Pure stealth build is not viable (Also Dithmembos is meh))

[Curio]

...even with this new dithmenos god.
I have this guy, that currently limping on both legs because stealth just does not cut it right now.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0 (tiles) character file.

Silent the Imperceptible (Halfling Assassin)       Turns: 38882, Time: 03:41:50

HP 110/110       AC 18     Str 11      XL: 16   Next: 97%
MP  30/30        EV 33     Int 13      God: Dithmenos [*****.]
Gold 2453        SH  0     Dex 25      Spells:  0 memorised, 15 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis .     a - +4,+6 dagger (venom)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     q - +0 leather armour of Kesk {rElec rF+ MR+ Acc+4 Dam+4}
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     u - +2 hat
rElec  +         rRot     .     d - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     D - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     c - +2 pair of boots of Weightlessness {Str+3 Int+2}
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     M - amulet of rage
MR     ++...                    l - +6 ring of protection
                                C - ring of regeneration

@: wreathed by umbra, drained, very resistant to hostile enchantments, uncannily
stealthy
A: mutation resistance 1, slow metabolism 1
a: Shadow Step, Shadow Form, Renounce Religion, Evoke Berserk Rage


You are on level 1 of the Elven Halls.
You worship Dithmenos.
Dithmenos is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 6 branches of the dungeon, and seen 30 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer and Ice Cave.

You have collected 2712 gold pieces.
You have spent 259 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +4,+6 dagger of venom (weapon)
 b - a +0 blowgun
 N - a +1,+4 long sword of electrocution
Missiles
 e - 19 poisoned needles
 f - 8 curare-tipped needles
 o - 5 tomahawks of returning (quivered)
 v - 12 silver darts
 E - 3 darts of dispersal
 F - 4 throwing nets
Armour
 c - the +2 pair of boots of Weightlessness (worn) {Str+3 Int+2}
   (You acquired it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
 d - a +2 cloak (worn)
 q - the +0 leather armour of Kesk (worn) {rElec rF+ MR+ Acc+4 Dam+4}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your accuracy with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+4).
   It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+4).
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 u - a +2 hat (worn)
 B - a +2 shield of protection
 D - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
Magical devices
 g - a wand of teleportation (3)
 n - a wand of confusion {zapped: 3}
 w - a wand of draining {zapped: 1}
 O - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 7}
 Q - a wand of polymorph (5)
 S - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 1}
Comestibles
 h - 3 bread rations
 I - 3 meat rations
Scrolls
 i - a scroll of amnesia
 m - 3 scrolls of blinking
 A - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 J - a scroll of silence
 P - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 V - 2 scrolls of vulnerability
Jewellery
 l - a +6 ring of protection (right hand)
 r - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 s - an uncursed ring of positive energy
 t - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 y - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 C - a ring of regeneration (left hand)
 H - an uncursed ring of sustenance
 M - an amulet of rage (around neck)
 X - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 Z - an uncursed amulet of guardian spirit
Potions
 j - 2 potions of brilliance
 k - a potion of invisibility
 p - 2 potions of magic
 x - 8 potions of curing
 z - a potion of resistance
 G - 2 potions of heal wounds
 K - a potion of haste
 L - 3 potions of might
 R - 4 potions of porridge
Miscellaneous
 T - a fan of gales

   Skills:
 - Level 10,5(10,4) Fighting
 - Level 9,1(9,0) Short Blades
 - Level 5,1(5,0) Long Blades
 - Level 2,6(2,5) Throwing
 + Level 17,3(17,2) Dodging
 + Level 22,7(22,6) Stealth
 - Level 11,0(10,9) Invocations
 - Level 5,3(5,2) Evocations


You have 15 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:5             Orc (4/4) D:12
    Elf (1/3) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:11         Shoals (0/5) Lair:5
 Spider (0/5) Lair:5        Slime (0/6) Lair:8       Vaults (0/5) D:14
 Depths (1/5) D:15       

Shops:
D:8 :   D:11 ?(   D:12 :   Orc:1 :   Orc:3 (   Orc:4 =%:!

Portals:
Trove: D:10 (give 2 potions of cure mutation)

Annotations:
D:14 exclusion: Roxanne, Roxanne
Depths:1 Sojobo


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are small and have problems with some larger weapons.
You are somewhat resistant to further mutation.
You have a slow metabolism.


Message History

Things that are here:
a long sword; a leather armour
There is a staircase back to the Mines here.
Found 22 arrows.
Some of the chunks of flesh in your inventory have completely rotted away.
A deep elf knight comes into view. It is wielding a glowing scimitar.
You catch the helpless deep elf knight momentarily off-guard.
You perforate the deep elf knight like a sieve!!!
You kill the deep elf knight!
Dithmenos accepts your kill.
Dithmenos appreciates your extinguishing a source of fire.
Things that are here:
a glowing scimitar; a runed chain mail; an elf corpse
This raw flesh tastes terrible.
You continue eating. x2
Things that are here:
a long sword; a leather armour
You see here a glowing short sword.
Done exploring.
Saving game... please wait.


