CeHu basics


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1230

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 06:50

CeHu basics

Hi,

I've just started playing DCSS and it has been a bit tricky to find out how some of the mechanics work. The wiki appears to be a source of questionable accuracy, so I thought I'd try my luck here.

CeHu is my first character that made it to a branch. I've cleared the lair and I'm debating whether to go into the snake pits or head further down the dungeon. I've a decent longbow with bows on 21 and I also went for polearms (although I should have probably considered unarmed). Things are going reasonably well, but I have two questions.

1. What do you do for defense on a CeHu? Does encumbrance affect non-magical ranged combat?
Using a shield isn't possible while wielding a bow (or is it, the wiki was confusing on this point). The aptitude for evasion and armour is pretty poor. I've trained some evasion and I'm wearing leather armour. Is it ever worth training both armour and evasion?

2. What level of spells can I realistically expect to be able to cast? What is a good strategy for spreading experience in order to improve casting success?
I found a book with Haste and Deflect Missiles which seem great for me. On closer look I will need to put what feels like a lot of experience into my (poor-ish aptitude) magic skills in order to make those spells work. Is that really worth it?

Looking forward to your knowledgeable responses!

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 742

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 12:30

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 08:27

Re: CeHu basics

Polearms were most likely a better choice than unarmed because unarmed requires more exp to be good. Training polearms allows you to use a demon trident, which is a decent/good weapon for not a huge amount of skill invested. Polearms are also usually the best weapon for Ce because you can kill things without getting hurt. It helps deal with their bad defenses (at the start at least).

Using a shield with a bow is possible if I'm not mistaken, but aside from the penalties (I have no idea what they are), you probably don't want to spend exp on shields.

1. Training armor and wearing heavy armor like a plate is the better choice I think. Because of deformed body you get 5 less AC wearing plate, but the AC from a barding makes up for it. Armor skill then increases the AC gained from a plate and barding (and other slots) and you can easily end up with very good AC. It is sometimes or even often worth training both armor and evasion, but with a Ce wearing plate, doing a 3 rune game, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to train dodging too. Note that getting +EV from something like a ring is really good if you have low EV.
Dragon armors are an option too, and would let you cast spells easier than plate (personally I wouldn't go in this direction, but some people might).

2. The only spell that you might possibly want to learn is haste, and you most likely should not learn it. If wearing plate, I would definitely not to learn it in a 3 rune game with this character (other characters wearing plate might want to learn it). If wearing a lighter armor, it's more realistic, and would require around 15 charms skill with wizardry (I still wouldn't learn it but some people might).
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Blades Runner

Posts: 538

Joined: Saturday, 15th February 2014, 03:22

Location: NYC

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 08:56

Re: CeHu basics

Take this tentative advice with some grains of salt as I am no expert (still very new here myself.) But this is what I understand (anyone who feels any of this is wrong should specify what is incorrect or imprecise.) Mainly from advice given to myself and also from personal experience with the game.

Polearms + Centaurs = kiting. (hit at reach (hit v when they are a tile away from being next to you), then back up because you are typically faster than your enemy and repeat when you have a tile gap again. This is even better with branded weapons such as Venom, and Freeze) One of the painful lessons of Crawl is you really don't want to be too long in melee range (next to a monster) because bad things happen like that. Particularly vs the tougher monsters. Also try to avoid moving toward awake enemies.

As for learning spells, there are a number of very good ones including: Regeneration, Apportation, Blink, Swiftness (particularly good with an already fast mover like centaurs), Haste, Summon Butterflies and more. You will probably want decent skill in Armor before you start learning those spells if you have heavy armor on, but they will help you lots late game. Just be wary of miscasting (try and get the fail % rate under 10% and not red.)

You will eventually also want to train dodging (though not at the same time as armor.)

