Dearest whoever can edit the wiki

[dck]

Please go to chei's page and completely remove

•Some species are better suited for Cheibriados than others. Spriggan and centaur characters have difficulty raising piety and lose a lot of the impact of Cheibriados' abilities due to their fast movement speed. Nagas, however, "benefit" from a slower-than-average base movement speed.
•Casters benefit from Cheibriados much more than non-casters, as the boost to intelligence would otherwise go to waste. In addition, being able to cast opens up a number of escape options from deadly situations, which come up often when running is no longer an option. Transmuters who use Unarmed Combat in particular benefit greatly from the boost in stats, as the Unarmed Combat damage from Blade Hands is greatly improved by the boost to dexterity and strength.

Also remove the marked parts

•Slouch may be pricey, but it's also an incredibly effective irresistible attack against everything in sight. once you have maxed piety. Melee fighters with low MP can fire one off to soften up or thin out a crowd, while casters can spam it to clear the screen. The body count you create should help recoup the piety cost somewhat, but don't overdo it. It's also an excellent way to take out annoying unseen horrors. Bear in mind that both Slouch's damage and your chance of gaining piety for a kill is based on the difference between your speed and the target's, so areas filled with fast enemies such as the Elven Halls or Spider's Nest are especially vulnerable/profitable. Finally, while slowing yourself will provide a slight increase to Slouch damage, hasted enemies, especially already fast ones, will take drastically increased damage.

Thanks for your community service and trying not to lead newbies into an early grave.

[Sar]

The part about ~casters~ benefiting from Chei more is kind of true, though. Other than that, ugh.

[dck]

@Sar: I don't like it because it comes from the premise Chei isn't basically unplayable without ranged combat, which I find pretty much just wrong. Sending the wrong message to newbies about the god with stuff like that (like for example the non-existing synergy with Na or Tm) has probably made a ton of them just not realize how they can play Chei without the awfulmeter completely exploding.

[Sar]

By ranged do you mean bows/crossbows/slings, or do spells count too? I mean half of the reason casters are less terrible with Chei is that they have ranged options usually, and Chei makes those options both stronger and easier to use (though if you run out of mana in the middle of a fight, you might have to sully your caster purity).

[Klown]

( ( ) )

[dck]

Oh any ranged combat ofc.

[WalkerBoh]

I also propose that whoever wants to edit wiki should do it without the topic on the forum. It is quite simple - just ask for registration.

In a lot of ways, proposing edits on the forum is more useful than silently in the dark. Seeing what info is bad and why is very explanatory. I wouldn't mind seeing a general "wiki clean-up" thread where people can make similar proposed changes.

Also it's not so easy to register to edit the wiki, from what I've heard.

[Tiktacy]

I also propose that whoever wants to edit wiki should do it without the topic on the forum. It is quite simple - just ask for registration.

In a lot of ways, proposing edits on the forum is more useful than silently in the dark. Seeing what info is bad and why is very explanatory. I wouldn't mind seeing a general "wiki clean-up" thread where people can make similar proposed changes.

Also it's not so easy to register to edit the wiki, from what I've heard.

This.

I read wikis a lot for information, and I have been mislead quite a bit by the current wiki. Granted, the times it's helped me outweigh the times it's killed me, it's still annoying to see things like that.

[Grimm]

I think editing the wiki on the forum is a great idea.

[and into]

I still have account at Chaosforge wiki and edited Chei page after reading this. Not too long ago I was trying to work through some of the pages somewhat systematically, starting with species, but ran out of steam. The character guides are a sensitive matter I think (at least some of them) but definitely the pages just intended to give information could be improved a lot. If anyone sees what they consider particularly egregious or misleading information on the wiki that is *not* in one of the character guides, feel free to make a post in Tavern or PM me.

[dck]

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I also see no synergy between blade hands and Chei.
Blade hands does on its own ridiculous damage. Damage ridiculous enough that I find trying to further improve it by doing things other than getting ways to apply it faster (by getting more UC and haste) is comparable to continuing to train UC into the late teens or even 20s when you're using dragon form. You absolutely do not need it and if you want to win it's a bad idea to work on it with that approach.

Now, even leaving that aside, even ignoring the huge impact Chei has on positioning (which is indeed the core of melee combat) even assuming bend time will work literally every time you use it without fail I would claim due to the way it works you are still behind the effective damage curve compared to a blade hands user that has source of haste.

For these reasons I don't think BH is better with Chei than it is without him and I see no reason why there should be a recommendation to use Chei on a Tm. It is basically a textbook example of why showing some numbers in crawl is bad and distracts people from important things, things like already Tm being one of the backgrounds that have a hard time early and Chei doing nothing to help them.

[Eyesburn]

but I also see no synergy between blade hands and Chei.

>>>

as the Unarmed Combat damage from Blade Hands is greatly improved by the boost to dexterity and strength.

This is also true:

Spriggan and centaur characters have difficulty raising piety

why you removed that ?

