Mp regeneration needs a serious buff


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Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1337

Joined: Saturday, 7th July 2012, 02:28

Location: Limbo

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 11:00

Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

For many of you this would be a dream character. Very early on you get a ring of regeneration, or "Ring of Early Game Invulnerability" as it would be in the hands of a skilled Avoider-Of-Trouble.
Then soon thereafter you find a robe of archmagi, which is funny because your only directly offensive spell is magic dart.
Coincidentally you also grab a staff of conjuration just a couple of floors after that. Fortunately, books also start appearing.
(Oh and you try out force lance which is an abysmal spell that can barely oneshot a yak at max power by the way.)

You can absolutely destroy everything in your way, but then it strikes you like a sack of bricks.
this is going so slow

You have to rest up after every encounter, every little pack of rats that eat up a couple of fireballs - because that's already a third of your mana pool. You'd be a fool to continue without restoring it.
And boy, does restoring it take a long time!
Good thing you don't have to do it every single time you kill something.. Oh wait, yes you do! And that's awful!

So awful, your character dying to your utter lack of caring brings you more joy than you could ever have playing it.
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0-12-g87ee3b7 (webtiles) character file.

45827 Bloax the Eclecticist (level 13, -3/68 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Elf Wizard on Apr 15, 2014.
             Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
             Slain by a demonic crawler (7 damage)
             ... on Level 1 of the Spider Nest.
             The game lasted 02:07:34 (10039 turns).

Bloax the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Wizard)            Turns: 10039, Time: 02:07:34 [Note: That's 1.3 turns/second, and that's really slow.]

HP  -3/68        AC  6     Str 19      XL: 13   Next: 97%
MP   2/37        EV 28     Int 44      God: Cheibriados [******]
Gold 1176        SH  0     Dex 31      Spells: 10 memorised,  7 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     s - staff of conjuration {!a}
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     w - +1 robe {Archmagi}
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     R - +0 hat {SInv}
rElec  .         rRot     .     j - +0 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     k - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     B - +0 pair of boots
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    U - +3 ring of dexterity
                                o - ring of regeneration

@: repel missiles, about to teleport, very slow, somewhat resistant to hostile
enchantments, quite stealthy
A: no striking features
a: Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce Religion


You were on level 1 of the Spider Nest.
You worshipped Cheibriados.
Cheibriados was exalted by your worship.
You were full.

You visited 4 branches of the dungeon, and saw 19 of its levels.
You also visited: Ossuary.

You collected 1176 gold pieces.

   Skills:
 - Level 2.5 Fighting
   Level 4.9 Long Blades
 - Level 0.3 Maces & Flails
 - Level 3.5 Bows
 + Level 12.2 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 15.3 Spellcasting
 + Level 13.1 Conjurations
   Level 1.8 Hexes
 - Level 2.2 Charms
 - Level 1.1 Summonings
 - Level 3.5 Translocations
 - Level 7.0 Fire Magic
 + Level 3.2 Earth Magic
 - Level 2.1 Poison Magic
 - Level 9.6 Invocations
 - Level 3.1 Evocations


You had 7 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         0%          1    None
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
c - Call Imp              Summ           ######..     1%          2    None
d - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ########     1%          3    None
e - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ########     1%          3    None
f - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ######       1%          2    None
g - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ########..   1%          5    None
h - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      ########..   4%          6    None
i - Orb of Destruction    Conj           ########..   2%          7    ##.....
x - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           ########     1%          4    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (8/15)             Temple (1/1) D:6            Lair (8/8) D:8
 Spider (2/5) Lair:4        Slime (0/6) Lair:7     
 Swamp: Lair:3-6    Shoals: Lair:3-6     Snake: Lair:3-6   

Altars:
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Annotations:
D:6 best weapon here
Lair:2 exclusion: oklob plant

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 e - a +4,+0 whip of electrocution
   (You took it off Pikel on level 8 of the Dungeon)
 i - a +1,+0 bow
   (You took it off a centaur on level 6 of the Dungeon)
 O - the +5,+3 war axe of Daproef {chop, +Rage rPois rC+ Dex+2}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It affects your dexterity (+2).
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you go berserk.
   
   Cheibriados disapproves of the use of such an item.
Missiles
 n - 37 arrows
 u - a throwing net (quivered)
Armour
 j - a +0 cloak (worn)
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 k - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
   (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)
 w - a +1 robe of the Archmagi (worn)
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)
 B - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
   (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts)
 D - a +0 buckler
   (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)
 R - a +0 hat of see invisible (worn)
   (You took it off Gastronok on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
Magical devices
 t - a wand of confusion (11)
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
 x - a wand of polymorph (6)
   (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 C - a wand of confusion (16)
   (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)
 H - a wand of teleportation (2)
   (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 W - a wand of cold (3)
   (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts)
Comestibles
 d - 13 bread rations
 f - 5 meat rations
Scrolls
 a - a scroll of fear
 m - 4 scrolls of blinking
 q - a scroll of identify
 v - a scroll of fog
 y - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 E - a scroll of teleportation
 F - a scroll of noise {!r}
 X - a scroll of remove curse
 Y - 2 scrolls of amnesia
Jewellery
 g - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
   (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)
 o - a ring of regeneration (left hand)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Dungeon)
 r - an uncursed ring of ice
   (You took it off Fannar on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 M - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
   (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)
 Q - an uncursed ring of teleportation
   (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts)
 U - a +3 ring of dexterity (right hand)
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)
Potions
 h - 9 potions of curing
 p - a potion of mutation {unknown}
 z - 2 potions of heal wounds
 A - a potion of agility
 I - 2 potions of brilliance
 J - 2 potions of resistance
 N - 2 potions of restore abilities
 P - a potion of invisibility
 S - a potion of might
Books
 l - a book of Wizardry
   (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Summon Elemental                   Summoning                    4
   Agony                              Necromancy                   5
   Force Lance                        Conjuration                  5
   Haste                              Charms                       6
   Invisibility                       Hexes                        6
   Spellforged Servitor               Conjuration/Summoning        7
 G - a book of the Tempests
   (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Static Discharge                   Conjuration/Air              3
   Lightning Bolt                     Conjuration/Air              5
   *Fireball                          Conjuration/Fire             5
   Tornado                            Air                          9
   Shatter                            Earth                        9
 K - a book of Power
   (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Fulminant Prism                    Conjuration/Hexes            4
   *Iskenderun's Mystic Blast         Conjuration                  4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5
   Bolt of Magma                      Conjuration/Fire/Earth       5
   *Iron Shot                         Conjuration/Earth            6
   *Orb of Destruction                Conjuration                  7
Magical staves
 s - an uncursed staff of conjuration (weapon) {!a}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)
 T - an uncursed staff of cold {!a}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)
Miscellaneous
 b - a phial of floods
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
 c - a lamp of fire
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)
 L - a lamp of fire
   (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)
 V - a phial of floods
   (You found it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)


   ###        ####
  ##.#########...#
 ##.......##^.#..#
##.......#..#....
................##
..............#.@#
...............s##
...............##
..%....>#......#
.............###
.........>..#..##
...../......s#..#
...............##
...............#


You could see a demonic crawler.

