Mutationless Branches


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 155

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 16:42

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 16:52

Mutationless Branches

I am currently on a DEFE(generic I know), and I have cleared out the normal first branches. Swamp, Vault, SpiderNest, ElvenHalls, Depths. I still have yet to find any mutation resistance, and almost no cure mutation potions to speak of. I have only gotten this far a few times(yet to actually 'win'), and I'm a little unsure where I should be going next. Last time I tried to go to hell without rMut, I got hit by 3 mutations inside a minute from ambient effects, so that seems a poor choice. But from what the wiki tells me, most of the latter branches have heavy odds of mutating you(outside of the Crypt...where I always have poor luck with silences).

So I guess the question, put simply, is: "where do I go?"

As for going to Zot, I think that a bit unwise at the moment. I am a little behind where I usually am at this point experience-wise, so feeling mildly weak. And without rMut, OoF seem as scary as ever.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 17:02

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 17:04

Re: Mutationless Branches

Zot isn't that mutation heavy, it's mainly just OOFs. Are you planning to try extended, or just win? If you want to win, don't worry too much about the mutations. If you want to do extended, maybe do zot until you see an OOF and then run away...

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 155

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 16:42

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 17:28

Re: Mutationless Branches

I'd like to try out a bit of extended. Maybe ~5 runes? if Possible. Unfortunately I haven't found any good translocation books, so my options for running away from OoFs are limited to consumables(they outrun me), so I'm not sure I want to risk too many encounters with them if I'm gonna be exploring more branches(and possibly finding rMut) before I need to. But regardless of if I dip into Zot a bit or not, where would I go next?
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 301

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 16:19

Location: Tel'aran'rhiod

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 17:29

Re: Mutationless Branches

rMut is overrated. If you just want to win go to Zot and do so. The negative effect of almost all mutations can be mitigated (Clarity, Stasis, ...). In my opinion the worst you can get is -X% HP and as long as that does not put you in one-shot territory everything is fine :-)

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 17:02

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 17:36

Re: Mutationless Branches

You could do tomb/crypt, there's a lot of stuff to worry about there, but I don't think mutations are an issue there.

If you're afraid of that area, I've got other, riskier suggestions...

Is there a zig for you to try? It might be worth poking around for a few levels, and hoping for an rmut amulet.
Slime obviously has some mutation threats, but with careful play you could probably manage. Shining eyes are slow.
Zot's not terribly likely to give you OOFs before zot5, but there aren't any guarantees...


Any of these options is less likely to land you a win than just going through zot and grabbing the orb, but since you said you want more runes this seems like your best options to me.

Dis Charger

Posts: 2089

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 18:32

Re: Mutationless Branches

NessOnett wrote:I'd like to try out a bit of extended. Maybe ~5 runes?

If you have never won before, I think this is not a good idea. Win this game, and try something fancy later. But it's your game, of course.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 155

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 16:42

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 18:39

Re: Mutationless Branches

Thanks for the advice, I went slowly through the slime pits and managed to clear it out(though my eyes got a little blurry in the process). And luckily enough, found an amulet of rMut at the bottom. Unfortunately not a lot of experience to be found, so still feeling a bit weak(well under XL27). Now just to decide where to go next. Where's a safe way to gain a few levels before I make a run at Zot5?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 18:45

Re: Mutationless Branches

You don't need XL 27 to win, especially as DEFE.

Blades Runner

Posts: 552

Joined: Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 21:11

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 18:47

Re: Mutationless Branches

Crypt is your safest bet for XP outside of Zot. You really shouldn't have problems in Zot if you play careful. The only challenging creatures, if you're fighting 1v1, should be OoF, ancient liches, and maybe electric golems if you don't have Relec. Before going to extended, you should really just try Zot first, and leave if it is too hard. Majority of Zot is just dragons and draconians, with the moth of wrath and ghost moth wild cards thrown in.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 430

Joined: Saturday, 1st June 2013, 21:09

Location: Russia

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 20:38

Re: Mutationless Branches

NessOnett wrote:I'd like to try out a bit of extended. Maybe ~5 runes?

I think, it doesn't matter, did you win before, or not. Go for these shiny 15 beckoning runes! That's the win!
English is NOT my native language.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 614

Joined: Tuesday, 31st December 2013, 19:51

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 20:52

Re: Mutationless Branches

GlassGo wrote:I think, it doesn't matter, did you win before, or not. Go for these shiny 15 beckoning runes! That's the win!


YASD bait
114491 | Pan | Entered the realm of Gloorx Vloq.
114491 | Pan | Noticed Gloorx Vloq
114492 | Pan | Killed Gloorx Vloq

true lords of shadow NEVER sleep

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 430

Joined: Saturday, 1st June 2013, 21:09

Location: Russia

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 21:12

Re: Mutationless Branches

Lyrick wrote:
GlassGo wrote:I think, it doesn't matter, did you win before, or not. Go for these shiny 15 beckoning runes! That's the win!


YASD bait

Nope, it's reminder, that 3-rune win devaluated after first such win.
English is NOT my native language.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1785

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 22:12

Re: Mutationless Branches

NessOnett wrote:Thanks for the advice, I went slowly through the slime pits and managed to clear it out(though my eyes got a little blurry in the process). And luckily enough, found an amulet of rMut at the bottom. Unfortunately not a lot of experience to be found, so still feeling a bit weak(well under XL27). Now just to decide where to go next. Where's a safe way to gain a few levels before I make a run at Zot5?

I'm surprised no one has asked yet; could you provide a character dump? You'll find them in your morgues folder offline and or on the servers (feel free to ask if you need help finding it), and then you throw it all on here between some code tags so it doesn't make things crazy. It will make it much, much easier for people to assess your character. What are you casting with? What are your defensive options? A lot of the advice we could give isn't very helpful because it will be very general.

GlassGo wrote:Nope, it's reminder, that 3-rune win devaluated after first such win.

This isn't true of everyone. I know several players who refuse to do anything more than 3 runes now, and I suspect the majority of the tiny fraction of crawl players that can consistently win the game prefer to win a mix of 3-rune and 15-rune games, as well as anything in between. Some people get bored with the extended content, and other players just don't want to bother with the time commitment.

Personally, I usually play the wait-and-see game. After picking up the third rune, it's easy to assess the character's capabilities and how much work it'll take to get fully prepared. If it's something I'm willing to do, I usually go for it, but the 3 rune game has its endless attractions.

For this message the author archaeo has received thanks: 3
duvessa, GlassGo, Sar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2089

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 22:53

Re: Mutationless Branches

GlassGo wrote:
Lyrick wrote:
GlassGo wrote:I think, it doesn't matter, did you win before, or not. Go for these shiny 15 beckoning runes! That's the win!


YASD bait

Nope, it's reminder, that 3-rune win devaluated after first such win.


You made a mistake, this is not CYC.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 155

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 16:42

Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 23:53

Re: Mutationless Branches

archaeo wrote:I'm surprised no one has asked yet; could you provide a character dump? You'll find them in your morgues folder offline and or on the servers (feel free to ask if you need help finding it), and then you throw it all on here between some code tags so it doesn't make things crazy. It will make it much, much easier for people to assess your character. What are you casting with? What are your defensive options? A lot of the advice we could give isn't very helpful because it will be very general.

  Code:
1886498 Ness the Archmage (level 27, 110/164 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Elf Fire Elementalist on Apr 17, 2014.
             Was the Champion of Vehumet.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 4 runes on Apr 18, 2014!
             
             The game lasted 08:54:29 (105035 turns).

Ness the Archmage (Deep Elf Fire Elementalist)    Turns: 105035, Time: 08:54:29

HP 110/164       AC 19     Str 11      XL: 27
MP  38/50        EV 32     Int 31      God: Vehumet [******]
Gold 5736        SH 28     Dex 23      Spells: 18 memorised,  2 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis +     a - staff of fire
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     c - +4 robe "Celo" {Dex+3 SInv Stlth+}
rNeg   + . .     Conserve .     O - +3 shield
rPois  .         rCorr    .     e - +2 helmet {Int+3}
rElec  .         rRot     .     T - +2 cloak of the Thief {+Fog Dam-3 SInv Stlth++}
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     P - +2 pair of gloves of the Gloaming {Str+2 Dex+5}
rMut   +         Warding  .     b - +2 pair of boots
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     N - amulet of the Sturgeon {rMut rC+}
MR     +++..                    j - ring of positive energy
                                U - ring of protection from magic

@: deflect missiles, very slightly contaminated, hasted (expiring), delayed
fireball, drained, very quick, extremely resistant to hostile enchantments,
fairly stealthy
A: blink 1, blurry vision 1, dopey 1, slow metabolism 2
a: Blink, Renounce Religion, Release Delayed Fireball, Evoke Fog
0: Orb of Zot
}: 4/15 runes: decaying, slimy, silver, gossamer


You escaped.
You worshipped Vehumet.
Vehumet was exalted by your worship.
You were very full.

You visited 10 branches of the dungeon, and saw 61 of its levels.
You also visited: Sewer and Ossuary.