With my whopping 20+ stealth and umbra i was constantly detected by the lowly orcs in Mines. But now, when I being detected with something more dangerous like giant or dragon - I'm just fucked. So I started branching out in fighting and long blades for that long sword of electrocution. But then again - if I wanted to play pure melee fighter character i would start with one. Why the hell I needed to take side route through Stealth if I will end up underpowered in middle game? Its not even a lategame.
And this disdude didn't help much:
1) As mentioned before, even under umbra I got detected constantly.
2) That "bleed smoke" thingy is rare and i cant seem to see its purpose - on stealth character you should avoid most damage and when you get hit at 1/3 of your HP I dont know how the heck smoke out of your ass will help you. Monsters will still chase you.
3)Shadow step is nice...unless you shadowstep to sleeping stone giant and he wakes up at the same time as you land near him. FUCK!
4) double shadow striking (or whatever) is unnoticeable, and again - on stealth based character ideally you need 1 hit - Stab! And in open combat that occasional extra scratch with a dagger don't make any difference at all.
5)Shadow form sucks! It costs a lot of piety! It drains you! Reduces your damage output. And gives what exactly? Plain invisibility. Same that on a ring, cape, spell and potion. Every other source of invisibility is better than Ultimate God ability of Disgugos!

Im just disgusted with this character and his inability to fight something more dangerous than yak. <end_rant>

So, what i propose with Disth:
1)Make successful shadowstep instant, so that a monster that you teleported to wont wake up on the same turn. Because its just defeats a purpose of SS. I would better kited him or used a wand from afar.
2)Replace smoke bleed unless stealth improved (see below)
3)Buff that goddamn ultimate ability (remove drain, make it ignore sInv on monsters)

What I propose with Stealth.
Basically right now you either wake monster or you dont. You can try to sneak up to him but if you fail - he will track you, he also will wake every jerk near him and the will follow you, knowing exactly where you are! So, that 20+ lvl of skill investment are useful only for a series of coin flops. and when you are out of luck and detected - stealth wont help you now. I believe it should not be this way. IRL when someone spotted enemy - he can loose his pursuers with enough skill. Stealth skill.

What if monsters which loose you out of their sight for set amounts of turns (no less than 3-5), have to make another detection roll to spot you when you reappear (though, easier than before they didn't knew you was somewhere around). In this case even when detected you could run for cover, retreat in a maze or make use of that smoke if you in that open layout level. After dozen turns you sneak out and hopefully monsters will have not yet noticed you(?) but actively searching.

[Magipi]

The assassin thingy is blowgun and needles, no? If anything dangerous wakes up, you confuse or paralyze it, then stab it.

[Sandman25]

I believe smoke helps vs ranged monsters and Shadow Form helps to ninja runes. Also http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Ye ... 181253.txt

[Magipi]

I believe smoke helps vs ranged monsters and Shadow Form helps to ninja runes. Also http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Ye ... 181253.txt

An enchanter who used invisibility... only 18 times? Wow.

[Sandman25]

I believe smoke helps vs ranged monsters and Shadow Form helps to ninja runes. Also http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Ye ... 181253.txt

An enchanter who used invisibility... only 18 times? Wow.

Yes, I believe that game proves that sneaky stabber is completely possible, just compare sleeping stabs with others keeping in mind only 18 uses of invisibility.

  Code:

 Stab: Sleeping          |    13 |    20 |    46 |    95 |   160 |   220 |   232 |     5 ||   791
       Confused          |       |     5 |     4 |     5 |    19 |    25 |    12 |       ||    70
       Distracted        |       |       |     1 |       |     1 |    32 |    15 |     8 ||    57
       Invisible         |       |       |       |    12 |    22 |    22 |    19 |       ||    75
       Paralysed         |       |       |       |       |     2 |     1 |       |       ||     3
       Held in net/web   |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |       |     3 ||     7

[tabstorm]

I sort of agree that if you attempt to play a character that relies on stabbing to kill everything, if you do not have some hexes, or at least needles, you will not have a fun time, especially if you are not a spriggan. In principle you can just avoid everything that wakes up on such a character, however this can become a pain after awhile, so I think it is easiest to build a character to be able to melee most things that wake up. This does beg the question of why you'd bother to play a "pure" stabbing character in the first place, though, without starting as En or finding the book very early. In general I feel that crawl does not really encourage "pure" builds that are not melee and does somewhat railroad/encourage you into melee (on many characters) by the midgame - whether or not you feel this is good is up to you.

Regarding dithmenos, you do often get noticed even with 20+ stealth and umbra, it happens. it would be overpowered if you never got noticed under these circumstances. Shadow form is used more as a way to minimize damage while ninja-ing runes rather than as a replacement for invisibility, since it has a huge piety cost. I think that he was designed to have some tools that can help with a typical "stealth stab" character (umbra, shadowstep, shadowform) but also to have some universal appeal to characters that are not necessarily stabbers (+effective EV from umbra, shadow action with bigger weapons or conjurations, shadowform to ninja runes). Basically he will not make a character that lacks hexes/needles into a "pure" stabber, but will provide such a character with a stealth-related toolkit that will be helpful (i.e. you don't have to stab everything, but it's certainly nice to get a shadowstep->stab on a dangerous enemy or to shadowform->ninja a rune vault).