Message History

The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler misses you.
The demonic crawler misses you. x2
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
The demonic crawler closely misses you. The demonic crawler misses you.
The demonic crawler barely misses you. The scorpion completely misses you.
The demonic crawler hits you!
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler closely misses you.
You climb upwards.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
Unknown command.
Casting: Fireball
You feel a surge of power! You blink.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
The demonic crawler hits you!
The demonic crawler hits you but does no damage.
The demonic crawler misses you.
Unknown command.
Casting: Blink
You feel a surge of power! You blink.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler misses you.
The demonic crawler hits you but does no damage.
The demonic crawler completely misses you. x2
The demonic crawler hits you but does no damage.
Unknown command.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler hits you!
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler misses you. The demonic crawler hits you.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler closely misses you.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler hits you but does no damage.
The demonic crawler barely misses you.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The demonic crawler hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The demonic crawler hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
As you read the scroll of teleportation, it crumbles to dust.
You feel strangely unstable. The demonic crawler closely misses you.
The demonic crawler misses you. The demonic crawler closely misses you.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel better. The demonic crawler barely misses you.
The demonic crawler closely misses you. The demonic crawler hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The demonic crawler hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The demonic crawler hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The demonic crawler hits you!
You die...


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |     9 |       |       |       |       ||     9
       Unarmed           |     3 |       |       |       |       ||     3
       Short sword       |    24 |    29 |       |       |       ||    53
       Long sword        |       |    27 |   142 |    85 |       ||   254
       Whip              |       |       |    14 |   109 |    75 ||   198
       Staff             |       |       |       |     4 |     1 ||     5
       Quarterstaff      |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       War axe           |       |       |       |    33 |    12 ||    45
 Fire: Bow               |       |       |    36 |    23 |       ||    59
Throw: Dart              |       |       |    29 |     9 |       ||    38
       Tomahawk          |       |       |    10 |    22 |     1 ||    33
 Cast: Magic Dart        |    68 |    54 |   119 |    87 |    12 ||   340
       Conjure Flame     |     5 |    10 |    30 |     3 |     2 ||    50
       Mephitic Cloud    |     1 |     2 |    11 |    11 |     1 ||    26
       Blink             |       |     1 |    12 |    25 |    17 ||    55
       Call Imp          |       |       |    14 |       |     1 ||    15
       Slow              |       |       |     6 |       |       ||     6
       Repel Missiles    |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
       Force Lance       |       |       |     3 |    53 |       ||    56
       Fireball          |       |       |       |    68 |    47 ||   115
       Iskenderun's Myst |       |       |       |    32 |    20 ||    52
       Orb of Destructio |       |       |       |     5 |    15 ||    20
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
Invok: Temporal Distorti |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |    13 |     9 |     8 |     3 ||    33
       Lamp of fire      |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Phial of floods   |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |     3 |     6 |    13 |    16 |     5 ||    43
       Potion            |     1 |     1 |       |     7 |     1 ||    10
 Stab: Confused          |     1 |       |     3 |     4 |       ||     8
       Sleeping          |       |       |     3 |     2 |       ||     5

Vault maps used:
D:1:      grunt_arrival_lava_bath, xom_teletrap_fun
D:2:      first_bread, nrook_uturn
D:3:      fedhas_bush_and_centaur_altar, lexackson_kobold_supper
D:4:      gammafunk_temple_overflow_forgotten, gup_sewer_entry_pipe,
          minivault_24, kennysheep_potato
D:5:      enter_ossuary_1
D:6:      lemuel_doored_altar, minmay_temple_entry_hall, lemuel_angel_altar,
          uniq_edmund, uniq_grinder
D:7:      grunt_ogre_cave, grunt_ministairs_7, minmay_fountain_box,
          makhleb_altar_promises_db
D:8:      erik_lair_island, kennysheep_nondescript, uniq_pikel
Temple:   triangle_lava_temple_11
Lair:1:   serial_bayou_shore_b, uniq_fannar
Lair:2:   minmay_lair_oklob_bushes
Lair:3:   shoals_dummy_entry, uniq_gastronok
Lair:4:   spider_nest_entry_webs
Lair:5:   bh_autumn_forest_stairs
Lair:7:   nicolae_slime_entry_wandering_lumps
Lair:8:   grunt_lair_end_beastmaster, st_stairs_4,
          grunt_forest_small_clearing_treed
Spider:1: uniq_sonja
Ossuary:  ossuary_tomb_3

