The Tavern

Merfolk. I'm going with the chain, but I feel like I'm taking more damage.

That's because the chain gives you less AC and less EV.

duvessa wrote:That's because the chain gives you less AC and less EV.

Stick with it?

I my only other source of rF is a plain ring, which takes a slot away from the +3/+4 slaying ring and the +3 damage with +rC, +MR +rN +Stealth ring.

I'd say it depends on where you are. The rElec is far more important in Lom Lobon's Pan and Zot:5 than anything else; the rF...well if you don't have rF- and you aren't in a volcano or Gehenna, or (to a lesser extent) the Snake Pit or Depths (Salamanders); you are mostly fine, I mean there's a chance most spellcasters may have fire (they also may not; most of them have a long list of possible spells so trying to have your bases covered is good. Personally, especially if Dodging heavy and using real spells...I'd say the PDA is better. If you really need it; disperse with the slaying, I guess?

I'm sorry, but if you have a +7 Pearl Dragon Armor and the aptitudes to use it and you're choosing to stick with chainmail instead (even artifact chainmail) then you're making a mistake.

Incidentally, in case you're curious...

+7 PDA = 17 AC and a -11 encumbrance
+8 Chain = 16 AC and a -15 encumbrance

So it is only a little bit better, but better nonetheless.

What about the GDR and optimal Armour skill investment?

If you are using a bardiche, drop that slaying ring and never pick up again.

Sandman25 wrote:If you are using a bardiche, drop that slaying ring and never pick up again.

How come? Not enough slaying to be worth it?

ignore anyone who ever tells you to drop a positive slaying ring

I recommend the chain even though you will take slightly more damage generally, because rF is highly valuable in Zot, and rElec is no slouch either.

XuaXua wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:If you are using a bardiche, drop that slaying ring and never pick up again.

How come? Not enough slaying to be worth it?

Yes, it's better to have AC +2 and EV +3 instead of damage +10% IMHO.

ignore anyone who ever tells you to wear a positive slaying ring no matter what.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0 (tiles) character file. MfFi the Phalangite (Merfolk Fighter) Turns: 131, Time: 00:04:02 HP 106/172 AC 21 Str 19 XL: 20 Next: 0% MP 19/19 EV 15 Int 8 God: No God 0 (0) Gold 0 SH 0 Dex 13 Spells: 0 memorised, 19 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis . f - +6 bardiche (flame) rCold . . . Clarity . g - +8 chain mail rNeg . . . Conserve . (no shield) rPois . rCorr . (no helmet) rElec . rRot . (no cloak) SustAb . . Spirit . (no gloves) rMut . Warding . (no boots) Saprov . . . Stasis . (no amulet) MR +.... (no ring) i - +3,+4 ring of slaying Skills: + Level 18.7 Fighting + Level 22.9 Polearms + Level 13.9 Armour - Level 20.0 Dodging Level 17.4 Shields Polearms | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam 0 | 20.2 | 63 | 77% | 15.6 | 200 | 0.50 | 7.8 1 | 20.5 | 62 | 77% | 15.9 | 195 | 0.51 | 8.2 2 | 20.4 | 60 | 76% | 15.6 | 190 | 0.53 | 8.2 3 | 20.8 | 65 | 76% | 16.0 | 185 | 0.54 | 8.6 4 | 21.3 | 65 | 78% | 16.7 | 180 | 0.56 | 9.3 5 | 21.4 | 67 | 77% | 16.7 | 175 | 0.57 | 9.5 6 | 21.3 | 65 | 79% | 16.9 | 170 | 0.59 | 9.9 7 | 21.9 | 69 | 78% | 17.3 | 165 | 0.61 | 10.5 8 | 22.5 | 70 | 80% | 18.1 | 160 | 0.63 | 11.3 9 | 22.8 | 79 | 78% | 18.0 | 155 | 0.65 | 11.6 10 | 22.5 | 70 | 79% | 17.8 | 150 | 0.67 | 11.8 11 | 23.5 | 84 | 78% | 18.5 | 145 | 0.69 | 12.8 12 | 23.4 | 75 | 79% | 18.6 | 140 | 0.71 | 13.3 13 | 23.6 | 74 | 80% | 18.9 | 135 | 0.74 | 14.0 14 | 24.3 | 76 | 79% | 19.3 | 130 | 0.77 | 14.9 15 | 24.5 | 83 | 80% | 19.7 | 125 | 0.80 | 15.7 16 | 25.6 | 87 | 81% | 20.9 | 120 | 0.83 | 17.4 17 | 25.6 | 86 | 80% | 20.7 | 115 | 0.87 | 18.0 18 | 25.6 | 87 | 79% | 20.3 | 110 | 0.91 | 18.4 19 | 26.5 | 84 | 80% | 21.4 | 105 | 0.95 | 20.4 20 | 26.5 | 88 | 81% | 21.6 | 100 | 1.00 | 21.6 21 | 26.7 | 93 | 80% | 21.5 | 95 | 1.05 | 22.7 22 | 27.3 | 95 | 82% | 22.4 | 90 | 1.11 | 24.9 23 | 27.5 | 95 | 81% | 22.4 | 85 | 1.18 | 26.4 24 | 27.1 | 103 | 82% | 22.3 | 80 | 1.25 | 27.8 25 | 27.9 | 98 | 81% | 22.8 | 75 | 1.33 | 30.4 26 | 27.7 | 110 | 82% | 22.9 | 70 | 1.43 | 32.6 27 | 28.5 | 109 | 81% | 23.2 | 70 | 1.43 | 33.2