[sgrunt]

Shadow form sucks! It costs a lot of piety! It drains you! Reduces your damage output. And gives what exactly? Plain invisibility.

It also gives you 50% damage reduction and immunity to hostile enchantments. This is clearly spelled out in the ability description. The invisibility is just icing on the cake.

[Klown]

I've never had much luck with pure assassins(dagger&stealth) either. Even with massive stealth, half the monsters wake up anyways.
Leads me to just add stealth to better characters(MfGl, etc.). Can win against even enemies who wake up, but enjoys stabbing half the level.

[NessOnett]

1. So you want to just never get detected? How would this be balanced? How would anything be able to threaten you if you can just casually walk past everything? I feel like your use of the word 'constantly' is exaggerated. At very high levels of stealth, using speed and mobility to your advantage, you can sneak around/up on most things.
2. If you're low on health, smoke is probably the most helpful thing. AC and EV are unlikely to save you when already deep in the danger zone. But priests being unable to smite you. Yaktaurs being unable to shoot you. These things are very likely to save your life.
3. Happens. Would happen with higher likelihood if you used any other means to get close. But that's needing to pass a single check versus what? Like 7? If you don't wanna take the risk, don't. Nobody forces you to use it, if the risk is too high and you want to kite then nobody is stopping you. (Just like nobody forces you to summon Mahkleb demons if the risk of them being hostile is too high for the situation.) But it's a much more efficient alternative to trying to walk up on him.
4. No matter how much you 'try' to stab literally everything, sometimes you can't. Sometimes you have to fight. Which is why stealth characters appreciate the dual-training with longswords. In open combat a single extra attack may not mean much. But over the fight it is literally a 50% increase in your damage output. Effectively cutting all enemies to 2/3 their health(less than that if regen/healing is involved).
5. It is extremely different from basic invisibility. See below.



1. There is a big concern with making shadow step instant which is basically...you can't lose. If you can walk into a room full of a large number of sleeping things(like say, the entrance to the Vaults which is meant to be threatening), and can begin the fight by instantly and risk-less-ly(the key) killing the 10 most dangerous things(like uniques), before you clear out the fodder dudes to build that piety back up basically instantly, that nullifies much of the game. The other concern with this proposal is the ramifications for non-stealth characters. What would be in place to stop a heavy armored 0-stealth fighter from paralyzing someone on the edge of their umbra, and use them as a leapfrog to get in range of the rest of the pack(instantly...which means they have no chance to wake up)? Essentially giving flawless stealth to a character who has zero investment in it. Which makes training stealth even less attractive.
2. Smoke bleed is very useful. Blocking LoS is great. Maybe the proc chance needs to be upped(I'd like to see the upper bound of chance lowered, with the lower bound either static or lowered concurrently to give some semblance of reliability), but the effect overall is wonderful, especially for stealthy characters.
3. Shadow form has 2 big things going for it. The first is the lack of magical contamination, and this is very important for a reason I'll explain in a moment. 50% damage resistance is the other key. (It also has guaranteed smoke, which lends itself well, but is less important than the first 2 things.) I think if you're having an issue with this ability, it's because you' are using it backwards. For a normal character, a fighter. They go into a fight, and they fight. And if the fight looks like it is difficult or may go poorly, they often invis to aid their survivability while they continue to fight or run away. As a stealth character, up to this point, this was not a very valid strategy. One would use their invisible while sneaking and stabbing...avoiding an actual 'fight.' But when their invis ran out, they were in a bind. They couldn't invis to run away because their invis had been used to get in, and using it again immediately would cause magical over-contamination which would not only defeat the purpose of invis but would probably mutate you in the process. Shadow Form is that option of escape. You can use it when your normal invis has gone out as a means of escape. It obviously gives you invis, improves your defences, and gives you endless clouds of smoke to cover your escape, in exchange for lowering your offenses(because this is meant to be a defensive skill, and not an offensive one), and can be used despite already being mildly contaminated. tl;dr It's meant to be used in conjunction with normal invis, and not as a replacement for it.

As far as monsters not losing track of you...I am a bit confused on this. Every time I drop sight on a monster for more than a few turns, they almost always lose track of me. Even on unstealthy characters. They may make guesses to try and follow you, but provided you make no noise, they are basically clueless if you aren't running in a straight line. This is especially true for staircases. You go up one and come down a different one, the monster is just lost. Comparatively, on stealthy characters specifically, I have had monsters lose track of me and start wandering aimlessly as I'm standing right in front of them stabbing them in the face. So I'm fairly certain they have to regularly make checks(I don't know the exact mechanics, just my experience).