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Bloax, the Deep Elf Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 6/6
    84 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 9/15 MP: 0/10
    97 | D:1      | Reached skill level 2 in Conjurations
   133 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
   136 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp
   162 | D:1      | HP: 3/15 [kobold (2)]
   185 | D:1      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
   189 | D:1      | HP: 3/15 [giant newt (2)]
   422 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 5/19 MP: 7/13
   440 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
   444 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
   470 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
   693 | D:3      | Reached skill level 2 in Translocations
   780 | D:3      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
   781 | D:3      | Noticed a centaur
   859 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
   869 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
   869 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
   869 | D:4      | Reached skill level 3 in Conjurations
   869 | D:4      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 4/18
   869 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 4/20
   880 | D:4      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
   907 | D:4      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
   907 | D:4      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
   908 | D:4      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  1038 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  1040 | D:4      | HP: 6/28 [ogre/giant club (22)]
  1048 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  1054 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  1054 | D:4      | Reached skill level 3 in Dodging
  1054 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Conjurations
  1059 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  1059 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 16/32 MP: 6/22
  1197 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  1197 | D:5      | Found a sand-covered staircase.
  1225 | Ossuary  | Entered an ossuary
  1231 | Ossuary  | LOL
  1310 | Ossuary  | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging
  1421 | Ossuary  | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
  1554 | D:5      | Noticed Deemzul's ghost (experienced OpMo)
  1575 | D:5      | Killed Deemzul's ghost
  1575 | D:5      | Reached skill level 2 in Long Blades
  1575 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  1575 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 24/36 MP: 17/25
  1672 | D:5      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
  1680 | D:5      | Learned a level 2 spell: Slow
  1731 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  1773 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
  1773 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  1778 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
  1842 | D:5      | You fall through a shaft!
  1941 | D:6      | Reached skill level 2 in Charms
  1941 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 22/41 MP: 16/27
  2000 | D:6      | Reached skill level 2 in Evocations
  2019 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  2025 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  2041 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative
  2042 | Temple   | stone cold crazy
  2100 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  2116 | D:6      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  2135 | D:6      | kekek
  2142 | D:6      | Noticed Grinder
  2167 | D:6      | Killed Grinder
  2167 | D:6      | Reached skill level 3 in Long Blades
  2167 | D:6      | Reached skill level 6 in Dodging
  2167 | D:6      | Reached skill level 2 in Poison Magic
  2167 | D:6      | Reached skill level 3 in Evocations
  2266 | D:6      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  2266 | D:6      | Noticed an angel
  2269 | D:6      | kek
  2507 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
  2574 | D:7      | Reached skill level 4 in Long Blades
  2615 | D:7      | Reached skill level 3 in Translocations
  2648 | D:7      | Reached skill level 7 in Dodging
  2670 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 7/29
  2762 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Bows
  2790 | D:8      | Noticed BoredOne's ghost (average FoFi)
  2861 | D:7      | Learned a level 5 spell: Force Lance
  2927 | D:8      | Reached skill level 2 in Bows
  2927 | D:8      | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
  3024 | D:8      | Reached skill level 8 in Dodging
  3033 | D:8      | Reached skill level 3 in Bows
  3033 | D:8      | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations
  3163 | D:8      | Killed BoredOne's ghost
  3222 | D:8      | Noticed Pikel
  3267 | D:8      | Killed Pikel
  3340 | D:8      | Acquired Cheibriados' first power
  3352 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 47/50 MP: 22/31
  3363 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  3381 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
  3469 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  3669 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  3681 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 9 in Dodging
  3687 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations
  3701 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  3773 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 2 in Invocations
  3809 | Lair:1   | Noticed Fannar
  3945 | Lair:1   | Killed Fannar
  3945 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 2 in Fighting
  3945 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 3 in Invocations
  4049 | Lair:1   | Acquired Cheibriados' second power
  4227 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting
  4276 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball
  4316 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 7 spell: Orb of Destruction
  4316 | Lair:2   | ooh baby
  4393 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  4435 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations
  4446 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 4 in Invocations
  4453 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
  4459 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 2 in Fire Magic
  4469 | Lair:2   | Acquired Cheibriados' third power
  4558 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 58/58 MP: 16/33
  4784 | Lair:3   | Noticed Gastronok
  4814 | Lair:2   | Noticed an oklob plant
  4949 | Lair:3   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
  4953 | Lair:3   | Killed a six-headed hydra
  4953 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 3 in Fire Magic
  4980 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
  5093 | Lair:3   | good morning honey
  5142 | Lair:3   | Got a shimmering war axe
  5143 | Lair:3   | Identified the +5,+3 war axe of Daproef {chop, +Rage rPois rC+ Dex+2} (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
  5144 | Lair:3   | that'll do
  5171 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 9 in Conjurations
  5187 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 4 in Fire Magic
  5537 | Lair:3   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
  5545 | Lair:3   | Killed a four-headed hydra
  5545 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 6 in Invocations
  5702 | Lair:3   | Killed Gastronok
  5702 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
  6054 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
  6054 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 27/64 MP: 1/34
  6054 | Lair:3   | HP: 10/64 [griffon (17)]
  6054 | Lair:3   | HP: 4/64 [griffon (6)]
  6077 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting
  6077 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 7 in Invocations
  6214 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 6 in Fire Magic
  6273 | Lair:3   | Learned a level 4 spell: Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
  6296 | Lair:3   | will you die already
  6313 | Lair:3   | you too
  6375 | Lair:4   | WOW
  6427 | Lair:5   | pop
  6572 | Lair:6   | HISS
  6572 | Lair:6   | splat
  6993 | Lair:7   | oh mu
  7105 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 7 in Fire Magic
  7112 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 8 in Invocations
  7249 | Lair:7   | HP: 9/64 [elephant (12)]
  7260 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations
  7261 | Lair:6   | ooga ooga 360 headshot booga
  7330 | Lair:5   | why are there so many fucking blink frogs
  7337 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 13 in Spellcasting
  7351 | Lair:5   | thanks
  7427 | Lair:5   | wow wow oww
  7429 | Lair:5   | jesus man
  7429 | Lair:5   | calm down
  7641 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 9 in Invocations
  7908 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
  7913 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 68/68 MP: 14/36
  7926 | Lair:7   | ACTION....
  7926 | Lair:7   | hold
  8344 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 12 in Conjurations
  8358 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 14 in Spellcasting
  8538 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 11 in Dodging
  8848 | Lair:8   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
  8849 | Lair:8   | speaking of commiting suicide
  9138 | Lair:8   | Killed a four-headed hydra
  9239 | Lair:7   | Learned a level 6 spell: Iron Shot
  9268 | Lair:7   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
  9276 | Lair:7   | boom baby
  9454 | Lair:5   | splat
  9464 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 1 in Earth Magic
  9505 | Lair:5   | oink
  9511 | Lair:5   | OINK!!
  9516 | Lair:5   | oink :)
  9575 | Lair:5   | go away
  9583 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
  9608 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 2 in Earth Magic
  9724 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 13 in Conjurations
  9725 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 12 in Dodging
  9829 | Lair:4   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
  9903 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
  9992 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 3 in Earth Magic
 10039 | Spider:1 | HP: 13/68 [demonic crawler (11)]
 10039 | Spider:1 | HP: 4/68 [demonic crawler (9)]
 10039 | Spider:1 | Slain by a demonic crawler

Vanquished Creatures
  Gastronok (Lair:3)
  Fannar (Lair:1)
  3 hydras
  7 death yaks (Lair:8)
  A deep troll shaman (Lair:8)
  A catoblepas (Lair:8)
  An orb spider (Spider:1)
  Pikel (D:8)
  4 wolf spiders
  3 griffons
  6 elephants
  3 black mambas
  A molten gargoyle (Lair:5)
  The ghost of Deemzul the Martial Artist, an experienced OpMo (D:5)
  4 spiny frogs
  A demonic crawler (Spider:2)
  A fire drake (Lair:6)
  Grinder (D:6)
  6 komodo dragons
  A two-headed ogre (D:8)
  3 boulder beetles (Lair:8)
  17 blink frogs
  2 basilisks
  57 yaks
  A tarantella (Spider:2)
  4 fire bats (Lair:5)
  3 trapdoor spiders
  8 hippogriffs
  19 wolves
  2 wyverns
  An orc warrior (D:8)
  7 water moccasins
  A slave (D:8)
  3 spiders (Spider:2)
  9 porcupines
  3 black bears
  8 ogres
  The ghost of BoredOne the Shield-Bearer, an average FoFi (D:8)
  An ice beast (D:7)
  2 centaurs
  A phantom (D:6)
  2 boring beetles
  11 crocodiles
  A lava worm (Lair:5)
  3 giant slugs (Lair:1)
  10 giant frogs
  A big kobold (D:7)
  2 pulsating lumps (Lair:7)
  A goliath beetle (D:7)
  3 lava snakes (Lair:5)
  2 electric eels
  4 big fish (D:8)
  8 hounds
  2 quasits
  3 iguanas
  2 worker ants
  A big kobold zombie (Ossuary)
  7 sheep (Lair:5)
  A gnoll (D:1)
  10 mummies (Ossuary)
  12 adders
  A giant mite (Lair:6)
  58 green rats
  5 worms
  An adder zombie (D:5)
  A giant eyeball (D:4)
  9 giant geckos
  6 orcs
  21 bats
  A bat skeleton (D:7)
  A bat zombie (D:7)
  2 giant cockroaches
  2 gnoll zombies (Ossuary)
  4 goblins
  9 hobgoblins
  14 jackals
  7 kobolds
  5 quokkas
  A ball python (D:4)
  2 giant newts
  A hobgoblin zombie (Ossuary)
  A kobold skeleton (D:7)
  A kobold zombie (Ossuary)
  An orc skeleton (D:4)
  3 orc zombies (Ossuary)
  A quokka zombie (D:8)
  11 rats
  A rat skeleton (D:7)
  A bush (Lair:5)
  7 fungi
  6 plants
471 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A hydra (Lair:3)
  A death yak (Lair:8)
  2 yaks (Lair:3)
  A hippogriff (Lair:3)
  An ice beast (D:7)
  5 green rats (Lair:3)
  A rat (Lair:3)
12 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A polar bear (Lair:8)
  A water elemental (Lair:3)
  A slave (D:8)
  A crocodile (Lair:8)
  2 crimson imps (D:7)
  2 hounds (D:8)
  A shadow imp (D:6)
  7 white imps
  4 fungi
  2 plants
22 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 505 creatures vanquished