[WalkerBoh]

The point is that while the boost to Dex and Str do boost damage, they do not boost it as much as having a source of haste would. You are trading a small boost for other potentially much bigger ones (like oka's hero and finesse, for example).

For fast species, the old wording implies that Sp and Ce are not recommended for Chei because of piety gain difficulty. In reality, you still gain piety plenty fast with either, and have the huge added benefit of still being faster than a lot of enemies at no stars of piety. The increased movement speed more than makes up for whatever negligible difficulty those races have gaining piety.

[dirtywick]

The end result of blade hands/haste is likely better. I also agree that Tm are pretty squishy and further naga chei characters get a larger benefit from shields which doesn't mix well with the Tm gameplan.

Though I have to admit that getting blade hands/bend time is a much smaller skill investment to get online and guaranteed on character generation. I think a NaTm of Oka could do the same thing with a similar skill investment and be much less vulnerable and then get haste later anyway. I do think Na of chei can be quite powerful once they get rolling, but a NaTm of chei isn't one of those examples.

[tasonir]

I'd like to update my guide again, I PM'ed moogledan a few days ago, but it seems he hasn't seen it yet. Can I use this thread to ask for someone to get my wiki account back? Can and into do that, or is your account just a regular user account?

I do think that chei and blade hands is synergistic; granted that blade hands does high damage without Chei, but doing even more improves how quickly you can kill things. You can always roll bad numbers, and chei makes that less likely. Two hitting things is good, but that doesn't mean there's no benefit to one hitting things. Granted it may not be the most important thing to aim for, may not compensate for having a very hard time walking, etc...but it does help.

Edit: yes there is synergy between blade hands/haste, but there's synergy between haste and everything (which is why it's so powerful) and it isn't mutually exclusive with blade hands and + stats synergy.

[WalkerBoh]

I think it is okay to say "if you decide to worship Chei, going for unarmed combat and blade hands could be a good idea because of xyz".

It is NOT okay to say "if you are using unarmed combat and blade hands, you should worship Chei because of xyz". Because any xyz will be more true for having haste/zerk/faster movement speed than for any benefit Chei gives.

Edit: I.e.: tranmutations are good for Chei, but Chei is not good for transmuters.

[tasonir]

I agree! Have I been unclear on that distinction in the past? I could try to make it more clear if I ever get wiki access back, but the point of my guide was that you have already decided you're playing a naga of chei, and then how to do that effectively, not that all transmuters should worship Chei. I've played a few transmuters of Okawaru, but ironically, they've all died.

[Sar]

it isn't mutually exclusive with blade hands and + stats synergy

Um what? In case of Cheistats it is.

[and into]

Thanks dck and WalkerBoh, I'll revisit my edits and try to come up with a succinct, accurate, but not potentially mis-advising version.

@ Eyesburn: Well I have to say I don't have much experience with spriggan/centaur^Chei but it seems like it would defeat the purpose of species and god to go with Chei. But that problem is much deeper than "hard time getting piety." It sounded to me a bit like saying, "Going for Firestorm with a TrBe will be hard if you stick with Trog because of penance"—yeah, sure, but that's just the tip of the ice berg. But if I'm off base and someone has ascended a bunch of Cheitaurs and knows better, by all means correct me.

@ tasonir: Wish I could, but I'm just a regular user/editor, no special privileges. I'm afraid I can't restore your account. This would be a weird way to do it but if you are really itching to edit your guide, PM me your revised version and I'll paste it in.

[WalkerBoh]

@ tasonir: Well I haven't looked at your guide so I can't say if you specifically have been unclear. I just wanted to be crystal clear about what I meant. Anything Chei can do, haste can do better.

[tasonir]

By that I meant that just because blade hands is synergistic with haste, it doesn't mean that blade hands is not synergistic with increased stats. If those stats are from chei, then yes you will not be using haste as well.

In other words, just because someone wins first place, does not mean that second place does not exist. You will not be simultaneously first and second place.

[duvessa]

By that I meant that just because blade hands is synergistic with haste, it doesn't mean that blade hands is not synergistic with increased stats.

It does, however, mean that blade hands is anti-synergistic with something that prevents you from using haste.

In other words, just because someone wins first place, does not mean that second place does not exist. You will not be simultaneously first and second place.

In this case, second place is also last place.

[Bloax]

This is also true:

Spriggan and centaur characters have difficulty raising piety

why you removed that ?

Because even as a spriggan you'll eventually get there by killing cockroaches, adders and bats. And even if you don't raise a lot of piety, you still have plenty of centaurs to kill. If you're still not below average speed at that point, there are snakes in lair.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Since it came up in another thread and hasn't been fixed:

Imprison - Temporarily creates a silver wall prison, similar to a Tomb card, around an enemy and push away adjacent monsters. After the imprisonment is over the monster gets Recited. Imprison can only be used on monsters which are susceptible to Recite, and strong monsters may break themselves out. Costs 5 MP, 125-250 Food, and 4-6 Piety.

Makes me cringe badly, because enemies that can be Imprisoned but not Recited include orbs of fire and every single monster in Lair.

