More general unarmed questions

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 01:42 by Blomdor

I'm still obsessed with martial artist characters and really don't like making a specific character thread just to get it killed in some idiotic way ten minutes later, as usually happens.

I rolled a MiTm and played it purely as a monk up til now, raising only the fighting/unarmed/dodging triad before converting to Nemelex and raising evocations as well. The plan was to start putting experience into casting only once the game starting dumping enough experience on me to make it practical with the terrible aptitudes, probably at some point after completing Orc. However, I ended up finding the fencer's gloves and now am faced with the choice between them and blade hands. The question, therefore, is how good exactly blade hands is, and whether it's actually worth training for at this point. I'll post a chardump for reference, but there's no telling if I'll manage not to splat him in the near future; this is mostly a general question regarding the usefulness of the spell.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.1-1-g650416f (webtiles) character file. Blomdor the Black Belt (Minotaur Transmuter) Turns: 20539, Time: 01:34:53 HP 116/116 AC 17 Str 15 XL: 13 Next: 55% MP 18/18 EV 22 Int 10 God: Nemelex Xobeh [******] Gold 705 SH 12 Dex 19 Spells: 2 memorised, 12 levels left rFire + . . SeeInvis . - Unarmed rCold + . . Clarity . r - +3 ring mail rNeg . . . Conserve . o - +0 buckler rPois . rCorr . v - +2 hat {MR+} rElec . rRot . u - +1 cloak SustAb . . Spirit . z - +2 pair of fencer's gloves {EV+3 Dex+3 Acc+8} rMut . Warding . Q - +0 pair of boots Saprov . . . Stasis . e - amulet of faith MR +.... l - ring of protection from cold f - ring of protection from fire @: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2 a: Draw One, Peek at Two, Triple Draw, Deal Four, Stack Five, Renounce Religion You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts. You worship Nemelex Xobeh. Nemelex Xobeh is exalted by your worship. You are not hungry. You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 19 of its levels. You have also visited: Labyrinth. You have collected 825 gold pieces. You have spent 120 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Armour o - a +0 buckler (worn) r - a +3 ring mail (worn) u - a +1 cloak (worn) v - a +2 hat of magic resistance (worn) z - the +2 pair of fencer's gloves (worn) {EV+3 Dex+3 Acc+8} (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon) It affects your evasion (+3). It affects your dexterity (+3). It affects your accuracy with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+8). Q - a +0 pair of boots (worn) Magical devices B - a wand of draining {zapped: 2} D - a wand of digging (3) I - a wand of cold {zapped: 2} Comestibles g - 16 bread rations Scrolls i - 7 scrolls of remove curse m - a scroll of identify q - a scroll of magic mapping F - 2 scrolls of fear Jewellery e - an amulet of faith (around neck) f - a ring of protection from fire (left hand) j - an uncursed ring of see invisible l - a ring of protection from cold (right hand) O - an uncursed ring of flight Potions n - 7 potions of curing A - 5 potions of heal wounds E - 2 potions of agility J - a potion of might R - a potion of resistance T - 2 potions of restore abilities Y - a potion of haste Miscellaneous a - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1} b - a legendary deck of escape {Swap, drawn: 1} d - an ornate deck of destruction {drawn: 1} h - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 1} p - a plain deck of destruction {drawn: 1} s - an ornate deck of summonings {drawn: 1} t - an ornate deck of destruction {drawn: 2} x - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1} S - a lamp of fire Rods K - a rod of clouds (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth) X - a +2 rod of the swarm (12/12) (You found it in a labyrinth) Skills: - Level 11.6 Fighting - Level 3.0 Armour + Level 12.4 Dodging + Level 4.9 Shields * Level 17.0 Unarmed Combat - Level 1.3 Spellcasting - Level 1.5 Transmutations + Level 6.5 Evocations You have 12 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Beastly Appendage Trmt #..... 24% 1 ##..... b - Summon Butterflies Summ #....... 45% 1 ##..... Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (10/15) Temple (1/1) D:4 Orc (0/4) D:9 Lair (8/8) D:10 Shoals (0/5) Lair:6 Snake (0/5) Lair:5 Slime: Lair:6-8 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Fedhas Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Sif Muna Vehumet Xom Zin The Shining One Shops: D:7 ( D:9 ! Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee. You have a pair of horns on your head. Message History Identify which item? (\ to view known items) (? for menu, Esc to quit) As you read the scroll of identify, it crumbles to dust. W - an uncursed ring of wizardry Identify which item? (\ to view known items) (? for menu, Esc to quit) You get a glimpse of the first card. It is Swap. b - a legendary deck of escape {Swap, drawn: 1} Identify which item? (\ to view known items) (? for menu, Esc to quit) X - a +2 rod of the swarm (12/12) Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) You drop an uncursed ring of wizardry. Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) Unknown command. Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) You drop a book of the Earth. Unknown command. You are alive. Your movement speed is average. Your attack speed is quite fast. You are somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments. You feel unstealthy. #........# #...... ###........# ###.... #f.........## #..... ##..........# ####..... ##...........## ##........ #.............# ##fP....... ##..........#### #.......... .##.........###########.......... ..............##@#............... .........#....................... ................................. ................................. ................................. ................................> .#.............<................. ................................. ................................. There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures Maud (Lair:6) Gastronok (Lair:1) A minotaur (Lab) Harold (D:10) 3 hydras The ghost of icemanSX the Brawler, an experienced TrMo of the Shining One (Lair:1) 6 death yaks (Lair:6) Erolcha (D:9) The ghost of Ghoradinn the Nimble, an experienced DrBe of Trog (D:8) The ghost of albenzo the Eclecticist, an experienced DEWz of Sif Muna (D:9) 2 hill giants Joseph (D:7) 2 lindwurms 5 elephants (Lair:8) Maurice (D:10) 6 black mambas An item mimic (D:7) 6 spiny frogs A fire drake (Lair:4) 5 komodo dragons A wandering mushroom (Lair:6) 2 trolls 8 blink frogs A deep elf mage (D:10) A griffon zombie (D:10) A spriggan (D:7) 2 basilisks 7 yaks 2 elephant slugs 2 wyverns 2 sharks 7 hippogriffs 2 hungry ghosts 4 nagas (Lair:5) Menkaure (D:6) 13 water moccasins 11 porcupines 3 giant goldfish A necrophage (D:10) 2 orc warriors 4 ogres 2 phantoms 2 ice beasts 3 black bears 8 crocodiles A boring beetle (Lair:6) 6 centaurs Sigmund (D:7) Duvessa (D:4) 6 giant slugs 13 giant frogs 6 scorpions 6 killer bees 4 wights A troll skeleton (D:7) A goliath beetle (D:8) Dowan (D:4) 3 crimson imps 4 hounds 9 iguanas 3 jellies A giant frog skeleton (D:8) 4 orc priests 3 big fish (Lair:5) A black bear skeleton (D:5) 10 sheep 8 orc wizards 11 worker ants A sky beast zombie (D:7) Ijyb (D:7) 34 green rats 18 adders 8 gnolls (D:5) 2 shadow imps (D:5) A white imp (D:9) 3 giant mites A goliath beetle zombie (D:6) 5 worms An adder skeleton (D:5) An orc skeleton (D:8) 2 giant eyeballs 5 giant geckos 32 orcs 2 ball pythons (D:1) 20 bats 2 bat zombies 3 giant cockroaches 9 goblins 18 hobgoblins 35 jackals An ooze (D:5) 24 quokkas 7 giant newts 11 kobolds 14 rats 504 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) 2 plants (Lair:6) 2 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 506 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Blomdor, the Minotaur Transmuter, began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 2/2 72 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Armour 73 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 5/23 MP: 2/2 838 | D:1 | Reached skill level 4 in Unarmed Combat 1121 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 25/29 MP: 3/3 1638 | D:2 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 2299 | D:3 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 2316 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 36/36 MP: 4/4 2544 | D:4 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 2551 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple 2569 | Temple | Became a worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh the Trickster 2717 | D:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 2748 | D:4 | Noticed Duvessa 2749 | D:4 | Noticed Dowan 2773 | D:4 | Killed Duvessa 2773 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat 2773 | D:4 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 20/45 MP: 4/4 2786 | D:4 | Killed Dowan 3006 | D:4 | Noticed a phantom 3020 | D:4 | Killed a phantom 3020 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 20/51 MP: 5/5 3286 | D:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Unarmed Combat 3683 | D:2 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's first power 4224 | D:4 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's second power 4473 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 59/59 MP: 6/6 4547 | D:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 4885 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 4907 | D:5 | Reached skill level 7 in Unarmed Combat 5018 | D:5 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's third power 5128 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 5819 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 52/69 MP: 6/6 5824 | D:5 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 5887 | D:5 | Reached skill level 8 in Unarmed Combat 5981 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 6365 | D:5 | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2). [potion of beneficial mutation] 6552 | D:5 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's fourth power 6805 | D:6 | Found a burning altar of Makhleb. 6813 | D:6 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 6867 | D:6 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 6980 | D:6 | Noticed Menkaure 7028 | D:5 | Reached skill level 9 in Unarmed Combat 7244 | D:6 | Killed Menkaure 7372 | D:7 | Noticed Joseph 7388 | D:7 | Killed Joseph 7388 | D:7 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 31/79 MP: 7/7 7684 | D:7 | Noticed Sigmund 7691 | D:7 | Killed Sigmund 7691 | D:7 | Reached skill level 10 in Unarmed Combat 7731 | D:7 | Noticed Ijyb 7749 | D:7 | Killed Ijyb 7917 | D:7 | Found Axkaoheq's Weapon Boutique. 7956 | D:7 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns 7994 | D:7 | Noticed a troll 8003 | D:7 | Killed a troll 8158 | D:7 | Killed a robe mimic 8158 | D:7 | Reached skill level 11 in Unarmed Combat 8204 | D:7 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin. 8460 | D:8 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's fifth power 8506 | D:8 | Noticed Ghoradinn's ghost (experienced DrBe) 8543 | D:7 | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +2). [potion of beneficial mutation] 8807 | D:8 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 90/90 MP: 7/7 9253 | D:9 | Found Phow's Distillery. 9254 | D:9 | Noticed albenzo's ghost (experienced DEWz) 9267 | D:9 | Killed albenzo's ghost 9275 | D:9 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 33 gold pieces 9275 | D:9 | Bought a potion of mutation for 27 gold pieces 9275 | D:9 | Bought a potion of restore abilities for 33 gold pieces 9275 | D:9 | Bought a potion of might for 27 gold pieces 9283 | D:9 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 9495 | D:9 | Reached skill level 12 in Unarmed Combat 9867 | D:9 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari. 9976 | D:9 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. 10000 | D:9 | Noticed a hill giant 10005 | D:9 | Killed a hill giant 10009 | D:9 | Noticed Erolcha 10020 | D:9 | Killed Erolcha 10025 | D:9 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 10098 | D:9 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting 10104 | D:9 | Identified the Almanac of the Torrid Entourage 10137 | D:9 | Learned a level 1 spell: Summon Butterflies 10493 | D:8 | Killed Ghoradinn's ghost 10664 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon 10669 | D:10 | Reached skill level 13 in Unarmed Combat 10686 | D:10 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 96/100 MP: 8/8 10975 | D:10 | Noticed Harold 10990 | D:10 | Killed Harold 11328 | D:10 | Noticed Maurice 11342 | D:10 | Killed Maurice 11357 | D:10 | Found a staircase to the Lair. 11421 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 11430 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 11450 | D:10 | Identified a scroll of acquirement 11503 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts 11626 | Lair:1 | Noticed icemanSX's ghost (experienced TrMo) 12095 | Lair:1 | Killed icemanSX's ghost 12161 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Unarmed Combat 12247 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging 12528 | Lair:1 | Lost mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +2). [potion of cure mutation] 12528 | Lair:1 | Lost mutation: You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2). [potion of cure mutation] 12540 | Lair:1 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 12565 | Lair:1 | Noticed Gastronok 12588 | Lair:1 | Killed Gastronok 12827 | Lair:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations 12844 | Lair:2 | Reached XP level 12. HP: 97/110 MP: 9/9 13907 | Lair:3 | Noticed a seven-headed hydra 13914 | Lair:3 | Killed a seven-headed hydra 13914 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Unarmed Combat 14898 | Lair:3 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 15252 | Lair:3 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 15419 | Lair:1 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 15432 | Lair:1 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 15736 | Lair:4 | Noticed a four-headed hydra 15744 | Lair:4 | Killed a four-headed hydra 16326 | Lair:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 16451 | Lair:4 | Noticed a five-headed hydra 16459 | Lair:4 | Killed a five-headed hydra 17045 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 16 in Unarmed Combat 17060 | Lair:5 | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit. 17063 | Lair:5 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 17161 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Shields 17525 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations 17862 | Lair:6 | Reached XP level 13. HP: 104/116 MP: 16/16 18499 | Lair:6 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 18734 | Lair:6 | Noticed Maud 18734 | Lair:6 | Found a staircase to the Shoals. 18982 | Lair:6 | Killed Maud 19829 | Lair:7 | You fall through a shaft! 19829 | Lair:8 | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts 19901 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 17 in Unarmed Combat 19905 | Lair:8 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 19910 | Lair:8 | Found a labyrinth entrance. 19947 | Lab | Entered a labyrinth 20267 | Lab | Got a smoking shield 20294 | Lab | Identified the +1 shield "Clykeom" {SInv Stlth++} (You found it in a labyrinth) 20536 | Lair:1 | Identified a +2 rod of the swarm (12/12) (You found it in a labyrinth) Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Unarmed | 109 | 89 | 344 | 858 | 237 || 1637 Invok: Draw One | | 1 | 1 | 3 | || 5 Peek at Two | | | 2 | 5 | 2 || 9 Evoke: Wand | | | 1 | 10 | 3 || 14 Deck | | | | 24 | || 24 Use: Scroll | 6 | | 16 | 11 | 5 || 38 Potion | 1 | 4 | 3 | 8 | 2 || 18 Stab: Invisible | | 1 | | 3 | || 4