You may argue that it's a balancing mechanic because magic is stronger than melee (now there's a good one), but you are already severely disadvantaged by you not having an infinite pool of attacks.
And even then - even with mana regeneration as high as 1 mp/turn you would still have to spend nine turns to cast a level 9 spell once. (You don't have to wait that long before you can hit something again in dragon form.)

As it is now, mana regeneration is excruciatingly slow. This is bad not because it prevents you from always casting (which is alright), but because it forces you to rest up even after a flawless fight.
Now you might be thinking "but why shouldn't it do so?", well - do you have to rest up every encounter where you didn't take any damage in melee? No, you don't - you killed them good, now kill some more! Have fun!
All I want is that the game doesn't tease me with immense power (which can be matched in melee, mind) but at the same time forces me into a grinding halt after every fight. (Do you want to have fun blasting? That's silly.)

just let me recover most of that mana while walking around
pretty please?

i wanna as much fun killing things as a caster as i do in melee, but this "mana regeneration" fellow really doesn't want me to
please have a talk with him, he's really mean
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 11:18

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

How is that different from HP? Getting HP and MP back by resting might not be a great game mechanic, but it's deeply integrated into DCSS, and I don't think it's going anywhere.

Also, higher MP regen is actually very useful in combat, I had a Ds with the MP facet once and it was pretty strong. So just giving everyone a lot more MP regen would cause problems. Additionally, the downtime after combat that you are complaining about is there for a reason, some monster might find you while you are weakened, possibly making the fight a lot more interesting.

And finally, nothing is stopping you from picking up a weapon to kill rats with. It would probably be a good idea to have a way to kill stuff when you are out of MP anyway. There's a key for quickly swapping weapons.

For this message the author Galefury has received thanks:
Sar
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 11:23

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

As Galefury said, it can't be changed without messing the balance quite a lot. Also, it's mostly an interface issue. Try those options:
  Code:
rest_delay = -1
rest_wait_both = true
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 11:26

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Oh, and if you want you can write a macro to rest to full MP and then autoexplore, and map that macro to 'o'. It may not be as simple as 5o, you only want to rest before exploring if you're not at full MP already, and you might want to check if enemies are in sight before trying to rest. But it's doable, and shouldn't be too hard.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 11:32

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

I don't know about you, but even with default settings I spend less real-time resting up from an empty mana pool than I do casting spells to empty that mana pool. It costs more game turns, but I don't really care about those very much. At most, it slows down piety gain a tiny bit.
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1337

Joined: Saturday, 7th July 2012, 02:28

Location: Limbo

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 11:42

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Aiming spells indeed makes magic much slower than melee, but then we also have even greater recovery times in addition to that.
It's fun all around I tell you, why not just melee things and have a merry killing spree instead of taking breathers around every corner.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 12:51

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Also, giving MP regeneration a buff doesn't actually fix the problem you describe, because you still just hit 5 after your MP is low. I guess you will get somewhat fewer interruptions of MP recharge on average but that isn't what you were complaining about anyway. The only real way to address MP/HP recharge is to remove them somehow but I can't think of any way to do that without having to re-balance and redesign the game fundamentally around that removal, at which point basically you have a completely different game.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 13:33

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Choosing to use force lance and fireball to kill rats is a challenge condition, and it shouldn't surprise you that it feels bad. The game is not structured to reward that sort of silliness. Hit the rats with a weapon and save your magic for enemies that matter.

You bring up that it's silly to have to rest even though you haven't taken damage (a "flawless fight", in your words), but you've put your finger on one way that magic can be stronger than melee: throwing it around with reckless abandon does allow you to kill many foes without ever putting your health at risk at all. The tradeoff is that it does require you to spend resources -- mana -- to do it. Your definition of a "flawless fight" being one where you hp doesn't drop misses the fact that for conjuration-heavy/melee-light characters, your mana bar is usually more directly tied to your survival than your health bar. Ending a fight with a green rat down 10+ mana means you did a bad job in that encounter.

Having higher mana regen would be a huge power boost for players so it's not going to happen.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 377

Joined: Friday, 1st February 2013, 21:08

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 15:06

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Increasing mana regen by default would promote brainless mana waste, but, on the other hand, a magic regeneration ego on items could be interesting. I see no obvious reason why we have life regeneration items, but no mana regeneration items. I hope it is not in the name of asymmetry?

Looking at current sources of mana regen we have:
- Several evocation dependent items. Not only are these relatively rare, but also require heavy skill investment to be effective.
- Sublimation of blood. Very nice mana source, except it is limited to corpse access and to be really efficient, requires at least some training of necro.
- Vehumet/Sif Muna. Since no other mana source in the game is guaranteed, these gods are the last chance to make conjurer instead of jack-of-all-trades hybrid.

I like conjurations oriented spellcasters, although the game in general is discouraging such approach due to mana limits. Adding mana regeneration items would require player to make a slot sacrifice, yet also grant him an option to tune character to his playstyle and make certain approaches possible/more pleasurable.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 832

Joined: Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:28

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 15:23

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Bart wrote:but no mana regeneration items


There is the DS magic shield mutation, whose level 2 effect is to double mana regen rate. I got that once and it was pretty neat.

Agree that it would make a nice item ego.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 15:26

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Bart wrote:Sublimation of blood. Very nice mana source, except it is limited to corpse access

I almost always use it on myself. Wielding chunks is such a chore, but most of my casters can trade 20~ HP for 30~ MP without much worry.
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 15:30

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

I have made the suggestion several times to have Sif Muna enhance MP regeneration speed based on your piety level instead of whatever invokable thing Sif Muna is doing now.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
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Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 15:37

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

XuaXua wrote:I have made the suggestion several times to have Sif Muna enhance MP regeneration speed based on your piety level instead of whatever invokable thing Sif Muna is doing now.