You collected 6852 gold pieces.
You spent 1116 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Armour
 b - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
 c - the +4 robe "Celo" (worn) {Dex+3 SInv Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It makes you much more stealthy.
 e - a +2 helmet of intelligence (worn)
 O - a +3 shield (worn)
 P - the +2 pair of gloves of the Gloaming (worn) {Str+2 Dex+5}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
 T - the +2 cloak of the Thief (worn) {+Fog Dam-3 SInv Stlth++}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (-3).
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It can be evoked to emit clouds of fog.
   It makes you much more stealthy.
Magical devices
 s - a wand of invisibility (5)
 u - a wand of digging (11)
 H - a wand of teleportation (5)
Scrolls
 d - 3 scrolls of recharging
 q - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 F - 3 scrolls of holy word
 M - 3 scrolls of fog
 Q - a scroll of blinking
 R - 3 scrolls of fear
Jewellery
 j - a ring of positive energy (right hand)
 E - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
 J - an uncursed ring of fire
 N - the amulet of the Sturgeon (around neck) {rMut rC+}
   (You took it off an ironbrand convoker on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [amulet of resist mutation]
   It protects you from cold.
 U - a ring of protection from magic (left hand)
Potions
 k - 2 potions of might
 l - 3 potions of agility
 o - 5 potions of haste
 r - 3 potions of invisibility
 t - 10 potions of curing
 z - 8 potions of heal wounds
 A - a potion of magic
 D - 3 potions of brilliance
 G - 3 potions of cure mutation
 I - 2 potions of resistance
 K - 4 potions of restore abilities
Magical staves
 a - an uncursed staff of fire (weapon)


   Skills:
 + Level 14.9(14.8) Fighting
 - Level 5.6(5.5) Armour
 + Level 19.8(19.7) Dodging
 - Level 2.4(2.3) Stealth
 - Level 11.0(10.9) Shields
 O Level 27(26.8) Spellcasting
 * Level 24.7(24.5) Conjurations
 - Level 12.1(12.0) Charms
 - Level 11.1(11.0) Summonings
 * Level 24.4(24.2) Fire Magic
 - Level 2.6(2.5) Air Magic


You had 2 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           ########     0%          4    None
b - Bolt of Fire          Conj/Fire      ########..   0%          6    None
c - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ########..   1%          9    ####...
d - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ######..     1%          2    None
e - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ########..   0%          5    None
f - Haste                 Chrm           #######.     1%          6    None
g - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ######       1%          2    None
h - Orb of Destruction    Conj           ########..   1%          7    None
i - Delayed Fireball      Conj/Fire      N/A          1%          7    None
j - Ring of Flames        Chrm/Fire      ########..   1%          7    None
k - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       ######....   4%          6    None
l - Aura of Abjuration    Summ           #######...   1%          6    None
m - Apportation           Tloc           #####.....   1%          1    None
n - Passwall              Trmt/Erth      #####.....   1%          3    None
o - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ######....   1%          3    None
p - Flight                Chrm/Air       ######....   1%          3    None
q - Sublimation of Blood  Necr           #####.....   1%          2    None
r - Passage of Golubria   Tloc           N/A          8%          4    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:5             Orc (4/4) D:12
    Elf (3/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:9           Swamp (5/5) Lair:4
 Spider (5/5) Lair:5        Slime (6/6) Lair:7       Vaults (5/5) D:14
  Blade (0/1) Vaults:3      Crypt (0/5) Vaults:2        Zot (5/5) Depths:5
 Depths (5/5) D:15       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva
Lugonu

Shops:
D:4 ?   D:5 *   Orc:3 [   Orc:4 **!=   Elf:3 *   Vaults:1 [   Vaults:3 (   Vaults:5 (

Portals:
Hell: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:4
Pandemonium: Depths:3 Depths:5
Ziggurat: Depths:1 Depths:5


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You can translocate small distances at will.
Your vision is a little blurry.
You are dopey. (Int -2)
You need consume almost no food.


Message History

You feel much better.
An iron devil and a pandemonium lord come into view.
Kluowked gurgles, "Submit, thou tasty breakfast!"
The iron devil screeches!
You feel yourself speed up.
A large abomination comes into view.
Kluowked sneers, "Despond, thou tasty breakfast!"
A kobold comes into view. It is wielding a dagger.
The kobold shouts!
The kobold throws an exploding dart. You block the exploding dart. The exploding dart explodes!
The explosion of dart fragments engulfs you!
A ynoxinul comes into view.
The ynoxinul gestures.
There is a large open door here.
Your extra speed is starting to run out.
Kluowked sneers, "Thy hope shall be my meal!"
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon here.
Kluowked hits you!
The ynoxinul gestures.
You have escaped!

  ######.#  ##......#........
       #.# ##....##.#.###....
      ##.###....##?...# #....
     ##........###(...# #....
     #....#######P....# #....
     #...##     #P.P?.# ##.##
     #..#######?#...?.####.##
     #..###P.'..#.?..........
    ##.###PP.#.P#......###.##
    #.####?..####..........#
    #.#P?#?...#...P.P......##
    #.'.P#P...2...?.?........
   ##.'.P#?@&.'......P.....##
   #..#P?#P..P#.P5.3...###.#
   #..####P.^####.....## #.#
####...###P?.#P.#.P?..####.##
#.......###P.'.?#.?..........
#.......#######P#...?..###.##
#........##   ###...P.####.##
#.........#######......K.....
#..............###.(#.####.##
#...............##......##.##
#.............#..##.....##...
#.............##.%......#####


You could see Kluowked, a tormentor, a ynoxinul and an ufetubus.

