Dithmenos mechanics


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Swamp Slogger

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Joined: Sunday, 13th November 2011, 06:46

Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 06:38

Dithmenos mechanics

So I'm trying to make the most of of Dith but the knowledge bot and the wiki don't have too much info about him.
1- the umbra gives a bonus to my sneak (how much? double?) and a malus to hit of other creatures. Also my summons? Are demons unaffected as described somewhere for umbra from profane s?
2- Shadow mimic spell: which spells are mimiced and how? OoD isn't for example. Bolts are mimiced with a shadow bolt, what type of damage does the shadow bolt?
3- Shadow mimic attack: matters only the base dmg of the weapon or something else too? The character specie for example? What about aux Attacks?
4- Shadow form: duration? How is melee attack dmg reduced? Slaying bonuses are reduced? Brands like elec? Aux Attacks?
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 10:53

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

Dithmenos 0.14.0 source dive, AKA more than you ever needed to know about the Shadow God
(I don't guarantee anything in this will be accurate come 0.15!)

Umbra: ....../*.....ish

-As a Dith worshipper, your umbra radius = piety / sqrt(393) which covers LoS at ****** (160) piety.

Night vision: ......

-Night vision is the property of being immune to umbra maluses.
-Players have night vision if undead, Dith ...... or better or Yred **.... or better.
-Monsters have night vision if undead, Dith worshipper or Yred worshipper.

-Bolts suffer an accuracy penalty if the target is in an umbra and the shooter lacks night vision:
Spoiler: show
  Code:
        if (!nightvision && you.umbra(true, true))
            real_tohit -= 2 + random2(4);

-Similarly, meleeing an actor standing in an umbra, if the attacker lacks night vision, suffers an accuracy penalty:
Spoiler: show
  Code:
        else if (!attacker->nightvision()
                 && defender->umbra(true, true))
            mhit -= 2 + random2(4);

-This is a weird one - monsters that EMIT their own umbra (or are wearing the ring of shadows!) (or are shadows) get a boost to monster stealth, which is only used to determine how hard it is to see an invisible monster's disturbance.
Spoiler: show
  Code:
    if (mons_class_flag(type, M_SHADOW) || umbra_radius2() != -1)
        actual_stealth += 3;


Spoiler: show
  Code:
    if (_hashed_rand(mons, 0, 7) >= mons->stealth() + 4
        && (mons->stealth() <= -2 || !_hashed_rand(mons, 1, 4)))
    {
        _mark_invisible_at(gp);
    }


-Player stealth is boosted in an umbra too - and the higher your Dith/Yred piety, the more it boosts it - from +0% at ...... to +100% at MAX_PIETY:
Spoiler: show
  Code:
    if (you.umbra())
    {
        if (you_worship(GOD_DITHMENOS) || you_worship(GOD_YREDELEMNUL))
            stealth = stealth * (you.piety + MAX_PIETY) / MAX_PIETY;
        else if (player_equip_unrand(UNRAND_SHADOWS))
            stealth = stealth * 3 / 2;
    }


-I can't tell if having an umbra that doesn't stretch to other tiles yet is good enough for these bonuses, or if you need to wait for roughly *..... before they come online.

---

Shadow step: **....
-Base failure rate (not a probability):
Spoiler: show
30 - piety/20 - invo*6

-To target something with shadow step it must be within your umbra and it must be 'not moving':
--Asleep
--Cannot move (paralysed, stupefied (Zin recite paralysis), fully petrified or Shedu preparing to resurrect another)
--Is stationary (a kind of monster that is naturally stationary or an animal withdrawn into its shell)
-So as far as I can tell you can't net something and then shadow step to it.

Black smoke/fog: **..../***...ish

-Imagine two lines on your HP meter. The top line is always at half your max HP.
-After exceeding ** piety, as your piety approaches 200, the bottom line approaches 0 of your max HP.
When you are hit, if the amount of damage you took falls into this range, then the % past the bottom line it got is how likely dark smoke is to appear. (If you're hit for more than half your max HP, the % chance is more than 100 - so you always emit. Conversely, if you're at max piety, even a tiny nick has a single digit % chance of emitting smog.)
-Dark smoke always comes out with the same thickness regardless of damage taken.

---

Shadow mimic: ***.../****..ish

-Your shadow mimic acts with 0% chance at ***... piety, 10% chance at ****.. piety, 50% chance at 200 piety (in a linearly scaling fashion).

-Your shadow has a HD of weapon skill*1/2 + fighting skill*1/2 (min 1 max 27). Most importantly of all, it is a monster - so it does monster melee, monster ranged attacks and monster spellcasting (instead of the player version thereof). Nothing about the shadow monster is varied based on what species you are or anything like that.