Two other things I am wondering about are the overall usefulness of EV as a stat compared to AC, which I see is discussed elsewhere but which I'm still not really certain about, and whether fire or mottled dragon armor is better for a MiTm. Dodging can be frustratingly, well, dodgy and sometimes doesn't come through when I *really* need an attack to miss, whereas armor class seems to be a bit more reliable. Obviously, a mixture of both is ideal.

The only reason I went with Nemelex in particular is because I found this amulet of faith before choosing a god, and figured that since he provides quite possibly the most potentially powerful gifts it would be especially useful for him. Otherwise, I'd have gone for Jiyva as has been usual for me lately.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 01:58 by Abominae

Blade Hands does a ton of damage. To be honest, I would have never rolled a Tm without the intent of using Spider Form because that is why you pick Tm. Again, Blade Hands does a ton of damage, and I'm not trying to minimize that; however, plain UC does enough damage at every point in the game if you have spent your XP well enough (and if it ever doesn't, you're worshipping Nemelex). I would seriously put this decision up to "Do I want to play with Blade Hands?" because I don't think choosing one or the other is overly meaningful really. (especially on a character without other spells)

MDA & FDA are both incredibly good armours for this character. The best one is the one you find first.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 02:04 by Blomdor

I agree on unarmed damage being reliably decent to incredibly high from beginning to end, which is a large part of the reason why I love it. I completely forgot about spider form. The question I have for that is when a minotaur, with its all around awful casting aptitudes, should start aiming to be able to cast it. I figured it would not be practical to get both casting and melee to acceptable levels by killing early game monsters, but I'm also not sure when I should start the transition from one to the other.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 02:12 by TheDefiniteArticle

Two other things I am wondering about are the overall usefulness of EV as a stat compared to AC, which I see is discussed elsewhere but which I'm still not really certain about

I hear 1 AC is supposed to be slightly better than 1 EV, but in my experience it is best to treat them as equal when making in-game decisions. As a rule I prefer decent amounts of both. I would rather have 25 of each than 40 of one and 10 of the other.

and whether fire or mottled dragon armor is better for a MiTm.

Because you have good strength and excellent armour apt, I'm inclined to say the FDA. There are two important concerns. rC- of course, which is awful enough that you should basically commit one of your slots entirely to counteracting that penalty. And if one of them is already enchanted, that one is very likely the better choice.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 02:21 by Abominae

Minotuars -2 Transmutation aptitude is overshadowed by the fact all the other skills you train have great apts. The experience necessary to get Blade Hands online is a decent chunk, but it is nothing limiting. If you wanted to train it, I would probably pump it after I got better defenses and a bit more UC & Evocations. Basically, after the core of your skills are solid and you have XP to burn.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 03:54 by Blomdor

