A few questions about SpEn

[GlassGo]

Well, I don't see how you can run away from Torment\Hellfire-smiting fiends. Especially for "Spriggan without many fights" that have not so huge HP pool.
But I do not have much experience in the game, to be honest.

[Sandman25]

cBlink (+4 translocation), high stealth (+5 aptitude and non-heavy armour), haste (+4 charms), invisibility (+2 hexes), speed (0.6 turn per move).

[GlassGo]

cBlink is Translocation 7, stealth and Invisibility didn't work at all on neversleeping seeinvis fiends, Haste is good, especially on Spriggans. So so.
Looks like a real ultimate challendge.

[Lasty]

Stealth absolutely works on fiends, and fiends do sleep. I think you mean the fiends summoned by hell effects; yes, those are not asleep when they are spawned, and they do see you immediately when they are spawned. It's true that many monsters in the extended game have see invis, but not all.

cBlink being Translocation 7 doesn't prevent anyone from learning it, and that goes double for spriggans -- literally, because you effectively get double value from experience paid into Translocations.

[zardo]

cBlink is Translocation 7, stealth and Invisibility didn't work at all on neversleeping seeinvis fiends, Haste is good, especially on Spriggans. So so.
Looks like a real ultimate challendge.

I was going to respond with pretty much what Lasty said but then he said it. So I will say that there is *one* good reason for Sp not to have controlled blink in extended and that is that you never found it, which is certainly a possibility. But just walking around a corner with haste will suffice, or of course popping a teleport if there's really nothing else to do. Death's Door or various protective god abilities can be good backup too if things start to look really bad.

[GlassGo]

Well, I don't remember Spriggan's aptitudes, but Trans 7 is really not that easy to reach.
As for steath - there is a topic "Pure stealth build is not viable (Also Dithmembos is meh))", where said, that even usual plain Orcs can see char under Umbra and ~20 Stealth. That's a... LOL in case of fiends, who actually have See invisible...
Still looks like ultimate challendge.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Well, I don't remember Spriggan's aptitudes, but Trans 7 is really not that easy to reach.

Spriggan Translocation aptitude is +4. That means that the skill trains at DOUBLE the speed of a 0 aptitude. This makes a level 7 spell very easy to cast. On top of that, you are a spriggan, which means that you are wearing a robe and have a large int score.

Still looks like ultimate challendge.

It's actually pretty easy to do extended without fighting much of anything, much easier than it is to kill everything (except Tomb, don't get me started on Tomb). But your attitude indicates that you aren't even open to the possibility, and I can't explain the emergent ruleset of a game to a layman in one post or even a bunch of posts, so whatever.

[zardo]

Well, I don't remember Spriggan's aptitudes, but Trans 7 is really not that easy to reach.
As for steath - there is a topic "Pure stealth build is not viable (Also Dithmembos is meh))", where said, that even usual plain Orcs can see char under Umbra and ~20 Stealth. That's a... LOL in case of fiends, who actually have See invisible...
Still looks like ultimate challendge.

This is a misunderstanding of stealth and why it's good. Stealth alone will not allow you to walk up to high-level monsters and stab them to death. Well, it will, but only occasionally. It will however, give you several turns upon seeing something dangerous to get out of line of sight, at which point that something is at least temporarily irrelevant.

I mean, you realize the people you're talking to have *done* the things they're talking about, right?

[crate]

It will however, give you several turns upon seeing something dangerous to get out of line of sight, at which point that something is at least temporarily irrelevant.

with spriggan in particular, the other effect of stealth--that enemies out-of-los lose track of you faster--is imo even more important

[GlassGo]

I mean, you realize the people you're talking to have *done* the things they're talking about, right?

I realize, but think, that these people exaggerate reliability of stealth.
You in Tartarus, e.g. right near to you spawned Shadow fiends. You can escape, Haste is still exist, but what does this have with Stealth?

It will however, give you several turns upon seeing something dangerous to get out of line of sight, at which point that something is at least temporarily irrelevant.

I know it very well, that's why I always rise this skill to at least 10-15 - it's very useful to see some unique or hydra\deathyak before them notice you.
That's why I call it "ultimate challendge" - you should run, becouse you aren't able to kill anyone.
For me - it's easier to kill anyone, that to run.

[Sandman25]

I realize, but think, that these people exaggerate reliability of stealth.
You in Tartarus, e.g. right near to you spawned Shadow fiends. You can escape, Haste is still exist, but what does this have with Stealth?

Initially you wanted to kill everything with Stealth, now you want to escape everything with Stealth... Crawl philosophy explicitly states that "no brainers" should be fixed.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

I realize, but think, that these people exaggerate reliability of stealth.

On the contrary. Whenever I do talk about stealth it is usually to say "stealth's not reliable, you will die if you rely on it to survive"

For me - it's easier to kill anyone, that to run.

Okay well that's basically the exact opposite of playing crawl well.

[GlassGo]

Initially you wanted to kill everything with Stealth, now you want to escape everything with Stealth... Crawl philosophy explicitly states that "no brainers" should be fixed.

I don't want it. Quote me please, where I said it.

Okay well that's basically the exact opposite of playing crawl well.

Okay, you should see my char morgue file. Maybe you'll find some revelation in there.

[Lasty]

I realize, but think, that these people exaggerate reliability of stealth.
You in Tartarus, e.g. right near to you spawned Shadow fiends. You can escape, Haste is still exist, but what does this have with Stealth?

You've stated that you consider 15 rune games to be "normal", but even considering that you have to admit that the case you're describing includes less than 1% of the monsters you will encounter. This is like saying "acid damage is bad because the Royal Jelly is immune to it."

Actually, it's probably a little closer to "Evocations is a terrible skill because it doesn't improve your HP." Stealth is very good at the things it does do. It is very bad at the things it does not do. One of the things it does not do is allow you to stab hell effect summons.

[Sandman25]

I realize, but think, that these people exaggerate reliability of stealth.
You in Tartarus, e.g. right near to you spawned Shadow fiends. You can escape, Haste is still exist, but what does this have with Stealth?

Here you are describing a specific situation and then ask how Stealth helps here. Stealth is not supposed to help or even matter in every possible situation.
Compare with
"You are in Tartarus and get paralysed by Hell effects. Why did you train Dodging and Axes to 26, they are completely useless".
or
"You are in Gehenna, open a door and get hellfired by Hell Sentinel. Why did you train Armour, it is completely useless".
or
"You are on D9 and get banished by Erolcha. Why did you train Fighting, HP is completely useless".