Unless the MP regen enhancement were insanely high, this would be a major nerf to Sif that isn't needed. You get on average 1 MP per turn, at * piety (ignoring failure which is usually easy to eliminate). With 8 invocation that becomes 2 MP per turn on average. Even if Sif passively gave you 1 MP per turn at max piety I'd still consider that a nerf, part of what's great about Sif is that channeling is strong and you get it right off the bat.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 377

Joined: Friday, 1st February 2013, 21:08

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 16:02

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Sar wrote:
Bart wrote:Sublimation of blood. Very nice mana source, except it is limited to corpse access

I almost always use it on myself. Wielding chunks is such a chore, but most of my casters can trade 20~ HP for 30~ MP without much worry.

Rather 30 HP -> 20 MP.
Often I do that too, but one really wants a lot of necro for that. If bots are still right:
  Code:
each MP point costing up to 4 (avg. 1 + 18/pow) HP

By the way - sublimation is kind of funny, because it turns mana regeneration problems into health regeneration problems; regen ring becomes mana regen ring. The only downside - you need necro for that and memorized spell, while you don't need any skill for regeneration ring.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 16:06

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

I feel like at 10~ Necro self-sublimation is really good. Weirdly, I do feel like I get more than one MP for a point of HP... maybe it's just because I generally have much more HP than MP.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
nago

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 131

Joined: Wednesday, 2nd May 2012, 10:32

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 21:25

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Just tossing out an idea which, while not solving the problem of having to rest after every fight, does help reduce the amount of ingame turns (and real time for those who don't set the delay to -1) spent waiting: accelerating MP recovery when no monsters are near. When a monster is in LOS, MP recovery occurs at the same rate it does now. For every turn that there are no monsters in LOS, increase MP recovery by some percentage, say 50%. As soon as a monster enters LOS, reset MP recovery to the base rate. That way MP recovery goes exponentially faster when you are in a safe location without providing magic users with a combat buff.

The only potential downside might be reducing the number of cases in which a monster will stumble upon you while you're still recovering from a previous fight since you spend fewer turns doing so.

An alternative solution suggested in a different thread (I forget which one) was to let go of the current "cap" of 50 MP. Continuing to explore without resting after having spent 25 out of 100 MP is a much less risky proposition than doing so after having spent 25 out of 50 MP. It also has the advantage of smoothing out the fact that strong melee characters can take on far larger groups of enemies safely than powerful magic-only characters, who quickly run out of MP and need to rest up (yes, I know many people will say that even casters should pick up a weapon, but personally I believe that magic-only is and should be just as viable a way to play).

The downside of course is that this is pretty much a straight buff for high-level casters, which they probably don't need.
Wins: DEWz^Veh (4 runes), DEWz^Veh (15 runes), DEWz^Sif (3 runes), HOBe^Trog (3 runes), MiDK^Yred (3 runes), DECj^Sif (4 runes), GrBe^Trog (3 runes), DECj^Vehu (3 runes), MiFi^Wu Jian (3 runes), DEFE^Veh (3 runes), DEFE^Veh (15 runes)

Slime Squisher

Posts: 377

Joined: Friday, 1st February 2013, 21:08

Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 07:44

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

After some discussions yesterday online and few hours spent on setting a conjurer up, along with my proposal of adding regeneration ring I have to agree with Bloax - mana regeneration is annoyingly slow no matter what. Let me explain what I mean: well equipped melee characters can proceed almost without stopping to heal, but even amazingly dressed mages, like the one Bloax presented here, cannot do the same without god's help.

The story of my character is similar:
I have a conjurer of Ashenzari with extremely high int thanks to findings and spellcasting is the highest skill to boost precious MP. Even when I kill multiple enemies with single/two casts of cloud spells, I still need to wait dozens of turns to regenerate mana back. This really grinds my gears. I also fight mediocrely dangerous enemies with my randart weapon, yet I need to stop to regenerate mana, not life. I can safely win any combat, I never run out of mana, but I also never reach my mana full.

I expect at some point a reply that "this is intended", yet I would really like to see the reasoning behind it. Most people do not mind if "5" symbol wipes off their keyboard, but some, like me and Bloax, do. As already said, players should not be encouraged to waste mana by its overabundance and ~50 max MP makes each fight tactically interesting. Removing this cap is going to even exaggerate the problem, because it promotes mana wasting and eventually 100MP regenerates slower than 50MP.

The game of mage could be much more interesting, if it was not a game of optimizing spells towards crazy mana efficiency. It is not possible to currently optimize mage's gameplay in a way he does not need to rest because of low mana except of worshippers of Vehu/Sif. Please consider bringing more mana regeneration sources into the game and/or grant increased mana regeneration out of combat (only when no monsters are within sight, only when character is resting). Mana regen items could also require tactical choice if they required time to kick in. Appropriate addressing of mana issue will increase mages' game pace and it fits the concept of limiting uninteresting, unnecessary aspects of the game.

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 08:14

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Maybe I'm missing something, but the problem as described still sounds mainly to be an interface problem. Ideally, after a fight you'd find a safe corner, press 5 once and be healed to max HP and MP. The actual regen rate would seem to be irrelevant in achieving this ideal (You don't care how many turns it takes, you just want to press 5 once instead of many times). You might not even have to press 5 if, say, the autoexplore button is set to automatically rest for you.

I do think a fast mana regen item ego could be tactically interesting though.
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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 08:29

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Maybe there needs to be an 'autorest' that finds the nearest safe resting point (far from recently seen monsters, unexplored territory, has a good route to the stairs with good way to get coverage from anything coming out), moves you to it and rests until heal? I mean, we have autoexplore as well.

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 08:54

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

DracheReborn, Patashu, like many others who do not see a problem, you are missing turncount. It might sound painful to you, but in many games I do not use rest button at all (I also tend to play stronger species, so it is not as painful as you probably imagine). Call me crazy; I call this optimization. I know that I am in a minority, yet I hope that we can (easily!) meet minorities' expectations as long as the rest of players does not get hurt/affected.

It has always been the case that some builds were more inclined to speedrunning and surely trying to balance classes/species/builds for the sake of speedruns is not reasonable. Nevertheless, I tend to avoid resting (not only when speedrunning), as resting is a sign to me that previous fight did not go well. I cannot avoid resting on conjurers, though, and I do not think it is coming from faulty play. Therefore I conclude their mana regeneration is an issue. Non-Sif/Vehu gameplay is very suboptimal from this point of view. Mana regeneration is pure reason why I do not normally play conjurers of gods other than Sif Muna or Vehumet (Kiku games are quit games if I do not get sublimation).

For all these players that do not care about mana regen right now, solutions proposed by me will either be invisible (increased regeneration out of combat when resting) or not interesting (mana regen ego does more or less what "5" does right now except it also reduces pain of kiting for mana regen). For these that do care about mana regen, improving it will bring a lot of excitement and plenty of new, interesting strategies onboard.

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 13:13

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

MP management is far and away the most interesting aspect of using magic, and you want to directly, significantly reduce that.

Shooting fireballs at porcupines is faulty play. If you don't want to rest because you shot fireballs at porcupines, the solution is pretty simple. Don't shoot fireballs at porcupines. Memorizing spells does not make melee combat or bows impossible to use.