Vanquished Creatures
  the royal jelly (Slime:6)
  5 orbs of fire
  6 ancient liches
  Saint Roka (Depths:3)
  3 curse toes
  3 Killer Klowns
  8 golden dragons
  Frederick (Depths:4)
  3 electric golems
  13 bone dragons
  A Brimstone Fiend (Elf:3)
  Asterion (Vaults:2)
  20 tentacled monstrosities
  25 Orb Guardians (Zot:5)
  An azure jelly (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  2 deep elf blademasters (Elf:3)
  3 titans (Vaults:5)
  2 deep elf master archers (Elf:3)
  2 sphinxes (Vaults:5)
  2 liches
  2 Executioners
  19 storm dragons
  A thorn hunter (Swamp:5)
  Rupert (Elf:3)
  6 tengu reavers
  Frances (Elf:2)
  29 acid blobs
  Kirke (D:14)
  9 shadow dragons
  3 draconian monks
  13 azure jellies
  4 draconian scorchers
  8 fire giants
  Donald (Swamp:4)
  3 draconian knights
  10 ghost moths
  10 frost giants
  23 vault wardens
  An iron dragon (Vaults:5)
  7 deep elf sorcerers (Elf:3)
  A balrug (Depths:5)
  Gastronok (Lair:1)
  An orc warlord (Elf:1)
  A war gargoyle (Vaults:5)
  7 emperor scorpions
  6 draconian zealots
  2 draconian shifters
  9 deep elf demonologists
  22 stone giants
  A draconian annihilator (Zot:3)
  4 grey draconians
  A spriggan defender (Depths:4)
  6 green draconians
  A vampire knight (Depths:5)
  2 yellow draconians
  10 purple draconians
  Azrael (Elf:2)
  3 white draconians
  7 deep elf annihilators
  4 black draconians
  2 mottled draconians
  5 red draconians
  4 dire elephants
  7 pale draconians
  37 vault guards
  6 deep elf death magi
  Snorg (Lair:5)
  21 fire dragons
  6 death oozes (Slime:6)
  19 ironheart preservers
  9 deep elf high priests
  8 ettins
  A minotaur (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
  20 yaktaur captains
  7 great orbs of eyes
  12 ice dragons
  Fannar (Orc:4)
  Harold (Lair:5)
  3 rakshasas
  8 death cobs
  5 spriggan air magi
  3 shambling mangroves
  Erica (Orc:2)
  4 spectral elves
  17 deep troll earth magi
  11 alligators
  13 hydras
  19 ogre magi
  6 deep troll shamans
  10 death yaks
  A tengu warrior (Depths:3)
  A soul eater (Elf:3)
  Urug (D:11)
  6 orc high priests
  2 spriggan berserkers (Depths:5)
  5 very ugly things
  A sun demon (D:8)
  9 iron trolls
  14 centaur warriors
  5 catoblepae
  2 shadow wraiths
  3 skeletal warriors (D:15)
  18 deep elf knights
  A deep troll (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  A shadow demon (Depths:3)
  4 spriggan druids
  3 large abominations (Depths:2)
  19 orb spiders
  A ball lightning (Swamp:5)
  An infernal demonspawn (Depths:5)
  8 deep elf summoners
  A flayed ghost (Vaults:2)
  5 unseen horrors
  A gelid demonspawn (Depths:5)
  14 hell knights
  An ice devil (Orc:4)
  A lindwurm (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  7 hill giants
  6 necromancers
  3 swamp dragons
  A giant orange brain (Vaults:2)
  46 deep trolls
  19 ironbrand convokers
  A torturous demonspawn (Depths:5)
  A harpy (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  10 deep elf conjurers
  A hellion (Elf:3)
  10 cyclopes
  5 harpies
  A wolf spider (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  A draconian (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  9 shining eyes
  40 wolf spiders
  6 griffons
  20 orc knights
  6 red wasps
  4 phantasmal warriors
  4 manticores
  6 elephants
  A manticore (shapeshifter) (Depths:4)
  5 orc sorcerers
  2 sixfirhies
  A shining eye (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  2 black mambas
  2 fauns (shapeshifter)
  15 wizards
  3 eyes of devastation
  A fire giant skeleton (Vaults:3)
  37 moths of wrath
  A black mamba (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  18 spiny frogs
  18 vault sentinels
  An octopode (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  3 orange demons
  2 gargoyles
  An efreet (D:12)
  Psyche (D:10)
  An item mimic (D:15)
  A queen ant (Lair:3)
  2 fire drakes
  3 fire drakes (shapeshifter)
  2 kobold demonologists
  11 trolls
  59 yaktaurs
  9 deep elf priests
  An elf (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  34 jumping spiders
  6 hellwings
  4 giant fireflies
  A queen bee (Lair:2)
  11 komodo dragons
  A yaktaur (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  2 giant fireflies (shapeshifter)
  12 demonic crawlers
  An iron devil (Depths:5)
  2 merfolk (shapeshifter)
  A hydra zombie (D:13)
  6 giant leeches
  27 two-headed ogres
  6 polar bears
  Sonja (D:11)
  A boggart (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  2 red devils
  A silent spectre (Vaults:2)
  A queen bee (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  12 freezing wraiths
  3 fire vortices
  A troll (shapeshifter) (Elf:3)
  3 blue devils
  A blink frog (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  13 ravens
  86 slime creatures
  16 boggarts
  8 bog bodies
  29 deep elf magi
  18 blink frogs
  A deep troll zombie (Depths:5)
  23 tarantellas
  A raiju (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
  6 boulder beetles
  34 brown oozes
  9 grizzly bears (Lair:8)
  A vampire (Vaults:2)
  9 air elementals
  A flying skull (Vaults:2)
  4 thorn lotuses
  A fire dragon skeleton (D:13)
  4 spriggans
  A grizzly bear (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  3 wraiths
  46 yaks
  A ynoxinul (Depths:3)
  An orc simulacrum (Vaults:2)
  A human (D:7)
  54 redbacks
  7 basilisks
  29 trapdoor spiders
  A trapdoor spider (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  An elephant slug (Lair:8)
  A hill giant zombie (D:10)
  9 chaos spawn
  5 sharks
  Eustachio (D:8)
  5 fire elementals (Elf:2)
  3 wyverns
  27 deep elf fighters
  A hog (D:14)
  Grum (D:10)
  18 golden eyes
  6 swamp worm simulacra (Swamp:5)
  54 ugly things
  A yaktaur simulacrum (Vaults:1)
  3 shadows
  21 vampire mosquitoes
  A hill giant skeleton (D:12)
  A hog (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1)
  10 hippogriffs
  4 hungry ghosts
  4 steam dragons
  Menkaure (D:6)
  14 wargs
  A soldier ant (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
  19 swamp worms
  32 wolves
  4 neqoxecs
  An orange crystal statue (Vaults:4)
  5 hell hounds
  A naga (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  8 swamp drakes
  14 hydra simulacra (Swamp:5)
  4 porcupines
  6 soldier ants
  18 water moccasins
  6 mottled dragons
  2 ogre skeletons
  28 spiders
  Purgy (Sewer)
  3 sky beasts
  6 small abominations
  A manticore zombie (D:12)
  80 orc warriors
  10 black bears
  11 ice beasts
  79 ogres
  6 giant goldfish
  23 crocodiles
  3 phantoms
  A human skeleton (Vaults:3)
  A manticore skeleton (D:14)
  A boring beetle (Lair:8)
  3 big kobolds
  5 yellow wasps
  A gnoll sergeant (D:6)
  26 centaurs
  A lost soul (Elf:3)
  A boring beetle (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
  A brain worm (Lair:4)
  9 giant slugs
  2 yaktaur zombies (Depths:5)
  A giant slug zombie (D:15)
  26 giant frogs
  7 insubstantial wisps (Swamp:3)
  A wyvern skeleton (D:14)
  A warg zombie (Depths:3)
  2 cyclops skeletons
  8 eyes of draining
  10 scorpions
  2 scorpions (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  A hippogriff zombie (D:10)
  A pulsating lump (Slime:5)
  31 killer bees
  19 wights
  8 crimson imps
  A troll skeleton (D:9)
  4 electric eels
  9 goliath beetles
  44 orc priests
  17 hounds
  3 human zombies
  7 big fish
  9 iguanas
  A giant frog zombie (D:10)
  2 centaur zombies (Ossuary)
  41 orc wizards
  Crazy Yiuf (D:7)
  An elf zombie (D:12)
  3 centaur skeletons
  2 giant frog skeletons
  18 jellies
  3 gnoll shamans
  2 elf skeletons
  5 iron imps (Depths:5)
  20 sheep
  16 worker ants
  Ijyb (D:2)
  A big kobold skeleton (D:10)
  6 mummies
  58 gnolls
  92 green rats
  28 adders
  8 shadow imps
  A big kobold simulacrum (D:10)
  A giant mite (D:6)
  4 white imps (D:10)
  8 worms
  A swamp drake simulacrum (Swamp:5)
  3 ufetubi (D:10)
  A worm (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  30 giant eyeballs
  13 oozes
  259 orcs
  3 ball pythons (Sewer)
  8 giant cockroaches
  3 gnoll zombies (Ossuary)
  8 goblins
  17 hobgoblins
  39 jackals
  13 quokkas
  23 bats
  4 giant geckos
  12 giant newts
  A giant newt skeleton (D:4)
  3 giant spores
  A hobgoblin zombie (D:8)
  25 kobolds
  A kobold skeleton (D:6)
  An orc skeleton (D:9)
  4 orc zombies
  A quokka skeleton (D:6)
  23 rats
  A spectral orc (D:9)
  14 ballistomycetes
  5 briar patches (Swamp:5)
  5 crawling corpses (Elf:3)
  6 fungi
  6 plants
3385 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  An orb of fire (Zot:5)
  A Killer Klown (Zot:5)
  A draconian monk (Zot:4)
  2 vault wardens (Vaults:4)
  2 deep elf annihilators (Elf:3)
  A black draconian (Zot:4)
  A yaktaur captain (Depths:4)
  A spectral elf (Elf:3)
  A deep elf knight (Elf:2)
  2 orc knights
  A yaktaur (Vaults:4)
  A slime creature (Vaults:2)
  A golden eye (Slime:3)
  A hydra simulacrum (Swamp:5)
  An ogre (Vaults:2)
  An orc warrior (Elf:1)
  A jelly (Slime:1)
  An orc wizard (Vaults:5)
  A swamp drake simulacrum (Swamp:5)
  2 crawling corpses (Elf:3)
24 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A yaktaur captain (Depths:5)
  A death cob (Zot:1)
  A hydra (Swamp:5)
  A spriggan druid (Swamp:5)
  A spiny frog (Swamp:5)
  A vapour (Swamp:5)
  A demonic crawler (Spider:4)
  271 fire vortices
  3 humans (D:14)
  A swamp worm (Swamp:5)
  A giant spore (D:9)
  A rat (D:4)
  8 bushes (Depths:4)
  15 fungi (Lair:8)
  22 plants
329 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 3738 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Ness, the Deep Elf Fire Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
   197 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 0/8
   201 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Flame
   733 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 12/19 MP: 2/11
   961 | D:2      | Reached skill level 4 in Fire Magic
   990 | D:2      | Noticed Ijyb
  1030 | D:2      | Killed Ijyb
  1030 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 10/15
  1091 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  1425 | D:2      | Learned a level 4 spell: Sticky Flame
  1539 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  1557 | D:2      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  1785 | D:3      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  1855 | D:3      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  1858 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 29/29 MP: 18/18
  1863 | D:3      | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
  1904 | D:3      | Found a glowing drain.
  2137 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  2160 | Sewer    | Noticed Purgy
  2168 | Sewer    | Killed Purgy
  2168 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  2201 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 6. HP: 29/34 MP: 21/21
  2511 | D:3      | Acquired Vehumet's first power
  2511 | D:3      | Offered knowledge of Sting by Vehumet.
  2524 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
  2584 | D:3      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  2584 | D:3      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  2708 | D:4      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
  2718 | D:4      | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball
  3021 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 33/39 MP: 9/23
  3164 | D:4      | Offered knowledge of Searing Ray by Vehumet.
  3211 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
  3250 | D:4      | Found Fiahepro's Magic Scroll Shoppe.
  3253 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon I for 45 gold pieces
  3253 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of identify for 26 gold pieces
  3253 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of identify for 26 gold pieces
  3559 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3559 | D:5      | Found Wagiaph's Assorted Antiques.
  3577 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  3715 | D:5      | Offered knowledge of Throw Frost by Vehumet.
  3728 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3855 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 45/45 MP: 25/25
  3941 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
  4036 | D:5      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  4171 | D:6      | Acquired Vehumet's second power
  4330 | D:6      | Noticed Menkaure
  4334 | D:6      | Killed Menkaure
  4375 | D:6      | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
  4441 | D:6      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  4495 | D:6      | Offered knowledge of Iskenderun's Mystic Blast by Vehumet.
  4852 | D:6      | Acquired Vehumet's third power
  4855 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 51/51 MP: 11/29
  5029 | D:6      | Learned a level 4 spell: Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
  5036 | D:6      | Learned a level 6 spell: Haste
  5048 | D:6      | Offered knowledge of Lightning Bolt by Vehumet.
  5126 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  5399 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
  5401 | D:6      | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Magma by Vehumet.
  5763 | D:7      | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
  5803 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
  5889 | D:7      | Got a crude robe
  5895 | D:7      | Identified the +4 robe "Celo" {Dex+3 SInv Stlth+} (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)
  5919 | D:7      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  6075 | D:7      | Found a sand-covered staircase.
  6082 | Ossuary  | Entered an ossuary
  6707 | D:7      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  6713 | D:7      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  6948 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/56 MP: 31/31
  7364 | D:8      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  7396 | D:8      | Offered knowledge of Iskenderun's Battlesphere by Vehumet.
  7402 | D:8      | Noticed Eustachio
  7413 | D:8      | Killed Eustachio
  7413 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
  7767 | D:8      | Got a pair of transparent boots
  7770 | D:8      | Identified the cursed -3 pair of boots "Emoesto" {rF+ Dam-2} (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)
  8542 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  9065 | D:9      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  9225 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  9238 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  9250 | Lair:1   | Noticed Gastronok
  9464 | Lair:1   | Killed Gastronok
  9464 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
  9464 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 44/62 MP: 17/32
 10035 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting
 10069 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
 10143 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
 10147 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Fire Magic
 10273 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 10668 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 10890 | D:10     | Noticed Grum
 10898 | D:10     | Killed Grum
 10996 | D:10     | Noticed Psyche
 11012 | D:10     | Killed Psyche
 11090 | D:10     | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 11173 | D:10     | Offered knowledge of Orb of Destruction by Vehumet.
 11597 | D:10     | Learned a level 7 spell: Orb of Destruction
 11735 | D:10     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 68/68 MP: 34/34
 11866 | D:11     | Noticed Sonja
 11874 | D:11     | Killed Sonja
 12252 | D:11     | Noticed Urug
 12262 | D:11     | Killed Urug
 12723 | D:12     | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting
 13266 | D:12     | Noticed a yaktaur captain
 13404 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 13468 | D:12     | Offered knowledge of Conjure Ball Lightning by Vehumet.
 13981 | D:12     | Noticed a deep troll earth mage
 14034 | D:12     | Killed a deep troll earth mage
 14034 | D:12     | Reached XP level 13. HP: 31/74 MP: 36/36
 14247 | D:12     | Killed a yaktaur captain
 15258 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 15567 | Orc:2    | Noticed Erica
 15572 | Orc:2    | Killed Erica
 15584 | Orc:2    | Offered knowledge of Delayed Fireball by Vehumet.
 15595 | Orc:2    | Learned a level 7 spell: Delayed Fireball
 15609 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 15680 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 13 in Spellcasting
 15809 | Orc:2    | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 16315 | Orc:1    | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Cold by Vehumet.
 16896 | Orc:3    | Found Thuepn's Antique Armour Emporium.
 17091 | Orc:3    | Bought a pair of gloves for 99 gold pieces
 17091 | Orc:3    | Bought a pair of boots for 99 gold pieces
 18412 | Lair:3   | Got a fine dagger
 18413 | Lair:3   | Identified the +3,+5 dagger "Lirizom" {venom, +Fly rElec MR+} (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
 18688 | Lair:3   | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Fire by Vehumet.
 19499 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 6 spell: Bolt of Fire
 19818 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 20311 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 20895 | Lair:4   | Got a fine ring mail
 20911 | Lair:4   | Identified the +3 ring mail of Hackazav {rC+ Int+4} (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 21063 | Lair:4   | Offered knowledge of Shatter by Vehumet.
 21063 | Lair:4   | Offered knowledge of Chain Lightning by Vehumet.
 21063 | Lair:4   | Offered knowledge of Tornado by Vehumet.
 21143 | Lair:4   | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 21260 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 21263 | Lair:5   | Noticed Harold
 21265 | Lair:5   | Killed Harold
 21265 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 14 in Spellcasting
 21265 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 80/80 MP: 11/38
 21417 | Lair:5   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 21461 | Lair:5   | Noticed Snorg
 21465 | Lair:5   | Killed Snorg
 23363 | D:13     | Got a transparent falchion
 23364 | D:13     | Identified the +7,+8 falchion of the Abyss {flame, MR+ Str+4} (You took it off an orc on level 13 of the Dungeon)
 24126 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Charms
 24591 | D:14     | Noticed Kirke
 24592 | D:14     | Killed Kirke
 24921 | D:14     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 25466 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 25768 | D:15     | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
 26382 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 26394 | D:15     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 86/86 MP: 39/39
 27633 | Lair:7   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 27634 | Lair:7   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 27660 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 29160 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 31991 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 32608 | Orc:4    | Noticed Fannar
 32609 | Orc:4    | Killed Fannar
 32618 | Orc:4    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 33615 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 16 in Spellcasting
 33628 | Orc:4    | Found Kacug's Assorted Antiques.
 33629 | Orc:4    | Found Areekaw's Distillery.
 33629 | Orc:4    | Found Yvitoibi's Assorted Antiques.
 33630 | Orc:4    | Found Pacino's Jewellery Emporium.
 33648 | Orc:4    | Bought a paperback book for 420 gold pieces
 33648 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of amnesia for 98 gold pieces
 34035 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 34533 | Swamp:1  | Reached XP level 16. HP: 93/93 MP: 35/40
 36376 | Swamp:3  | Noticed a tentacled monstrosity
 36380 | Swamp:3  | Killed a tentacled monstrosity
 37282 | Swamp:4  | Noticed Donald
 37286 | Swamp:4  | Killed Donald
 37545 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 7 spell: Ring of Flames
 37767 | Swamp:4  | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 39018 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 39361 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Fire Magic
 39757 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 17 in Spellcasting
 40547 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 15 in Conjurations
 41225 | Spider:2 | Reached XP level 17. HP: 99/99 MP: 16/41
 44391 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths
 44406 | Depths:1 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
 44411 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to Hell.
 44424 | Depths:1 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
 44610 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
 44888 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 18 in Spellcasting
 44952 | Depths:1 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
 45349 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
 45362 | Depths:1 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
 46938 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 18. HP: 92/106 MP: 31/43
 49188 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 19 in Spellcasting
 49192 | Depths:3 | Noticed Saint Roka
 49419 | Depths:3 | Killed Saint Roka
 49790 | Depths:3 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
 50872 | Depths:3 | Got a bloodstained ring mail
 50881 | Depths:3 | Identified the +0 ring mail of Syiwum {Dam+3 SInv} (You found it on level 3 of the Depths)
 50946 | Depths:3 | Got a steaming hand axe
 50947 | Depths:3 | Identified the +4,+2 hand axe of Vuty {pain, SInv} (You found it on level 3 of the Depths)
 51049 | Depths:4 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
 51051 | Depths:4 | Noticed a golden dragon
 51487 | D:5      | Bought a scroll labeled CLOLID BEILYURPH for 31 gold pieces
 51489 | D:5      | Bought a fuming brown potion for 27 gold pieces
 51491 | D:5      | Gained mutation: You can translocate small distances at will. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 51950 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 9 spell: Fire Storm
 52332 | Spider:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Spider Nest
 52332 | Spider:5 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 112/112 MP: 42/44
 52985 | Spider:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 54078 | Spider:5 | Got a gossamer rune of Zot
 54462 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 1 spell: Summon Small Mammal
 54723 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 55597 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings
 55603 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 20 in Spellcasting
 56790 | Vaults:1 | Found Naowacw's Armour Boutique.
 58646 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 20. HP: 118/118 MP: 45/45
 58758 | Vaults:2 | Noticed Asterion
 58765 | Vaults:2 | Killed Asterion
 58899 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 59277 | Vaults:2 | Got a heavily runed ring mail
 59291 | Vaults:2 | Identified the +3 ring mail "Dyowky" {rC+ Dam+4 SInv} (You found it on level 2 of the Vaults)
 59976 | Orc:4    | Bought a dazzling leather armour for 245 gold pieces
 59983 | Orc:4    | Identified the +1 leather armour of Jyd Sakk {+Fly Acc+5} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
 60059 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 60172 | Elf:1    | Got a steaming leather armour
 60224 | Elf:1    | Identified the +2 leather armour "Cruiczed" {Dex+1 Int-4} (You found it on level 1 of the Elven Halls)
 60796 | Elf:1    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 60959 | Elf:2    | Noticed Frances
 60962 | Elf:2    | Killed Frances
 61519 | Elf:2    | Noticed Azrael
 61523 | Elf:2    | Killed Azrael
 62957 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 21 in Spellcasting
 63706 | Vaults:3 | Gained mutation: You have a slow metabolism. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 64229 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 64882 | Vaults:3 | Found a staircase to the Hall of Blades.
 64929 | Vaults:3 | Got a crystal scimitar
 64942 | Vaults:3 | Identified the +7,+10 scimitar "Xosamim" {holy, rElec rF+} (You found it on level 3 of the Vaults)
 65147 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Summonings
 65504 | Vaults:3 | Found Qumuant's Weapon Boutique.
 66183 | Vaults:4 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 124/124 MP: 43/46
 66733 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
 69511 | Swamp:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Swamp
 71128 | Swamp:5  | Got a decaying rune of Zot
 71905 | Elf:3    | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls
 72407 | Elf:3    | Noticed Rupert
 72410 | Elf:3    | Killed Rupert
 72413 | Elf:3    | Reached skill level 22 in Spellcasting
 72416 | Elf:3    | Reached XP level 22. HP: 130/130 MP: 31/47
 72954 | Elf:3    | Got a warped dagger
 73241 | Elf:3    | Found Kumam's Assorted Antiques.
 73490 | Elf:3    | Identified Vuogo's Volume of Earthen Black Rituals
 73492 | Elf:3    | Identified Jodesuf's Grimoire of Stolen Souls
 73538 | Elf:3    | Got a pair of transparent gloves
 73582 | Elf:3    | Identified the +2 pair of gloves of the Gloaming {Str+2 Dex+5} (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 73626 | Elf:3    | Identified the +9,+2 dagger of Valiance {vamp, rElec} (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 73643 | Elf:3    | Got a dazzling bow
 73644 | Elf:3    | Identified the cursed +0,-2 bow of Unpleasantness {venom, +Inv} (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 73653 | Elf:3    | Got a slimy long sword
 73654 | Elf:3    | Identified the +6,+6 long sword "Ezenomp" {freeze, rF+ rN+} (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 73666 | Elf:3    | Got a jewelled longbow
 73667 | Elf:3    | Identified the +5,+6 longbow of Shide {speed, rF+ rN+} (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 74785 | Slime:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Pits of Slime
 77156 | Slime:1  | Gained mutation: Your vision is a little blurry. [a shining eye]
 78850 | Slime:6  | Entered Level 6 of the Pits of Slime
 79199 | Slime:6  | Noticed the royal jelly
 79217 | Slime:6  | Killed the royal jelly
 79648 | Slime:6  | Reached XP level 23. HP: 136/136 MP: 17/47
 80455 | Slime:6  | Got a slimy rune of Zot
 80459 | Slime:6  | Got a faintly glowing scale mail
 80467 | Slime:6  | Identified Sif Muna's Catalogue of the Escort
 80599 | Slime:6  | Identified the cursed -1 scale mail of Fun and Games {Str+3 Dam+4} (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)
 81673 | Depths:4 | Noticed Frederick
 81676 | Depths:4 | Killed Frederick
 81676 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 23 in Spellcasting
 82142 | Depths:4 | Noticed a bone dragon
 82188 | Depths:4 | Killed a bone dragon
 82449 | Depths:4 | Gained mutation: You need consume almost no food. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 82918 | Depths:4 | Noticed a golden dragon
 82923 | Depths:4 | Killed a golden dragon
 82923 | Depths:4 | Killed a golden dragon
 83730 | Depths:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Depths
 84193 | Depths:5 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
 85297 | Depths:5 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot.
 86083 | Lair:1   | Got a warped falchion
 86094 | Lair:1   | Identified the +5,+8 falchion "Zawaroupho" {flame, Str+1 SInv} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 86453 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults
 86455 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 144/144 MP: 48/48
 86456 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Summonings
 86478 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 24 in Spellcasting
 87146 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich
 87300 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich
 87846 | Vaults:5 | Got a jewelled dire flail
 89114 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot
 89123 | Vaults:5 | Identified Lebbiuck's Disquisition on Aid (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)
 89330 | Vaults:5 | Got a steaming diamond amulet
 89556 | Vaults:5 | Identified Lenwueloj's Almanac of the Oath
 89679 | Vaults:5 | Identified the amulet of the Sturgeon {rMut rC+} (You took it off an ironbrand convoker on level 5 of the Vaults)
 89789 | Vaults:5 | Found Skoucos' Antique Weapon Shoppe.
 90376 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 6 spell: Aura of Abjuration
 90395 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 6 spell: Deflect Missiles
 90821 | Zot:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Realm of Zot
 90984 | Zot:1    | Reached XP level 25. HP: 141/150 MP: 23/49
 91080 | Zot:1    | You fall through a shaft!
 91379 | Zot:1    | Noticed an orb of fire
 91398 | Zot:1    | Gained mutation: You are dopey. (Int -2) [an orb of fire]
 91646 | Zot:1    | Killed an orb of fire
 91651 | Zot:1    | Reached skill level 25 in Spellcasting
 94724 | Zot:3    | Identified the Catalogue of Weightlessness
 95808 | Zot:4    | Reached XP level 26. HP: 157/157 MP: 46/50
 96555 | Zot:4    | Reached skill level 26 in Spellcasting
 97931 | Zot:5    | Entered Level 5 of the Realm of Zot
 99603 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
 99604 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
 99752 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
 99810 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
 99811 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
100298 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
100329 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
100769 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
100773 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
100942 | Zot:5    | Reached XP level 27. HP: 164/164 MP: 25/50
101291 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
101294 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
101294 | Zot:5    | Reached skill level 27 in Spellcasting
101703 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
101914 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
101920 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
102028 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
102200 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
102213 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
102928 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
102930 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
103365 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness
103451 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 1 spell: Apportation
103455 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 3 spell: Passwall
103459 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration
103463 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 3 spell: Flight
103466 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 2 spell: Sublimation of Blood
103471 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 4 spell: Passage of Golubria
104339 | Zot:5    | Got the Orb of Zot
104991 | D:1      | Noticed Kluowked the pandemonium lord
105035 | D:$      | Escaped with the Orb!
             