If you can find a bow that is also something you will want. (Any missiles will do in a pinch. At the very minimum for drawing enemies to a kill position in single file or small groups.) ' is the switch command between the weapons labeled a) and b) so you can quickly go from bow to polearm (Demon trident if one handed or great mace if two seem preferred though Dire Flail is also huge) when your enemies close.

You may want to worship Okawaru for the many gifts of weapons (and armor?? never did get any of this but *shrugs* that is what I have read in several places.) and Heroism and Finesse all of which will help as you kite things to death.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 10:06

Re: CeHu basics

Don't use a shield with a bow. I'm not sure what the penalties are, but they are huge, something like halved firing speed.

As a Ce you can easily and reliably run away from most things. So choose your battles well, fight in safe areas, and kite when you need to. Of course when you are new you don't know what enemies you cant handle, and when you find out it is often too late to run. But at least you know the early game a bit, and running away is a lot better anyway when most enemies don't have ranged attacks.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 508

Joined: Sunday, 16th June 2013, 14:01

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 10:34

Re: CeHu basics

A character dump would be most helpful.
Press # during your game then find your morgue file. If playing online then a link will appear in the comments box.
When posing your dump put it between [*code*] [/*code*] tags (without all *).

1. encumbrance effects spell success, but don't worry about it effecting your ranged weapons. Wearing a buckler with a bow will slow your rate of fire, a shield will slow it further. training armor vs dodging depends on your current armor; your current leather armour wants focusing on dodging since it should have more return, and a bit of armour to boost AC a couple of points when skill levels are cheep. If you don't have spell and aren't planning on them then you can go full heavy armour and do quite well.

2. Spells are very good, D missile might be too much investment. haste is a very good spell and will require ~15 levels to cast at 10% failure rate which is a lot for one spell. However you can grab some lower level charms such as, repel missiles,regeneration, spectral weapon, Ozo's armour on the way. blink, apportation, summon butterflies are a few non charms to look out for. spells are easier to cast in low encumbrance armour, leather should be fine for low levels.

Keep doing dungeon until it gets too hard, then do orc, then dungeon until it's too hard, then snake/shoals/swamp/spider (but not the last level) back to dungeon etc. essentially do the easiest level available. Remember to examine new monsters.

Have you chosen a god yet?

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2209

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 11:38

Re: CeHu basics

1. I'd prefer heavy armour (plate or dragon one) with a Ce, because they tend to have low dex and so crappy ev.
2. I find CeHu the combo who less benefits of haste because you can easily kill enemies from edge of LOS, rarely being in any danger and if something bad happens (e.g. summoners summon nasty foes) you can easily walk to the opposite direction and try later - pots and wands of haste is more than ever enough to run/kill away in the very dangerous situations. If you go with Oka you can absolutely forget to learn the spell (you have horse legs to run away and finesse which is even better than haste).

A spell I strongly advice to learn is portal projectiles: its' only lv. 2 and it lets smite attack anything in LOS which is extremely good when there are summoners, or buffers (e.g troll shamans) behind other enemies.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

For this message the author nago has received thanks:
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Tomb Titivator

Posts: 895

Joined: Saturday, 15th June 2013, 23:54

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 13:29

Re: CeHu basics

I like using Conjure Flame with CeHu. Block corridor(or damage the crazies that walk through it) and just shoot away.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 15:17

Re: CeHu basics

I'd echo what Nago says, and add that Translocations also gives you Apportation, Blink, and later perhaps Phase Shift and Controlled Blink (or just Passage of Golubria). If you're wearing heavy armour, and I would recommend it, you'll probably only be able to train 1-2 spell schools high enough to get level 6+ spells. The schools you should consider most carefully are Translocations, Charms, Summoning, and Necromancy, but as Nago said Translocation is probably one of the most useful if you use bows.

Do not combine bows with shields -- the penalties are both severe and impossible to mitigate sufficiently via training.

Don't plan to receive a demon trident (or any other specific piece of uncommon gear) -- you may never find one.

