1      | Noticed a fire dragon
     7 | D:1      | Killed a fire dragon
     7 | D:1      | Reached skill level 9 in Short Blades
     7 | D:1      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 20/20
     7 | D:1      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 21/21
     9 | D:1      | Noticed a fire dragon
    10 | D:1      | Killed a fire dragon
    10 | D:1      | Reached skill level 11 in Short Blades
    12 | D:1      | Noticed a fire dragon
    12 | D:1      | Killed a fire dragon
    12 | D:1      | Reached skill level 12 in Short Blades
    12 | D:1      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 22/22
    13 | D:1      | Noticed a fire dragon
    13 | D:1      | Killed a fire dragon
    13 | D:1      | Reached skill level 13 in Short Blades
    14 | D:1      | Noticed a fire dragon
    14 | D:1      | Killed a fire dragon
    14 | D:1      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 24/24
    15 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    15 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    18 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    18 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    18 | D:1      | Reached skill level 16 in Dodging
    19 | D:1      | Noticed a hill giant
    19 | D:1      | Killed a hill giant
    20 | D:1      | Noticed a hill giant
    20 | D:1      | Killed a hill giant
    21 | D:1      | Noticed a hill giant
    21 | D:1      | Killed a hill giant
    22 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    22 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    22 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
    22 | D:1      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 53/71 MP: 24/28
    23 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    23 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    24 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    25 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    27 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    27 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    28 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    28 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    29 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    30 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    31 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    31 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    32 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    32 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    32 | D:1      | Reached XP level 12. HP: 57/76 MP: 25/30
    33 | D:1      | Noticed a stone giant
    33 | D:1      | Killed a stone giant
    34 | D:1      | Noticed Nonkol the pandemonium lord
    34 | D:1      | Killed Nonkol the pandemonium lord
    34 | D:1      | Reached skill level 10 in Poison Magic
    35 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    35 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    35 | D:1      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 60/80 MP: 25/31
    36 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    38 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    38 | D:1      | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
    40 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    41 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    43 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    43 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    44 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    44 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    44 | D:1      | Reached XP level 14. HP: 66/86 MP: 27/32
    45 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    45 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    46 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    46 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    47 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    47 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    48 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    48 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    49 | D:1      | Noticed an ancient lich
    50 | D:1      | Killed an ancient lich
    50 | D:1      | Reached XP level 15. HP: 70/90 MP: 28/32
   156 | D:1      | Learned a level 6 spell: Poison Arrow
   160 | D:1      | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour
   167 | D:1      | Learned a level 6 spell: Bolt of Cold
   174 | D:1      | Learned a level 6 spell: Bolt of Fire
   181 | D:1      | Learned a level 6 spell: Iron Shot
   187 | D:1      | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball
   191 | D:1      | Learned a level 3 spell: Flight


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Cutlass           |  4002 |     3 |     4 |    16 |    81 ||  4106
 Cast: Bolt of Fire      |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
  Use: Potion            |       |       |       |       |     8 ||     8
 Stab: Sleeping          |     2 |     3 |     4 |    14 |     6 ||    29

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 00:13

Re: Spider's Nest

@and into, that's a rather extreme version of 'pure' caster...I generally avoid casters like the plague, but once upon a time I decided I had to see how the other half lives, and rolled up a "pure" caster: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/Ta ... 101639.txt

I trained the hell out of dodging and fighting, eventually up to 27 (This was a long 15 rune game with a full 27 floors of zig exp as well), but I did NOT use any melee skills in the early portion of the game. The only weapon skill, melee or ranged, that I trained was staves:

76623 | Abyss | Reached skill level 1 in Staves

By that point I already had 4 runes (standard 3 + abyss) and had cleared out zot1-4 with no weapon skill.

I'd probably pick up a weapon a bit earlier if I was playing today, this was back in .10, so I certainly didn't have to deal with spider branch/ghost moths at any point, but I'd argue that this kind of caster is still quite possible. I wouldn't argue that it is ideal, however.

Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 00:34

Re: Spider's Nest

No, sorry tasonir, that's obviously a mage/thief/artificer hybrid, with a bit of staff fighter thrown in...

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, my point is exactly this: These terms, which make sense in some games, really do not apply to Crawl. In sensible usage, I take "caster" in DCSS to mean, "you are mostly using spells to kill most tough enemies, at all or nearly all points in the game." (Once you start doing more than 5 runes and/or ziggurats, even this usage stops making any sense oftentimes, cause you just get so much experience you start raising whatever and using whatever to kill dudes.)

So I have no idea what people mean when they say "pure caster," and doubly so when they use that term to refer to how to train rather than the tools you use in fights. I think it seems like everyone keeps moving goalposts because in fact this term doesn't really apply to Crawl and so people have wildly different meanings when they use it.

Someone can post a counterexample of a caster who kills a fairly tough enemy in melee, only to be told, "Oh well if you put X skill in a weapon that means you are a ~hybrid~, I'm talking about a pure caster." But the same person who says that probably has more invested in dodging than many of their magic skills, and dodging isn't a spell. So you can train dodging, and some fighting for HP, some stealth early on, and maybe even some evocations eventually, and you are still a *pure* caster... but if you train teensy bit of a weapon skill, you are a hybrid?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around what people actually mean when they use these words.

My point would simply be that training 10 or 12 or 14 or even more levels in a weapon skill doesn't really diminish the "purity" of a caster, at least not any more than training 14 or 16 or 20 in dodging, over the course of a game, plus however much in fighting, stealth, and evocations. Not to mention the whole issue of god choice and invocations. (Are you only a pure caster if you take Vehumet/Sif/Kiku? What about Ash? What about gods with more active abilities, like Makhleb or Fedhas? Does training invocations make you a hybrid?)