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Short sword       |     9 |       |    41 |     5 |       |       |       |       |       ||    55
       Staff             |       |       |       |    37 |    23 |     1 |       |    19 |     8 ||    88
       Dagger            |       |       |       |       |    12 |     2 |     5 |       |       ||    19
 Cast: Flame Tongue      |    58 |    76 |    93 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||   227
       Throw Flame       |     7 |    68 |   259 |   447 |   161 |       |       |       |       ||   942
       Conjure Flame     |       |     4 |     7 |     7 |     6 |     3 |       |       |       ||    27
       Sticky Flame      |       |     2 |     5 |    26 |    69 |    23 |     1 |       |       ||   126
       Fireball          |       |       |    18 |    80 |   158 |    61 |    18 |       |       ||   335
       Iskenderun's Myst |       |       |     6 |    61 |   261 |   251 |    58 |    69 |    62 ||   768
       Repel Missiles    |       |       |       |     2 |     1 |     1 |     1 |     2 |     2 ||     9
       Orb of Destructio |       |       |       |    11 |    29 |    63 |    12 |    29 |   132 ||   276
       Bolt of Fire      |       |       |       |       |   459 |   414 |   537 |   538 |   255 ||  2203
       Delayed Fireball  |       |       |       |       |    11 |    16 |     2 |     4 |     4 ||    37
       Haste             |       |       |       |       |     1 |     2 |     4 |    15 |    11 ||    33
       Ring of Flames    |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |    17 |    19 |    49 ||    89
       Fire Storm        |       |       |       |       |       |       |   104 |    72 |    64 ||   240
       Deflect Missiles  |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     5 ||     6
       Aura of Abjuratio |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     2 ||     3
       Apportation       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    39 ||    39
       Swiftness         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
       Passage of Golubr |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
 Abil: Release Delayed F |       |       |       |       |    10 |    16 |     2 |     4 |     4 ||    36
       Evoke Flight      |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       |       ||     2
       Evoke Teleport Co |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     5 |       ||     5
       Blink             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |     2 |     2 |     5 |     4 |     3 |       |     5 |       ||    21
  Use: Scroll            |       |     5 |    12 |    13 |    23 |     9 |     1 |    13 |     5 ||    81
       Potion            |       |       |       |     1 |       |     4 |     1 |     5 |    14 ||    25