Don't learn Ozo's Armour unless you're wearing something with encumbrance 4 or less, because Ozo's Armour doesn't work with armour heavier than that. Armours in that encumbrance band are robes, steam dragon armour, leather armour, and troll leather armour.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 16:38

Re: CeHu basics

If you are going for 3 runes, consider ignoring spells. Ce has pretty bad aptitudes so you can have something like this:

  Code:
 + Level 22.6 Fighting
 - Level 16.1 Polearms
 - Level 24.2 Bows
 - Level 15.1 Armour
 + Level 16.1 Dodging
 - Level 0.5 Stealth
 - Level 9.0 Evocations

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1230

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 16:51

Re: CeHu basics

Thanks for the many responses!

In case anyone is interested, here is a character dump.

I guess the messages were: heavier armour is OK, but probably need some training, don't worry too much about spells (for now), maybe I've overtrained bows, probably shouldn't neglect evocation.

  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0 (tiles) character file.

P the Crack Shot (Centaur Hunter)                  Turns: 33656, Time: 08:48:56

HP 111/111       AC 15     Str 15      XL: 14   Next: 37%
MP  31/31        EV 12     Int 10      God: Okawaru [******]
Gold 1086        SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  2 memorised,  8 levels left

rFire  x . .     SeeInvis .     u - +5,+0 longbow (frost)
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     z - +3 leather armour of Philately {rC+}
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  +         rCorr    .     F - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     X - +2 cloak {rPois}
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     G - +1 pair of gloves {archer}
rMut   .         Warding  .     (no barding)
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    J - ring of ice
                                r - ring of magical power

@: very quick, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, very unstealthy
A: hooves 3, deformed body, herbivore 1, speed 2, fast metabolism 1, tough skin
3
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion


You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is exalted by your worship.
You are hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 18 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 1086 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 b - a +1,+2 bow
 j - a +2,+1 anti-magic battleaxe
 o - a +0,+4 scimitar of flaming
 u - a +5,+0 longbow of frost (weapon)
 E - a +2,+0 halberd
Missiles
 a - 25 arrows of dispersal
 c - 64 arrows (quivered)
 e - 68 arrows of flame
 t - 50 stones
 v - a throwing net
 w - 5 bolts of frost
 B - 52 darts
 N - 19 sling bullets of flame
 S - 14 steel darts
 Z - 14 arrows of frost
Armour
 s - a +1 robe of magic resistance
 y - a shield
 z - the +3 leather armour of Philately (worn) {rC+}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
 F - a +2 helmet (worn)
 G - a +1 pair of gloves of archery (worn)
 X - a +2 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 h - a wand of flame (11)
 i - a wand of confusion (24)
 H - a wand of slowing (16)
 M - a wand of confusion
 Q - a wand of digging (11)
Comestibles
 f - 12 bread rations
 D - 2 chokos
 K - 3 apples
 U - a meat ration
Scrolls
 d - a scroll of blinking
 n - 4 scrolls of fog
 q - a scroll of fear
 A - 2 scrolls of recharging
 C - 4 scrolls of teleportation
 L - a scroll labeled EMOLIA SHRELU
 O - a scroll labeled YMUODI TRUEXUO
 P - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon II
 R - a scroll of identify
 V - 3 scrolls of enchant weapon I
 Y - 2 scrolls of remove curse
Jewellery
 r - a ring of magical power (left hand)
 J - a ring of ice (right hand)
Potions
 g - a smoky silvery potion
 k - 2 potions of heal wounds
 l - 3 potions of invisibility
 m - 8 potions of curing
 p - a potion of resistance
 I - 3 potions of haste
 T - a potion of confusion
Books
 x - a book of Enchantments   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Cause Fear                         Hexes                        4
   Silence                            Hexes/Air                    5
   Tukima's Dance                     Hexes                        5
   Deflect Missiles                   Charms/Air                   6
   *Haste                             Charms                       6
   Discord                            Hexes                        8