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 13:27

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Bart, I still think the answer is that for a conjurations-focused character, you should treat losing mana as being similar to losing health: you didn't survive a fight unscathed if your mana is at 0; this is equivalent to a melee-focused character surviving a fight with barely any hp.

Also, fwiw, your mana regen rate depends on the size of your mana pool, so you could achieve your goal to a limited extent by prioritizing staff of energy and rings of magical power. I'm not sure of the exact formula, but the learndb has this to say: "For reference, merely resting will recover 14+maxMP per 600 nutrition, at standard metabolic rates."

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 14:44

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

resting is probably bad game design but quite honestly crawl is not designed to work without resting (see how "well" DD works for no-hp-regen, for instance)
removing resting for MP is less obviously disruptive than removing it for HP, but it's still not something I would consider changing at this point
spending extra turns resting is effectively the entire cost of using conjurations (or summons etc) instead of melee or bows/xbows etc. ... you do significantly more damage per turn (especially once you get to level 5+ spells) and additionally almost always have good range so there should absolutely be a noticeable cost

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 15:17

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

I used to play dedicated conjurers a lot, and (unless you want to waste a lot of turns), IMO a major part of the strategy for those is finding a good way to restore your MP. There are two excellent guaranteed sources (veh and sif), some fairly common and reliable ones (staff channeling, sublimation), and then weird stuff like crystal balls of energy. Any of those, when used right, can cut your downtime significantly to the point where you're actually resting for HP more often than resting for MP (especially if you use the combo of self-sublimate and casting regeneration). Sublimation is maybe my favourite method - if you're using conjurations all the time, you aren't getting hit much anyway, so you might as well put that HP to some use. And the necro skill investment for it to be good is cheap.

In the early game it's different, since you won't have any of these tools for a while, but I never really notice it's a problem there. I find resting for MP only starts to feel like a waste of time once you reach the later parts of the game.

So, while I agree that MP regeneration can be too slow _by itself_, the game offers you a bunch of tools to get around that, and you're supposed to use them if you are relying on spells. They all have some cost attached, but generally are better choices than resting for 100s of turns. I've never thought there are big problems with this system. I've actually played characters where I deliberately used ONLY spells to kill stuff (in other words, no melee at all except by accident) and never felt like I had issues with MP regeneration. I think veh is the most fun choice for this, since he keeps you going in combat and you can hopefully use sublimation when resting. (note that I do not consider that type of "pure caster" to be a very practical idea... "somewhat viable" is not the same thing as "powerful").

I too would prefer a game which doesn't require any resting at all, but crawl is not that game, and I don't think it should be redesigned to fit that ideal.

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 15:18

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Shooting fireballs at porcupines is faulty play. If you don't want to rest because you shot fireballs at porcupines, the solution is pretty simple. Don't shoot fireballs at porcupines. Memorizing spells does not make melee combat or bows impossible to use.

And yeah this is important too. Keep magic dart or something level 2 around if you are allergic to melee. Don't cast fireball on rats.
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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 16:25

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Lasty wrote:Bart, I still think the answer is that for a conjurations-focused character, you should treat losing mana as being similar to losing health: you didn't survive a fight unscathed if your mana is at 0; this is equivalent to a melee-focused character surviving a fight with barely any hp.

Also, fwiw, your mana regen rate depends on the size of your mana pool, so you could achieve your goal to a limited extent by prioritizing staff of energy and rings of magical power. I'm not sure of the exact formula, but the learndb has this to say: "For reference, merely resting will recover 14+maxMP per 600 nutrition, at standard metabolic rates."

That's 0.245 mp/turn [(14+35)/(600/3)] for a caster with 35 maxmp, since the standard metabolic rate for non-combat actions is 3.

I also can't see what's so suboptimal of me if I'm exploiting the fact that I can cast spells strong enough to two-shot death yaks in lair:2 - and then focusing my skills on IOOD/Invocations instead of fighting with my +4,+0 elec whip and 5/27 AC/EV.
And If you're wondering why I'm not taking down green rat packs in melee instead of sending two fireballs their way, then try taking down an entire pack of green rats at once with 60 hp, 2 AC and 26 EV while under the god of impractical positioning.
(Don't even think about blinking - it uses MP, remember? Might as well just have fireballed them.)

Mp regen item egos wouldn't solve what I'm complaining about either, since that implies finding an item with that ego in the first place. Just like any kind of channeling (staff, Sif, sublimation) implies finding it.
Mana regeneration doesn't scale up with your degree of consumption of it at all, and even if it did you wouldn't have time to dance around a lich for six turns to iron shot it again.
I don't want it to be so high that you'd be at full mana except when you just spent it, but having it not be nonexistent unless you take a very lengthy rest after a couple of spells would be great.

evilmike wrote:
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Shooting fireballs at porcupines is faulty play. If you don't want to rest because you shot fireballs at porcupines, the solution is pretty simple. Don't shoot fireballs at porcupines. Memorizing spells does not make melee combat or bows impossible to use.

And yeah this is important too. Keep magic dart or something level 2 around if you are allergic to melee. Don't cast fireball on rats.

Well I'm talking about green rat packs here, and one green rat with 11 hp on average eats up 3 (mp) shots of magic dart on average - now make that 3*6 for a pack of green rats while they're biting you or 2*5 for two fireballs that kill them all.
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  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 17:03

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Putting aside the specifics,* as well as the question of how people should or shouldn't supposedly build their character, the problem and frustration that you are describing Bloax are the direct consequences of game play choices. If you choose a low HP species, train almost entirely blaster spells and dodging only, and worship the slow god, your tactical possibilities for how to engage a given set of enemies is going to be very narrow. And mostly you fights will involve hitting z* a lot and then resting up. I don't see how that is a design problem; strategic choices have meaningful consequences, that is as it should be.

(*Okay one quick word about the specifics: Even with Chei-slowness you can usually manage to only draw heat from a few enemies at a time, but if something goes awry and a large green rat pack is threatening to swarm you, just slouch 'em. Quieter than repeated castings of fireball and lower MP cost, and you don't even have to target it...)

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 17:14

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:MP management is far and away the most interesting aspect of using magic, and you want to directly, significantly reduce that.
I thought that the most interesting aspect of using magic is... USING it, not waiting to be able to use it again.
More seriously, the interesting part of MP management is keeping your fights optimal regarding mana usage, not spending time after the fight to regain this mana. I do not want to affect the first, I want to *reasonably* change the second. I leave it open for discussion on how far (and if at all) we can reduce post-fight resting.

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Shooting fireballs at porcupines is faulty play. If you don't want to rest because you shot fireballs at porcupines, the solution is pretty simple. Don't shoot fireballs at porcupines. Memorizing spells does not make melee combat or bows impossible to use.
If you don't want to read my post with understanding, the solution is pretty simple. If you don't want to add anything worthy to the discussion, the solution is pretty simple. In both cases please go away and do not write anything.