Like that?

Needless to say, advice on this character is a bit moot. But I was somewhat trying to be vague. I have gotten 3 runes multiple times without rMut, and I'm never sure where to go. So was more looking for general suggestions on what to do. Because I am very hesitant to ever go up against OoFs without finding some form of resistance(or a substantial cache of curmutpots.

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Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 19th April 2014, 00:35

Re: Mutationless Branches

Great, thanks! And congrats on the win!

For the record, I think this character would've done fine in extended. Hell, with thief cloak, you weren't even going to be desperate for some way to protect against torment, as you could just bury yourself in a cloud whenever you needed.

But that said, whenever you find yourself without rMut after 3 runes, there are still some things to do. If you can safely leave your god, you can go Zin, who will protect you from mutations, or Jiyva, who will let you cure bad mutations. If you can learn necromutation, it will also give you undead-style rot instead of mutations. If those don't work, you can try to find evocable tele and ctele (or the ctele spell) and just minimize the amount of time you're around mutators by jetting across the level. And if absolutely none of these options are open to you and you have 1 or no cure mut pots, then say "screw it" and win with however many runes you feel like you can safely grab. Other, better players may have further advice or some things I've missed.

Despite what I said up thread, if you're looking to do 15 runes right, it's pretty easy to put together the ideal circumstances for such a character. "Casters" can worship Sif or Kiku, both of whom are excellent gods for extended, and learn necromutation or the ddoor/borgs combo. "Melee" and "ranged" bros can select Zin or TSO right from the Temple, or try to execute the switch from Oka (which is significantly more dangerous in 0.14, beware!). And right now, "stabber" playstyles have an excellent friend in Dith, who will make you stealthy enough that you can do some pretty incredible ninja'ing.

Hope that helps, and good luck next time!

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 19th April 2014, 09:19

Re: Mutationless Branches

Magipi wrote:You made a mistake, this is not CYC.

I can not, I even doesn't know what is CYC.
English is NOT my native language.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 19th April 2014, 11:01

Re: Mutationless Branches

GlassGo wrote:
Magipi wrote:You made a mistake, this is not CYC.

I can not, I even doesn't know what is CYC.

Crazy Yuif's Corner is a sub forum that deals with off topic threads.

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Post Saturday, 19th April 2014, 11:12

Re: Mutationless Branches

Hopeless wrote:Crazy Yuif's Corner is a sub forum that deals with off topic threads.

Then this statment also belong to CYC?

Magipi wrote:If you have never won before, I think this is not a good idea. Win this game, and try something fancy later. But it's your game, of course.

I'm sure you will be just in judgments.

Lyrick wrote:YASD bait

Oh, and this one.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 13:53

Re: Mutationless Branches

Well Glass, your advice wasn't relevant to the thread. People aren't being hostile toward you and your 15 rune beliefs, but you can't just hop into advice threads and say "Do 15 runes!"

So the CYC comments were totally on point. Don't take it so personally.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 18:57

Re: Mutationless Branches

I never take such thing personally, unless I see it directed personally.
So, explane to me difference between this
Magipi wrote:If you have never won before, I think this is not a good idea. Win this game, and try something fancy later. But it's your game, of course.

and this
GlassGo wrote:I think, it doesn't matter, did you win before, or not. Go for these shiny 15 beckoning runes! That's the win!
As for me, it's look like this advise is not worse than that.

Btw, the word "beliefs" has obvious negative connotation like a "fanatical beliefs", "doxy", like something, as something that is not supported by logic and reason.
Please refrain in the future from expressing such obviously illogical and personal things. It's not good for real discussion, good only for bazaar squabbling.
English is NOT my native language.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 19:28

Re: Mutationless Branches

Heh, well I was trying to be funny calling the 15 rune thing your 'beliefs'. Which never seems to work on the internet, but for some reason I keep trying.

I guess you're right that giving the advice "Don't go for 5 runes" is equally off topic when the OP says "I'm going to go for more runes".

It's sort of like going into a mummy advice thread and saying "Don't play mummy". Which is great advice for winning, but terrible advice for winning a mummy.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 19:58

Re: Mutationless Branches

You should take to account, that I'm not native English speaker, I really don't get most jokes\funny things. )

Yeah, I totally agree that Mu is worst race to play, but, if someone create a topic like "Best background for Mu of Chei", who I am to say this? :lol: In the end, I've played a mummy a lot at one time, and if someone wan to play Mu, and he is able to get fun from it - welcome!
Last edited by GlassGo on Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 20:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 20:05

Re: Mutationless Branches

It is actively cruel to advise anyone who has not yet won the game to go for 15 runes on a breakout character that could net their first ascension. Even if you don't intend for it to be cruel, either such advice will (hopefully) be ignored, or else if followed almost certainly (greater than 95% probability surely) cause a major unnecessary heartbreak for the poor fool who listened to you.

This has nothing to do with people's personal preference and whether one likes going for 15 runes and pan and hells and the like.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 20:14

Re: Mutationless Branches

I didn't think, that a "win with 3 rines" so valuable, or valuable at all, to be honest and pardon my french.
That's why I did not even think about it, when for the first time my char cleared al 27 floors.
I went to Hell, then Cocytus, then died. So what - did I get suicidal tendencies because of this?
No.
Did my pets died? No. Did something terrible happened at all? No.

