Rods: do you use them?


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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 21:20

Rods: do you use them?

What the subject says.

I've only rarely tried to use them, and I found it difficult to justify the turns of equipping them and using them unless I was already out of other resources. But I suspect this is because I haven't figured out which ones are better for my characters and how to best implement them.

So do you use them? Which ones, and what do you do to make sure using them is worth your while?
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 21:23

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Also, can someone explain how these things work? I rarely see one but when I do, I don't know what to do with it, game explains nothing.
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Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 21:29

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I rarely find them. In the win and both near wins I had, I found 0 rods. Never saw a one. I suspect they are much more common in the extended part of the game. As for what they are worth, well that depends largely on how much evocations you have (I think, correct me if this wrong.) I think they range from ridiculously bad to awesome. I've seen some games where a person had 8-9 rods and was blasting everything with them over and over. That seems like the exceptional game and not how I play crawl but seemed cool at the time. I'd say use at your own risk as your mileage may vary greatly from game to game.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 21:40

Re: Rods: do you use them?

They are fairly uniformly rare, there isn't really much of a difference in floor trash throughout the game, except that certain things won't spawn in the first couple of floors. Some rods are very useful for specific builds (deflect missiles on a berserker who can't cast it any other way), some used to be massively overpowered (the old abjuration rod which cast mass abjuration for 3 mana), but they're mostly just an alternate way to get some decent spells that you can't spam too much.

I really want to play around with the rod of striking, but it's not really possible to plan for it and it's rare to find, which makes me sad. I wish a lot of various rare items were more common, like boots of jumping, jiyva altars, and rod of striking. They aren't particularly strong, and I'm not saying they need to spawn early, I just wish you'd be somewhat likely to find them by the time you're 2-3 runes in. Jiyva altar in lair, of course.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 22:10

Re: Rods: do you use them?

tasonir wrote:Some rods are very useful for specific builds (deflect missiles on a berserker who can't cast it any other way)


Does the rod of warding even exist in 0.14? I thought one of the reason most rods were changed in recent versions was that the ones with multiple spells were not considered good interface-wise.

Hopeless wrote:I suspect they are much more common in the extended part of the game.


They aren't, but rods are considered exceptional items, and as such they are more likely to appear in vaults, and there are more (and bigger) vaults late in the game.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 22:51

Re: Rods: do you use them?

With the overall rarity of rods I just assume that if I haven't seen a particular rod in months, it's because I just haven't seen it. But you're probably right, it's been ages since I saw one and they're probably gone. Rods do seem to all be single spell now, I guess that shows how rarely I use them. I mostly only really use the thunderbolt one, which is slow to aim, but still fun to use if you don't mind the real time cost.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 22:52

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Is the rod of striking that good? I found one early but wasn't impressed, it seems to require high Evocations to be useful.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 23:11

Re: Rods: do you use them?

#removerods

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 00:41

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Sandman25 wrote:Is the rod of striking that good? I found one early but wasn't impressed, it seems to require high Evocations to be useful.

Yes, it absolutely does. I am mostly interested in it because I watched someone playing with it online. I want to say it was someone extremely good like 78291, but I can't be sure, it was a month+ ago. It does require a huge skill investment - your maces (or is it staves? I really should know this) needs to be enough for min delay (I think that's around 12-14 or so) and evocations is ideally 27, although it's obviously pretty good in the teen's and higher. And then you need a backup weapon if the mana on the rod runs out, so you have a backup demon whip or something.

But in exchange for all the pain, it's stronger than any normal 2H weapon, at least that's my understanding of it. It has to have higher damage, because there's a time limit on it and then it shuts down. Which I think is a wonderful mechanic...that you have the option of possibly using in up to 1% of your games. Hence why I'd like things like rod of striking and boots of jumping to be a lot more common. Boots of jumping aren't hugely powerful in the no-brainer sort of sense like boots of running, but they really reward proper tactical play, which is something I'd like to be able to use in a lot of my games. But they actually spawn in 1%...I had them on my GrMo of Chei that I 15 runed in the tournament, I wish that game could never have ended, blade hand jumping mobs is really fun :)

Again I've never actually gotten it going myself, mostly because it's so difficult to find. One of my mummies found one, but then it died because it was a mummy, so...