1) Shadow melee: Your shadow holds a shadow clone of your weapon (the same base and sub type, so unenchanted, unbranded and no artifact properties). This can distract enemies (for the purposes of stabbing).
2) Shadow throw: Your shadow throws/fires a shadow clone of the thing you threw/fired (again, no enchantment/brands/artifact properties). This is monster ranged, so I bet it's really powerful. Maybe it can distract as well, I haven't tried it yet.
3) Shadow magic: If it targets yourself or has no target, it is not mimiced. If it's an enchantment that has no monster version, it is not mimiced. Instead of using the default shadow HD, the HD is set to the smaller of 3 * spell level and xl/2 (minimum 1). If it was an enchantment, the shadow casts the monster version. If it was a beam, the shadow casts shadow bolt. If it was not a beam, the shadow casts shadow shard.

-Both spells work the same except one beams and the other doesn't:
Spoiler: show
  Code:
beam.damage = 3d(8+(power/11))
beam.colour = MAGENTA
beam.flavour = BEAM_MMISSILE (same as force lance, stone arrow, iron shot...)
beam.hit = 17 + power / 25


---

Shadow Form: *****.

Important stuff:
-Base failure rate (not a probability):
Spoiler: show
80 - piety/25 - invo*4

-Shadow form duration: pow = invo*2, duration = 18+2d(invo*2) (maximum of 100)
-When you melee, your damage is divided by 2 (with random floor/ceil for .5). This is after fighting skill, slaying, str/dex effect but before ac and stab. So it makes it a lot harder to get past AC, it's not just half expected DPS.
-If you take 1 or more damage in shadow form, Dith dark smoke emission is guaranteed.
-Just before your HP would be reduced by taking damage, shadow form steps in and halves it, turning the rest into drain:
Spoiler: show
  Code:
        if (you.form == TRAN_SHADOW)
        {
            drain_amount = (dam - (dam / 2));
            dam /= 2;
        }

-Undead resistance suite: rTorment rPois+++ rN+++ rRot+++
-It gives you stealth race_mod of 30. (For comparison, tree is 27, spider/jelly/wisp is 21, octopode is 18, bat is 17, vampire is 18-21)
-It gives you MR IMMUNE.
-You are invisible while you are in shadow form (unless you are backlit).
-You have 2 extra negative enhancers when casting any spell.
-You are not technically undead, as far as I can gather from the source.

Not as important (or obvious) stuff:
-It makes you 'a swirling mass of dark shadows'.
-Your tile becomes that of the monster 'shadow'.
-You can wield and wear and keep your mutations.
-Shadow form makes you extra balanced in water. (Assuming I'm reading player::extra_balanced() in player-act.cc right.)
-It halves your weight. (This makes beams/bolts that knockback harder to resist. It would also shrink your carry capacity, but the calculation use your untransformed weight, not your current weight.)
-You still breathe.
-It makes your genus the same as MONS_SHADOW.
-You don't bleed.
-No shatter immunity.

---

Appendix A: Converting a base failure rate into a true failure rate
if random2avg(100, 3) < base failure rate then using the ability worked.
Basically, it calls random2(100) (random 0-99 inclusive) three times and takes the average of those three rolls.
The result is that 'unlucky' and 'lucky' rolls are less likely - if your failure rate is awful then it becomes awfuler, and if your success rate is great than it becomes greater.
But - what you see on the ability menu is the true failure rate, post figuring out how likely you are to pass random2avg(100, 3) < base failure rate, so you don't have to care about any of this.
(See spl-cast.cc _get_true_fail_rate
Last edited by Patashu on Thursday, 24th April 2014, 01:33, edited 10 times in total.

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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 11:20

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

Patashu wrote:-Shadow form failure rate: 80 - piety/25 - invo*4

This is actually the "base fail", which is later converted to "true fail" percentage by a rather complicated calculation. Generally you want "base fail" at about 27 to have "true fail" at about 8% IIRC.

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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 11:39

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

stickyfingers wrote:
Patashu wrote:-Shadow form failure rate: 80 - piety/25 - invo*4

This is actually the "base fail", which is later converted to "true fail" percentage by a rather complicated calculation. Generally you want "base fail" at about 27 to have "true fail" at about 8% IIRC.


Thank you for this. I would never ever have noticed the one line far off in some other piece of code that makes it so displayed failure rate != true failure rate for abilities unless you hinted that it exists XD
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:21

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

I cut off my source diving slightly too early last night, sorry. Corrected my post to say that the failure rate you see on the ability list is the real failure rate (a %).
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:50

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

Patashu wrote:tree is 27


The strangest thing I learned from that.
take it easy
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 22:42

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

Arrhythmia wrote:
Patashu wrote:tree is 27


The strangest thing I learned from that.