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0 (tiles) character file. MfFi the Phalangite (Merfolk Fighter) Turns: 151, Time: 00:04:20 HP 114/172 AC 23 Str 19 XL: 20 Next: 0% MP 19/19 EV 18 Int 8 God: No God 0 (0) Gold 0 SH 0 Dex 13 Spells: 0 memorised, 19 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis . f - +6 bardiche (flame) rCold . . . Clarity . h - +7 pearl dragon armour rNeg + . . Conserve . (no shield) rPois . rCorr . (no helmet) rElec . rRot . (no cloak) SustAb . . Spirit . (no gloves) rMut . Warding . (no boots) Saprov . . . Stasis . (no amulet) MR +.... (no ring) (no ring) Skills: + Level 18.7 Fighting + Level 22.9 Polearms + Level 13.9 Armour - Level 20.0 Dodging Level 17.4 Shields Polearms | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam 0 | 18.1 | 55 | 75% | 13.7 | 200 | 0.50 | 6.8 1 | 17.8 | 54 | 75% | 13.4 | 195 | 0.51 | 6.9 2 | 17.9 | 56 | 74% | 13.3 | 190 | 0.53 | 7.0 3 | 18.1 | 63 | 76% | 13.9 | 185 | 0.54 | 7.5 4 | 18.3 | 61 | 77% | 14.2 | 180 | 0.56 | 7.9 5 | 18.6 | 60 | 77% | 14.5 | 175 | 0.57 | 8.3 6 | 19.5 | 65 | 76% | 15.0 | 170 | 0.59 | 8.8 7 | 19.7 | 61 | 76% | 15.0 | 165 | 0.61 | 9.1 8 | 19.6 | 69 | 76% | 15.0 | 160 | 0.63 | 9.4 9 | 19.9 | 71 | 77% | 15.5 | 155 | 0.65 | 10.0 10 | 19.9 | 72 | 78% | 15.7 | 150 | 0.67 | 10.5 11 | 20.9 | 65 | 77% | 16.1 | 145 | 0.69 | 11.1 12 | 21.1 | 76 | 78% | 16.6 | 140 | 0.71 | 11.9 13 | 21.3 | 77 | 77% | 16.5 | 135 | 0.74 | 12.3 14 | 21.9 | 89 | 77% | 17.1 | 130 | 0.77 | 13.1 15 | 22.3 | 84 | 79% | 17.6 | 125 | 0.80 | 14.1 16 | 22.1 | 82 | 79% | 17.5 | 120 | 0.83 | 14.6 17 | 22.5 | 77 | 79% | 18.0 | 115 | 0.87 | 15.6 18 | 22.9 | 86 | 79% | 18.2 | 110 | 0.91 | 16.5 19 | 23.6 | 89 | 80% | 18.9 | 105 | 0.95 | 18.0 20 | 24.1 | 91 | 81% | 19.6 | 100 | 1.00 | 19.6 21 | 24.1 | 91 | 78% | 19.0 | 95 | 1.05 | 20.0 22 | 25.0 | 92 | 79% | 20.0 | 90 | 1.11 | 22.2 23 | 24.7 | 100 | 81% | 20.2 | 85 | 1.17 | 23.8 24 | 25.1 | 88 | 80% | 20.2 | 80 | 1.25 | 25.2 25 | 25.0 | 96 | 81% | 20.4 | 75 | 1.33 | 27.2 26 | 25.5 | 90 | 80% | 20.6 | 70 | 1.43 | 29.5 27 | 26.2 | 104 | 82% | 21.6 | 70 | 1.43 | 30.9

So it's 10% more damage instead of +2AC and +3EV at Armour 13.9 and Dodging 20.0

rF+ does absolutely nothing against most monsters (because most monsters don't have any fire damage), and for the few that do, that ring is all you need to get the job done. I would wear the PDA and slaying rings, and ring swap when the resist is needed.