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 00:54

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I see, the rod is a late game weapon. I got excited when I found it really early (my M&F was about 6 and I was MuFi with M&F) but after reading wiki and trying it in a couple of fights I continued using my unbranded +0 flail. The rod has low base damage, high enough delay and requires Evocations.

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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 01:24

Re: Rods: do you use them?

rod of clouds is pretty good. Any rod I find I max it to +9. Its a nice long range weapon for melee who has evocations

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 01:58

Re: Rods: do you use them?

tasonir wrote:But in exchange for all the pain, it's stronger than any normal 2H weapon, at least that's my understanding of it.
I'm not convinced that's true. It's impossible to use rod of striking with fsim, but I can do it indirectly:
A +9 rod at 12/14 fighting/maces and 16/16 str/dex against a stone giant has about 3.1 AvDam and accuracy of 94%. 20 evocations gives another 1d30 damage that checks AC a second time, reducing it to an average of 10 against a stone giant. Now convert it to damage per 10 aut: (3.1+10*0.94)/0.6 = 20.8.
Now let's say we have a +7 great mace of flaming. For the rod of striking we used 20/14/12 evocations/maces/fighting and 16 str/dex, so for the great mace, 20/16 maces/fighting and 16/16 str/dex seems fair. Using fsim for that against a stone giant gives an AvEffDam that hovers around 21.9. Also it doesn't run out of charges and I'd rather enchant my weapon with enchant weapon scrolls rather than recharging scrolls.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 02:26

Re: Rods: do you use them?

If you get lucky and find a rod early on it's very worth it to invest in some Evocations for them. A rod of shadows or inaccuracy is an amazing power boost.

I generally use them as part of my pre-fight setup, not during a pitched battle.

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 02:50

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I've found a few rods in my most recent game and used them a fair bit to put on the hurt at range, although I'm not sure if they were any more effective then just walking up to the dudes and smashing face.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 03:54

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Brannock wrote:I generally use them as part of my pre-fight setup, not during a pitched battle.


That's the use I've generally gotten out of them. I'll rarely switch to a rod mid-fight, but I've gotten fantastic effect emptying a rod of clouds, inaccuracy, or lightning after opening a door before switching to my other tools.

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 05:05

Re: Rods: do you use them?

'Ignition' can be quite fun too at the beginning of a battle, if you don't mind the noise.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 05:08

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I often use rods at the end of battles with my casters to kill almost dead monsters.

Spider Stomper

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 09:15

Re: Rods: do you use them?

inacc does insane damage to low ev mons when you train some evo
I had a lot a fun with inacc when I worshipped TSO
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 03:11

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I rate inaccuracy pretty highly, it's a really good tool for killing dangerous ranged things. I had 2 of them on one character once, had a lot of fun blasting hellions.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 06:24

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Rod of clouds is now pretty weird. Until you get really high EVO. Then it creates clouds of acidic fog that melt everything. I used a pair of those + a lightning rod to destroy a zigg. Amazing for clusters of mobs.
Inacc is very situational, thus I've never really used it, I just can't stop myself from collecting all those tasty lamps of fire and phials of floods.
Swarm just seems bad, I suppose if you get one really early on, it may have uses - summoned monsters are usually poisoners. I haven't tried it at high Evo.
Shadows is pretty awesome - you get shadow mobs corresponding to the level you are on. I'd still drop it for a lamp of fire though...

Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 06:29

Re: Rods: do you use them?

well wasps are pretty good

Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 07:50

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I massively fancy phials and lamps though. A recently discs of storms with high Evo and rElec. They take up to 30% of my inventory come lategame. And I somewhat dislike summons. It's all about strategy though and swarms definitely has it's uses. I would not waste a single rechanrge on it though - it's just not worth it by the endgame where mostly anything resists poison.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 09:01

Re: Rods: do you use them?

You do need to know which ones attack each other, such as tremors which bash everything regardless.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 10:29

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I never understood, why rods (apart from rod of striking) have to be wielded to be evokable, unlike wands. Maybe I would use them more often if this was changed.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 13:15

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Rods are very strong if you invest a decent amount in Evo. Rods of clouds are great for setting up a killzone, rods of lightning and ignition can do solid damage to groups of monsters, rods of inaccuracy do insane damage -- I used them to kill ancient liches hiding behind draconians in Zot:5 recently. Even rod of the swarm is decent just because it creates multiple creatures, which (at the very least) make a good screen if you need to retreat.