   Skills:
 + Level 6.9 Fighting
 - Level 11.0 Polearms
 * Level 21.4 Bows
 - Level 5.0 Dodging
 - Level 0.5 Stealth
 - Level 2.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 7.0 Charms
 + Level 6.8 Invocations


You have 8 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Poison Weapon         Chrm/Pois      #.........   21%         3    ####...
b - Haste                 Chrm           ###.....     100%        6    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (9/15)             Temple (1/1) D:7            Lair (8/8) D:9
  Swamp (0/5) Lair:3        Snake (0/5) Lair:5        Slime (0/6) Lair:8
   Orc: D:9-12     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Annotations:
D:8 1 exclusion
Lair:3 Swamp entrance, 2 exclusions
Lair:5 Snake Pits entrance
Lair:8 Slimp Pits entrance


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have hooves in place of feet.
Armour fits poorly on your strangely shaped body.
You digest meat inefficiently.
You cover ground very quickly.
You have a fast metabolism.
You have extremely tough skin (AC +3).


Message History

There is a stone staircase leading down here.
Move the cursor to view the level map, or type ? for a list of commands.
Returning to the game...
You are feeling hungry.
You drop 3 rotting chunks of wolf flesh.
Move the cursor to view the level map, or type ? for a list of commands.
Returning to the game...
There is an open gate here.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
Save game and exit?
Okay, then.
Describe a (M)onster, (S)pell, s(K)ill, (I)tem, (F)eature, (G)od, (A)bility, (B)ranch, or (C)ard?
Okay, then.
You are alive. Your movement speed is very quick. Your attack speed is quite fast.
You are somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments.
You feel very unstealthy.
Save game and exit?
Welcome back, P the Centaur Hunter.
Okawaru says: Bring me glory in combat!
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.