Lasty wrote:Bart, I still think the answer is that for a conjurations-focused character, you should treat losing mana as being similar to losing health: you didn't survive a fight unscathed if your mana is at 0; this is equivalent to a melee-focused character surviving a fight with barely any hp.[/qoute]Yes, I reached that point. That is why I want to have more impact on keeping this resource up.
Lasty wrote:Also, fwiw, your mana regen rate depends on the size of your mana pool, so you could achieve your goal to a limited extent by prioritizing staff of energy and rings of magical power. I'm not sure of the exact formula, but the learndb has this to say: "For reference, merely resting will recover 14+maxMP per 600 nutrition, at standard metabolic rates."

I am focusing on spellcasting to raise my MP as much as possible. I specifically stated that spellcasting is my highest skill. The results are very quickly diminishing. It is not even close to a solution.

Right now I am "forced" to follow evilmike's path (thank you, by the way, for constructive post), but as already said, this means relying on one of: staff of energy, sublimation or godly regain. I agree that each of them is sufficient on their own, but I would be very happy to have wider choice in this matter, especially considering that both staff of energy and sublimation are far from guaranteed and worshipping sif muna / vehumet for that reason is far from interesting.

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 18:08

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Kiku also used to be a somewhat stronger choice for that (guaranteed sublimation, and infinite supply of corpses if you want to use them instead of your HP). There were a couple games where that was a big factor in me choosing him, since I've always found sublimation more convenient than channeling. That changed after this stopped being a guaranteed thing though - I think now it's a 50% chance of getting that spell, which isn't a good enough reason (by itself) to pick him over one of the other "caster gods". Kiku is still good for lots of other reasons of course.
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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 18:20

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

The bleeding problem here is that Kiku is a 50/50 on getting the (arguably most interesting) way of recovering mp, while the only guaranteed sources of mp recovery is Sif (not a very fun god) or Vehumet (a rather plain god).
There's no room for taking gods like Ashenzari or Cheibriados unless you want to suffer the immensely boring recovery periods due to there not being a guaranteed form of mp recovery at hand.

And as you may have noticed I killed a dream caster due to how screamingly un-fun it was to play it. That's not cool.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 18:53

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

That thing with 6 AC and 70 HP is your "dream caster"?

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 19:47

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

and into wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I have made the suggestion several times to have Sif Muna enhance MP regeneration speed based on your piety level instead of whatever invokable thing Sif Muna is doing now.


Unless the MP regen enhancement were insanely high, this would be a major nerf to Sif that isn't needed. You get on average 1 MP per turn, at * piety (ignoring failure which is usually easy to eliminate). With 8 invocation that becomes 2 MP per turn on average. Even if Sif passively gave you 1 MP per turn at max piety I'd still consider that a nerf, part of what's great about Sif is that channeling is strong and you get it right off the bat.


I said enhance regeneration speed based on piety, not invocations; where are you pulling these arbitrary numbers from? Where did your arbitrary 1 MP/turn cap come from?
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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 19:56

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

XuaXua wrote:I said enhance regeneration speed based on piety, not invocations; where are you pulling these arbitrary numbers from? Where did your arbitrary 1 MP/turn cap come from?


Sorry should have been clearer. Channeling with Sif currently (starting at * piety) gives 1 MP/turn on average. That is with 0 invocations. With 8 invocations, channeling gets you 2 MP per turn (on average). Yes that is an active ability and comes with a hunger cost but nonetheless, practically speaking, you can get fast MP whenever you need it and still not run out of food. Again all this comes with Sif at * piety. So unless the passive MP regen that you suggested as a replacement were very high (greater than 2 MP per turn passively) then I would consider replacing channeling with a passive boost MP regeneration to be a severe nerf to Sif.
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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 20:23

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

I'm not entirely sure there's a problem either, since I've just sort of gotten in the habit of hitting 5 once after every fight and thus never have any trouble with this at all, but if we wanted to do something my suggestion would be accelerating regen rates; i.e. after X turns without spending any MP or being attacked, your regen rate starts to increase without bound until you're full. X would be, like, 20ish -- high enough that this isn't really meaningful tactically, but far enough below 100 turns that one 5 will always fill you up unless you get interrupted.

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 20:33

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

ontoclasm wrote:I'm not entirely sure there's a problem either, since I've just sort of gotten in the habit of hitting 5 once after every fight and thus never have any trouble with this at all, but if we wanted to do something my suggestion would be accelerating regen rates; i.e. after X turns without spending any MP or being attacked, your regen rate starts to increase without bound until you're full. X would be, like, 20ish -- high enough that this isn't really meaningful tactically, but far enough below 100 turns that one 5 will always fill you up unless you get interrupted.


This would be a player buff, as you get a pseudo regen spell that kicks in after ~20 turns of inactivity, and this does mean you would be at a lot less risk during regeneration after getting your health/MP knocked low but surviving a tough fight. Still, if implemented well, probably the only really significant change in game difficulty would be the Abyss; that might not be a bad thing. If so you could disable this effect while players are in the abyss. Also, if you want, the point at which it starts ramping up could be randomized within certain bounds, which would make it go from "hard and really silly to plan out some niche tactical use" to "almost completely non-tactical."
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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 21:00

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

and into wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I said enhance regeneration speed based on piety, not invocations; where are you pulling these arbitrary numbers from? Where did your arbitrary 1 MP/turn cap come from?


Sorry should have been clearer. Channeling with Sif currently (starting at * piety) gives 1 MP/turn on average. That is with 0 invocations. With 8 invocations, channeling gets you 2 MP per turn (on average). Yes that is an active ability and comes with a hunger cost but nonetheless, practically speaking, you can get fast MP whenever you need it and still not run out of food. Again all this comes with Sif at * piety. So unless the passive MP regen that you suggested as a replacement were very high (greater than 2 MP per turn passively) then I would consider replacing channeling with a passive boost MP regeneration to be a severe nerf to Sif.


I'd base it directly on piety with no hunger cost as a passive ability that slowly drains piety per MP re-gained. This would replace any existing continual piety reduction.

***** (5 piety), get 5 MP/turn (piety gain per turn increased by 500%)
and reduce proportionally.
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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 22:00

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

ontoclasm wrote:I'm not entirely sure there's a problem either, since I've just sort of gotten in the habit of hitting 5 once after every fight and thus never have any trouble with this at all, but if we wanted to do something my suggestion would be accelerating regen rates; i.e. after X turns without spending any MP or being attacked, your regen rate starts to increase without bound until you're full. X would be, like, 20ish -- high enough that this isn't really meaningful tactically, but far enough below 100 turns that one 5 will always fill you up unless you get interrupted.

Alternatively you could just have mana regeneration regenerate follow a little exponential scheme: mp = oldmp+((14+maxmp)/200)*1.09^(AutSinceLastMpUse/10)
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  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 03:45

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

God abilities are powerful and often have costs that are less immediately replaceable than MP. You use them when you need them, but not otherwise.
Melee works every turn. You use it as bread and butter damage.
Spells occupy an annoying middle ground. You often use them as bread and butter abilities but with waiting and hunger attached, which is mostly just annoying.
It's kind of poor game design. It might be better if MP worked a little more like piety --- regen with something other than time and spells being more powerful to compensate. It'd make for better gameplay, I think, with the added benefit of destroying the illusion that pure mages are supposed to be viable.
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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 04:02

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Pure mages are and have always been viable. You need the proper equipment or deity powers, and you need to invest xp in it, but you can do it and it can be strong. Sometimes the RNG decrees that you won't get the stuff you need for the build in time, and that's fine. In such a case you just need to be a little bit flexible, maybe hybridize just the tiniest bit, and you're still fine. It happens with melee builds, too; sometimes the RNG doesn't decide to drop exactly what you wanted for you, so you fight in a slightly different manner that is actually just as good as your original plan but you got this other good stuff instead of what you were hoping for.