I almost always use the rods I find, and if I find myself leaning on the rods fairly often, I boost them with recharge to get more uses out of them. Well, except inaccuracy, which I just always boost.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 16:17

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Worst part of rods of inaccuracy is gathering knowledge when to use them. I really have no idea and I don't feel like learning. If there was a way to guess from the monster descriptions if the mobs evasive or not I'd consider the rod much more often. As it is, I'll just stick to lightning and clouds.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 22:28

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Pretty much if you see a monster, you use rod of inaccuracy against it.

They're fine on anything up to 10-ish EV since inacc deals such massive damage when it hits. 10 EV is really high for monsters that you encounter in the parts of the game where you are likely to have a rod of inacc.

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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 20:15

Re: Rods: do you use them?

Nordon wrote:Worst part of rods of inaccuracy is gathering knowledge when to use them. I really have no idea and I don't feel like learning. If there was a way to guess from the monster descriptions if the mobs evasive or not I'd consider the rod much more often. As it is, I'll just stick to lightning and clouds.


If its big it is probably gonna have a crappy evasion score. Giants, yak/elephant, dragons (minus quicksilver and maybe others). Also you could petrify it to reduce its evasion some more.

Also jellies lack reflexes so bogus for them
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 20:58

Re: Rods: do you use them?

crate wrote:Pretty much if you see a monster, you use rod of inaccuracy against it.

They're fine on anything up to 10-ish EV since inacc deals such massive damage when it hits. 10 EV is really high for monsters that you encounter in the parts of the game where you are likely to have a rod of inacc.


Can you explain that? Are you saying monsters later in the game are likely to have lower EV, or are you saying you're likely to have a rod of inacc earlier in the game? I sort of figured monster EV would be higher toward the end of the game, on average.
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Dis Charger

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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 21:01

Re: Rods: do you use them?

In a recent game I used a Lightning rod as my primary killdudes for a good while. (MiFi of Dithmenos; happened to drop on D:5). It offered a level of crowd control (mediocre damage against a lot of targets) that I wouldn't have been able to get otherwise on an armoured character. Character was in trunk at a weird point when both single spell (new) and multispell(old) rods were available ended up using both types a lot.

786 total rod evokes vs. 17359 attacks with my main endgame weapons (normal Bastard Sword and the Eudemon Blade of Jihad) and 86 wacks with the Scepter of Torment (used it in shadow form in Zot, mostly). I actually had the scepter two wins in a row (not two games, but two wins; my MuCK [next win after that one] got it too.) I also used the Rod of Dispater (putting myself in penance in the process) to put down Antaeus on that run, because I couldn't get rid of him otherwise.

In short, if you find rods and don't used real spells (or have the XP to spare to put into Evocations) they are worth using. The hell lord staffs are a hell of a lot better if you can get your hands on one they were help against the other hell lords. :D But they are particularly useful if your Evo is high anyways (Staff of Energy user, Neme worshipper) or you have no source of normal magic (troglodyte, fighter).

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 21:06

Re: Rods: do you use them?

damiac wrote:
crate wrote:Pretty much if you see a monster, you use rod of inaccuracy against it.

They're fine on anything up to 10-ish EV since inacc deals such massive damage when it hits. 10 EV is really high for monsters that you encounter in the parts of the game where you are likely to have a rod of inacc.


Can you explain that? Are you saying monsters later in the game are likely to have lower EV, or are you saying you're likely to have a rod of inacc earlier in the game? I sort of figured monster EV would be higher toward the end of the game, on average.

Go look at lair enemies' EV and then report back. (In particular frogs and the various snakes.)

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Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 21:45

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I believe its called the rod of ignition not sure, but the one where you fire a bolt of fire that explodes like a fireball on each enemy the bolt hits is pretty freaking good. Probably the best rod with clouds as a second.
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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 22:06

Re: Rods: do you use them?

I love rods, and would almost always use them, except the only rod I ever seem to find is the rod of striking. Unless I'm playing a melee-based Ashenzari character or a Spriggan, in which case I generally find dozens of fantastic rods like rod of clouds and rod of inaccuracy. It's rather disappointing.

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