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.1-1-g650416f (webtiles) character file. Blomdor the Black Belt (Minotaur Transmuter) Turns: 31870, Time: 02:48:37 HP 158/158 AC 15 Str 18 XL: 17 Next: 72% MP 26/26 EV 32 Int 12 (13) God: Nemelex Xobeh [******] Gold 353 SH 13 Dex 22 Spells: 8 memorised, 6 levels left rFire + . . SeeInvis . - Unarmed rCold + + . Clarity . u - +3 leather armour "Febb" {+Blink rC+ rN+ Dex+2 Stlth++} rNeg + . . Conserve . o - +0 buckler rPois . rCorr . v - +2 hat {MR+} rElec . rRot . w - +2 cloak "Futul" {Dam+6} SustAb . . Spirit . z - +2 pair of fencer's gloves {EV+3 Dex+3 Acc+8} rMut . Warding . Q - +0 pair of boots Saprov . . . Stasis . e - amulet of faith MR ++... k - ring of Lesser Demons {rC+ Str+2 Int+3 Dam+2} f - ring of protection from fire @: very resistant to hostile enchantments, stealthy A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2, repulsion field 1 a: Draw One, Peek at Two, Triple Draw, Deal Four, Stack Five, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink You are on level 15 of the Dungeon. You worship Nemelex Xobeh. Nemelex Xobeh is exalted by your worship. You are hungry. You have visited 4 branches of the dungeon, and seen 28 of its levels. You have also visited: Labyrinth. You have collected 2579 gold pieces. You have spent 2226 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Armour o - a +0 buckler (worn) u - the +3 leather armour "Febb" (worn) {+Blink rC+ rN+ Dex+2 Stlth++} (You bought it in a shop on level 15 of the Dungeon) It affects your dexterity (+2). It protects you from cold. It protects you from negative energy. It lets you blink. It makes you much more stealthy. v - a +2 hat of magic resistance (worn) w - the +2 cloak "Futul" (worn) {Dam+6} (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon) It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+6). z - the +2 pair of fencer's gloves (worn) {EV+3 Dex+3 Acc+8} (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon) It affects your evasion (+3). It affects your dexterity (+3). It affects your accuracy with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+8). D - the cursed +2 shield of the Volcano {+Blink MR++ Stlth+} (You bought it in a shop on level 15 of the Dungeon) It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It lets you blink. It makes you much more stealthy. It has a curse placed upon it. Q - a +0 pair of boots (worn) Magical devices y - a wand of digging (15) B - a wand of draining {zapped: 2} I - a wand of cold {zapped: 2} V - a wand of disintegration (11) Comestibles g - 15 bread rations Scrolls d - 3 scrolls of teleportation i - 7 scrolls of remove curse p - 2 scrolls of fog q - a scroll of magic mapping F - a scroll of fear Z - a scroll of enchant weapon II Jewellery e - an amulet of faith (around neck) f - a ring of protection from fire (left hand) j - an uncursed ring of see invisible k - the ring of Lesser Demons (right hand) {rC+ Str+2 Int+3 Dam+2} (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts) [ring of protection from cold] It affects your strength (+2). It affects your intelligence (+3). It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+2). l - an uncursed ring of protection from cold m - a ring of protection from magic s - an uncursed amulet of rage N - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation O - an uncursed ring of flight P - an uncursed ring of protection from magic W - an uncursed ring of poison resistance Potions n - 20 potions of curing A - 3 potions of heal wounds E - 2 potions of agility J - a potion of might R - 2 potions of berserk rage T - 3 potions of restore abilities Y - 3 potions of haste Books t - a book of the Sky Spells Type Level Flight Charms/Air 3 Airstrike Air 4 Silence Hexes/Air 5 Deflect Missiles Charms/Air 6 Conjure Ball Lightning Conjuration/Air 6 Tornado Air 9 M - a book of Hinderance Spells Type Level *Confusing Touch Hexes 1 Confuse Hexes 3 Petrify Transmutation/Earth 4 Leda's Liquefaction Hexes/Earth 4 Metabolic Englaciation Hexes/Ice 5 Summon Mana Viper Hexes/Summoning 5 Miscellaneous a - an ornate deck of destruction {the Spark} b - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1} c - a legendary deck of escape {Swap, drawn: 1} h - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 1} x - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1} C - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 1} L - an ornate deck of destruction {drawn: 1} S - a lamp of fire U - an ornate deck of destruction {drawn: 1} Rods K - a +9 rod of clouds (11/11) (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth) Skills: - Level 15.9 Fighting - Level 3.0 Armour + Level 15.5 Dodging - Level 5.0 Shields * Level 19.6 Unarmed Combat + Level 2.7 Spellcasting + Level 2.8 Transmutations - Level 10.0 Evocations You have 6 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Beastly Appendage Trmt #..... 10% 1 #...... b - Summon Butterflies Summ #....... 28% 1 #...... c - Stoneskin Trmt/Erth #......... 21% 2 ###.... d - Confusing Touch Hex #......... 28% 1 #...... e - Spider Form Trmt/Pois #......... 43% 3 ####... f - Blade Hands Trmt #......... 99% 5 ######. g - Summon Small Mammal Summ #... 28% 1 #...... h - Animate Skeleton Necr N/A 28% 1 #...... Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (15/15) Temple (1/1) D:4 Orc (4/4) D:9 Elf (0/3) Orc:3 Lair (8/8) D:10 Shoals (0/5) Lair:6 Snake (0/5) Lair:5 Slime (0/6) Lair:8 Vaults (0/5) D:13 Depths (0/5) D:15 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Fedhas Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Sif Muna Vehumet Xom Zin The Shining One Shops: D:7 ( D:9 ! D:12 %( D:13 ! D:15 [ Orc:4 !!=%: Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.* You have a pair of horns on your head.* You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +2). Message History Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) You start removing your armour. You continue taking off your +3 ring mail. x5 You finish taking off your +3 ring mail. You start putting on your armour. You continue putting on the +3 leather armour "Febb" {+Blink rC+ rN+ Dex+2 Stlth++}. x3 You finish putting on the +3 leather armour "Febb" {+Blink rC+ rN+ Dex+2 Stlth++}. You feel agile. Unknown command. Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) You drop a +3 ring mail. You offer a prayer to Nemelex Xobeh. The +3 ring mail glows slightly and disappears. Nemelex Xobeh is exalted by your worship. Wear which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. ##...'.≈#≈.'. #..##.§#§.### #..##§≈≈≈.######+### #..##§≈≈§..........# #..##..............#### #..####''#............. #..####..#..........≈≈≈ #........+..........≈≈#≈ #........+.....@....≈≈≈≈ #..###.###.............. ##..# #.# ##'########### ....###.####.# .#........##.# ...####......# .### ##++#### .# .