Of course, if you alredy have 15 rune win - then this idea is not so attractive, because Panda and Abyss are really boring mostly, at least so was in my case, becouse my char was too owerpowered.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 20:33

Re: Mutationless Branches

GlassGo wrote:I didn't think, that a "win with 3 rines" so valuable, or valuable at all, to be honest and pardon my french.
That's why I did not even think about it, when for the first time my char cleared al 27 floors.


Ok, I get that. But most of the time when people have their first shot at ascension, they want to ascend—but they are also attached to their character and maybe want to "poke around" in extended. In general when I see phrases like "poke around" used in this context, I'm going to be strongly inclined to say, "Just go for the win," because even a "poke" into Pandemonium could strand you there for a while, or you get placed on Hellion Island on your second floor, or run into a particularly nasty pan lord. Etc. A lot of the optional places in the game (plus abyss, which isn't always optional as you can get forced to go there I suppose) have threats that are so different from the parts of the game that you usually complete in a 3-rune win, that there is a good chance you'll die the first time you try to go for more runes than three. (Zot is extremely dangerous too, of course, but you *have* to do it at some point.)

There is stuff in these optional areas that doesn't even pretend to be fair, like pan lords that just happen to spawn with paralyze spell or summon eyeballs or distortion-branded melee attack, without any warning at all. Then there are Hell effects. Plus the BS that can happen in the abyss, like getting randomly sucked into a new area right next to a silent specter or something and some nasty stuff. That level of unfairness happening and killing your character is very unlikely, but not impossible.

If you die to something like that on a likely-to-win character because you decided to go for more runes, when you haven't gotten first ascension, it could really just make you hate the game. The first time I died a truly BS death in extended I had already won before, and it still made me hate the game a bit (for a little while, DCSS and I are tight again it's all cool), but if I hadn't won yet.... Yeah, I might have just quit.

So I only feel comfortable encouraging people to go for more runes once they already have at least one "basic" win under the belt. The pressure for first ascension is off, and you don't have to stress so much about a random event (however unlikely) putting you into an inescapably bad situation, because if that happens sure it will suck, but you aren't jeopardizing your first escape with the orb.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 21:18

Re: Mutationless Branches

and into wrote:If you die to something like that on a likely-to-win character because you decided to go for more runes, when you haven't gotten first ascension, it could really just make you hate the game.
The first time I died a truly BS death in extended I had already won before, and it still made me hate the game a bit (for a little while, DCSS and I are tight again it's all cool), but if I hadn't won yet.... Yeah, I might have just quit. So I only feel comfortable encouraging people to go for more runes once they already have at least one "basic" win under the belt. The pressure for first ascension is off, and you don't have to stress so much about a random event (however unlikely) putting you into an inescapably bad situation.

So, as I already said it before - it's smart move in terms of build a community, and the reason for the appearance such terms like "3 rune win" vs "extendet". )))
I think people, that play Crawl are strong in spirit. )) And if they manadge to get at least 3 runes, they can bear\endure all trials.
Actually, I once quit, but I came back because it's best roguelike I ever see, profound and intelligent game.
I quit on the stage where I could not even survive untill Temple. )
English is NOT my native language.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 22:25

Re: Mutationless Branches

you do not need rMut for 15 runes

YOU DO NOT NEED RMUT FOR 15 RUNES

ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU OTHERWISE IS SOMEONE YOU SHOULD NEVER TAKE ADVICE FROM AGAIN, BECAUSE THEY ARE WRONG AND GIVE ADVICE THAT IS BAD AND WRONG

here are things that can mutate you: potions, cards, xom, jiyva, miscasts (hell effects), contamination, neqoxec, cacodemon, shining eye, mnoleg, orb of fire, pulsating lump
let's examine these one by one

potions: the only way you can ever quaff a potion involuntarily is with a xom effect or a potion card. neither of these can EVER result in a mutation. so you don't need rMut to avoid these mutations.
cards: the only way you can ever draw a card involuntarily is if you recently abandoned nemelex. so you don't need rMut to avoid these mutations.
xom: xom will not mutate you unless you are worshipping (or recently abandoned) xom, so you don't need rMut to avoid these mutations. also, rMut has literally no effect at all on these mutations, so y'know, there's that.
jiyva: jiyva will not mutate you unless you are worshipping (or recently abandoned) jiyva, so you don't need rMut to avoid these mutations. also, rMut has literally no effect at all on these mutations. also, jiyva lets you remove bad mutations, so...
miscasts: you can avoid getting mutated by miscast effects by not miscasting spells (and not drawing wild magic cards or abandoning certain gods). so you don't need rMut for that.
(hell effects): it is very rare for these to mutate you, and if they do, it's 1 mutation (in which case, who cares) or contam (see the following) so you don't need rMut for these
contam: you can avoid getting mutations from contam by avoiding yellow contam. casting haste on its own will never give you yellow contam, so this is extremely easy. sometimes hell effects will give you lots of contam, in which case yes, you will likely get mutated. but this isn't too frequent, it's a small number of mutations, and furthermore, rMut only has a 50% chance of affecting it (so it only blocks 45% of mutations from contam). so this is not exactly a compelling argument for needing rMut, either.
neqoxec: you can avoid getting mutations from neqoxecs by not letting them cast malmutate on you. since neqoxecs cannot cast malmutate on you if they are dead, cannot cast malmutate on you if they are out of LOS, and cannot cast malmutate on you if there is another monster between you and the neqoxec, this is not terribly difficult to do. so you don't need rMut for these either.
cacodemon: see above
shining eye: these are basically nonexistent outside of slime, and can be dealt with the same way as neqoxecs with the addition that they have 1 EV and are SPEED 7, so unless you die to giant slugs a lot, it shouldn't be hard for you to avoid shining eyes, so you don't need rMut for these
mnoleg: mnoleg can only appear once in the game, in a single location, in a huge vault with ample warning, and when you enter the level with mnoleg on it, you are told that you are on the level with mnoleg on it. AND HE ONLY MUTATES YOU IF HE HITS YOU IN MELEE. you don't need rMut for that
orb of fire: these only appear in zot, depths:5, and particularly stupid vaults. you don't need rMut for these, unless you somehow think you need rMut for 3-rune wins...though I guess that's a pretty likely possibility if you already actually think you need it for 15-rune wins.
pulsating lump: it is speed 5 and has to hit you in melee to mutate you. im pretty sure my goldfish could play crawl and not get mutated by pulsating lumps.

conclusion: you dont need rMut

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Post Tuesday, 22nd April 2014, 22:45

Re: Mutationless Branches

So Duvessa to recap for those who tl;dr: Don't use rMUT because it is useless & anyone that tells you otherwise is a liar, thief and general nogoodnik.. Oh and never listen to anyone who gives wrong advice once because they will never learn and never say anything of value again? Is that about it?...

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 00:13

Re: Mutationless Branches

A LOT of advice is based on people with flawless tactics and long streaks giving advice to other people who have long streaks or whom the poster assumes should have long streaks and flawless tactics. Also the advice on orbs of fire is to let them mutate you because you're going to win anyways, which is true for people who are good and don't need that advice. Especially if you're unlucky enough to encounter one on depths:5, when you aren't at all likely to be winning right then and there. I didn't know they could appear on depths:5, by the way.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 00:19

Re: Mutationless Branches

well you shouldn't assume that people are going to purposely play badly, so you should of course give adviced based on the assumption that the player is trying to play well
this includes things like blocking lof and such

giving advice based on the assumption the player is going to purposely play poorly is just dumb

if the player is not yet good enough to play well then advice should be tailored at improving that play, which is precisely what minmay is trying to point out here--he is giving examples of how you prevent getting mutated!

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 00:31

Re: Mutationless Branches

crate wrote:well you shouldn't assume that people are going to purposely play badly, so you should of course give adviced based on the assumption that the player is trying to play well
this includes things like blocking lof and such

giving advice based on the assumption the player is going to purposely play poorly is just dumb

if the player is not yet good enough to play well then advice should be tailored at improving that play, which is precisely what minmay is trying to point out here--he is giving examples of how you prevent getting mutated!


See I read that rant by Duvessa as absolutist bs. Amazing how perspective changes interpretation.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 00:37

Re: Mutationless Branches

Looks like some pretty simple advice that suggests easy ways to get mutated less often to me, nothing ridiculously complex or only comprehensible by Crawl experts with "flawless tactics" (also an excellent demonstration of good advice being not just ignored but actively dismissed on the occasions it shows up). Obviously you're not going to never get mutated at all if you're around, say, lots of neqoxecs with no rMut, but there are many things you can do to make it a lot less likely.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 01:03

Re: Mutationless Branches

duvessa wrote:you do not need rMut for 15 runes
Yeah, you do not need rMut, but it's very desirable to have it.

conclusion: you dont need rMut
Your conclusion is wrong. If you don't need it, why it is exist in game at all?
It's the same, as to say - you don't need a key to open a door, you can just kick it.
Of course you can kick it, but I can't really say that I don't need a key in that case.
Or a water. How long a person can live without water? Lets say it's a week, 7 days.
So, you don't need a water to drink 7 days? Whoa, you are the toughest of all I know.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 01:08

Re: Mutationless Branches

Hopeless wrote:So Duvessa to recap for those who tl;dr: Don't use rMUT because it is useless
rMut is basically useless in most games, yes. It can be convenient sometimes, of course - maybe you are real-time speedrunning slime or pan, and won't notice monsters until they've been on the screen several turns - but circumstances where mutation attempts aren't easily avoidable (particularly the ones that rMut actually works on) are very rare.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 01:11

Re: Mutationless Branches

I wear rmut in pan if I have it (sometimes you move into los of a neqoxec or cacodemon and it gets an action before you get another move, and then it can mutate you), but outside of mnoleg's level it's not a big deal, and of course Jiyva and Zin are both pretty strong gods in pan for other reasons and additionally give you rmut (well ok Jiyva "merely" lets you remove bad muts), and TSO gives you summons for the "other sort" of rmut (blocking LOF).