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There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Fannar (Lair:4)
  8 hydras
  Erica (Lair:6)
  9 death yaks
  Pikel (D:8)
  6 elephants (Lair:6)
  10 black mambas
  7 spiny frogs
  2 fire drakes
  A spriggan druid (Lair:8)
  4 komodo dragons
  A hydra zombie (D:9)
  A wandering mushroom (Lair:6)
  13 giant fireflies
  A queen bee (D:9)
  2 giant leeches (Lair:3)
  15 blink frogs
  A boulder beetle (Lair:5)
  4 basilisks
  7 grizzly bears
  9 spriggans
  33 yaks
  8 hippogriffs
  A hungry ghost (D:8)
  37 wolves
  2 swamp worms (Lair:3)
  Edmund (D:8)
  2 wargs (D:9)
  3 necrophages (D:8)
  3 orc warriors
  3 nagas (Lair:5)
  10 water moccasins
  15 porcupines
  4 ice beasts
  A phantom (D:5)
  A yellow wasp (Lair:5)
  A slave (D:8)
  3 black bears (Lair:8)
  A sky beast (D:6)
  3 centaurs
  7 ogres
  2 boring beetles
  12 giant slugs
  16 crocodiles
  Blork the orc (D:4)
  7 big kobolds
  13 giant frogs
  An eye of draining (Lair:8)
  4 wights (D:8)
  25 killer bees (D:9)
  4 scorpions
  8 crimson imps
  A jelly (D:9)
  5 orc priests
  A giant frog zombie (D:6)
  A two-headed ogre zombie (D:8)
  11 hounds
  Crazy Yiuf (D:6)
  A giant frog skeleton (D:9)
  A gnoll shaman (D:4)
  A black bear skeleton (D:9)
  10 iguanas
  5 worker ants
  5 orc wizards
  13 sheep (Lair:4)
  A crocodile skeleton (D:9)
  Ijyb (D:6)
  33 adders
  39 green rats
  7 gnolls
  2 orc skeletons
  2 giant mites
  8 worms
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  2 giant eyeballs
  6 giant geckos
  4 oozes
  20 orcs
  16 bats
  A bat zombie (D:8)
  10 giant cockroaches
  14 goblins
  14 hobgoblins
  28 jackals
  7 quokkas
  3 ball pythons
  7 giant newts
  A goblin skeleton (D:4)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:7)
  21 kobolds
  An orc zombie (D:7)
  33 rats
  A butterfly (D:7)
  5 fungi
681 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  2 necrophages (D:8)
  2 slaves (D:8)
  A wight (D:8)
  A centaur zombie (D:8)
  A hound (D:8)
  3 orc wizards (D:8)
  3 orcs (D:8)
  4 jackals (D:8)
  A kobold (D:8)
  A bush (Lair:8)
  9 fungi
  3 plants (Lair:8)
31 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 712 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | P, the Centaur Hunter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 1/1
   341 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 23/23 MP: 2/2
   670 | D:1      | Reached skill level 6 in Bows
  1073 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 20/29 MP: 3/3
  1861 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 35/37 MP: 3/3
  1975 | D:3      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  2016 | D:3      | Reached skill level 7 in Bows
  3058 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 39/45 MP: 4/4
  3059 | D:3      | Reached skill level 8 in Bows
  3439 | D:4      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
  3555 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 51/51 MP: 5/5
  3581 | D:4      | Reached skill level 9 in Bows
  3913 | D:4      | Reached skill level 10 in Bows
  4064 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  4081 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  4081 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 57/57 MP: 5/5
  4436 | D:4      | Noticed Blork the orc
  4453 | D:4      | Killed Blork the orc
  4774 | D:4      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  4774 | D:4      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  5039 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5890 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Polearms
  5890 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 63/63 MP: 6/6
  6922 | D:6      | Found a glowing drain.
  7002 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  7242 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 11 in Bows
  8554 | D:6      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  8625 | D:6      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  8755 | D:6      | Noticed Ijyb
  8774 | D:6      | Killed Ijyb
  8959 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 69/69 MP: 7/7
  8994 | D:6      | Reached skill level 12 in Bows
 10237 | D:7      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 10263 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
 10515 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
 10529 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Warmaster Okawaru
 10789 | D:7      | Reached skill level 13 in Bows
 11287 | D:8      | Noticed Pikel
 11355 | D:8      | Killed Pikel
 11355 | D:8      | Acquired Okawaru's first power
 11645 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 77/77 MP: 7/7
 12158 | D:8      | Reached skill level 14 in Bows
 12564 | D:8      | Noticed Edmund
 12600 | D:8      | Killed Edmund
 13628 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 13825 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 15095 | D:9      | Reached skill level 15 in Bows
 15490 | D:9      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 15813 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 16164 | Lair:1   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 16199 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 85/85 MP: 8/8
 16349 | Lair:1   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 16465 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 16724 | Lair:1   | Acquired Okawaru's second power
 16780 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 16 in Bows
 17302 | Lair:1   | Noticed a black mamba
 17358 | Lair:1   | Killed a black mamba
 17865 | Lair:2   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 17909 | Lair:2   | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 18587 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 17 in Bows
 19000 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
 19660 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 19716 | Lair:3   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 20032 | Lair:3   | Killed a seven-headed hydra
 20032 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 20036 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 20285 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 20371 | Lair:3   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 20377 | Lair:3   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 20388 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 18 in Bows
 20388 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 94/94 MP: 17/17
 20650 | Lair:3   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 20692 | Lair:3   | Killed a four-headed hydra
 20692 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 1 in Spellcasting
 21026 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 21248 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 3 spell: Poison Weapon
 21742 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
 21870 | Lair:4   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 22264 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 19 in Bows
 22492 | Lair:4   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 22527 | Lair:4   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 22527 | Lair:4   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 22530 | Lair:4   | Got a jewelled leather armour {god gift}
 22538 | Lair:4   | Identified the +3 leather armour of Philately {rC+} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 22748 | Lair:4   | Noticed Fannar
 22820 | Lair:4   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 22877 | Lair:4   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 22887 | Lair:4   | Killed Fannar
 24048 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 20 in Bows
 24089 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 24425 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 6 spell: Haste
 24649 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 100/100 MP: 18/18
 24808 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 25155 | Lair:6   | Noticed Erica
 26174 | Lair:6   | Killed Erica
 26537 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 26606 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 21 in Bows
 27591 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 29069 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 29381 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 29793 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 10 in Polearms
 29928 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
 30411 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 30557 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 78/108 MP: 20/20
 31124 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 32290 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 33018 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Okawaru