# There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures A fire giant (D:15) Maud (Lair:6) Gastronok (Lair:1) A minotaur (Lab) Fannar (Orc:2) Harold (D:10) Nessos (Orc:3) An ogre mage (D:13) 4 hydras The ghost of icemanSX the Brawler, an experienced TrMo of the Shining One (Lair:1) 6 death yaks (Lair:6) 2 tengu warriors 2 centaur warriors 5 orc high priests (Orc:4) Erolcha (D:9) The ghost of Ghoradinn the Nimble, an experienced DrBe of Trog (D:8) A sun demon (Orc:4) The ghost of albenzo the Eclecticist, an experienced DEWz of Sif Muna (D:9) 2 unseen horrors 12 wizards (D:12) 6 hill giants Joseph (D:7) 7 orc knights 6 lindwurms 8 cyclopes 5 elephants (Lair:8) 2 manticores A griffon (D:14) 2 orc sorcerers Maurice (D:10) 6 black mambas An item mimic (D:7) A yaktaur (D:15) 2 gargoyles 6 spiny frogs A fire drake (Lair:4) A spriggan druid (Lair:8) A tengu conjurer (D:15) 5 komodo dragons A wandering mushroom (Lair:6) 8 giant fireflies (Lair:8) 4 trolls 3 two-headed ogres (D:13) A fire vortex (D:14) Sonja (D:13) 3 ravens 8 blink frogs 3 grizzly bears (Lair:8) 2 deep elf magi A vampire (D:14) A griffon zombie (D:10) 10 spriggans 3 basilisks 12 yaks 2 shadows 2 elephant slugs 3 wyverns 2 sharks 5 vampire mosquitoes A warg (Orc:1) 10 hippogriffs 3 hungry ghosts 7 ugly things 15 wolves (Lair:8) 4 nagas (Lair:5) 6 swamp worms (D:13) Menkaure (D:6) A mottled dragon (D:11) 13 water moccasins 11 porcupines 3 giant goldfish A necrophage (D:10) 35 orc warriors 8 ogres A sky beast (D:14) A yellow wasp (D:12) 2 phantoms 6 ice beasts 10 black bears 12 crocodiles A boring beetle (Lair:6) 15 centaurs A manticore skeleton (D:11) Sigmund (D:7) Duvessa (D:4) 2 big kobolds A brain worm (D:15) 12 giant slugs A lava worm (D:14) 17 giant frogs A cyclops zombie (D:14) 7 scorpions 9 killer bees 4 wights 2 troll skeletons 2 lava snakes (D:14) 3 goliath beetles Dowan (D:4) 5 crimson imps 6 hounds 9 iguanas 8 jellies 3 giant frog skeletons 31 orc priests 3 big fish (Lair:5) A black bear skeleton (D:5) 12 sheep 27 orc wizards 12 worker ants A sky beast zombie (D:7) Ijyb (D:7) A mottled dragon skeleton (D:15) 40 green rats 22 adders 8 gnolls (D:5) 2 shadow imps (D:5) A white imp (D:9) 3 giant mites 2 goliath beetle zombies 19 worms An iguana zombie (D:11) An adder skeleton (D:5) An orc skeleton (D:8) 3 giant eyeballs 5 giant geckos 159 orcs 2 ball pythons (D:1) 20 bats 2 bat zombies 3 giant cockroaches 17 goblins 21 hobgoblins 35 jackals 4 oozes 25 quokkas 7 giant newts 17 kobolds 14 rats 3 plants 973 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills) A vampire mosquito (Orc:4) 2 orc warriors (Orc:4) 2 orc priests (Orc:4) 5 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) An unseen horror (D:15) A yak (Lair:8) An orc (D:14) A kobold (D:12) A fungus (Lair:8) 3 plants 8 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 986 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Blomdor, the Minotaur Transmuter, began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 2/2 72 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Armour 73 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 5/23 MP: 2/2 838 | D:1 | Reached skill level 4 in Unarmed Combat 1121 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 25/29 MP: 3/3 1638 | D:2 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 2299 | D:3 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 2316 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 36/36 MP: 4/4 2544 | D:4 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 2551 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple 2569 | Temple | Became a worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh the Trickster 2717 | D:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 2748 | D:4 | Noticed Duvessa 2749 | D:4 | Noticed Dowan 2773 | D:4 | Killed Duvessa 2773 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat 2773 | D:4 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 20/45 MP: 4/4 2786 | D:4 | Killed Dowan 3006 | D:4 | Noticed a phantom 3020 | D:4 | Killed a phantom 3020 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 20/51 MP: 5/5 3286 | D:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Unarmed Combat 3683 | D:2 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's first power 4224 | D:4 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's second power 4473 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 59/59 MP: 6/6 4547 | D:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 4885 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 4907 | D:5 | Reached skill level 7 in Unarmed Combat 5018 | D:5 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's third power 5128 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 5819 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 52/69 MP: 6/6 5824 | D:5 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 5887 | D:5 | Reached skill level 8 in Unarmed Combat 5981 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 6365 | D:5 | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2). [potion of beneficial mutation] 6552 | D:5 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's fourth power 6805 | D:6 | Found a burning altar of Makhleb. 6813 | D:6 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 6867 | D:6 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 6980 | D:6 | Noticed Menkaure 7028 | D:5 | Reached skill level 9 in Unarmed Combat 7244 | D:6 | Killed Menkaure 7372 | D:7 | Noticed Joseph 7388 | D:7 | Killed Joseph 7388 | D:7 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 31/79 MP: 7/7 7684 | D:7 | Noticed Sigmund 7691 | D:7 | Killed Sigmund 7691 | D:7 | Reached skill level 10 in Unarmed Combat 7731 | D:7 | Noticed Ijyb 7749 | D:7 | Killed Ijyb 7917 | D:7 | Found Axkaoheq's Weapon Boutique. 7956 | D:7 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns 7994 | D:7 | Noticed a troll 8003 | D:7 | Killed a troll 8158 | D:7 | Killed a robe mimic 8158 | D:7 | Reached skill level 11 in Unarmed Combat 8204 | D:7 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin. 8460 | D:8 | Acquired Nemelex Xobeh's fifth power 8506 | D:8 | Noticed Ghoradinn's ghost (experienced DrBe) 8543 | D:7 | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +2). [potion of beneficial mutation] 8807 | D:8 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 90/90 MP: 7/7 9253 | D:9 | Found Phow's Distillery. 9254 | D:9 | Noticed albenzo's ghost (experienced DEWz) 9267 | D:9 | Killed albenzo's ghost 9275 | D:9 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 33 gold pieces 9275 | D:9 | Bought a potion of mutation for 27 gold pieces 9275 | D:9 | Bought a potion of restore abilities for 33 gold pieces 9275 | D:9 | Bought a potion of might for 27 gold pieces 9283 | D:9 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 9495 | D:9 | Reached skill level 12 in Unarmed Combat 9867 | D:9 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari. 9976 | D:9 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. 10000 | D:9 | Noticed a hill giant 10005 | D:9 | Killed a hill giant 10009 | D:9 | Noticed Erolcha 10020 | D:9 | Killed Erolcha 10025 | D:9 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 10098 | D:9 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting 10104 | D:9 | Identified the Almanac of the Torrid Entourage 10137 | D:9 | Learned a level 1 spell: Summon Butterflies 10493 | D:8 | Killed Ghoradinn's ghost 10664 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon 10669 | D:10 | Reached skill level 13 in Unarmed Combat 10686 | D:10 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 96/100 MP: 8/8 10975 | D:10 | Noticed Harold 10990 | D:10 | Killed Harold 11328 | D:10 | Noticed Maurice 11342 | D:10 | Killed Maurice 11357 | D:10 | Found a staircase to the Lair. 11421 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 11430 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 11450 | D:10 | Identified a scroll of acquirement 11503 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts 11626 | Lair:1 | Noticed icemanSX's ghost (experienced TrMo) 12095 | Lair:1 | Killed icemanSX's ghost 12161 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Unarmed Combat 12247 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging 12528 | Lair:1 | Lost mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +2). [potion of cure mutation] 12528 | Lair:1 | Lost mutation: You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2). [potion of cure mutation] 12540 | Lair:1 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 12565 | Lair:1 | Noticed Gastronok 12588 | Lair:1 | Killed Gastronok 12827 | Lair:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations 12844 | Lair:2 | Reached XP level 12. HP: 97/110 MP: 9/9 13907 | Lair:3 | Noticed a seven-headed hydra 13914 | Lair:3 | Killed a seven-headed hydra 13914 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Unarmed Combat 14898 | Lair:3 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 15252 | Lair:3 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 15419 | Lair:1 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 15432 | Lair:1 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 15736 | Lair:4 | Noticed a four-headed hydra 15744 | Lair:4 | Killed a four-headed hydra 16326 | Lair:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 16451 | Lair:4 | Noticed a five-headed hydra 16459 | Lair:4 | Killed a five-headed hydra 17045 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 16 in Unarmed Combat 17060 | Lair:5 | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit. 17063 | Lair:5 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 17161 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Shields 17525 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations 17862 | Lair:6 | Reached XP level 13. HP: 104/116 MP: 16/16 18499 | Lair:6 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 18734 | Lair:6 | Noticed Maud 18734 | Lair:6 | Found a staircase to the Shoals. 