Super batty question: Fighting vs unarmed?

[Tiktacy]

I'm currently attempting the crazy batty challenge(playing only as a bat) and was wondering what is better to raise to improve my combat skills: fighting or unarmed?

I am aware that fighting impacts damage, but I can't remember if it is at a flat rate or not. And if so, would training unarmed be better?

Obviously, training fighting in general will be better since it also raises hp, but I'm just curious if it's worth training unarmed AT ALL. Any advice is welcome, even if not directly answering my question.

Edit: I am aware unarmed combat will improve damage output for 99.99-100% of characters! but I am wondering how much it will impact my damage in bat form.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

To increase your damage output UC will be ridiculously better than fighting.

[Tiktacy]

To increase your damage output UC will be ridiculously better than fighting.

Really? Even for bats? They have much greater benefits from slaying since their base damage is absurdly low, so I guess I assumed maybe fighting might be better since i was under the impression it gave pseudo-slaying bonuses.

[duvessa]

Good god, where did you get that idea? Is this something from the wiki?

Fighting has the same effect as weapon skill on accuracy (this is actually quite important) and multiplies mainhand melee damage by 1+1d(skill level)/30, aux attack damage by 1+1d(skill level)/40. For comparison, melee weapon skill is 1+1d(skill level)/25. These stack multiplicatively with each other (and with brands!), so the effect is a bit bigger than it might intuitively sound.

Unarmed combat skill increases base damage by 1 per level, reduces delay by 0.18185185... aut per level, and if I recall correctly, has the same effect on accuracy as fighting/weapon skill.

[bcadren]

Vampire Bat's UC:
(2 + UC/5) x (1 + 1dFighting/30) [Vampiric]

So your UC is a little less than a 5th of a normal characters with the same UC value.
But since fighting is a percentage based boost; you have to already have good UC for it to do anything.
27 Fighting, no UC is only 4 damage.
25 UC, no Fighting is 7 damage. (no point going above 25 for a bat).
27 in both is 14.

That said, on a 'normal' character:
27 UC is 30 Dam.
27 Fighting is 6 Dam.
27 Both is 56 Dam.

But...yes UC is still more important most the time; just Fighting becomes better for the XP cost when UC is already high.

[Tiktacy]

Good god, where did you get that idea? Is this something from the wiki?

Fighting has the same effect as weapon skill on accuracy (this is actually quite important) and multiplies mainhand melee damage by 1+1d(skill level)/30, aux attack damage by 1+1d(skill level)/40. For comparison, melee weapon skill is 1+1d(skill level)/25. These stack multiplicatively with each other (and with brands!), so the effect is a bit bigger than it might intuitively sound.

Unarmed combat skill increases base damage by 1 per level, reduces delay by 0.18185185... aut per level, and if I recall correctly, has the same effect on accuracy as fighting/weapon skill.

Funny thing, I thought I remember hearing it from you haha. But oh well, thanks for the help.

My next question is this: is it even worth investing in unarmed anyway or should I just focus on invocations for more powerful spells as my offense?

[bcadren]

My next question is this: is it even worth investing in unarmed anyway or should I just focus on invocations for more powerful spells as my offense?

Makhbats? Pretty much, yes.
However, I'm really not sure if there's a point where training Invo doesn't have a point anymore...like a spellpower cap.

I will reiterate that at very least bat UC attack is 1/5th of normal power. The Delay boost is still relevant though.

[Tiktacy]

My next question is this: is it even worth investing in unarmed anyway or should I just focus on invocations for more powerful spells as my offense?

Makhbats? Pretty much, yes.
However, I'm really not sure if there's a point where training Invo doesn't have a point anymore...like a spellpower cap.

I will reiterate that at very least bat UC attack is 1/5th of normal power. The Delay boost is still relevant though.

Delay boost?

[bcadren]

Delay boost?

UC skill makes the attacks faster at a constant curve; where other weapon skills have an effect based on the weapon's base delay. At 0 skill UC's delay is 10.0 Aut (average) at 27 is it's 5.0 Aut (average).