I've emailed to make an account on the wiki, and I'm going to give the Zin page a thorough look later, though the eyes of someone more expert than myself would be good.

[tasonir]

In other words, just because someone wins first place, does not mean that second place does not exist. You will not be simultaneously first and second place.

In this case, second place is also last place.

Then the game is broken and needs to be redesigned as a high priority change, no brainers go directly against core philosophy

@and into: I'll write up the changes and send 'em over to you somehow, that should be faster than getting an account. Can't make too many incremental changes, so maybe I'll just start a forum thread for feedback on it instead, will get to it sometime this weekend.

[Magipi]

it isn't mutually exclusive with blade hands and + stats synergy

Um what? In case of Cheistats it is.

Tasonir knows the trick how to use Haste with Chei, that is why he is so successful with Chei.

[and into]

Since it came up in another thread and hasn't been fixed:

Imprison - Temporarily creates a silver wall prison, similar to a Tomb card, around an enemy and push away adjacent monsters. After the imprisonment is over the monster gets Recited. Imprison can only be used on monsters which are susceptible to Recite, and strong monsters may break themselves out. Costs 5 MP, 125-250 Food, and 4-6 Piety.

Makes me cringe badly, because enemies that can be Imprisoned but not Recited include orbs of fire and every single monster in Lair.

I've emailed to make an account on the wiki, and I'm going to give the Zin page a thorough look later, though the eyes of someone more expert than myself would be good.

Sounds good, in the meantime I'll do what I can though.

[zardo]

Having Blade Hands is not an argument for using Chei.

Having Chei is technically an argument for using Blade Hands.

But playing Tm and Chei at the same time is also likely to be harder than 95 percent of ways to start a character - even if the synergy outweighed the loss of haste this would be an example of the fallacy of building for the later game (if you want to win)

[and into]

"Spread the light, my child."

I just finished some clean up on the Zin page. Well, as much as I could. Advice or things that I missed would be much appreciated.

Feels good to be doing the Lord's work.

[Eyesburn]

Aye ok, I get it;
but instead of removing this completely

Spriggan and centaur characters have difficulty raising piety

you could add something like this:

Well, Centaurs speed means they can actually cheimove around in combat to get into a better position without being horribly mangled en route. Your piety gain is a bit slower, but chei slows you so you will get piety from killing some things early, and then you start to get piety from everything. Gaining piety slowly is arguably a benefit in the early game, though other races could mimic this by just joining a little later.
Ranged combat is good with chei - the stat boosts improve your delay a lot, I think the str helps damage but who knows, but more importantly you have a lot more positions in which you don't need to move, just shoot.
Eventually with chei you can cast whatever spells you need to.

[Siegurt]

Having Blade Hands is not an argument for using Chei.

Having Chei is technically an argument for using Blade Hands.

But playing Tm and Chei at the same time is also likely to be harder than 95 percent of ways to start a character - even if the synergy outweighed the loss of haste this would be an example of the fallacy of building for the later game (if you want to win)

Just a quick point, not to say that this counters the point being made but:

No haste, no Chei transmuter with blade hands (a human at level 10, with 2 rings and a staff of wizardry to make sure as little XP was spent on transmutations as possible):

  Code:

AvEffDam
  12.1


With haste:

  Code:

AvEffDam
  18.6


With no haste and chei piety at 200:

  Code:

 AvEffDam
   25.4


Not to mention that it takes a lot less exp to get blade hands working with +15 int, and you don't need to spend any XP on charms to get haste (And can therefore have a higher say, dodging or UC or something) However for the purposes of this test I left skill trained the same.

So, in point of fact, Chei does give blade hands a larger bonus to damage than haste does.

Now that being said, Chei also does all kinds of other crap which may or may not make him worth using for all kinds of reasons, and "Transmuters really need to have the benefit of being able to get into good position for melee combat, which chei makes significantly harder" is a solid argument. But the fact remains that blade hands is made better by max piety chei worship than by haste.

[crate]

But the fact remains that blade hands is made better by max piety chei worship than by haste.

this is a very misleading statement, since damage is in fact not the only thing that matters with blade hands!

[dck]

I said effective damage and I said so specifically because while chei's flat boost can make for larger numbers than haste when running fsims he lowers the rate at which you can effectively apply that damage in battle.
That is also an extremely fallacious comparison because chei's flat boost is much more significant when your UC is really low (coincidentally when you shouldn't be using BH at all) and quickly is starts losing ground to hasted BH. At 15 UC chei bh struggles to have 2 aveffdam over hasted bh.

[duvessa]

You have omitted all useful information from that fsim. Without knowing the character's original str/dex, unarmed skill, and fighting skill, it is meaningless, because you could have chosen something completely stupid like 5 unarmed skill. You don't even mention what monster it's against.