18982 | Lair:6 | Killed Maud 19829 | Lair:7 | You fall through a shaft! 19829 | Lair:8 | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts 19901 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 17 in Unarmed Combat 19905 | Lair:8 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 19910 | Lair:8 | Found a labyrinth entrance. 19947 | Lab | Entered a labyrinth 20267 | Lab | Got a smoking shield 20294 | Lab | Identified the +1 shield "Clykeom" {SInv Stlth++} (You found it in a labyrinth) 20536 | Lair:1 | Identified a +2 rod of the swarm (12/12) (You found it in a labyrinth) 20768 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 5 in Shields 21091 | Lair:7 | Got a pitted silver ring 21095 | Lair:7 | Identified Ofurutech's Papyrus of the Oath 21109 | Lair:7 | Identified the ring of Lesser Demons {rC+ Str+2 Int+3 Dam+2} (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts) 21110 | Lair:7 | Identified a +8 rod of clouds (9/9) (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth) 21269 | Lair:8 | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits. 21344 | Lair:8 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 22053 | Lair:8 | Reached XP level 14. HP: 124/124 MP: 20/20 22785 | Orc:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines 22900 | Orc:1 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 23178 | Orc:2 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 23377 | Orc:2 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 23502 | Orc:2 | Noticed Fannar 23514 | Orc:2 | Killed Fannar 23514 | Orc:2 | Reached skill level 18 in Unarmed Combat 23698 | Orc:2 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 23738 | Orc:3 | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls. 23813 | Orc:3 | Noticed Nessos 23831 | Orc:3 | Killed Nessos 24233 | Orc:3 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 24796 | Orc:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines 24836 | Orc:4 | Found Klimefe's Distillery. 24845 | Orc:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 24859 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of berserk rage for 42 gold pieces 25619 | Orc:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 25736 | Orc:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 25809 | Orc:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 25944 | Orc:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 26078 | Orc:4 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 26103 | Orc:4 | Found Dysem's Book Emporium. 26104 | Orc:4 | Found Vaoziogriff's Distillery. 26104 | Orc:4 | Found Thriuw's Food Shoppe. 26105 | Orc:4 | Found Psuad's Jewellery Emporium. 26125 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 39 gold pieces 26125 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of curing for 26 gold pieces 26125 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of curing for 26 gold pieces 26125 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of curing for 26 gold pieces 26125 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of curing for 26 gold pieces 26125 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of berserk rage for 39 gold pieces 26127 | Orc:4 | Bought an uncursed ring of poison resistance for 340 gold pieces 26131 | Orc:4 | Bought a book of Transfigurations for 770 gold pieces 26135 | Orc:4 | Learned a level 2 spell: Stoneskin 26137 | Orc:4 | Learned a level 1 spell: Confusing Touch 26539 | Lair:1 | Learned a level 3 spell: Spider Form 26545 | Lair:1 | Learned a level 5 spell: Blade Hands 26768 | D:11 | Learned a level 1 spell: Summon Small Mammal 26770 | D:11 | Learned a level 1 spell: Animate Skeleton 26801 | D:11 | Got a twisted robe 27451 | D:11 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 27500 | D:12 | Found Soraclo's Food Shoppe. 27502 | D:12 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin. 27616 | D:12 | Identified the +2 robe of the Suburbs {Str+2 Dex-3 Int+3} (You found it on level 11 of the Dungeon) 27653 | D:12 | Found Etiulam's Weapon Shop. 28047 | D:12 | Got an encrusted cloak 28048 | D:12 | Identified the +2 cloak "Futul" {Dam+6} (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon) 28106 | D:12 | Reached skill level 19 in Unarmed Combat 29334 | D:13 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns 29374 | D:13 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 29376 | D:13 | Reached XP level 15. HP: 109/138 MP: 19/23 29377 | D:13 | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting 29377 | D:13 | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations 29377 | D:13 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 115/149 MP: 17/25 29381 | D:13 | Found a gate to the Vaults. 29388 | D:13 | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +2). [helix card] 29451 | D:13 | Found Casokoi's Distillery. 29554 | D:13 | Bought a potion of curing for 26 gold pieces 29554 | D:13 | Bought a potion of haste for 91 gold pieces 29554 | D:13 | Bought a potion of curing for 26 gold pieces 29554 | D:13 | Bought a potion of curing for 26 gold pieces 29554 | D:13 | Bought a potion of curing for 26 gold pieces 29586 | D:13 | Noticed Sonja 29598 | D:13 | Killed Sonja 29740 | D:13 | Reached XP level 17. HP: 156/156 MP: 26/26 30078 | D:14 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 30080 | D:14 | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging 30081 | D:14 | Paralysed by a potion of paralysis for 6 turns 30203 | D:14 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 30960 | D:15 | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon 31099 | D:15 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 31322 | D:15 | Received a gift from Nemelex Xobeh 31467 | D:15 | Found a staircase to the Depths. 31852 | D:15 | Found Orakh's Antique Armour Shop. 31857 | D:15 | Bought a smelly leather armour for 245 gold pieces 31857 | D:15 | Bought a steaming shield for 332 gold pieces 31858 | D:15 | Identified the +3 leather armour "Febb" {+Blink rC+ rN+ Dex+2 Stlth++} (You bought it in a shop on level 15 of the Dungeon) 31858 | D:15 | Identified the cursed +2 shield of the Volcano {+Blink MR++ Stlth+} (You bought it in a shop on level 15 of the Dungeon) Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Unarmed | 109 | 89 | 344 | 858 | 1021 | 274 || 2695 Rod | | | | | 83 | || 83 Invok: Draw One | | 1 | 1 | 3 | 23 | 3 || 31 Peek at Two | | | 2 | 5 | 15 | 4 || 26 Triple Draw | | | | | 4 | 4 || 8 Abil: Evoke Flight | | | | | 2 | || 2 Evoke: Wand | | | 1 | 10 | 10 | 9 || 30 Deck | | | | 24 | | || 24 Use: Scroll | 6 | | 16 | 11 | 14 | 3 || 50 Potion | 1 | 4 | 3 | 8 | 7 | || 23 Stab: Invisible | | 1 | | 3 | | || 4 Confused | | | | | | 1 || 1