But as an overall response to the thread as a whole. "Pure" anything seems to be fairly actively discouraged in this game. Most fighters use at least utility spells. Most mages use some physical weapon. Most ranged characters have a melee weapon backup. Pure stealth seems fairly close to 'pure' anything else in terms of viability.

[and into]

Shadow form sucks! It costs a lot of piety! It drains you! Reduces your damage output. And gives what exactly? Plain invisibility.

It also gives you 50% damage reduction and immunity to hostile enchantments. This is clearly spelled out in the ability description. The invisibility is just icing on the cake.

And more smoke bleed than usual (unless that was changed).

[sgrunt]

And more smoke bleed than usual

Correct; it triggers on every hit.

[moocowmoocow]

Dagger of venom sucks too. Have you been checking all branded shortblades? What you really want is electrocution or pain.

[Curio]

The assassin thingy is blowgun and needles, no? If anything dangerous wakes up, you confuse or paralyze it, then stab it.

If i dont have confuse or paralise needles? What about undead and resistant monsters?

I believe smoke helps vs ranged monsters and Shadow Form helps to ninja runes. Also http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Ye ... 181253.txt

Too narrow and situational to be of any help really. About log - he has killed way more in melee than by stabbing, so that's far from pure stealth build.

Yes, I believe that game proves that sneaky stabber is completely possible, just compare sleeping stabs with others keeping in mind only 18 uses of invisibility.

I dont say its impossible. its just unlikely. Spriggans are just that good.

...so I think it is easiest to build a character to be able to melee most things that wake up. This does beg the question of why you'd bother to play a "pure" stabbing character in the first place, though, without starting as En or finding the book very early. In general I feel that crawl does not really encourage "pure" builds that are not melee and does somewhat railroad/encourage you into melee (on many characters) by the midgame - whether or not you feel this is good is up to you.

Because pure spellcaster and pure melee builds are more than viable. Why cant I be good stabber with race other than spriggan?

Regarding dithmenos, you do often get noticed even with 20+ stealth and umbra, it happens. it would be overpowered if you never got noticed under these circumstances.

Im not saying that it need be buffed. It just needs balance - simple dungeon orcs(2-3) was able to spot me under umbra with 20+ skill. That's just too random for my tastes.

Shadow form is used more as a way to minimize damage while ninja-ing runes rather than as a replacement for invisibility, since it has a huge piety cost. I think that he was designed to have some tools that can help with a typical "stealth stab" character (umbra, shadowstep, shadowform) but also to have some universal appeal to characters that are not necessarily stabbers (+effective EV from umbra, shadow action with bigger weapons or conjurations, shadowform to ninja runes). Basically he will not make a character that lacks hexes/needles into a "pure" stabber, but will provide such a character with a stealth-related toolkit that will be helpful (i.e. you don't have to stab everything, but it's certainly nice to get a shadowstep->stab on a dangerous enemy or to shadowform->ninja a rune vault).

I see now. When Dith was introduced I hoped that stealth classes was at last a peak. In reality its not that much for them in the end. I dont understand why there's gods that appeal only to spellcaster and we cant have one specifically designed only for stabbers.

It also gives you 50% damage reduction and immunity to hostile enchantments. This is clearly spelled out in the ability description. The invisibility is just icing on the cake.

So, let me get this straight - you become invisible so most monsters cant see you, therefore have trouble hitting you in melee and with spells anyway. Seems redundant.

[Sandman25]

Too narrow and situational to be of any help really. About log - he has killed way more in melee than by stabbing, so that's far from pure stealth build.

  Code:

Grand Total: 1317 creatures vanquished

  Code:

 Stab: Sleeping          |    13 |    20 |    46 |    95 |   160 |   220 |   232 |     5 ||   791
       Confused          |       |     5 |     4 |     5 |    19 |    25 |    12 |       ||    70
       Distracted        |       |       |     1 |       |     1 |    32 |    15 |     8 ||    57
       Invisible         |       |       |       |    12 |    22 |    22 |    19 |       ||    75
       Paralysed         |       |       |       |       |     2 |     1 |       |       ||     3
       Held in net/web   |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |       |     3 ||     7

791 + 70 + 57 + 75 + 3 + 3 = 999

999/1317=75%

  Code:

Melee: Dagger            |    54 |    62 |   214 |   156 |   358 |   873 |   314 |    75 ||  2106
       Quick blade       |       |       |       |   199 |    88 |   141 |    56 |     5 ||   489
       Cutlass           |       |       |       |       |       |       |   264 |     8 ||   272

Edit. Here is my HaBe with 968 sleeping stabs, I hope it proves that sneaky stabbers are possible.

  Code:

 Stab: Sleeping          |     2 |       |    19 |    76 |   146 |   133 |   129 |    80 |   383 ||   968
       Distracted        |       |       |     2 |     9 |    17 |    18 |    15 |    16 |   154 ||   231
       Invisible         |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |     8 ||     9
       Confused          |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |     1 |     7 ||     9
       Fleeing           |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |     4 |     5 ||    12
       Paralysed         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    28 ||    28
       Held in net/web   |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1

       Evoke Invisibilit |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
       Turn Visible      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1



[Curio]

Dagger of venom sucks too. Have you been checking all branded shortblades? What you really want is electrocution or pain.