These terms maybe have a bit of substance in Crawl if you are talking about, "What do I primarily use to kill stuff?", but even that tenuous application breaks down when it comes to skill training.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 00:42

Re: Spider's Nest

...why would a "pure caster" have trouble with ghost moths even if you play one
i've done several characters with no melee/missiles and no/bad dodging/armour (here, here) and I assure you that ghost moths aren't dangerous to them

Crypt Cleanser

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Joined: Monday, 14th February 2011, 05:35

Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 00:45

Re: Spider's Nest

To me, "caster" means "don't reply."
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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 00:55

Re: Spider's Nest

and into wrote:or putting up a single conjured flame. Those all take just a few MP and swing the battle in your favor.


I'm not trying to disagree with you, but I don't understand; how can one single cloud of flame in a branch that is completely devoid of any chokepoints swing the battle in your favor? It seems to me that it would be completely useless.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8784

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 00:58

Re: Spider's Nest

you cast conjure flame and the ghost moth goes into it and takes damage

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 01:00

Re: Spider's Nest

For me pure caster is "train magic if it makes sense". For instance, pure caster DEFE of Vehumet can train Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Ignite Poison, Ring of Flames and Fire Storm before training any armour or weapon. Another definition - Pure caster trains Evocations instead of Armour.

Barkeep

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Location: USA

Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 01:02

Re: Spider's Nest

There aren't zero chokepoints in spider, and even then wands of disintegration and digging exist. But putting that aside: Ghost moths will happily flutter into and remain within your flame cloud. And if you are in the open and cannot guess for sure exactly where the GM is, you can still conjure it, and once you know where it is, reposition such that it will enter the flame. It will readily do so, and will start taking extra EV- and invisibility-ignoring damage every turn.

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dck

Vestibule Violator

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Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 01:03

Re: Spider's Nest

If you have a weapon skill over 11 and at least 9 invo you're playing a fanatic
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Blades Runner

Posts: 624

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 04:50

Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 01:33

Re: Spider's Nest

Oh, I assumed the ghost moth would try to avoid the flame if possible like most monsters. And when I said "completely devoid of any chokepoints", it was a slight exaggeration, there are chokepoints but they are very scarce and all floors of spider are generally either wide open or comprised of hallways that are more than one space wide.

Barkeep

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Location: USA

Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 01:48

Re: Spider's Nest

Nope. Much like their real-world analogue, Ghost Moths in Crawl will happily fly into the light, even at their own peril.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 143

Joined: Friday, 15th March 2013, 23:33

Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 01:50

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:For me pure caster is "train magic if it makes sense". For instance, pure caster DEFE of Vehumet can train Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Ignite Poison, Ring of Flames and Fire Storm before training any armour or weapon. Another definition - Pure caster trains Evocations instead of Armour.


I'm not sure it "makes sense" to train Fire Storm before a weapon on any character.

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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 02:05

Re: Spider's Nest

Sandman25 wrote:For me pure caster is "train magic if it makes sense". For instance, pure caster DEFE of Vehumet can train Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Ignite Poison, Ring of Flames and Fire Storm before training any armour or weapon. Another definition - Pure caster trains Evocations instead of Armour.


Okay, yes, this is the heart of the disagreement, then.

Yes, a DEFE can get all those spells castable before training any armour or weapon. But I don't think that's reasonable, even for someone wanting to play an extremely caster-centric character (i.e., using conjurations as far and away the main offensive method).

I can't think of a situation in which one would train evocations instead of armour. Perhaps evocations before armour (is that what you meant?), but not evocations as a replacement for armour. But I also don't get how that's connected to considering something a caster. (I feel like I'm misunderstanding your intended meaning for that second definition though?)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 02:05

Re: Spider's Nest

zardo wrote:I'm not sure it "makes sense" to train Fire Storm before a weapon on any character.


Sometimes you find yourself not using weapon at all so it makes little sense to train one. I even have an example

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 02:08

Re: Spider's Nest

and into wrote:I can't think of a situation in which one would train evocations instead of armour. Perhaps evocations before armour (is that what you meant?), but not evocations as a replacement for armour. But I also don't get how that's connected to considering something a caster. (I feel like I'm misunderstanding your intended meaning for that second definition though?)


Yes, before Armour. Evocations for caster is a tool for offense, who needs Armour when you can get more mana and cast another Fire Storm? So it is somewhat replacement of armour, but eventually I train Armour too of course.

Zot Zealot

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 02:16

Re: Spider's Nest

Clearly we need a "Caster" background, just to confuse everything even more.

They start with the Book of Casting:
- Stoneskin
- Statue-form
- Summon statue
- Conjure gargoyle

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and into, Arrhythmia, Brannock, duvessa, Viashino_wizard

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 03:17

Re: Spider's Nest

Lasty wrote:If this is genuinely what you're trying to prove then you're making a point that is uncontentious because it has no content. Of course it's possible for a badly-built caster who will not run to lose in a melee fight with a ghost moth;

You know, the bias that anything that doesn't lie between fighter and fighter-mage on the might vs magic scale is "badly built" is really annoying.

dck

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 03:32

Re: Spider's Nest

truth can be annoying.

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Laraso

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 13th May 2014, 04:17

Re: Spider's Nest

Well it's not the truth on the melee side. A minotaur that doesn't learn spells is not necessarily badly built.

Melee skill is optionally fairly useless outside of the Abyss if you have a way to leave once you run out of mp. A way to leave would be haste or even swiftness. If you can leave when you run out of mp, you can rest and recover mp, and go back and kill the enemy with spells. The main advantage of training a weapon skill is that tabbing weak enemies is less tedious than using offensive spells.
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