[bcadren]

I feel like Chei's stat boosts are the greatest help when you use all of your stats. Though Blade Hands is an obvious example of using all your stats; it's not the best one. One thing which I think is possible only with Chei or level 27's in a bunch of skills (it's barely possible which average human stats and max skills in everything in Wizard Mode)...is casting high level spells in really heavy armour (managing to belt out Fire Storm in a GDA [with average human stats and max skills, it's at a 17% fail rate] with Chei boosted stats you can get there by midgame instead of WAY past the end. What I mean though is if there's one combination that benefits most from Chei, realistically; it's going to be an Arcane Marksman or a Pure Caster that uses Heavy Armors. (At least in terms of getting full benefit from the stat boosts without splatting yourself due to being unable to correct positioning.)

[Sar]

Pure casters are a bad idea with Chei because you can run out of mana but you can't run away.

[dck]

I understand when making comparisons about the use of this or that stat in theory it's very well to do something ridiculous like taking for granted 27 all skills, wearing GDA and looking only at the brilliance-less, wizardry-less failure rate of a level 9 dual school spell, but in reality it means absolutely nothing. That is just not how the game works.

[Bloax]

Pure casters are a bad idea with Chei because you can run out of mana but you can't run away.

It actually works pretty well until you start fighting a lot of stuff that you can't kill without using up all your MP, but at (and before) that point you're usually able to easily branch out into melee - be it weapons or transmutations.

It's definitely not a very good idea if you're going for winning more than playing a cheicaster though.

[Sar]

Well, a lot of things are good idea if your aim is not winning.

[tasonir]

I said effective damage and I said so specifically because while chei's flat boost can make for larger numbers than haste when running fsims he lowers the rate at which you can effectively apply that damage in battle.
That is also an extremely fallacious comparison because chei's flat boost is much more significant when your UC is really low (coincidentally when you shouldn't be using BH at all) and quickly is starts losing ground to hasted BH. At 15 UC chei bh struggles to have 2 aveffdam over hasted bh.

Chei does not slow down the rate at which you can apply it unless you are walking in combat, which you shouldn't be under chei. It's slower than hasted, of course, but he doesn't lower your rate, just prevents you from raising it.

Also the claim you need high UC to use blade hands is extremely false. You can effectively kill things with blade hands and chei with very low UC. Even 0 UC. Without chei, you'll need some unarmed, but it still doesn't have to be very high. In fact, I did get blade hands online with 0 unarmed in this game (and hit things with it while it was 0, although it was turned on and leveled up pretty fast):

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/tasonir.txt

  Code:

 18380 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations  (This went to about 8-9, but I don't have it log every skill level)
 21796 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 1 in Unarmed Combat
 23722 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat
 23728 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Transmutations
 60744 | Depths:5 | Reached skill level 15 in Unarmed Combat

Obviously I started out with slings, which is why I still had 0 unarmed, and took transmutations to ~9, and then turned on UC and transmutations for the last bit of transmutations before turning it off. I didn't reach level 15 UC until depths:5. This is partially due to hybridizing between slings and UC, and also because you simply don't need high UC with blade hands and +15 all stats. I'm planning on 15 runes, so my experience is fairly spread out. I will admit I trained statue form way too early - I don't need that until extended and I've been using blade hands much more than stone in the areas I've already cleared. But otherwise my skill training has been fairly good.

[dck]

I think it's really obvious the part about "when you shouldn't be using BH at all" refers to the other transmutation spells that do in fact exist in Tm's starting book and which also are lower level. It is also stupid to imagine some fictional Tm which starts with no UC, max chei piety and transmutations and MP enough to use blade hands; in reality to get to the point when he can think about using bh he alredy has a fair bit of UC and with a fair bit of UC (I have no idea where you get the "you need high UC to use blade hands" part from since I've stated in two different posts this is not the case) cheibh quickly loses its relative advantage over regular bh with the possibility of haste.

[and into]

You can also do stuff like cast LCS purely from conjurations and spell casting (and at least one guide on the wiki suggests this). But it is a false economy. Like using blade hands with 0 UC just because you can, in order to save experience or something.

fsim calls it "av effective damage" so I can see why someone might initially misread dck's post, but his subsequent one should have made it quite clear I think—he's saying exactly what you just said tasonir: Chei greatly restricts your ability to move/reposition/tactically retreat during combat, so yes, worshiping Chei means you are going to lose real efficiency in most actual encounters if you are sticking to melee. If you are using ranged options, like longbows/crossbows, you are losing some flexibility and control but it has much less impact. Hence the strong recommendations to use longbows/crossbows if you do happen to have your heart set on Chei worship.

EDIT: And yes since we are comparing a dude with a more reliable form of fast than !speed, and a Chei dude with max or near-max piety, we are tacitly assuming that this isn't someone who just set foot in the dungeon, and any character who is branching out into stuff like blade hands will probably have put more than just a half dozen levels in UC, I think. Also while on the subject of transmuters, and speaking of comparisons, there is a god who gives +5 to your UC skill and a better-than-haste attack speed boost to UC, without blocking regular hasting, and who does not mess with your ability to reposition in combat, has no difficult conducts, and is very straightforward and newb-friendly. Even then I wouldn't say that this god has any particular "synergy" with blade hands, though he has better synergy with UC than other forms of melee combat.