For pain i need Necromancy skill to be effective and electrocution too noisy, isn't it?

1. So you want to just never get detected? How would this be balanced? How would anything be able to threaten you if you can just casually walk past everything? I feel like your use of the word 'constantly' is exaggerated. At very high levels of stealth, using speed and mobility to your advantage, you can sneak around/up on most things.

I hate when people shuffle my words in their favor. I ever said i dont want to be detected at all? How am I going to use my speed? Im not a spriggan, i dont have boots of running. Useless advice.

3. Happens. Would happen with higher likelihood if you used any other means to get close. But that's needing to pass a single check versus what? Like 7? If you don't wanna take the risk, don't. Nobody forces you to use it, if the risk is too high and you want to kite then nobody is stopping you. (Just like nobody forces you to summon Mahkleb demons if the risk of them being hostile is too high for the situation.) But it's a much more efficient alternative to trying to walk up on him.

If thats too much risk why this ability needed then?

4. No matter how much you 'try' to stab literally everything, sometimes you can't. Sometimes you have to fight. Which is why stealth characters appreciate the dual-training with longswords. In open combat a single extra attack may not mean much. But over the fight it is literally a 50% increase in your damage output. Effectively cutting all enemies to 2/3 their health(less than that if regen/healing is involved).

And thats why topic has name "Pure stealth build is not viable" Your point is?

1. There is a big concern with making shadow step instant which is basically...you can't lose. If you can walk into a room full of a large number of sleeping things(like say, the entrance to the Vaults which is meant to be threatening), and can begin the fight by instantly and risk-less-ly(the key) killing the 10 most dangerous things(like uniques), before you clear out the fodder dudes to build that piety back up basically instantly, that nullifies much of the game. The other concern with this proposal is the ramifications for non-stealth characters. What would be in place to stop a heavy armored 0-stealth fighter from paralyzing someone on the edge of their umbra, and use them as a leapfrog to get in range of the rest of the pack(instantly...which means they have no chance to wake up)? Essentially giving flawless stealth to a character who has zero investment in it. Which makes training stealth even less attractive.

You cant loose against 1(one) monster which is a target. All the others must do spot check - and here where stealth skill shines. Which leads us to 0-stealth fighter which be able to ineffectively "stab" that one monster(merely scratching him) and wake every other.
Usefulness of shadow form for stabber i mentioned in previous post. What if I dont have "normal" invis? Basically god of shadows that can turn you invis requires you to have another source of invis? Thats...not obvious at the least. And totally dumb at the most.
About loosing track - havent noticed anything of the likes. Monsters go in search mode after a very long period of time. And thats just tiresome to run away for 100+ turns to try stab monster again.

But as an overall response to the thread as a whole. "Pure" anything seems to be fairly actively discouraged in this game. Most fighters use at least utility spells. Most mages use some physical weapon. Most ranged characters have a melee weapon backup. Pure stealth seems fairly close to 'pure' anything else in terms of viability.

So you have not seen "pure" mages with fighting skill less than 10 or fighters with spellcasting less than 10 that managed to win the game? Because I have seen many. But stabber without fighting skill just wont do.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Invis is an extremely powerful ability, rendering the majority of the game's enemies entirely harmless. Invisibility is dramatically weaker than the two effects Grunt mentioned.

Shadow Form is in the same uber tier of ridiculously powerful god abilities with Zin's Sanctuary and Lugonu's Corruption among others, which is why it is so limited, and why Invocations skill was added to Dithmenos pretty much just to balance this one ability.

Because pure spellcaster and pure melee builds are more than viable.

They are self-imposed challenges, just like "pure stealth". If you want to win Crawl by only training one skill, worship Elyvilon. (god i hate Elyvilon)

That's just too random for my tastes.

Welcome to Crawl, where no matter what your defenses are, that alich can still blast you for a hundred damage in one turn. Except oh wait, Shadow Form guarantees that damage gets cut in half!

[Curio]

@Sandman25
Misunderstood log. But then again 1) spriggan 2)17 Hexes
Not so pure to me, because thats enchanter.
And if you start as assasin and end up like enchanter anyway if you want to win... why theres assasins?

Welcome to Crawl, where no matter what your defenses are, that alich can still blast you for a hundred damage in one turn. Except oh wait, Shadow Form guarantees that damage gets cut in half!

I welcomed myself to Crawl years ago. but that doesnt mean that liches(or simulacrums) should one-shot you or you should have an ability for which you actually pay hunger an piety should put you in more danger than if you just didnt use it.
There's a thin line between "hardcore game" which Crawl should be and "unfair fuck you whatever you do" which is just plain bad design.

[Sandman25]

Oh, yes, pure stabber is not possible unless you are Sp or Vp. I am not sure why you are talking about Fighting, its primary bonus is to increase HP which is useful for any character. Stabber of Oka can win with 3 levels in Short Blades and 0 in magic IMHO while Tr will have very hard time playing as pure caster.