For contrast; at 0 skill the fastest weapon (quick blade) is 7.0 aut and at 8 Skill it's 3.0 aut. [Though Quickblade's Dam is lower than even bat UC]. (no other weapon goes below 5.0)
Slowest weapon (excluding Scythes, which no one uses) is the Claymore. 19.0 aut at 0 skill; 7 aut. at 24 skill.

And enemy attacks? Except fast enemies (executioner, sixfirhy, death cob) they all attack every 10.0 aut.

[Tiktacy]

Delay boost?

UC skill makes the attacks faster at a constant curve; where other weapon skills have an effect based on the weapon's base delay. At 0 skill UC's delay is 10.0 Aut (average) at 27 is it's 5.0 Aut (average).

For contrast; at 0 skill the fastest weapon (quick blade) is 7.0 aut and at 8 Skill it's 3.0 aut. [Though Quickblade's Dam is lower than even bat UC]. (no other weapon goes below 5.0)
Slowest weapon (excluding Scythes, which no one uses) is the Claymore. 19.0 aut at 0 skill; 7 aut. at 24 skill.

And enemy attacks? Except fast enemies (executioner, sixfirhy, death cob) they all attack every 10.0 aut.

So, unarmed combat bat damage is similar to that of a quick blade in damage then, correct?

[asdu]

Base damage and attack delay (apparently bat form has a bonus to attack delay) are similar with maxed UC skill (while a quick blade only requires 8 levels of short blades), but you get no extra damage from brand and no slaying unless you happen to be wearing an amulet with slaying bonus. So overall bat UC is much much worse than a quickblade. I have no experience with Makhbat runs (I'm no masochist), but I'd imagine that biting things isn't exactly a viable way of dealing with anything dangerous.

[tompliss]

And bat's attacks not being short sword, they're worse at stabbing, too ?

By the way, why a bat of Makh ? I mean, don't thay have the less HP of all forms ?
Wouldn't a bat of Nemelex be as random/versatile in term of damage type, yet more able to stay above 10 HP ?

[Magipi]

By the way, why a bat of Makh ? I mean, don't thay have the less HP of all forms ?
Wouldn't a bat of Nemelex be as random/versatile in term of damage type, yet more able to stay above 10 HP ?

Am I the only one who is baffled by this comment?

[Igxfl]

Nemelex gives you decks of destruction sometimes and doesn't reliably heal you.
Mahkleb gives you destruction invocations all the time and heals on kills.

[Tiktacy]

By the way, why a bat of Makh ? I mean, don't thay have the less HP of all forms ?
Wouldn't a bat of Nemelex be as random/versatile in term of damage type, yet more able to stay above 10 HP ?

Am I the only one who is baffled by this comment?

I'm not, I understand his thought process but it just doesn't come together enough to make sense. I just assumed tompliss misunderstood what was being discussed or didn't understand the context.

[Tiktacy]

Nemelex gives you decks of destruction sometimes and doesn't reliably heal you.
Mahkleb gives you destruction invocations all the time and heals on kills.

Nemelex has the added benefit of allowing you access to end game spells that(if rationed correctly) can allow you a relatively easy time in zot. Makhlebats have a pretty easy time early on, but his invocations lose efficiency over time in terms of piety loss/gain ratio.

Though, I think what I will do next time is start with yred and go for a ninja strategy using servitors to further improve my stealth for optimal ninja skills. Then just save up my bone dragons for zot.

[tompliss]

By the way, why a bat of Makh ? I mean, don't thay have the less HP of all forms ?
Wouldn't a bat of Nemelex be as random/versatile in term of damage type, yet more able to stay above 10 HP ?

Am I the only one who is baffled by this comment?

I'm not, I understand his thought process but it just doesn't come together enough to make sense. I just assumed tompliss misunderstood what was being discussed or didn't understand the context.

You understand correctly : I didn't.

didn't think about the heal on kill, and didn't read the Dart Board thread about the challenge :/