[Bloax]

Okawaru is somewhat known as transmuter "easymode", and for good reason too.

[tasonir]

I have no idea where you get the "you need high UC to use blade hands"

when your UC is really low (coincidentally when you shouldn't be using BH at all)

Yeah, I'm not sure how I got that impression.

People make such exaggerated statements when it comes to Chei. Yes, losing haste is painful and a difficult conduct. Please stop comparing it the black death, Chei is still a really cool god.

It is also stupid to imagine some fictional Tm

in reality to get to the point when he can think about using bh he alredy has a fair bit of UC

It wasn't a theoretical argument, I linked directly to my morgue. I wasn't a TM. Other backgrounds can still pick up melee...

[Bloax]

Human, 13(28)/14(29)/17(32) Str/Int/Dex(+15 Cheistats), 15 Fighting + Bladehands

Against a yak:

Spoiler: show

Cheistats:

  Code:

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         9 |     31.7 |    109 |      91% |  29.1 |    83  |  1.20 |     35.1
        10 |     33.3 |    115 |      91% |  30.5 |    82  |  1.23 |     37.2
        11 |     35.3 |    117 |      91% |  32.2 |    80  |  1.25 |     40.2
        12 |     35.1 |    124 |      90% |  31.9 |    78  |  1.28 |     40.9
        13 |     37.4 |    121 |      90% |  33.7 |    76  |  1.31 |     44.4
        14 |     38.3 |    124 |      90% |  34.6 |    74  |  1.35 |     46.7
        15 |     39.6 |    121 |      90% |  35.9 |    72  |  1.38 |     49.9
        16 |     40.9 |    158 |      90% |  37.0 |    71  |  1.42 |     52.1
        17 |     42.4 |    140 |      89% |  38.1 |    69  |  1.46 |     55.2
        18 |     44.2 |    141 |      89% |  39.6 |    67  |  1.50 |     59.1
        19 |     44.8 |    144 |      90% |  40.4 |    65  |  1.54 |     62.1
        20 |     46.7 |    157 |      90% |  42.2 |    63  |  1.58 |     67.0
        21 |     47.3 |    152 |      89% |  42.4 |    61  |  1.63 |     69.5
        22 |     49.3 |    164 |      89% |  44.3 |    59  |  1.68 |     75.0
        23 |     49.8 |    152 |      89% |  44.6 |    58  |  1.74 |     76.9
        24 |     50.3 |    167 |      89% |  45.1 |    56  |  1.79 |     80.5
        25 |     52.3 |    173 |      90% |  47.2 |    54  |  1.86 |     87.5
        26 |     52.9 |    179 |      89% |  47.3 |    52  |  1.92 |     91.0
        27 |     54.4 |    186 |      89% |  48.6 |    50  |  1.99 |     97.2

Normalstats:

  Code:

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         9 |     15.4 |     46 |      89% |  13.8 |    84  |  1.20 |     16.5
        10 |     16.0 |     49 |      90% |  14.4 |    82  |  1.22 |     17.6
        11 |     16.9 |     53 |      89% |  15.2 |    80  |  1.25 |     19.0
        12 |     18.2 |     58 |      89% |  16.3 |    78  |  1.28 |     20.9
        13 |     19.0 |     58 |      89% |  16.9 |    76  |  1.31 |     22.3
        14 |     19.6 |     63 |      89% |  17.5 |    74  |  1.35 |     23.7
        15 |     20.7 |     67 |      89% |  18.5 |    73  |  1.38 |     25.4
        16 |     21.3 |     66 |      89% |  19.0 |    71  |  1.41 |     26.8
        17 |     21.9 |     70 |      89% |  19.5 |    69  |  1.45 |     28.3
        18 |     23.1 |     70 |      88% |  20.5 |    67  |  1.49 |     30.6
        19 |     23.3 |     75 |      89% |  20.8 |    65  |  1.54 |     32.0
        20 |     24.9 |     82 |      88% |  22.1 |    63  |  1.58 |     35.0
        21 |     25.7 |     80 |      88% |  22.8 |    61  |  1.63 |     37.4
        22 |     26.2 |     81 |      89% |  23.4 |    60  |  1.68 |     39.0
        23 |     26.8 |     82 |      88% |  23.6 |    58  |  1.73 |     40.7
        24 |     27.8 |     94 |      89% |  24.9 |    56  |  1.79 |     44.5
        25 |     27.9 |     87 |      89% |  25.0 |    54  |  1.85 |     46.3
        26 |     29.2 |     93 |      87% |  25.7 |    52  |  1.92 |     49.3
        27 |     30.1 |     94 |      89% |  26.9 |    50  |  1.99 |     53.8

Normalstats+Haste:

  Code:

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         9 |     15.9 |     53 |      89% |  14.2 |    56  |  1.80 |     25.4
        10 |     16.4 |     51 |      88% |  14.6 |    54  |  1.84 |     27.0
        11 |     17.2 |     57 |      89% |  15.3 |    53  |  1.88 |     28.9
        12 |     18.0 |     59 |      90% |  16.2 |    52  |  1.92 |     31.1
        13 |     18.8 |     64 |      89% |  16.9 |    51  |  1.97 |     33.1
        14 |     19.9 |     61 |      88% |  17.6 |    50  |  2.02 |     35.3
        15 |     20.3 |     72 |      89% |  18.1 |    48  |  2.07 |     37.8
        16 |     21.4 |     67 |      90% |  19.3 |    47  |  2.12 |     41.0
        17 |     22.1 |     67 |      89% |  19.6 |    46  |  2.18 |     42.7
        18 |     23.0 |     72 |      89% |  20.6 |    45  |  2.24 |     45.7
        19 |     24.0 |     76 |      89% |  21.5 |    43  |  2.31 |     49.9
        20 |     24.8 |     81 |      88% |  22.1 |    42  |  2.38 |     52.5
        21 |     25.9 |     88 |      89% |  23.2 |    41  |  2.44 |     56.6
        22 |     26.1 |     87 |      89% |  23.4 |    40  |  2.51 |     58.5
        23 |     27.0 |     82 |      89% |  24.1 |    38  |  2.60 |     63.4
        24 |     27.7 |     82 |      89% |  24.8 |    37  |  2.69 |     66.9
        25 |     28.6 |     91 |      89% |  25.5 |    36  |  2.79 |     70.9
        26 |     29.3 |     91 |      88% |  26.0 |    35  |  2.88 |     74.2
        27 |     29.7 |     96 |      89% |  26.4 |    34  |  2.97 |     77.7

NormalStats+Finesse:

  Code:

         9 |     15.9 |     51 |      90% |  14.4 |    42  |  2.39 |     34.3
        10 |     16.2 |     55 |      89% |  14.5 |    41  |  2.44 |     35.4
        11 |     17.2 |     57 |      90% |  15.5 |    40  |  2.50 |     38.8
        12 |     18.4 |     62 |      89% |  16.5 |    39  |  2.56 |     42.2
        13 |     19.4 |     61 |      89% |  17.4 |    38  |  2.63 |     45.7
        14 |     19.9 |     60 |      89% |  17.8 |    37  |  2.69 |     48.0
        15 |     20.8 |     63 |      89% |  18.5 |    36  |  2.77 |     51.4
        16 |     21.2 |     68 |      89% |  19.0 |    35  |  2.83 |     54.4
        17 |     22.3 |     68 |      88% |  19.8 |    34  |  2.91 |     58.3
        18 |     22.7 |     76 |      88% |  20.2 |    33  |  2.99 |     61.2
        19 |     23.8 |     77 |      89% |  21.3 |    32  |  3.08 |     66.5
        20 |     24.9 |     77 |      89% |  22.2 |    32  |  3.15 |     69.3
        21 |     25.7 |     78 |      88% |  22.8 |    31  |  3.26 |     73.7
        22 |     26.3 |     87 |      88% |  23.3 |    30  |  3.36 |     77.5
        23 |     26.8 |     87 |      88% |  23.6 |    29  |  3.46 |     81.5
        24 |     28.0 |     85 |      89% |  25.0 |    28  |  3.57 |     89.3
        25 |     28.4 |     90 |      88% |  25.3 |    27  |  3.72 |     93.7
        26 |     29.4 |     91 |      89% |  26.3 |    26  |  3.83 |    101.1
        27 |     30.1 |     87 |      89% |  26.9 |    25  |  3.97 |    107.7

Against a hell sentinel:

Spoiler: show

Cheistats:

  Code:

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         9 |     22.5 |     96 |      95% |  21.6 |    83  |  1.20 |     26.0
        10 |     23.5 |     98 |      96% |  22.6 |    82  |  1.23 |     27.6
        11 |     24.3 |    106 |      95% |  23.3 |    80  |  1.25 |     29.1
        12 |     24.7 |    117 |      95% |  23.7 |    78  |  1.28 |     30.4
        13 |     25.5 |    105 |      95% |  24.3 |    76  |  1.32 |     32.0
        14 |     26.9 |    109 |      95% |  25.7 |    74  |  1.35 |     34.7
        15 |     29.3 |    117 |      96% |  28.2 |    72  |  1.38 |     39.2
        16 |     29.7 |    123 |      95% |  28.3 |    70  |  1.42 |     40.4
        17 |     31.0 |    131 |      94% |  29.3 |    69  |  1.46 |     42.5
        18 |     32.1 |    130 |      95% |  30.6 |    67  |  1.50 |     45.7
        19 |     33.4 |    124 |      95% |  31.9 |    65  |  1.54 |     49.1
        20 |     33.1 |    141 |      94% |  31.3 |    63  |  1.58 |     49.7
        21 |     35.0 |    127 |      95% |  33.3 |    61  |  1.63 |     54.6
        22 |     35.8 |    138 |      95% |  34.1 |    59  |  1.68 |     57.9
        23 |     36.5 |    144 |      95% |  34.9 |    58  |  1.74 |     60.1
        24 |     38.2 |    153 |      95% |  36.3 |    56  |  1.80 |     64.9
        25 |     39.9 |    155 |      94% |  37.8 |    54  |  1.85 |     70.1
        26 |     39.8 |    167 |      95% |  37.9 |    52  |  1.93 |     72.9
        27 |     40.9 |    165 |      95% |  39.1 |    50  |  1.99 |     78.3