[Sar]

For pain i need Necromancy skill

The horror.

electrocution too noisy

Elec proccing doesn't do any additional noise.

[Curio]

For pain i need Necromancy skill

The horror.

The sarcasm!

electrocution too noisy

Elec proccing doesn't do any additional noise.

I wish your previous quotation was as informative, instead of being plain mocking. How you became counselor again?

[Curio]

Oh, yes, pure stabber is not possible unless you are Sp or Vp. I am not sure why you are talking about Fighting, its primary bonus is to increase HP which is useful for any character. Stabber of Oka can win with 3 levels in Short Blades and 0 in magic IMHO while Tr will have very hard time playing as pure caster.

You are right. Halflings shouldnt be recommended for assasins then?

[Sar]

Classes in Crawl are starting sets of items and skills, not strict guidelines on how you must play your character. HaAs is good because it's a Ha that starts with a cloak and a blowgun with needles (strong) and some curare (extremely strong). I think mikee said that As is a Gl that forgot nets at home but grabbed some curare? That's a pretty apt description.

[tabstorm]

Regarding the As background, it's not really a stealth background, even though the class descriptions says "Assassins are all about stealth" - though you do start with XP in stealth, I think this is a little misleading, because as has been discussed in this thread, you are not really going to play a "pure" stabber very well without some of the spells from the En book, or needles. It's more like a Gl that starts with a short blade and needles. En is the stealth background in this game, in the sense that you get the tools you need to play a "pure" stabber from the start.

[Sandman25]

Yes, Ha have high Dex and small size, it helps with EV, Stealth, damage from stabs and chance to stab with tier 2-3 stabs.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

And if you start as assasin and end up like enchanter anyway if you want to win... why theres assasins?

Q: What is the most unique and difficult to replace aspect of Assassin? A) a couple levels of Stealth skill, or B) a Blowgun, a pile of poisoned needles, and a couple curare needles

Q: Do poisoned needles or curare needles benefit stabbing in any way?

Q: Is the "Assassin" background placed in the "Stealth" category or the "Warrior" category when you create your character?

Backgrounds are starting packages, nothing more. But, typically speaking, As ends up more like Gl than En; the most popular gods for winning Assassins are Okawaru and Trog, followed by Nemelex and Makhleb.

but that doesnt mean that liches(or simulacrums) should one-shot you

You're right. It just means you should go play a different game, one that has design goals you agree with.

[moocowmoocow]

Dagger of venom sucks too. Have you been checking all branded shortblades? What you really want is electrocution or pain.

For pain i need Necromancy skill to be effective and electrocution too noisy, isn't it?

What Sar said (though he could have been nicer about it). Even 10 necromancy (the more the better of course) will chew monsters up with pain brand, and the school has great spells to boot. Electrocution will make quick work too of even giants and dragons. I've come to really enjoy stabber... the only monsters that I really have trouble killing are OoFs. I've always used Shadow Creatures to kill those, although a demon blade is doable too. With shortblades the base damage is just too low for OoF I think.

[Sar]

You can quaff !might for orbs, 10 slaying on a fast weapons makes a short work of them usually.

That assumes you have good enough defences, though. You can also just ninja the orb - Shadow Form really shines here.

[Curio]

Regarding the As background, it's not really a stealth background, even though the class descriptions says "Assassins are all about stealth" - though you do start with XP in stealth, I think this is a little misleading, because as has been discussed in this thread, you are not really going to play a "pure" stabber very well without some of the spells from the En book, or needles. It's more like a Gl that starts with a short blade and needles. En is the stealth background in this game, in the sense that you get the tools you need to play a "pure" stabber from the start.

yeah i figured that out after getting totally useless character. Maybe it should be more clear then?

Yes, Ha have high Dex and small size, it helps with EV, Stealth, damage from stabs and chance to stab with tier 2-3 stabs.

Aaaand all of this is does not matter if you spotted.

Classes in Crawl are starting sets of items and skills, not strict guidelines on how you must play your character. HaAs is good because it's a Ha that starts with a cloak and a blowgun with needles (strong) and some curare (extremely strong). I think mikee said that As is a Gl that forgot nets at home but grabbed some curare? That's a pretty apt description.

What about the horror? Im too dumb to understand anything other than simple words. Counsel me would you?

[tabstorm]

Dagger of venom sucks too. Have you been checking all branded shortblades? What you really want is electrocution or pain.

For pain i need Necromancy skill to be effective and electrocution too noisy, isn't it?

What Sar said (though he could have been nicer about it). Even 10 necromancy (the more the better of course) will chew monsters up with pain brand, and the school has great spells to boot. Electrocution will make quick work too of even giants and dragons. I've come to really enjoy stabber... the only monsters that I really have trouble killing are OoFs. I've always used Shadow Creatures to kill those, although a demon blade is doable too. With shortblades the base damage is just too low for OoF I think.

for OOF your best bet is if you can't avoid them to use some combination of might, allies, evokers, god abilities, maybe berserk if you really have to but this is obviously a bit risky in zot:5. This is true of other weapon types as well but not really necessary on things with more base damage.