I would certainly not say it is necessary though, especially if you play well and prevent getting mutations as much as you can, since cure mutation potions do exist and you probably have 2~3 or so at your disposal for cleaning up your character after pan.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 01:19

Re: Mutationless Branches

Blocking line of fire will greatly reduce the amount of chances they get to mutate you, but there are still going to be times where they get a chance to malmutate before you can adjust positions to block line of fire. Monsters appear at a distance when you're melee, or they got summoned to the side of the monster that summoned them (who is still at range). Having ranged attacks reduces this problem greatly, but I like my pure melee characters, and they're perfectly viable with a rMut amulet...

As a side note, I suffered heavily from hell effect contamination on my GrMo run this tournament, picking up multiple mutations that way. I didn't have rMut to have the option of wearing it, and no cure mutation potions spawned all game in "normal" locations. The only cure mutation potions I ever found came from either the holy pan zin altar (and I only got 2, which I think is the minimum there) or a zigg, which I entered explicitly for cure mutation. This is an extreme example and I'm not saying this is normal in any way ;)

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 01:29

Re: Mutationless Branches

GlassGo wrote:If you don't need it, why it is exist in game at all?


=rMut has a use, but it isn't necessary. And it is more useful than =sustenance, anyway, even in 3-runers.

If duvessa's good advice was a bit rant-like, it is only because a lot of sources out there pretend that rF++ and rMut are your "necessary ascension kit" or something. You'll also see rElec thrown in there because of electric golems, and you'll sometimes see rN+ recommended with no particular explanation. Oddly enough a lot of sources that say this don't mention rC even though there are quite a few sources of bad cold damage late game and rC+ will improve your chances of winning much more so than rMut and probably even rElec. (Though of course rElec is nice to have too, but a few !resistance will usually cover you here.)

So in short there's a lot of misinformation and misplaced anxiety about rMut. To a degree it makes sense, I can understand why mutations seem really scary, but for precisely that reason responsible sources of advice should be careful not to exaggerate the threat. You are most likely to experience mutation late in the game and almost all of the worst mutations have countermeasures that are likely available by then (even assuming you don't have !cure mut) and the chance of you getting one of the really bad mutations is fairly low anyway.

@Tasonir: Yes a lot of the Hell effects are silly but glow-induced mutations have much less of a chance to be blocked by rMut anyway. If by "pure melee" you mean "no casting," then 15 runers are completely viable without rMut, too. If you mean "literally only hits stuff with melee, or moves" then that character's viability has been so willfully compromised anyway that discussions of jewelry choice have really become irrelevant.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 01:33

Re: Mutationless Branches

tasonir wrote:Blocking line of fire will greatly reduce the amount of chances they get to mutate you, but there are still going to be times where they get a chance to malmutate before you can adjust positions to block line of fire. Monsters appear at a distance when you're melee, or they got summoned to the side of the monster that summoned them (who is still at range). Having ranged attacks reduces this problem greatly, but I like my pure melee characters, and they're perfectly viable with a rMut amulet...
pure melee characters can move away from monsters and malmutate doesn't work through walls
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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 01:54

Re: Mutationless Branches

To be clear I mostly resented the idea that once a person makes a mistake in giving advice they are irredeemable in some people's eyes. That seems ridiculous. The rant itself is somewhat understandable since it is definitely true that people say things willy nilly without any factual back up. (not necessarily that they are wrong but they don't make their case.)

As far as rMut goes I understood from reading threads here on the forum and various other places (including in-chat Webtiles discussions) that it is a good thing to find. That in fact it is a great thing to find. Not: Without it you can't survive but more with it your survival becomes far likelier. If this isn't true then maybe it should be phased out along side rings of sustenance. Or is this a skill test thing the devs leave in because there will be YASDs based on misinterpreting its value?

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 02:23

Re: Mutationless Branches

and into wrote: =rMut has a use, but it isn't necessary. And it is more useful than =sustenance, anyway, even in 3-runers.
Exactly. for the first time I didn't know how to spend food, and save it. At the end I was left with 60 bread and 40 meat ration. It's useful.

If duvessa's good advice was a bit rant-like, it is only because a lot of sources out there pretend that rF++ and rMut are your "necessary ascension kit" or something. You'll also see rElec thrown in there because of electric golems, and you'll sometimes see rN+ recommended with no particular explanation. Oddly enough a lot of sources that say this don't mention rC even though there are quite a few sources of bad cold damage late game and rC+ will improve your chances of winning much more so than rMut and probably even rElec. (Though of course rElec is nice to have too, but a few !resistance will usually cover you here.)


Lets say that rMut let us to minimize our tactical mistakes, that can lead to devastating damage, like shoutitis on stealth stabber, ot deformed body on armor-user, or BOTH and EVEN MORE in a short time.
As far as I understand Crawl - this type of items, skills, or abilities are very very valuable for Crawl.

So in short there's a lot of misinformation and misplaced anxiety about rMut. To a degree it makes sense, I can understand why mutations seem really scary, but for precisely that reason responsible sources of advice should be careful not to exaggerate the threat. You are most likely to experience mutation late in the game and almost all of the worst mutations have countermeasures that are likely available by then (even assuming you don't have !cure mut) and the chance of you getting one of the really bad mutations is fairly low anyway.
Mutation and Silence - the only two things that can scare me.
!cureMut is mostly useless for me, becouse I love good mutation, and if I already got a good mutations set, I don't want to lose it.
All the other threats I can just kill on sight.
  Code:
414089 | Coc:7    | Noticed Antaeus
414114 | Coc:7    | Killed Antaeus

Part of the turns was spent to get back around the corner and wait for him.

duvessa wrote:pure melee characters can move away from monsters and malmutate doesn't work through walls
Not in case of Chei.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 04:51

Re: Mutationless Branches

Woah, this thread I started appears to have deviated significantly from its original intent. And I feel like as the cause I need to bring up a few points from the perspective of...well...me.

Firstly, and I think this is somewhat important. The game has changed a lot since its inception. And the concept of a 3-rune win seems...outdated? I get that 3 is the minimum required, but as time has passed the difficulty between vault and slime has gotten lessened to the point of them being almost the same. And if I were to clear one, I would have no qualms about doing the other. And I don't think it until you have exhausted those first 4 that the difficulty and risk spike dramatically. There also seems to be this concept of a binary dichotomy that there's only 3 and 15 rune choices. And I couldn't disagree more. Ignoring the fact that the first 4 are relatively 'easy' for an XL27 character...even a shitty one; a lot of characters don't have the tools for X or Y endgame area and end up with 11 runes. Or the player dislikes scumming the endless abyss and cuts it at 14. It's not just one or the other.

Secondly, I want to respond to Duvessa specifically regarding her assessment of rMut. And I would like to make a big point of one fact in particular before I begin. You have been here presumably a loooong time. You know the game in and out, backwards and forwards, in ways that most people probably never will. But when a thread like this comes along, and there is a relatively new player(technically been playing on and off for years, but only 1 win to date), you need to take into account that the player is new when giving them advice. In you know X, Y, and Z, you can probably minimize exposure to mutations and thus be able to brave any challenge without relevant resistance. But to someone who is new, they lack that knowledge, and that efficiency, and need suggestions with that in mind. And to that end, I want to provide 2 anecdotes regarding my experience in the game.
1. On the character before this, I was a NaFe. I was feeling pretty confident having blasted my way through this and that without having been in any serious danger for a while. So I decided, given that sources here and there(like you) had claimed that hell was no big deal without rMut(outside of a few specific demons which I was watching carefully for). Well, I went in. Took a couple steps, and lost 10% of my max health almost instantly to a mutation.(I didn't notice at the time, learned this from the log afterwards). I start wandering the floor, looking for a staircase, killing stuff on the way, acting like I had no idea what I was doing against these enemies I had little or no experience against(because I didn't). I see the staircase, and then a bunch of enemies pop out around me, as they had been doing, typical hell stuff. And then I get confused. And I...get confused(IRL), because I had a clarity mutation on me...which should have prevented me from getting confused. So I open up my list of mutations, and much to my surprise I had lost 2 beneficial mutations, and gained a total of 4 negative ones...including 20% hp loss. Keep in mind I had been in hell for only a few hundred turns, and in that time had not been contaminated at all. So I exited hell, tried to finish the game, and died(Zot:3) mostly due to the overall loss of character power brought on by such extensive mutation(I had found literally 0 curemut potions all game). And this is just from the ambient effects of hell, with no contamination and no neqs or cacos, in just the time it takes to clear half a floor of a single branch. Maybe if I was more experienced I could have gone through the area faster. I wouldn't have stopped to fight things and just kept a brisk pace. I may have abused mapping and cTele to rush through. But these are things that I, as a 'new' player wasn't familiar with or utilizing. So in less than a single floor, I got malmutated beyond repair, all of which was(likely) preventable by rMut.

2. Let's go back in time. A long time. My first breakout character, a MiFi of Okawaru. I've got my axe and my finesse, and I'm just cleaving through everything. I've got 3 runes in tow and am clearing Zot at a blistering pace. I feel invincible. First time I hit level 27, I'm like 'i can't get any stronger'(having a gross misunderstanding of how skill levels worked). I have 0 mutations up until this point, haven't even seen anything that can mutate me, and I don't fully understand what a big detriment they can be. And I haven't seen any of these things I'm fighting before. I know OoFs can mutate me but in my mind it's like 'I'm in Zot5, so what?' I run into an OoF, run at him with hasted speed, and cut it down. I see a second, and I repeat the process. And I notice all these changes in my stats. I open up my mutation menu out of curiosity. In those 2 separate encounters with 2 singular OoFs that I killed in short order, I acquired a whopping 12 negative mutations. Which caused me to be so weak that I die in a single hit from the next Greater Lich I saw. Needless to say I was heartbroken by this, and it caused me to not play for over a year out of frustration. Again, maybe if I had had more practice in drawing orbs around corners, if I had known enough to invest in more offensive or mobility options to expose myself less, or had general other better knowledge of the game that I probably still don't possess, then yes maybe I could have dealt with those orbs without being so horribly disfigured. But as a new player, I don't. I can't. And you need to understand that before you start giving advice that is only relevant to those who already know it.

