Demonspawn Earth Elementalist

[vintermann]

I've had luck with these before (got one as far as Cerebov), and now one gave me my first win in the Red Sonja sprint. The shadowstalker mutation combines really well with earth conjurations - if you can see it, you can shoot it. If you don't want to shoot it, you can sneak away.

Anyone else have experiences with these that they want to share?

[FlyingPants]

I don't see the point of demonspawn anything in the main game.

Even with the best mutations it doesn't seem worth the bad aptitudes, and most importantly the fact that smiting or that holy stuff does so much more damage to you. Then again, i've never been able to actually make a magic user yet. Even when i start as a magic user, i always go "ok lets melee for a bit" and then i melee for the rest of the game.

[joellercoaster]

DS could be another way out of my earlier EE 'second dimension' problem I was having in the later midgame... I solved it with Gods but mutations could provide some even cooler ways out (as you've just demonstrated ).

[Whart]

I don't see the point of demonspawn anything in the main game.

Even with the best mutations it doesn't seem worth the bad aptitudes, and most importantly the fact that smiting or that holy stuff does so much more damage to you. Then again, i've never been able to actually make a magic user yet. Even when i start as a magic user, i always go "ok lets melee for a bit" and then i melee for the rest of the game.

I don't have an opinion on DSEEs other than that I like both; I can't express an opinion on how they do on Sprint as I haven't even dipped a toe in. Liking Earth Elementalists is a new thing for me since I read that stone arrow got a boost and sticky flame isn't all that anymore. I used to like fire a lot.

Demonspawn, though, while I've never won with one are pretty cool IMO.They're generalists, but have a couple OK aptitudes, and one very good, namely invocations, which can be handy with, well, classically Makhleb, but Okawaru and even Chei would work with that. Going with Chei has problems because you're likely to lose slots, even though Slouch is quite grand. Mutations add a lot of spice, even if it's just fire breath and a free shield or something.

Not saying you should like them, FlyingPants, just saying why I do.

[Gabriellk]

I would change some -1 aptitudes (wich isn't even bad) for some awesome mutations that DS have like Demonic Guardian and some scales. Demonspawn are great, and there lots of species with bad aptitudes (DS aren't one of them).
They are also really versatile, it isn't a surprise for me that Earth Elementalist can work with them.

[KoboldLord]

-1 to every aptitude is just another way to say that they level slightly slower. Aptitudes aren't really meaningful except in relation to each other; in the early game it'll just take an extra ogre or two victory danced into spell schools to get a spell to excellent, and for most of the rest of the game you'll hang at most 1 skill level behind where you otherwise would have been. In exchange you get a swarm of executioners that kill everything for you, or +30% hit points, or other things that can be equally preposterously good.

Aside from D1-D3, where it can be a minor struggle to get going depending on background, the biggest drawback I've experienced with demonspawn is the possibility of being forced to retool your entire character when you see a particular mutation. That isn't necessarily going to be easy.

[njvack]

It's not exactly true that aptitudes aren't meaningful except in relation to each other; they're meaningful in relation to the difficulty of monsters. I'm trying a DSTm after a long line of SETms, and it's definitely more difficult in a lot of ways -- I normally have Ice Form at Good by CL7 or so, and even with +7 in rings of int, it's at poor for me right now.

Some of the mutations are great (man, I'm hoping for Demonic Guardian or Spines, but Claws 3 ain't too shabby for a Transmuter), but some of them aren't, so much. They definitely aren't guaranteed to make especially the early game a lot easier.

So... at least as far as players like me who have marginal survival skills anyhow, the slower advancement of Demonspawn (and friends) makes them seem like challenges. Challenges with fun perks.

[AtT]

I heard DeVm suggested by someone before, proposing that demonspawn are "late bloomers" and venom mages "excel in the early game." I don't remember who it was but it is one of those combos that just feels natural.

[dassem]

Yup! Although this is slightly off the original topic, it addresses the issue of whether DS are worth playing.

After a long run of DS that left me wondering why I didn't ever get the good mutations, I got these:
antennae 3, repel missiles, cold resistance 1, conserve potions, nightstalker 3, passive freeze, +30% hp, EV +4
On a venom mage who finished with 308 HP, close to 60 EV (with ring swaps), and 15 runes.
http://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2361

Of course, that combination would be powerful for almost any character (such as the original EE question), but where DS get interesting is when the mutations just don't match your play/god choice. Asider from getting weak demonic guardians with Oka (who wants you to protect allies), there's also the risk of losing STR on a character that you'd planned to turn into a heavy armor wearing tank...
Thematically, I love DS.