Shoals Surfer
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Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.
Shoals Surfer
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Slime Squisher
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Dungeon Master
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Slime Squisher
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Lasty wrote:. . . or you randomly get one extra step away and escape up the staircase/through the door when you thought you were toast. Whichever.
Vestibule Violator
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:also random energy doesn't actually fix kiting in any real way: you still kite like the old days, it just gets cut short now, because the ogre randomly gets an extra move and kills you halfway through the process
Dungeon Master
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:examples of random energy screwing me
Halls Hopper
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Blades Runner
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Slime Squisher
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People in this thread are acting like randomized energy gives monsters a predictable gain in speed over time.
Lasty wrote:In the ogre example, the ogre cannot catch up to you and swing without the two of you taking at least 20 steps (more likely 25ish), and on every single one of those steps rolling the 1/3 chance of gaining energy instead of the 1/3 each chances of losing energy or having normal energy. The odds of this ogre catching you over an arbitrarily long distance are worse than flipping heads 25 times in a row on a fair coin; the odds of it happening on a reasonable timescale are much lower.
This example couldn't have happened unless either there's a detail you're forgetting or there was a bug w/ movespeed at the time.
Blades Runner
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Pandemonium Purger
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Tomb Titivator
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Patashu wrote:In the interest of informed public discourse, I have created a 'Will the ogre bonk you on the head before you can escape?' calculator. It is available as a jsfiddle: http://jsfiddle.net/BfET5/ (Press the 'run' button to make it appear, I don't know why it doesn't show up right away)
It produces scientifically rigorous and peer checked results automatically such as:
Let me know if the algorithm is wrong.
Pandemonium Purger
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tedric wrote:Patashu wrote:In the interest of informed public discourse, I have created a 'Will the ogre bonk you on the head before you can escape?' calculator. It is available as a jsfiddle: http://jsfiddle.net/BfET5/ (Press the 'run' button to make it appear, I don't know why it doesn't show up right away)
It produces scientifically rigorous and peer checked results automatically such as:
Let me know if the algorithm is wrong.
I don't know what's wrong, but I feel like it can't be right. For very reasonable real-world values like 20 auts/50 tiles, I'm getting an average of less than 0.1% bonks (to avoid confusion with decimals and percentages: that's less than one tenth of one percent, or less that 1 bonk in a thousand trials). Anecdotal evidence from my own experience says I get bonked much more often than that.
Tomb Titivator
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Pandemonium Purger
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Slime Squisher
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Igxfl wrote:It's completely deterministic. It's also fiddly and horrible because of that.
If Crawl's current design is encouraging *too much* paranoia and running, which it very well might, the solution is not allowing deterministic ways to carefully stay one move from being damaged. The solution is to penalize overly paranoid behavior a little more, because forcing risky decisions makes for more interesting gameplay.
Tomb Titivator
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Patashu wrote:Are the assumptions in this version 2 correct? (again, press run once to make it show up) http://jsfiddle.net/BfET5/1/
I haven't accounted for stair delay yet - does it mean that, for example, if I reach the stairs with the ogre 13 auts away and hit <, the ogre will bonk me but not follow me? If so, I need to make a perfect trial > 13, not > 10.
Also, what does 'stairs take 13-14 auts' mean? Does it mean 50/50 chance? 33/66 chance? Is it worth a sourcedive?
Pandemonium Purger
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Dungeon Master
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night.
Barkeep
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duvessa wrote:in the cases where you do intend to fight a speed 10 monster, it is optimal to move away from it until it is next to you, because that minimizes the number of actions it gets; previously you could just wait.
Shoals Surfer
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Ziggurat Zagger
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duvessa wrote:This is why, in my first post in this thread, I stated that it does nothing to combat pillar dancing, except in the single case of orc priests. Other monsters either:
1. are speed 10, do not have ranged attacks or a means of becoming not (effectively) speed 10. Can be "pillar danced" in almost exactly the same way with or without energy randomization, you just use 1 more wall tile as part of the "pillar".
Halls Hopper
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Sandman25 wrote:I don't understand. I am a caster on D1, there is a lucky goblin who refused to die and made me have 1 HP and 0 MP.
1) Without energy randomization: I safely pillar dance for full HP and MP, then try to kill the goblin again. If I fail, I can repeat unlimited number of times (assuming no other monsters generate).
Crypt Cleanser
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Halls Hopper
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mikee wrote:(Don't forget that monsters do not spawn adjacent to you.)
mikee wrote:You're still discouraged to get into that situation.
Slime Squisher
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Ziggurat Zagger
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:You obviously start pillar dancing before you are at 1 HP to begin with. Why on earth are you waiting to use optimal behavior until after you get hit in the face? Or are you telling me that the purpose of random energy is to stop BAD players from pillar dancing? (that explanation actually kinda-sorta makes sense if I squint real hard)
Your other example does not even TRY to address my concerns. All you've done is restate the problem another way: In the best possible scenario for random energy, all it is doing is raising the minimum amount of HP necessary to pillar dance, not actually deterring the behavior. And obviously your scenario is a wacky ideal world of frictionless surfaces that no doubt made a physics teacher somewhere quiver.
Temple Termagant
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Pandemonium Purger
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Jeff wrote:Just came back to Crawl after a 5-year layoff. I really like most of the changes, but random energy is one of the worst dcss design decisions ever imo. All it does is create random early game deaths and force even more conservative behaviour because you can't run away reliably.
Temple Termagant
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Patashu wrote:Jeff wrote:Just came back to Crawl after a 5-year layoff. I really like most of the changes, but random energy is one of the worst dcss design decisions ever imo. All it does is create random early game deaths and force even more conservative behaviour because you can't run away reliably.
Check out the calculator I made in an earlier post in this topic - unless you play extremely unconservatively and the next doublemove will kill you, you can run away from things just fine.
Tomb Titivator
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Crypt Cleanser
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Jeff wrote:In the early game it's very easy to be in situations where a double move can kill you.
Temple Termagant
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Wahaha wrote:A situation that is unfair is if an ogre appears 1 tile away from you and as you move to the stairs it moves adjacent to you. But this is rare, and doesn't always lead to a death because you can just keep walking away until the ogre loses energy or hits you once and falls 1 tile behind. So I'm wondering what kind of situation you're thinking of. I think there is very little difference between energy randomization and no ER either way.
Halls Hopper
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Crypt Cleanser
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Crypt Cleanser
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fisheye wrote:As a new player who has never played crawl without energy randomization, one of the benefits of energy randomization is pedagogical - you get to learn really early on that planning on doing extended pillardancing simply doesn't work if you have the same speed as the enemy and they're too close. Once you get that beaten into you by losing characters to randomization, it changes your tactical perception somewhat.
Without randomization, pillardancing would actually be quite effective in the early game, and then you'd have to break that bad habit in the mid or late game if you ever want to ascend a character, which would make the game harder to learn (although easier to play).
Temple Termagant
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mikee wrote:Hi, Jeff. Nice to see you again.
Ziggurat Zagger
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mikee wrote:But also I don't think that it's possible to effectively discuss randomized energy on tavern. As can be seen in this and every other thread on it, it has a lot of effects that many people don't realize and aren't aware that they don't realize. And discussions like this one tend to get bogged down in different details that different people think are essential to randomized energy.
Temple Termagant
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Mines Malingerer
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Snake Sneak
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starhawk wrote:Energy randomisation definitely doesn't make getting Abyssed any easier. Aaargh.
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