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Short sword       |    11 |       |       |       |       ||    11
       Dagger            |    49 |    10 |     9 |       |       ||    68
       Halberd           |       |     5 |     1 |    11 |   498 ||   515
       Spear             |       |       |   452 |   858 |       ||  1310
       Scimitar          |       |       |       |       |    12 ||    12
 Fire: Bow               |    53 |   122 |   150 |   255 |       ||   580
       Longbow           |       |       |       |   288 |   438 ||   726
Throw: Stone             |       |       |    58 |    13 |       ||    71
       Dart              |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
       Throwing net      |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
Invok: Heroism           |       |       |       |     5 |     1 ||     6
  Use: Scroll            |       |       |    17 |    10 |     6 ||    33
       Potion            |       |       |       |     4 |     2 ||     6

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 16:56

Re: CeHu basics

Don't worry, ignoring Evocations is not a mistake unless you found some nice rods.

Edit. Remove ring of ice, rF- is very bad.
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Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 20:38

Re: CeHu basics

Galefury wrote:Don't use a shield with a bow. I'm not sure what the penalties are, but they are huge, something like halved firing speed.

What about sling+shield? Are those penatlies same as for bow+shield?
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Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 20:52

Re: CeHu basics

Sling is 1h weapon, it is not penalized by shield.

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Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 21:05

Re: CeHu basics

Slings don't get a shield penalty (That's the advantage they have, since they do less damage than bows)

For ranged weapons it goes something like this:
Longbows: Best damage at the top end, Special brand for arrow ammo causes critters to blink (which is ok for keeping things at range, but not otherwise all that special)
Crossbows: Best untrained damage, doesn't get as much benefit from training (ends up being about the same as slings damage wise) Special bolt brand is piercing, which lets you hit a row of critters. Also a very good choice, but better (imho) for a melee backup (And way to kill summoners/smiters/tormetors/buffers in the back of a pack) than it is as a primary weapon, certainly serviceable as one though.
Slings: Don't have a penalty from shields (they are one-handed) less damage than bows/crossbows, but can use stones as ammo (with half the damage of sling bullets) Special brand is explosion, does damage to everything adjacent to the target, ignores evasion, but always destroys the ammo, probably the least useful of the 'special' brands. Probably the easiest to pick up ammo and use to kill stuff early game (crossbows do more damage early game, but finding ammo sucks, stones are very common, bolts are not)
Throwing: All thrown weapons have no penalty from shields, and always fire in exactly 1.0 AUT. If you're large (Troll/Ogre), throwing large rocks does excellent damage with very little training (but doesn't increase much with training) not quite as good as a well-trained longbow, but probably about as good as a well trained crossbow or sling, Javelins are a step down (but usable by everyone) tomahawks are a step down from there (decent for knocking hps off a critter you're going to melee) throwing darts and stones does insignificant damage outside of the first few levels. Blowguns also use the throwing skill, and while they don't do damage directly they inflict all kinds of nasty status effects, you can bypass an orc warrior's armour and poison them to death, a few shots of curare will slow and do loads of poison damage to anything that can be poisoned, and needles of confusion, paralysis, and sleep are all excellent for well-trained stabbers who have a highly enchanted blowgun.