What about shields? My experience is that a buckler's always worth the 5 or so skill points in shields to use; I don't know the specifics behind it, but every single time I notice the benefit to my survivability such that I've become very fond of them and will use even a standard +0 specimen as soon as I find one. However, I've found this nice medium shield and am wondering if 5 more would be worth the investment. What would the penalties on unarmed combat and spellcasting be for a medium shield at 10 skill on a minotaur?

As an aside, that's a damn nice cloak. I might have to switch to preservation if I find it for sheer practicality reasons, but losing that slaying bonus would not be fun. What do you guys think?

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 03:59 by and into

Blomdor wrote:Two other things I am wondering about are the overall usefulness of EV as a stat compared to AC, which I see is discussed elsewhere but which I'm still not really certain about, and whether fire or mottled dragon armor is better for a MiTm. Dodging can be frustratingly, well, dodgy and sometimes doesn't come through when I *really* need an attack to miss, whereas armor class seems to be a bit more reliable. Obviously, a mixture of both is ideal.

A simple and mostly true guideline is that AC is roughly equivalent to EV, assuming your AC is not really low. Having decent AC helps your damage not be too "spikey." However, once you have decent AC relative to the nastiness of monsters around you, then 1 AC roughly equals 1 EV.

Minotaur has good HP which helps.

This would be more of my own personal goal/preference, not based on any scientific or rigorous analysis, but on a dodging-centric dude, I'd really want as close to 20 AC as I could get by the time I was doing Vaults. (Obviously, the more, and the earlier, the better.) So long as you have around that much AC or more, I think you can generally go by the equation "1 EV roughly equals 1 AC" all the way to Zot.