So after having my 2 most promising characters ever...and the only 2 characters I had ever gotten to XL27, die to being horribly malmutated in a relatively short period of time...I was not ready to take that risk again. And I don't understand how a veteran can look at new players and tell them they should just be better and not need it. I've seen people clear the game with an AC of 3 and an EV of 12 because they know how to evade fights. But I wouldn't turn around and tell someone who was new: "nah, you don't need defensive stats, you can just play better." No, new players need that layer of protection to hedge against their inexperience. Which is exactly why most people say that new players should begin starting with 3 runes. Because they're new. They need every advantage they can get so that they can get that experience and can learn to play without them eventually. Unless you're going to argue that you were a master of the game from day 1, never lost a game, and never got a source of mutation resistance...ever. In which case, most people still wouldn't be you.

I can clear Dark Souls up to NG+7 with a SL 1 character using bare fists(takes forever, I wouldn't recommend it). But I didn't start out doing that. I started out using heavy armor, a big shield, grinding for levels, and taking every advantage the game offered me to make it easier. So that I could advance as a player instead of just dying a hundred times in the burg, getting frustrated, and quitting forever.(I apologize to those who don't play Dark Souls and don't understand the reference...but I'm assuming at least some people do and can't think of any more universal examples).



All that being said, still a massive deviation from the point of the topic. Which was where am I 'least likely' to be mutated assuming I'm playing at a low level(in terms of player experience, not character power). Which never truly got answered by anyone. But from what I can infer at this point seems to be: "Places that aren't hell." Does that seem a relatively accurate assessment?

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 07:47

Re: Mutationless Branches

Thank you for brilliant post! Your anecdote #1 is what I want to say, but can not due problem with English. )
Because when I hear, that Hell is "you just don't need rMut, one bMut isn't a problem, then one Contamination more, one less" I want to roar BULLSHIT.
Also I want to present a perfect tool for fucking up Hell - Necromutation. You will never ever get bMut, or loose good one.

And about "3 rune win". I think, that speaking from the point of view of psychology, when you ascended for thefirst time with 3 runes, next time player will be tempted to do it again - because it's a win, isn't it?
So, how he can progresse, when everytime he got 3 runes, he ascended instead of trying to "poke around" Hell/Panda/Abyss/Ziggurat?
On the other hand, of course, if you lose 27-level character, you may be disappointed for long.
Every time I lost my highlevel char, I felt the need to take a brake from Crawl. But after couple of weeks I always returned, becouse it's a great roguelike game.

NessOnett wrote:But from what I can infer at this point seems to be: "Places that aren't hell." Does that seem a relatively accurate assessment?
You can go toZot 1-4, in my game it was Zot 4 where I found rMut, after cleared all Hell's branch.
Last edited by GlassGo on Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 07:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 07:51

Re: Mutationless Branches

GlassGo wrote:how he can progresse, when everytime he got 3 runes

by ascending weaker races and combos
by trying to streak

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 09:23

Re: Mutationless Branches

GlassGo, I think you will find that after you win a few more 15-rune games, you will start to find that part of the game quite boring and trivial once you are familiar with it. My last 15-rune game was in 2012, and my last 15-rune game that wasn't a mummy of Trog was in 2011. Once you learn how to do extended it will feel very similar to how e.g. Zot feels to you now - a victory parade at best, and at worst a tedious slog that challenges your patience rather than your skill.
Of course there will always remain challenge conditions to make extended branches interesting (branchless, for example) but that is also the case for 3-rune games!

Furthermore, while you are free to prefer 15-rune games, barging into 50% of all advice threads and derailing it by telling players their 3-rune wins don't count, when absolutely nobody visibly agrees with you, is kind of an obnoxious thing to do.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 13:50

Re: Mutationless Branches

NessOnett wrote:Firstly, and I think this is somewhat important. The game has changed a lot since its inception. And the concept of a 3-rune win seems...outdated?


3 rune wins are not outdated. 3 runes are needed to win, and many players who have won a large number of games believe that the most fun is to be had in the earlier stages of the game, making the ideal win the one that spends the least time in the late game -- e.g. a 3 rune win. One reason for this is that characters get sufficiently powerful and same-y that past a certain point the game is just a time sink and not a meaningful or interesting challenge. Another reason is that the most development effort has gone into the parts of the game that the most players experience -- the early and mid game.

You're welcome to get as many runes as you like if you enjoy the late game, but acknowledge that there are a number of skilled players who feel differently.

NessOnett wrote:On the character before this, I was a NaFe. I was feeling pretty confident . . .So in less than a single floor, I got malmutated beyond repair, all of which was(likely) preventable by rMut.


That's unfortunate in both the colloquial and literal sense. Getting mutated by a Hell effect is not particularly common, to the extent that I rarely have it happen to me even once over all four Hells. Someone else no doubt has a similar story of wearing an amulet of resist mutation and still having every malmutate attack on them succeed, because that's about equally likely.

NessOnett wrote: Let's go back in time. A long time. My first breakout character, a MiFi of Okawaru. . . . In those 2 separate encounters with 2 singular OoFs that I killed in short order, I acquired a whopping 12 negative mutations. Which caused me to be so weak that I die in a single hit from the next Greater Lich I saw.


There is no set of negative mutations that would allow a MiFi who has no trouble against two orbs of fire to get one-hit-killed by an ancient lich. The most it can possibly do is 144 damage, which is very unlikely, and as a high-level minotaur, you'd have more hp than that even with hp -30%.

Would 12 negative mutations have made things worse for you? Yes, obviously. On the other hand, you also make it clear that you aren't even reading messages to find out what the orb of fire (a new monster) is doing. If you had, you would have noticed immediately that it's mutating you. After that, you would (should anyway) have adapted to that new information.

Last and not least, characters die in crawl. They die particularly often when the player gets overconfident, starts holding down tab, and ignores their message window. Players are supposed to learn from this that they should avoid overconfidence, avoid reckless incaution, and read their message window -- especially when they're in an unfamiliar situation. There's another person who has this same story except instead of getting malmutated while tabbing down the orbs of fire, they got tormented by a curse toe that wandered into view and then killed by the orb of fire fireballs or a stray electric golem or whatever. The problem in this case isn't that your character got mutated, but that you were recklessly incautious.

Characters in crawl do not become invincible (with rare exceptions), so playing as though you are is generally going to get you killed one way or another.

NessOnett wrote:Again, maybe if I had had more practice in drawing orbs around corners, if I had known enough to invest in more offensive or mobility options to expose myself less, or had general other better knowledge of the game that I probably still don't possess, then yes maybe I could have dealt with those orbs without being so horribly disfigured. But as a new player, I don't. I can't. And you need to understand that before you start giving advice that is only relevant to those who already know it.


Orbs aren't the only things that need to be drawn around corners -- using terrain against monsters is crawl 101. But even presupposing that a player doesn't know that, they could learn that it's seen as an obvious choice by reading duvessa's post -- or one of the various other posts in this thread making the same point. None of these pieces of advice are unintelligible or useless to new players. They're only useless if you decide that it's not worth taking the time to listen to what an experienced player is saying.

NessOnett wrote:I can clear Dark Souls up to NG+7 with a SL 1 character using bare fists(takes forever, I wouldn't recommend it).


Have you actually done this? If yes, then you're nuts, because that's incredibly tedious. If not, then this is just silly hyperbole. Further, anyone who can use a controller and can learn can achieve this given enough time because death isn't permanent in Dark Souls. It just requires enough patience and time.

NessOnett wrote:Which was where am I 'least likely' to be mutated assuming I'm playing at a low level(in terms of player experience, not character power). Which never truly got answered by anyone. But from what I can infer at this point seems to be: "Places that aren't hell."


Actually, Hell rarely mutates you, since no malmutating monsters spawn in Hell. It's possible to be mutated by hell effects, but it's not all that common. Pan and Zot:5 are much more likely to mutate you, in my experience.
Last edited by Lasty on Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 14:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 14:06

Re: Mutationless Branches

Not to diminish your points, but I remember at least one Dis layout that places cacodemons, and I vaguely remember seeing nexoqwertys in Geh.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 14:08

Re: Mutationless Branches

I second Jiyva, great endgame god if you don't like bad mutations.
MuCK;
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612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 15:18

Re: Mutationless Branches

Lasty wrote:Orbs aren't the only things that need to be drawn around corners -- using terrain against monsters is crawl 101. But even presupposing that a player doesn't know that, they could learn that it's seen as an obvious choice by reading duvessa's post -- or one of the various other posts in this thread making the same point. None of these pieces of advice are unintelligible or useless to new players. They're only useless if you decide that it's not worth taking the time to listen to what an experienced player is saying.
Duvessa guide on how to not get mutations is helpful, I appreciate it.
But I think that "new player" who is playing his/her first game would not run around without rMut even with those advices given.

New players needs empirical experience about game mechanics; this experience can be gained after playing many games(and by remembering advices from experienced players); so themselves(new players) will eventually get that experience/feeling about "you dont need rMut".
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Post Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 18:29

Re: Mutationless Branches

duvessa wrote:GlassGo, I think you will find that after you win a few more 15-rune games, you will start to find that part of the game quite boring and trivial once you are familiar with it. My last 15-rune game was in 2012, and my last 15-rune game that wasn't a mummy of Trog was in 2011. Once you learn how to do extended it will feel very similar to how e.g. Zot feels to you now - a victory parade at best, and at worst a tedious slog that challenges your patience rather than your skill.
Of course there will always remain challenge conditions to make extended branches interesting (branchless, for example) but that is also the case for 3-rune games!

Furthermore, while you are free to prefer 15-rune games, barging into 50% of all advice threads and derailing it by telling players their 3-rune wins don't count, when absolutely nobody visibly agrees with you, is kind of an obnoxious thing to do.


Well, I agree with the whole post except "boring and trivial". Boring - maybe, but trivial? Or are you talking about Mu here? I don't think that 3 rune game is less trivial than 15 rune game
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