Sandman25 wrote:Here you missed what I am trying to prove. "Every caster should be able to kill GM in melee" can be countered by a single example of a caster who is not supposed to do it. A single character suffices, nobody cares if it's average, majority or niche.
If this is genuinely what you're trying to prove then you're making a point that is uncontentious because it has no content. Of course it's
possible for a badly-built caster who will not run to lose in a melee fight with a ghost moth; it's also possible for a badly-built healer to die in Lair. If this genuinely is your actual point, then there's no reason to try to make it, because it's essentially a non-statement.
I assumed your argument was something with content, like "some reasonably-built characters have an unreasonably hard time killing ghost moths even when they are played well." I'm going to continue my response as if you're arguing for that latter argument, since otherwise there's really no meaning to any of this.
Sandman25 wrote:Here you missed that I had several examples with +5 Demon Whip of flaming. I am sure you replied before reading remaining posts in the thread.
I didn't miss it. I saw that you added it only after people pointed out how unreasonable your first example was. I mention the most unreasonable version because you
did offer it, and offering it was not reasonable.
Sandman25 wrote:* trained below minimum delay
Yes, it happens with casters, you know? If a "caster" has 10 Fighting, 15 Dodging and the best weapons at min delay (0.6 turn per attack is bad for you?) how is it different from a MfFi and alike?
If your argument is "training weapons to min delay makes you a MfFi so I don't do it," you're starting from premises that no reasonable player adopts. You might as well say you don't use blink scrolls because then you might as well be a warper. Do all characters need to train to min delay? Not necessarily, but if their plan for handling ghost moths is melee, then they absolutely should.
Sandman25 wrote:That's why I presented a morgue with character who cleared Snake 5 at XL 15.
Did you know that there are morgues of players who have cleared swamp at XL12? Of course Swamp isn't Snake. And Snake isn't Spider. And one example isn't a representative sample.
Sandman25 wrote:* with awful defenses and hp
I wonder if you are serious here. 92 HP at XL 15, my DEVM got 98 HP at XL 16 in Snake 5.
That's why I asked you to present an example of your caster at XL 15.
If you think 92 hp, 11 AC, and 23 EV and no rPois is an adequate level of defense for Spider:5, I can see why you have trouble.
Sandman25 wrote:* without activating buffs or using allies or tools
Here you missed several things:
1) A hasted DE died to GM
2) A hasted and mighted DE died to GM
3) A hasted and mighted DE (before first attack of GM) lost almost 50% HP to GM. With some worse luck it could be worse. 50% accuracy is not reliable, you can get 4 misses in a row eaily.
I didn't miss those at all. Again, your initial offering skipped haste and might, and that is worth noting: you considered the no might, no haste example to be a reasonable piece of evidence initially. None of them tried agility or any charms or !resistance. None of them tried healing or wands or evokers. None of them used fog or water. All of them are using a build that has all the other problems I described. Despite all these handicaps one of them won the fight at > 50% health. When it did, you immediately said that wasn't good enough because it has to fight a second ghost moth without resting. Heck, the time you drank haste/might and died, you even drank might while at hp warning levels and standing next to the moth and letting it smash you. That's obviously not necessary.
Sandman25 wrote:* without casting any spells before all mana is drained
That's the whole point. I am not going to argue that GM cannot be safely killed with Fireball, Poisonous Cloud, Toxic Radiance and alike. You were fighting some Jumping spider, spent most MP and then lost remaining MP before being able to realize where the GM is. Yes, it happens often. No, you don't have spell Haste and cannot just run away to restore MP, it would require a consumable because of speed 12 GM has.
You're allowed to use consumables to battle/escape from things that are strong. You don't even need to use !haste -- there are things like !invis, ?blink and ?tele, for example. If the battle is on bad terms, you should leave, whether the opponent is a ghost moth or a gecko.
Sandman25 wrote:* and then going on to fight wolf spiders and emperor scorpions immediately after (successfully!) killing the ghost moth.
Good players avoid fights where their HP bar can drop below 50%, especially if they are poisoned, lost some stats and cannot easily go upstairs. For "why they cannot escape to explored" see point above about speed 12. Also trap spiders are fun, especially with web traps which act as Mark.
Well then you should be excited that your wizmode test had > 50% health, even considering its incredible shortcomings. Do you really want to argue that ghost moths are unreasonable because they can take a DE built to be bad at melee with no poison resistance to a little over 50% health in melee?
Sandman25 wrote:This is one of the most elaborately terrible strawmen I've ever seen. You may as well be hypothesizing that you're a mummy surrounded by orbs of fire and wearing a cursed amulet of stasis.
This is one of the least friendly first post of a person in a discussion, of a person who missed the whole point of everything and still is insulting other players.
It's only unfriendly if it's inaccurate, and I don't think that it is. Also, I've never heard a rule that the first post in each thread needs to be more friendly than subsequent ones.
I want to be clear about this: I am not insulting you. I am making factual claims about your argumentation. There's a difference between criticizing what you've said and criticizing you as a person. I would be insulting you if I told you that you're a jerk or that you're terrible at crawl or that you smell bad, but I'm not insulting you if I tell you that you've made a strawman argument. I am make a claim about your argumentation which you are free to refute. It's inherently neither friendly nor unfriendly, it's engaging in argumentation about the claims you are making. It's true that my overall tone was not friendly, and that reflects the fact that I am frustrated with you. Tone-policing can be an effective way to derail argumentation, but it is rarely useful within argumentation that's still on-track.
Could you please indicate the post in which I argued that it's impossible to be killed by a ghost moth?
Sandman25 wrote:Here you missed that I am not discussing other tools (gods, wands, evocables etc.), I am discussing melee only.
But why are you doing that? No sensible player would limit themselves to melee only if they have other options that would help, and most players will have other options that will help by Spider:5.
Sandman25 wrote:Here you missed so much that I don't even know what to write. I don't remember a single death to ghost Moth but it does not mean that I killed all of them in melee.
And that's considering that you prefer what you describe as "pure casters". Seems like a pretty solid argument that there's nothing wrong with ghost moths to me.
Sandman25 wrote:skipping the rest of your post since it does nothing except bragging how great player you are.
That really misses the point. I was actually pointing out that I can be a very careless player and
still beat ghost moths with conjurations-heavy characters, and I'm bringing it up not to embarrass myself with how careless I can be, but instead to point out that you can make a lot of mistakes and still beat up ghost moths, even with characters whose primary offense is attacked by ghost moths.