However, do note that fireballs ignore EV but check AC. Some other attacks do, but fireballs are the most dangerous (in terms of damage and prevalence) such attack that you are going to come across in the mandatory areas of the game.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 04:33 by crate

never use a buckler if you are unarmed
it removes your offhand punch and slows your attack; you lose roughly 1/5 of your damage if you are unarmed and use a buckler, and bucklers never give enough survivability to offset that

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 04:35 by Blomdor

Well, I died in the flaming horrific inescapable hellhole that is the Depths now, so it's a good thing that I didn't make a character thread. Boy, I remember the days when it was just yaktaurs and stone giants. Good times. Now there are rakshasas teaming up with liches to duplicate ice fiends and hell sentinels. Oh, boy!

Exactly one scroll of blinking the whole game, which was use ID'd. That's usually what gets me in Depths. No scrolls of blinking. Escape decks kept giving me nothing but stuff like "Swap". Yes, I want to switch places with the ice fiend and land next to the two hell sentinels. Yeah. I don't think I'm ever going with Nemelex again. This deck stuff never comes through when I need it to.

What kind of XL level should one be in Depths? I'm starting to feel like it's 27 or you're practically dead. It's nuts down there. I wouldn't call it remotely unfair or anything, just *incredibly* more dangerous than it ever was when it was merged with the main dungeon and it keeps catching me off guard. All it takes is one or two turns for things to get completely out of hand. Every level reminds me of Vaults:5, honestly. Similar monster generation and difficult layouts.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 04:58 by Kismet

Blomdor wrote:Escape decks kept giving me nothing but stuff like "Swap".

Are you stacking 5?

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 05:33 by Blomdor

Using the ability that takes three and lets you pick one. I tend to forget about stack five.

This game was a ton of fun, and yes the death was entirely my fault. When am I going to learn to start running as soon as I see a lich and a rakshasa on the same screen? When am I going to learn not to back myself into an inescapable corridor? And *when* am I going to learn to take more time and not less thinking about my options when I am in a bad situation?

I wonder how long it took you better players to learn this stuff. I feel like an idiot. : P

It was a bit of a waste to pick Tm anyway because I never did end up with the skills to use any useful spells, even after training spellcasting and transmutations for quite some time. I was picking it for blade hands, and unarmed combat does monstrous damage without any fancy buffs added on, so I've decided that picking the class just for such things is a little silly. I therefore learned something and/or modified my strategies, which is always a victory in a roguelike such as this even if you lose a character in the process.

I have half a dozen or more combos that I really, absolutely would love to win with, for the coolness of them and for uniqueness or interesting mechanics involved. OpMo, DsMo, TrMo, Mu-anything, Og-anything, HaDK (the *big* one, the very first combo I ever played with and I was smitten with it from the start), any Sk...

OpMo has this wonderful quirk of having seriously brutal early game melee that surprises me every time I see it. I suppose it's constriction being very good stuff. They just snap necks left and right and demolish the D:1 dungeon trash like they were trolls. I just can't get one to Lair, because that 1 AC becomes a huge problem when things get more serious. I feel like if it could just get lucky or survive long enough to get a decent protection or EV ring it could get somewhere with a lot of care and focus.

DsMo can be very strong or very difficult at any given point in the game depending on what mutations one gets and when. Essentially the only thing that keeps Ds from being my favorite race to play is the existence of certain annoying possible mutations that seem to do more harm than good or are just tedious to mess with; in the former camp, there's antennae, which just isn't worth the helm slot IMO, and the latter includes demonic guardian; unreliable, messy, difficult to work with, and often not worth its mutation slot e.g. if you end up with only one level for a long while and get little but nigh-useless imps to help you. Now, powered by death...there's a good mutation. All of the demonspawn that I have played that got beyond Orc or so have had PBD. The regeneration one obtains mid-battle as enemies are turned into corpses is unreal. Really great stuff. I'd say good things about most any other possible mutation as well, I think, just not the aforementioned duo. I don't have anything against thin skeletal structure because I'm generally fine with trading strength for dexterity, especially on a monk.

TrMo demolishes and eats the early game like an all-you-can-eat buffet but starts having survivability problems around Lair and especially beyond it. It's also a bummer having to pass up good loot that would be hugely helpful for most any other character, which is most likely going to be a regular occurrence. I've gotten a rune with one of these IIRC, but that's the farthest I've gotten.

HaDK might not be as hard for me as it used to be now that I am much more used to dodging oriented, lightly armed characters. I kept trying to play one exactly as I would a hill orc, and it never worked very well. I will be a very, very happy person the day I win with one of these.

Hope no one minds the above jabbering. I just felt like typing some thoughts out before bed.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 13:30 by Lasty

Keep in mind also that it's fine to cast spider form at 40-50% fail. Your spellpower will be so low that miscasts don't matter at all, and the power boost from being a spider is absolutely worth it.

Oh, and the +2 cloak of +6 damage is better than preservation pretty much every time.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 16:19 by Sandman25

40-50% fail makes Spider Form useless as escape tool so I usually try to get it to 10-15% ASAP.

Also "preservation vs damage" really depends on character - for example, high level UC Tr does not need the boost while it can greatly benefit from scrolls of blinking and potions of haste.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 16:24 by duvessa

Lasty wrote:Keep in mind also that it's fine to cast spider form at 40-50% fail. Your spellpower will be so low that miscasts don't matter at all

Uh, what? Spell power has no effect on miscasts whatsoever.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 16:26 by Blomdor

Alright. Good to know that someone much better than I am at the game agrees on that. Now I will not feel so bad in the future for not making that trade : P. Thankee. In this case, though, I *already* had a small but nice slaying bonus from the randart ring I was wearing, and I was a minotaur of all things with a lot of unarmed combat, so damage was not exactly something I was lacking. Preservation wasn't a big deal, either, though, because the game was not giving me all that many consumables to be burned. I found one scroll of blinking in the entire game, on Depths:2, and used it in the process of IDing it. Even teleportation was pretty scarce. Honestly, though, I really just should not have been mucking around in Depths at all as early as I was. Just got greedy for dragon hide, when the +3 leather I had was fine. Snake would have been easy enough. Oh well.

Not that you find +2 cloaks with slaying bonuses very often...

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 17:33 by Lasty

duvessa wrote:Uh, what? Spell power has no effect on miscasts whatsoever.