Sandman25 wrote:ignore anyone who ever tells you to wear a positive slaying ring no matter what.

Well, that's not entirely fair. A ring of slaying can be very good item if you get a good one early on. I had one character who found a +4/+7 (or something like that) ring of slaying early on (somewhere around Dungeon:3, IIRC) and instantly went from struggling to survive to obliterating everything.

That said, the ring stopped being quite as important by the time I was into the mid to late game. By the time I was into the lower dungeon I had good enough weapons that the few extra plusses didn't matter as much. Still, early on it was really useful.

Knight9910 wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:ignore anyone who ever tells you to wear a positive slaying ring no matter what.

Well, that's not entirely fair. A ring of slaying can be very good item if you get a good one early on. I had one character who found a +4/+7 (or something like that) ring of slaying early on (somewhere around Dungeon:3, IIRC) and instantly went from struggling to survive to obliterating everything.

That said, the ring stopped being quite as important by the time I was into the mid to late game. By the time I was into the lower dungeon I had good enough weapons that the few extra plusses didn't matter as much. Still, early on it was really useful.

I am not sure I was understood properly. I suggest to carefully analyze current situation before using any item, including ring of slaying. There can be situations when wearing such ring is suboptimal. It is true even for some really OP items like ring of robustness, shaolin and slaying 0,+9.

Sandman25 wrote:I am not sure I was understood properly. I suggest to carefully analyze current situation before using any item, including ring of slaying. There can be situations when wearing such ring is suboptimal. It is true even for some really OP items like ring of robustness, shaolin and slaying 0,+9.

Fair enough. Like the other guy mentioned, a ring of rF+ might be good, but not if you're fighting enemies that don't use fire.

Ring of slaying +7 is an endgame quality item.

XuaXua wrote:What about the GDR and optimal Armour skill investment?

PDA has higher base AC than chain mail, which means that it has higher GDR (not that it matters much) and gets more bonus AC from armour skill. There is no magic number for training armour skill.

XuaXua wrote:What about the GDR and optimal Armour skill investment?

The general consensus seems to be that it's never worth considering GDR when deciding on equipment, because the right decision when you ignore GDR is basically always the same as the right decision when you take GDR into account. Some say that thinking too much about GDR leads to more wrong decisions than right ones.

I'd generally prefer to leave on stuff that is most helpful against everything, and (with jewelry) swap in when I need rF or rC. So I'd stick with the slaying rings, all the way. Swap one out when you need the rF, and I think you said your other ring covers one pip of rC already.

The armors are pretty close and you would do well in either. The PDA will offer better protection and you can enchant it up to +10, you'll also get better returns on your armor skill and have less encumbrance to overcome. I'd favor the PDA, however they are close enough that if you really want the resistances, going with the chain would still be reasonable play.

You get (base AC/22) * armor skill in bonus AC, that's one of the very few formulas in DCSS worth knowing (IMO). So assuming you have all the other slots filled in you'll get an extra AC for just less than 1.6 levels in armor skill with the PDA, or for just more than 1.8 levels in armor with the chain.

Well, that's not entirely fair. A ring of slaying can be very good item if you get a good one early on.

A decent ring of slaying is the best non-artefact ring you will ever get. Sandman wants to reduce every aspect of crawl to mathematics and yet doesn't understand the mathematical concept that increasing your fsim numbers by 10% is not equivalent to increasing your damage output by 10%. It's that sort of shortsighted analysis that makes much of his advice questionable.

Fair enough. Like the other guy mentioned, a ring of rF+ might be good, but not if you're fighting enemies that don't use fire.

The difference is that every single enemy in the game dies to rings of slaying (and very much the same sentiment applies to AC/EV). Situations where taking off Shoalin is the right move are uncommon to say the least.