The best part is the comment:

  Code:
    case TRAN_TREE:
        race_mod = 27; // masquerading as scenery
        break;


no one suspects the tree to be the killer

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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 24th April 2014, 00:34

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

Just had a random thought. Does Shadow Form make you immune to Shatter? (I don't think there's ever been a way to become intangible as a player character before, so there is probably no existing check/flag)

EDIT: It does not.

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Sunday, 6th January 2013, 18:49

Post Friday, 25th April 2014, 15:09

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

Two questions:

Does Dithmenos get upset by use of divine wrath weapons?

If I use Dragon's Call can I summon a Fire Dragon with impunity?

Dungeon Master

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Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Friday, 25th April 2014, 18:28

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

1: no.
2: Unless it got changed very recently, yes you can.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 22:16

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

Patashu wrote:Just had a random thought. Does Shadow Form make you immune to Shatter? (I don't think there's ever been a way to become intangible as a player character before, so there is probably no existing check/flag)

EDIT: It does not.

wisp form if you get zapped by a wand of polymorph. But yeah, it doesn't surprise me there's no check for these edge cases.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 23:00

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

tasonir wrote:
Patashu wrote:Just had a random thought. Does Shadow Form make you immune to Shatter? (I don't think there's ever been a way to become intangible as a player character before, so there is probably no existing check/flag)

EDIT: It does not.

wisp form if you get zapped by a wand of polymorph. But yeah, it doesn't surprise me there's no check for these edge cases.

You mean wisp form gives you shatter immunity or it also needs to give you shatter immunity?

(Should make a shelf but I'm 2lazy)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 23:25

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

That wisp form would be intangible (or should be). And that both should give you shatter immunity, but I'm not surprised it doesn't, because who tests that.

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 16:37

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

I've tried a few spriggan enchanter runs with Dithmenos (I normally use Ashenzari) and so far my results have been poor; I'm definitely better at stealth, but the dudes who notice me are invariably the ones who are toughest do beat and I miss the ashenzari bonus to skills and the RNG generator taunts me (gave me a +8/+12 flaming +blink +stlth artifact dagger pre-temple, right after I converted at an early Dithmenos altar). Dithmenos penance seems like it would be really hard to survive (being randomly put to sleep seems pretty fatal!).

But, I've never won with an enchanter ; do any better players have an opinion on the merits of the two gods for stabbers?

Ken

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 18:02

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

I certainly could have won with Ash, but there were too many orbs of fire in Zot:5. Never tried Dith!

Vestibule Violator

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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 21:40

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

I tried a couple SpEn of Dith, and it was the only time I felt like I actually had enough stealth. I think I cleared Pan without taking a single torment. Would have gotten a Cerebov kill too if I hadn't flubbed up the post-stab battle. (of course, it would probably have been wiser to blink to the rune instead; I think I could have gotten away with the rune without a single point of damage)

Admittedly, I haven't played a SpEn of Ash yet.

Alas, I flubbed up the character in Tomb, since I hadn't realized shadow form gives protection from most of the death curses. (and even then, I made the mistake of getting greedy and wanting the treasure, even after I eventually got the rune and escaped)
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Saturday, 14th June 2014, 00:49

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

bump b/c I lose track of this if I don't bump it

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 20th June 2014, 11:28

Re: Dithmenos mechanics

What kind of damage do shadow beam/shard? Negative energy? Phisical like IMB?
The beam range is same as the mimiced spell? Is range reduced when a monster is hit?
How is calculated the power from the HD?
Some interesting facts/theories that I've found are:

1- Shadow mimic damage for melee and range is directly related to the skills, for spells it is related only to XL and spell level (if I read it correctly power depends only on HD of the shadow mimic). Mimic spells are capped at level 5, because 5*3 = 15 and XL/2 is at most 13.5. So casting higher level spells doesn't increase the mimic damage.
So based on the formulas above it appears that casting a low power IMB or a full power LCS result in nearly the same shadow mimic damage!
For example I'm now running a hybrid caster with a ring of wizardry and shadow shard seems to do more damage than the low power spells it mimics. But
Melee mimic doesn't do much damage with low skills but it can distract the target giving a chance to stab.
Ranged mimic seems completely irrelevant with a short bow and 8 points in bow. I suppose with a long bow and high skills it should be strong.

2-Also based on above Patashu info and some feedback it seems that shadow form doesn't nerf ranged combat!
The malus for melee is big but against creatures without SInv is offset by the stabs damage (depending on weapon used of course).
The malus for spells is big but I think it doesn't nerf what was cast before, so summons, tornado, clouds and so on can be used before shadow form (not really sure about this).

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