Normalstats:

  Code:

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         9 |      7.8 |     54 |      95% |   7.5 |    84  |  1.19 |      8.9
        10 |      8.7 |     46 |      95% |   8.3 |    82  |  1.22 |     10.1
        11 |      9.3 |     49 |      94% |   8.8 |    80  |  1.25 |     11.0
        12 |      9.6 |     46 |      95% |   9.1 |    78  |  1.28 |     11.7
        13 |     10.4 |     47 |      95% |   9.9 |    76  |  1.31 |     13.0
        14 |     11.0 |     50 |      95% |  10.5 |    74  |  1.34 |     14.2
        15 |     11.8 |     56 |      94% |  11.2 |    72  |  1.38 |     15.5
        16 |     11.8 |     53 |      95% |  11.2 |    71  |  1.42 |     15.8
        17 |     13.2 |     59 |      94% |  12.5 |    69  |  1.45 |     18.0
        18 |     13.4 |     63 |      95% |  12.8 |    67  |  1.50 |     19.0
        19 |     14.5 |     70 |      95% |  13.7 |    65  |  1.54 |     21.2
        20 |     15.1 |     65 |      95% |  14.3 |    63  |  1.58 |     22.7
        21 |     15.8 |     75 |      95% |  15.0 |    61  |  1.63 |     24.7
        22 |     16.6 |     71 |      95% |  15.9 |    60  |  1.68 |     26.5
        23 |     17.0 |     67 |      94% |  16.1 |    58  |  1.73 |     27.8
        24 |     17.8 |     70 |      94% |  16.8 |    56  |  1.79 |     30.0
        25 |     18.6 |     71 |      95% |  17.7 |    54  |  1.85 |     32.8
        26 |     19.1 |     71 |      95% |  18.1 |    52  |  1.92 |     34.9
        27 |     19.4 |     86 |      95% |  18.5 |    50  |  1.99 |     37.0

Normalstats+Haste:

  Code:

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         9 |      7.7 |     40 |      95% |   7.4 |    56  |  1.79 |     13.2
        10 |      8.2 |     44 |      94% |   7.8 |    55  |  1.83 |     14.1
        11 |      9.0 |     45 |      95% |   8.6 |    53  |  1.88 |     16.2
        12 |      9.6 |     49 |      95% |   9.1 |    52  |  1.92 |     17.6
        13 |     10.5 |     54 |      95% |  10.0 |    51  |  1.97 |     19.7
        14 |     10.6 |     55 |      95% |  10.2 |    50  |  2.01 |     20.4
        15 |     11.4 |     61 |      95% |  11.0 |    48  |  2.07 |     22.8
        16 |     12.0 |     62 |      95% |  11.5 |    47  |  2.12 |     24.4
        17 |     12.6 |     55 |      95% |  12.0 |    46  |  2.18 |     26.1
        18 |     13.2 |     69 |      95% |  12.6 |    45  |  2.24 |     28.0
        19 |     14.0 |     67 |      95% |  13.3 |    43  |  2.30 |     30.9
        20 |     14.6 |     60 |      95% |  13.9 |    42  |  2.38 |     33.2
        21 |     16.1 |     73 |      94% |  15.3 |    41  |  2.43 |     37.3
        22 |     16.1 |     79 |      94% |  15.2 |    40  |  2.51 |     38.0
        23 |     17.5 |     68 |      95% |  16.7 |    38  |  2.60 |     43.9
        24 |     17.5 |     79 |      95% |  16.7 |    37  |  2.67 |     45.2
        25 |     18.3 |     77 |      94% |  17.4 |    36  |  2.77 |     48.3
        26 |     18.6 |     84 |      95% |  17.8 |    35  |  2.88 |     50.9
        27 |     19.8 |     74 |      95% |  18.9 |    34  |  2.97 |     55.7

Normalstats+Finesse:

  Code:

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         9 |      7.9 |     40 |      95% |   7.5 |    42  |  2.39 |     17.9
        10 |      8.5 |     52 |      96% |   8.2 |    41  |  2.44 |     19.9
        11 |      8.9 |     43 |      95% |   8.5 |    40  |  2.51 |     21.3
        12 |      9.8 |     53 |      95% |   9.4 |    39  |  2.55 |     24.2
        13 |     10.4 |     50 |      94% |   9.9 |    38  |  2.62 |     26.0
        14 |     11.2 |     55 |      95% |  10.6 |    37  |  2.70 |     28.7
        15 |     12.0 |     51 |      95% |  11.4 |    36  |  2.76 |     31.6
        16 |     11.9 |     51 |      95% |  11.4 |    35  |  2.83 |     32.5
        17 |     12.5 |     67 |      95% |  11.8 |    35  |  2.90 |     33.8
        18 |     13.7 |     70 |      94% |  13.0 |    33  |  3.00 |     39.4
        19 |     14.5 |     64 |      95% |  13.9 |    33  |  3.07 |     42.0
        20 |     15.0 |     67 |      94% |  14.2 |    32  |  3.17 |     44.3
        21 |     16.4 |     70 |      94% |  15.6 |    31  |  3.25 |     50.3
        22 |     16.4 |     68 |      94% |  15.5 |    30  |  3.36 |     51.8
        23 |     17.0 |     74 |      95% |  16.2 |    29  |  3.47 |     55.8
        24 |     17.4 |     77 |      94% |  16.5 |    28  |  3.59 |     59.0
        25 |     18.5 |     73 |      95% |  17.6 |    27  |  3.69 |     65.3
        26 |     19.2 |     89 |      94% |  18.2 |    26  |  3.84 |     69.8
        27 |     19.8 |     76 |      95% |  19.0 |    25  |  3.97 |     75.8

Spoiler: okawaru is best god, but we love chei and his coolness either way
Although Chei does pretty good passively compared to Okawaru's magnum opus.

[dck]

@tasonir: You shouldn't be using bh with UC that is really low because at that point you simply do not have any reason to be using bh as you have other spells that benefit you more and using those, with the skill investments they benefit most from (this includes a moderate-high amount of UC, for example) simply creates a stronger character that can then pick up bh (but cannot in fact simultaneously have really low UC and bh because you built him like a sane person).
I know you brought up a non-Tm morgue, which is in fact completely useless because we were talking about advice given about a supposed synergy between Tm, bh and chei.
Losing haste isn't the worst thing Chei does, speaking of which, can you please stop trying to turn the thread into a crusade about chei?

[and into]

Okawaru is somewhat known as transmuter "easymode", and for good reason too.

Sure, but I mainly think of that in terms of Okawaru being great for UC in general, which thus also makes him very good for characters that also use forms to buff their UC.

[damiac]

I don't know about you, but I would consider over 2x effective damage a pretty good synergy. Also, haste is not a TM spell, so it requires training another skill fairly high, which is not required with chei.

Now, that's not to say Chei is easy, optimal, or anything. But the statement that blade hands has a good synergy with Chei is provably true. If you're already going Chei, blade hands will be a good source of damage.

Now, if your definition of "synergy" doesn't mean "is more effective" it would help us to understand what you're saying if you would explain what synergy means to you.

[and into]

I can't speak for dck obviously, but when it comes to god choice in particular, "synergy" to me has to do with taking all the pros and cons together. With Chei and Tm, you can no longer use spider form very well—you can no longer use it to flee once you get some Chei piety, and even in combat the impact of the spell is vastly weakened.

(Note: The speed + damage boost + poison brand, altogether, mean that spider form gives you better control of fights. You can bump a few times then back off and let poison wear them down, then repeat. Very safe way to take out Ogres, orc warriors, and the like, even very early on. Without the speed that falls apart and spider form just becomes a weird buff spell, rather than what it normally is: a spell that really expands how you can approach combat and alters who/what you can attack.)

So I'm reluctant to say that Tm has particular affinities with Chei. With Blade Hands—sure, I suppose. But speaking of synergy with god choice should really be about the overall game play experience of taking that god with a particular background/species. Otherwise it is very narrow and synergy doesn't seem to be the right word. (E.g., there's better "synergy" with a non-Tm, UC-using dude who goes with Chei, and then later on at some point picks up Blade Hands from a book he didn't start with.) And it seems weird to say that a god has synergy with a particular spell, especially when that spell is as niche as Blade Hands (something that only dudes using UC characters want), and yet the one background that starts with UC and that spell in its book doesn't actually work so well with Chei overall.

A different example: Back when Okawaru punished you for having allies I would seldom take him as a Tm because sticks to snakes is a powerful spell that's helpful early game (when piety is low and scarce); maybe I would take Oka on early D2 altar or something, but whatever other people thought I wouldn't consider Okawaru to have any kind of particular synergy with Tm. Now that Okawaru doesn't punish you for having friends, it is reasonable to say there's some synergy with Tm because heroism's boost to damage is better for UC than other weapons.

Even now, this still doesn't make Okawaru a "no brainer" or anything for Mo/Tm, because the more important synergy when it comes to god choice has to do with complementing your overall game play. Makhleb is a strong choice on stabber builds not because he boosts stabbing damage or something, but because he gives you strong options for dealing with dudes you failed to stab or stabbed but didn't quite kill, and he gives you those options cheaply (just have to train ~10 invocations or whatever).

[duvessa]

Also, you guys do realize that stats affect damage for things that aren't blade hands, right?