All of the damage-doing weapons have the brands of the launcher overriden by the brand of the ammo *except* velocity, which by itself does less damage than freezing/frost but *stacks with* branded ammo (so you get the benefits from both)

You also get a larger bonus from your launcher's damage bonus, if you have enough strength (Where "enough" tops out at around 15 for a +9 launcher)

Shields impose a significant speed penalty on bows and crossbows. (The degree to which it slows your firing down depends on the shield, 50% for bucklers, 100% for regular shields, and 150% for large shields, this penalty can be halved by raising your shield to 27. Don't do this, instead use a ranged weapon without a shield.)
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Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 22:04

Re: CeHu basics

Nice, thank you for this mini guide :) :thumbsup:
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Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 22:37

Re: CeHu basics

That was really useful! Maybe you should write a detailed ranged combat guide...

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Post Friday, 25th April 2014, 15:21

Re: CeHu basics

That's a great rundown, Siegurt! I'd like to add/expand on a few things:

* I'm pretty sure that the exploding damage done by exploding sling bullets is fixed and has no relationship to launcher enchantment, player skill, or anything else, which makes it very good for the small portion of the game where that fixed damage is significant, and very bad forever after.
* Unless your strength is fairly high, it's hard to get crossbows down to a reasonable delay. Every time I've tried to use them as a primary damage source I've been frustrated and felt very weak until I got strength and skill each over 20. YMMV, but I'd say you'll get better results from investing in other weapons.
* I've used throwing (non-needle) as my primary form of attack on two winning characters (both Ogres), and I think it gets underrated. For your investment you definitely get less efficient damage and less return on investment than you would with a melee weapon, but it is nevertheless fairly effective. At high skill, thrown large rocks do very high damage, and javelins (and even tomahawks) can do high full-LOS damage. Even thrown darts can do reasonable damage to enemies that aren't an immediate threat. Throwing doesn't require you to switch weapons and doesn't interfere with a shield.

I probably would only invest heavily on characters that have high strength (for carrying capacity and also for damage bonus) and plan to use Throwing to augment melee and use relatively little magic and can use large rocks. So, basically a subset of ogres and trolls.

I know some very skilled players disagree with me on this point and feel that it is always a waste to invest high amounts of XP in Throwing, and they may well be more right than I am.

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Post Saturday, 26th April 2014, 05:56

Re: CeHu basics

Lasty wrote:At high skill, thrown large rocks do very high damage, and javelins (and even tomahawks) can do high full-LOS damage.
1 point of str increases throwing damage by approximately as much as 2 levels of throwing skill

while throwing damage can be good, the actual throwing skill has pretty awful returns for it except for accuracy (which you don't need that much of) - it doesn't even decrease delay!

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Post Saturday, 26th April 2014, 17:27

Re: CeHu basics

Which brand would consider the best for a longbow?
I feel that the elemental damage brands (fire, frost, etc.) are not great because they can be made with arrows. On the other hand I can't decide whether I like velocity or speed better. Penetration seems powerful, but situational. In a lot of cases one might not want to hit the monsters in front.

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Post Saturday, 26th April 2014, 17:34

Re: CeHu basics

In current versions, speed launchers actually do more damage per time than velocity unless your damage is really bad in the first place - like, 0 skill bad, and even then the enemy needs pretty high AC. You will consume more ammo but that generally isn't a big deal.

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Post Sunday, 27th April 2014, 19:03

Re: CeHu basics

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:The wiki appears to be a source of questionable accuracy


Depends on what you are looking for; if you are looking up a monster's stats, or checking out the details of a spell, I believe most of those are parsed straight out of the game.

For basically anything else you may want to either confirm here or test it out first. The character guides are infamous for being rife with errors or bad advice.
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Post Sunday, 27th April 2014, 21:39

Re: CeHu basics

Monster stats, yes. Spells/items/pretty much everything else, no.

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