[tabstorm]

Regarding the As background, it's not really a stealth background, even though the class descriptions says "Assassins are all about stealth" - though you do start with XP in stealth, I think this is a little misleading, because as has been discussed in this thread, you are not really going to play a "pure" stabber very well without some of the spells from the En book, or needles. It's more like a Gl that starts with a short blade and needles. En is the stealth background in this game, in the sense that you get the tools you need to play a "pure" stabber from the start.

yeah i figured that out after getting totally useless character. Maybe it should be more clear then?

Yes, Ha have high Dex and small size, it helps with EV, Stealth, damage from stabs and chance to stab with tier 2-3 stabs.

Aaaand all of this is does not matter if you spotted.

Classes in Crawl are starting sets of items and skills, not strict guidelines on how you must play your character. HaAs is good because it's a Ha that starts with a cloak and a blowgun with needles (strong) and some curare (extremely strong). I think mikee said that As is a Gl that forgot nets at home but grabbed some curare? That's a pretty apt description.

What about the horror? Im too dumb to understand anything other than simple words. Counsel me would you?

I don't think it would be bad to reword the description a bit to avoid potentially misleading players.

[Sandman25]

Yes, Ha have high Dex and small size, it helps with EV, Stealth, damage from stabs and chance to stab with tier 2-3 stabs.

Aaaand all of this is does not matter if you spotted.

I am not sure you noticed

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Do you know what "distracted" means?

[Curio]

but that doesnt mean that liches(or simulacrums) should one-shot you

You're right. It just means you should go play a different game, one that has design goals you agree with.

Show me where it stated in design goals that something should one-shot your character and then tell me what should or shouldnt do

Do you know what "distracted" means?

Yup. Your point?

[Sandman25]

Do you know what "distracted" means?

Yup. Your point?

My point is that not many other species would get 3 stabs per BiA. So yes, Ha is very good for As, it even has excellent throwing aptitude.

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[Sar]

Show me where it stated in design goals that something should one-shot your character

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Balance
========================================
The notions of balance, or being imbalanced, are extremely vague. Here is
our definition: Crawl is designed to be a challenging game, and is also
renowned for its randomness. However, this does not mean that wins are an
arbitrary matter of luck: the skill of players will have the largest
impact. So, yes, there may be situations where you are doomed - no action
could have saved your life. But then, from the midgame on, most deaths are
not of this type: By this stage, almost all casualties can be traced back
to actual mistakes; if not tactical ones, then of a strategical type, like
wrong skilling (too broad or too narrow), unwise use of resources (too
conservative or too liberal), or wrong decisions about branch/god/gear.
The possibility of unavoidable deaths is a larger topic in computer games.
Ideally, a game like this would be really challenging and have both random
layout and random course of action, yet still be winnable with perfect
play. This goal seems out of reach. Thus, computer games can be soft in the
sense that optimal play ensures a win. Apart from puzzles, though, this
means that the game is solved from the outset; this is where the lack of a
human game-master is obvious. Alternatively, they can be hard in the sense
that unavoidable deaths can occur. We feel that the latter choice provides
much more fun in the long run.

From "Philosophy" subsection the manual, accessible in the game by pressing ?n.

What about the horror? Im too dumb to understand anything other than simple words. Counsel me would you?

what

[Curio]

What about the horror? Im too dumb to understand anything other than simple words. Counsel me would you?

what

i dont understand what your remark about pain brand meant. Explain it to me like for a dumb person. Because it seems, from your viewpoint, I am.

[Lasty]

With my whopping 20+ stealth and umbra i was constantly detected by the lowly orcs in Mines.

A lone orc noticing your with that much stealth is quite rare, unless you're being noisy or wearing heavy armour or something. If you genuinely couldn't sneak up on lone orcs repeatedly despite having uncanny stealth or better, then you experienced extremely bad luck. What is much more likely is that you had many orcs in sight, meaning that many separate checks of your stealth were happening. If even one orc succeeds at noticing you, they should and wake all the rest. The lesson to take from this is to be cautious about approaching groups of monsters when stealthy, and only do it if you're certain you can also kill the monsters if they wake up. If you must approach them, find a way to minimize the amount of time you spend in LOS of each monster.

But then again - if I wanted to play pure melee fighter character i would start with one. Why the hell I needed to take side route through Stealth if I will end up underpowered in middle game? Its not even a lategame.

You're right that training stealth alone will not allow you to sleep-stab every monster. That's for the best, because sleep stabs are non-events: you are not in danger, and you kill your target with a single attack. If it were easy to do that to all monsters simply by training Stealth -- or even training Stealth and also using the shadow god -- it would be boring and pointless. You should expect to need to do some work, either by making monsters stabbable in one of the wide variety of ways that exist or by killing some monsters without stabbing.