No, you shouldn't plan from turn 1 to treat all melee weapons as radioactive. It's actually quite fine that you can't make that plan and have it turn out perfectly in every single game. The whole game is all about adapting to the circumstances the RNG creates for you.

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 04:19

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

the illusion that pure mages are supposed to be viable.

Pure mages are "viable", they just have to rest a lot. Just like pure melee characters are "viable", except for where they have to do a bunch of dumb crap instead of just blasting that fool from across the screen. Crawl's design encourages every character to be a hybrid and you should not be trying to change the rules of crawl just because they don't fit in with your self-imposed challenges.

I thought that the most interesting aspect of using magic is... USING it, not waiting to be able to use it again.

You were mistaken. Waiting to be able to use it again is the defining trait of magic in Crawl.

More seriously, the interesting part of MP management is keeping your fights optimal regarding mana usage

Shooting LCS at a rat is not optimal and making it optimal would have a horrible effect on the game, even if it was miraculously made "balanced" (which would basically require redesigning all magic).

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 08:51

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Pure fighters potentially do not have to rest or have access to regeneration to seriously minimize 'resting' part of game. Somebody suggested here that melee tends to kill more slowly than spells and that's a part I agree with. Therefore I see a good reason to not straightforwardly remove mana regeneration necessity, yet I also never suggested to remove it completely.

@TheDefiniteArticle, I ask kindly once more - could you read my post before responding to it? I am talking about characters who are mostly conjurers with supportive melee skills and no, they do not kill rats with LCS. This is getting more and more silly. Are you going to suggest next time that as conjurers we cast tornado, then firestorm to kill a single rat?

Your first post said that waiting to use magic is the most interesting aspect. This is definitely not an interesting part. While in terms of turn count mana management defines magic, this magic is primarily defined by the ability to effectively kill/support character in combat. If I can use magic almost as effectively as possible, reaching spellpower close to max and having no trouble dealing with enemies, I want to have impact on the secondary effect and I shift my strategy towards it. It naturally leads to either training weapon (which might be optimal, sure!) or finding a way to restore mana. I make here actually a feature request: please expand "efficient mana restoring" category, either discretely through increased regeneration or directly by having mana regen ego items. I make this request not because conjurers are unplayable, but because I would like to have more strategies available, which I feel are limited now.

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 08:58

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

I think what people are trying to say that buffing suboptimal pure caster builds by increased MP regeneration speed will also buff spellcasting characters built without complete disregard for melee combat, who currently don't need a buff at all.

Though I am not sure how big of a buff that would even be.
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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 09:25

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

How to implement it:
  • Create new entry "RING_MANA_REGENERATION" in jewellery_type enum.
  • Bonus can be taken into account with X * you.wearing(EQ_RINGS, RING_MANA_REGENERATION) in the function _regenerate_hp_and_mp in player-reacts.cc
Also make this new ring spawn somehow. Looks pretty easy to put into the code. However I have no idea how strong the bonus (X in the formula above) should be...

---

Regarding the discussion: I agree with Bart and Bloax. It is pretty easy to play a melee-focused character in a way that resting is almost completely superfluous. An equivalent playstyle is not possible for magic-focused characters. I don't think mana regen would buff hybrids that much. They cast their few support spells and and have no use for the additional mana anyway.

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 09:36

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Why do you assume I was talking about characters who don't cast Conjurations?

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 12:31

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

So what even is the problem with MP regeneration? Bloax complains that having to rest is so boring that he killed a character because of it. Bart complains that characters that try to damage monsters using only spells get a higher turncount. Did I get that right? Is there anything else?

If I did understand these perceived problems correctly, why is anyone even still talking about this? The "resting is boring" thing is a minor interface issue at most, it's just one extra keypress that you can get around by using a macro if you want. And how fast MP regenerates has almost nothing to do with this because you still have to press 5 to get your MP back even if they regen faster. Regarding resting taking turns, having some downtime after using lots of spells is an intentional balancing mechanism to compensate for magic generally making fights much safer. Plus, if you care about turncount and score, you will always have to figure out what works best to optimize those and do it. Not every possible character build can be optimal or even near optimal for this. And that ways to get around this downtime exist but are not guaranteed (well, Sif and Veh actually are) is to be expected in a randomized game.

Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 12:53

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

Tedronai wrote:Regarding the discussion: I agree with Bart and Bloax. It is pretty easy to play a melee-focused character in a way that resting is almost completely superfluous. An equivalent playstyle is not possible for magic-focused characters. I don't think mana regen would buff hybrids that much. They cast their few support spells and and have no use for the additional mana anyway.


I disagree, in that I've played many characters who have strong conjurations and also some melee ability who do not need to rest very often. These characters tend to be quite good at avoiding resting because they can pick the most hp/mp efficient method to dispose of their enemies; doing so minimizes the number of turns of rest needed after each encounter. If the character is built well and played well, you generally can get all the resting you need after most fights by just auto-exploring.

As others have pointed out, there are already quite a large number of ways to more quickly recover both HP and MP. The exact number of each is pretty similar.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 14:52

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

I think that the whole discussion is based on a wrong assumption - that we do not know how to effectively deal with low MP. There are ways of doing that, but I suggest that instead of referring to them, giving players another way to deal with slow mana regeneration would open possibilities to build interesting/efficient characters in a way it is not possible right now.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 15:50

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

I can easily deal with low MP, it's just that anything that isn't "spam channeling" (which is still boring, especially with Sif) or "be lucky to find sublimation" is so boring I killed the best caster I'll probably ever have.
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  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 21:48

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

imho removing the deminishing returns on mana would be an elegant solution. You could pick a high mana race, wield a staff of power, and have 70 mana, which comes with a much higher mana regeneration rate.

But ultimately I don't think this is a big enough problem to justify most of the proposed solutions. The final arrangement would be worse than what we have now. Magic is stronger than melee with the downside of not always being available; it's quite well balanced imho, although I think the increased real time it takes to fight with spells vs holding tab makes melee more popular.

Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 18th April 2014, 20:24

Re: Mp regeneration needs a serious buff

People keep stating that offensive magic is stronger than melee, but that isn't so clear to me. That might just be an assumption brought in from other games.

The best thing about magic it is that it's usually AOE, but numbers can be overcome with careful positioning. Most offensive spells don't seem to vastly outshine a good mindelay weapon against a single target, especially keeping in mind that even a slow weapon hits almost 50% more often than a spell. The range on most spells is of course nice, but similarly, they don't seem to outshine a good longbow.
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