Ah, you're right. I checked this once before, I drew the wrong conclusions from spl-cast.cc:

Code:: // All spell failures give a bit of magical radiation. // Failure is a function of power squared multiplied by how // badly you missed the spell. High power spells can be // quite nasty: 9 * 9 * 90 / 500 = 15 points of // contamination! int nastiness = spell_difficulty(spell) * spell_difficulty(spell) * fail + 250; const int cont_points = 2 * nastiness; // miscasts are uncontrolled contaminate_player(cont_points, true); MiscastEffect(&you, NON_MONSTER, spell, spell_difficulty(spell), fail);

and spl-miscast.cc:

Code:: if (level != -1) severity = level; else { severity = (pow * fail * (10 + pow) / 7 * WILD_MAGIC_NASTINESS) / 100; #if defined(DEBUG_DIAGNOSTICS) || defined(DEBUG_MISCAST) mprf(MSGCH_DIAGNOSTICS, "'%s' miscast power: %d", spell != SPELL_NO_SPELL ? spell_title(spell) : spelltype_short_name(sp_type), severity); #endif if (random2(40) > severity && random2(40) > severity) { if (target->is_player()) canned_msg(MSG_NOTHING_HAPPENS); return; } severity /= 100; severity = random2(severity); if (severity > 3) severity = 3; else if (severity < 0) severity = 0; }

So yeah, pow here is the spell level, not the spell power, and if I am now reading this right, if you cast a level 3 spell with a 50% failure rate, you have some chance of getting severity 3 miscasts; with even a 25% fail chance you risk severity 2 miscast effects. I haven't ever had that happen, as far as I can recall, so I think I must still be missing something about how this works.

Edit: FWIW, I usually do cast spider form at 40-50% for quite a while before investing further in it, and I've never been harmed by miscasts or overcontamination. Maybe I'm just incredibly lucky, but for whatever reason, this doesn't seem to actually be particularly dangerous.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 22:38 by duvessa

No, getting a level 3 miscast from a 50% fail rate spider form is quite normal, if rare (getting a level 2 miscast is not rare).

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 22:55 by tasonir

While I don't generally use spider form as often as I should, when I do I generally get it to 30/34% fail before casting it, which is also when it turns white (lower miscast severity). Depends on your race int and aptitudes, but this generally only takes 1-2 levels in transmutations, or you could just train poison which is probably cheaper, but doesn't help with ice form/blade hands.

As long as you aren't a mummy it should be pretty trivial to have spider form at 30% by level 4 or at least level 5 if you couldn't train poison beforehand.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 22:57 by Sandman25

Unfortunately color is not indicator of miscast severity, I got a serious miscast from grey spell.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 23:00 by bcadren

Sandman25 wrote:Unfortunately color is not indicator of miscast severity, I got a serious miscast from grey spell.

Really? How do you know ahead of time then?

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 23:12 by tasonir

Color IS an indicator of miscast severity. It is NOT a guarantee of miscast severity - white means you will almost always get miscast 0's, but it doesn't mean you have absolutely no chance of miscast 1. I don't know any details beyond that, or what the cutoff is to turn from yellow to white, but the color does indicate your miscast severity. I will cast yellow spells if needed, higher level spells tend to stay yellow longer, but if it's something you're using often, get it to white when you can. Spider form would be fine to cast at yellow, but it's also only level 3 and very cheap to get it to white, so I usually do. I'd be more likely to cast a 10% fail yellow blade hands for a while, because it's higher level and so stays yellow longer. Still, if it's at 10% and yellow, about 1 more level in transmutations will probably get you a 6% fail white spell.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 23:31 by Sandman25

I would not call it indicator, it is closer to "rough estimate". Sure, you don't want to cast red spells but still it is not optimal to stop training magic schools as soon as you reach grey color because the "no more miscast of 1+ severity" value is unknown (unless you like source code diving).

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 23:42 by duvessa

Grey is less than 0.1% chance of a severity 2+ miscast, yellow 0.5%, light red 2.5%.

Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 23:58 by Patashu

duvessa wrote:Grey is less than 0.1% chance of a severity 2+ miscast, yellow 0.5%, light red 2.5%.

To clarify - This is 0.1% / 0.5% / 2.5% assuming that you miscast to begin with (e.g. also multiply by the chance of miscasting), or is it 0.1% / 0.5% / 2.5% every time you cast the spell?

Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 00:17 by ackack

The issue with Spider Form failure isn't miscast penalties, it's losing turns trying and failing to turn into a spider. Personally I find Spider Form to be such a huge boost to survivability that I'll generally train a little extra Tm (and a level or two of Poison Magic) to get it more reliable. This is generally worth more than the very modest UC boost you'll get from the same xp invested there.

Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 01:04 by duvessa

Patashu wrote:
duvessa wrote:Grey is less than 0.1% chance of a severity 2+ miscast, yellow 0.5%, light red 2.5%.

To clarify - This is 0.1% / 0.5% / 2.5% assuming that you miscast to begin with (e.g. also multiply by the chance of miscasting), or is it 0.1% / 0.5% / 2.5% every time you cast the spell?

Assuming you miscast to begin with.

Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 11:59 by Lasty

Thanks for the corrections, all -- apparently I've just been extremely lucky. I tested about 70 casts at 52% fail in wiz mode and was poisoned by miscasts 3 times, petrified once, and confused once. That's obviously too dangerous to be doing, so please completely disregard my mistaken advice to cast spider form w/o getting the fail rate to a more reasonable level.

Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 12:38 by DracheReborn

never mind, already posted by others :oops:

But yeah miscast severity is determined by spell level and failure rate, color only indicates chance of getting severity 2 miscast.

Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 16:55 by damiac

crate wrote:never use a buckler if you are unarmed
it removes your offhand punch and slows your attack; you lose roughly 1/5 of your damage if you are unarmed and use a buckler, and bucklers never give enough survivability to offset that

Do you mean that it's a bad idea to use any shield with unarmed, or just bucklers in particular? I'm running a DrWn who's ended up using unarmed, and I'm debating whether or not I should use a shield (assuming I even find one with a decent ego).

Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 17:25 by Siegurt

Bucklers are particularly bad because they have the worst trade-off in terms of offense for defense, Shields and large shields, while giving approximately the same offense malus, give a much larger defense bonus.

I often use shields (and sometimes large shields on large races, training 25 shields sounds awful, but 15 is within the realm of reasonable) with unarmed, particularly if I find a decently branded shield, but it really depends on whether you find a decent shield, and how your defenses look without one.

Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 18:00 by tasonir

I like shields with unarmed, but it can be a lower priority, particularly if you're going to be using blade hands, which will meld it anyways. Sometimes I'll still use a shield and blade hands as the shield will protect you when you need more defenses and you can only use blade hands when you're committing to a fight. But that kind of an "sometimes" improvement generally isn't your first priority. Shields are generally better on large races, with trolls being the poster child(ren) for using a shield. Always use a shield on trolls imho (some disagree).

Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 21:32 by XuaXua

What really sucks is getting a randart shield with some great environmental protection (rF, rC), and relying on that, but still casting Blade Hands and forgetting where the protection came from.

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