That "bleed smoke". . . when you get hit at 1/3 of your HP I dont know how the heck smoke out of your ass will help you. Monsters will still chase you.

It blocks line of sight, and as a stealthy character you can make even better use than the standard "prevent anything from ranged attacking you", which is itself pretty amazing. I'll come back to this point later.

Shadow step is nice...unless you shadowstep to sleeping stone giant and he wakes up at the same time as you land near him. FUCK!

If shadow step was "pay 2 piety to instantly kill any sleeping monster", it would be absurdly overpowered. As it is, it's pretty sick as "pay 2 piety to instantly kill any sleeping monster if they don't notice you after a single stealth check". On stabby characters I've used it to kill Sojobo and his band and the Enchantress and her band without waking a single one. If you think it's weak, you're probably underestimating how much time spent in a monster's LOS contributes to the odds of that monster noticing you.

double shadow striking (or whatever) is unnoticeable, and again - on stealth based character ideally you need 1 hit - Stab!

You're right on this point: shadow mimic is worst for stabbers using short blades as a primary damage source. It's decent with ranged combat and heavy melee, and it's great with conjurers. That the god offers something other than stabbing support is interesting and an example of good design.

What if monsters which loose you out of their sight for set amounts of turns (no less than 3-5), have to make another detection roll to spot you when you reappear (though, easier than before they didn't knew you was somewhere around). In this case even when detected you could run for cover, retreat in a maze or make use of that smoke if you in that open layout level. After dozen turns you sneak out and hopefully monsters will have not yet noticed you(?) but actively searching.

Actually, this is pretty much exactly how it does work already. When you aren't in sight of a monster, they start having to make checks against your stealth to keep following you. These checks are affected by monster intelligence. On my moderately-or-more stealthy characters I can usually lose stupid monsters after about 5-10 turns out of sight. Particularly intelligent monsters may take a bit longer.

[Sar]

What I meant is that pain is a very good brand and Necro is a very good and versatile skill. Getting 10~ Necro for pain won't make your character worse, if you can do that.

[Tiktacy]

Curio, please calm down. I think there is a disconnect on game philosophy here, don't be so aggressive.

[Sandman25]

Actually, this is pretty much exactly how it does work already. When you aren't in sight of a monster, they start having to make checks against your stealth to keep following you. These checks are affected by monster intelligence. On my moderately-or-more stealthy characters I can usually lose stupid monsters after about 5-10 turns out of sight. Particularly intelligent monsters may take a bit longer.

Very true. The easiest way to see it is to worship Ashenzari, you will see how fast monsters lose track of you despite your relatively low Stealth. I had to shout before they finally came into range again, many elves just cannot move 8 tiles without forgetting about you.

[Sar]

I once played a FeMo of Chei with something like 15 Stealth. I could open a door to a room full of monsters, lay a poisonous cloud, close the door and just wait, because monsters (intelligent ones, like yaktaurs and giants) would forget about me instantly.

[Curio]

What I meant is that pain is a very good brand and Necro is a very good and versatile skill. Getting 10~ Necro for pain won't make your character worse, if you can do that.

What obstructed you to answer just like that?

Curio, please calm down. I think there is a disconnect on game philosophy here, don't be so aggressive.

So being passive-agressive is fine though? Not my style.

Lasty, thanks for polite and informative answer. I appreciate it.

Basically Dis is not stabber god then. Too bad. Still cant see why it should cater also for casters - they already have many caster gods.

[dck]

wow this is a horrible thread
anyway Dang is one of the worst gods for stabby guys since normally your stabby guy should be enough on his own to stab important things that notice him reliably (by say dazzling them or turning invisible or distracting them or whatever). That assumption made (and if this assumption does not apply then you're not a stabby guy and are just a jerk with a dagger) what you normally what from your god are options on how to deal with things. Kiku and Fedhas are my favorite stabby guy gods, since they offer a wide range of things I can do when shit goes down and they are better than Dang for these characters.
Now Dang ain't bad, far from it, but in reality he just improves the things you already have access to and only really brings new things to the table at really high piety (and invo).

Regardless wow this thread is awful and "stealth builds" as you call them would be incredibly stupid if they did in fact work (similar to how Ely is incredibly stupid because it works).

[and into]

If you just want to vent about an annoying death or frustrating game play experience—which is something all of us want to do at some point or another—please just post a CiP or YASD thread in that forum, or in CYC. (Ideally it would be nice if we had a feature like "venting" tags or something to let people know that this is just someone letting off a bit of steam.)

A lot of posts in Advice and even some in GDD basically just boil down to "I had this bad experience with this one individual character, and that means something is wrong with this game and needs to be fixed, and I'm not actually interested in discussion about how maybe this bad experience could be changed if I approached things differently." When you feel that way and post about it in Advice or GDD it is only ever going to end up in some bad flame-y back and forth.

I'm locking the thread and deleting particularly bad or meanspirited posts. Everyone take a deep breath, drink a glass of water, punch a wall, roll a Troll Berserker and stomp Sigmund, do what you gotta do. Thanks.