I'd generally prefer to leave on stuff that is most helpful against everything, and (with jewelry) swap in

Personally I just don't like swapping. :mrgreen:

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Sandman wants to reduce every aspect of crawl to mathematics and yet doesn't understand the mathematical concept that increasing your fsim numbers by 10% is not equivalent to increasing your damage output by 10%. It's that sort of shortsighted analysis that makes much of his advice questionable.

Yes, Sandman wants to reduce everything to mathematics because mathematics tells you that you don't need +4 ring of slaying that much when you get 90 as max damage at Polearm 26.

Use them both, in different situations, and transition to PDA full time later on. Individual play style determines a lot.

Overall I would agree with and_into that wearing the PDA and switching rings for rF+ as needed is the right choice. Having more EV/AC will help you against everything you fight, whereas having rF+/rElec will only help against a minute subset of the things you fight. Also, wearing the PDA means less XP invested in magic to get the success rates you're aiming for.

You can always switch back to the chainmail if you find that you need to enter an area that has more fire/electricity than you would like to deal with.

As for the discussion/quagmire of "is slaying worth it?", the answer is yes, but definitely not always. Sandman25 and TheDefiniteArticle are both doing (IMO) a bad job of giving good advice, but they both have points: Slaying helps you fight any monster, but small amounts of slaying aren't always as good as other options. In this case, +3/+4 slaying is a perfectly good ring, but it's not so incredible that you shouldn't replace it with a rF+ when a fire giant comes into view. Slaying w/ melee weapons is analogous to having the same amount of extra damage enchantment on whichever weapon you're wielding. Slaying gains in value if your weapon is fast or if you have auxiliary attacks that can also take advantage of the bonus.

Sandman25 wrote:Yes, Sandman wants to reduce everything to mathematics because mathematics tells you that you don't need +4 ring of slaying that much when you get 90 as max damage at Polearm 26.

It only tells you that when you ignore literally dozens of variables.

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Yes, Sandman wants to reduce everything to mathematics because mathematics tells you that you don't need +4 ring of slaying that much when you get 90 as max damage at Polearm 26.

It only tells you that when you ignore literally dozens of variables.

It is widely known that you don't need any math to win crawl and fortunately it is true. I am not terrible at math, I am just bad, I was in top 3 in my school at age 17 but it was too many years ago

How do you estimate likeliness that the +10% damage will kill the monster one action earlier?

@Lasty

Maybe my advice is bad but I seriously prefer to have AC+2 and EV+3 instead of +10% damage. Perhaps because defense is more important for me, it really helps when escaping especially when attacked by multiple monsters. I am not talking about extended here of course.

Sandman25 wrote:Maybe my advice is bad but I seriously prefer to have AC+2 and EV+3 instead of +10% damage. Perhaps because defense is more important for me, it really helps when escaping especially when attacked by multiple monsters. I am not talking about extended here of course.

This is a false dichotomy here, since he can have both and just swap to rF when he really needs it (and merfolk are tough enough that that doesn't even happen so often).

wheals wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Maybe my advice is bad but I seriously prefer to have AC+2 and EV+3 instead of +10% damage. Perhaps because defense is more important for me, it really helps when escaping especially when attacked by multiple monsters. I am not talking about extended here of course.

This is a false dichotomy here, since he can have both and just swap to rF when he really needs it (and merfolk are tough enough that that doesn't even happen so often).

I am ignoring rF+ bonus, I am talking about AC+2 and EV+3 only, which can be about AC+(6-7) and EV+(3-4) at fully enchanted PDA and higher Armour. They are better than +10% damage for me (with bardiche).

Maybe I'm confused, but what does the slaying ring have to do with the choice of armour (and thus the AC/EV bonus) here?

archaeo wrote:Maybe I'm confused, but what does the slaying ring have to do with the choice of armour (and thus the AC/EV bonus) here?

People suggested to wear chain armour in order to free a slot for slaying.

Sandman25 wrote:
archaeo wrote:Maybe I'm confused, but what does the slaying ring have to do with the choice of armour (and thus the AC/EV bonus) here?

People suggested to wear chain armour in order to free a slot for slaying.

I think and_into and I already pointed out how that is not a good suggestion...

Sandman25 wrote:
archaeo wrote:Maybe I'm confused, but what does the slaying ring have to do with the choice of armour (and thus the AC/EV bonus) here?

People suggested to wear chain armour in order to free a slot for slaying.

the only person who suggested that is xuaxua

Ok, sorry then.

The Tavern

PDA +7 or +8 Chain rElec +rF ?

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