The Tavern

Have a melee only level 5 demigod right now. In the sewers, I've been hit by a sickly siren. I'm locked in a 'you can't get me, you can't move away either, hahahahaha' situation.
I don't have tele or anything. Is there a way out of this, or is it a fail design?

Any way to block LOS via ?fog or creating steam should break mesmerize, as will scroll of noise IIRC. Otherwise you may be screwed. This is in 0.13 offline, I take it? (This was supposedly fixed in Trunk I think.)

The only sewer with a siren also has some preidentified scrolls of teleportation and potions of flight; did you manage to grab the latter first?

Got nothing to consume.

but on the bright side, it takes only a few seconds to start a new character...

Please tell me that the siren will at least TRY to kill him rather than simply let him starve, that'd be too silly.

Sirens' annoying gimmick is annoying

Psiweapon wrote:Please tell me that the siren will at least TRY to kill him rather than simply let him starve, that'd be too silly.

Sirens' annoying gimmick is annoying

But why don't you use your bow? Or crossbow? Or blowgun? Or javelin? Or wands? Or whatever, man.

pratamawirya wrote:
Psiweapon wrote:Please tell me that the siren will at least TRY to kill him rather than simply let him starve, that'd be too silly.

Sirens' annoying gimmick is annoying

But why don't you use your bow? Or crossbow? Or blowgun? Or javelin? Or wands? Or whatever, man.

I myself always have some sort of ranged support on whatever character, because it makes your life easier all-around, but I can easily see how this situation can be annoying as fork.

*proposes sirens get removed, burned, burned again*

Is there a way to kill this character without holding s for 5 hours?

Klown wrote:*proposes sirens get removed, burned, burned again*

Is there a way to kill this character without holding s for 5 hours?

ctrl-Q, then "yes".

You went full melee, man. That's the problem. Never go full melee!

I only go full melee!

you understand this is a bad idea, right? I mean, you played this longer than I have....

I come from games where I can choose one style and play it that way. Also, areas get boring after you've walked through them 2000 times. It's hard for me to stay patient doing the same thing all over again, so zooming to end game is what matters. :3
Pure Magic: Slowwww. Z+a+enter....o...z+a+enter...attack missed! Miscasts at 1% fail rate! z+a+enter(you took 1 hp off the monster, hit him some more!)
Pure ranged: Here's 20 arrows, go kill 2 million monsters. Don't worry, you'll find 10 more arrows by Lair.
Pure Melee: O, hold down tab until everything is dead(after judging it's safe to do so). -> autozot

this is not one of these games, as you just discovered.

klown wrote:Pure Magic: Slowwww. Z+a+enter....o...z+a+enter...attack missed! Miscasts at 1% fail rate! z+a+enter(you took 1 hp off the monster, hit him some more!)

do you use macros? they make casting much less of a pain. also, hitting stuff works wonders.

klown wrote:Pure ranged: Here's 20 arrows, go kill 2 million monsters. Don't worry, you'll find 10 more arrows by Lair.

hitting things helps here too. you just need to spend ammo on more dangerous guys.

klown wrote:Pure Melee: O, hold down tab until everything is dead(after judging it's safe to do so). -> autozot

you just discovered one of many reasons this does not work very well. charms and translocation are others.
I discovered that some versatility for your character makes the game lots more fun.

I know.

I just don't have the patience to not play it the above latter way. Once in a while, I'll take my time and actually try winning but running around like a psychopath swinging an axe is more fun for me.

I think i am having the rpoblems with boring staff as you. This is why my mages are normally doing F1 F1 F1 5 o until i get the storm.

There is no way we're going to scrap a nice Sewer map due to a single incident like this. Not only have sirens recently been changed, that vault really goes out of its way to prevent stuff like this. This is not bad luck, this is operator error or stubborness or perhaps even bad faith. (I don't believe this happened accidentally.)

dpeg wrote:This is not bad luck, this is operator error or stubborness or perhaps even bad faith. (I don't believe this happened accidentally.)

Can you clarify this?

Preidentified items, open sea to see, the OP talking about "*proposes sirens get removed, burned, burned again*".

Klown wrote:I know. I just don't have the patience to not play it the above latter way. Once in a while, I'll take my time and actually try winning but running around like a psychopath swinging an axe is more fun for me.

Haha, glad I'm not the only one. Who cares about winrate, when you can let natural selection choose which char is worthy of the orb ^^

Solution: Add a "levitate other" spell and make the sewer siren cast it on "locked" players.

This is not a serious suggestion.

evilmike wrote:Solution: Add a "levitate other" spell and make the sewer siren cast it on "locked" players.

This is not a serious suggestion.

And have her dispel the buff when you're over deep water.

dpeg wrote:I don't believe this happened accidentally.

Don't assume malice when it's most likely just incompetence.
[Citation: anyone who reads one of my posts will find it obvious that I am an expert in the field of incompetence.]

classic victim blaming.

Yes, just like how it' s my fault when I get killed by an orb of draining or a silent specter or Mennas or ghost moths or what I'm saying is melee players need to stop whining. Yes, this one monster intended to draw ranged characters into close combat ended up borking you by accident. For comparison, all of those guys up there were specifically designed for the sole purpose of screwing over spellcasters. Yes, cause fear stops you from using your main offensive skill on a specific thing. Silent specters stop casters from using their main offensive skill on anything at all.
If casters are occasionally forced to pull out a +0 -1 orcish whip (elec) and hold tab down until the silent specters go away, than there's no reason why melee fighters shouldn't occasionally have to pull out a longbow and fire an arrow or two.

fr: orbs of draining

Screwing up your positioning is bad for everyone though it does tend to be much more frustrating melee-focused dudes. Being stuck in a situation in which you die by starving to death via siren is really bad and that's why the siren sewer has pre-IDed !flight and ?teleportation. (Not sure what happened in Klown's case where he didn't have those available.)

Silence and MP drain hurt more than just spell casting and are generally more interesting for all characters than "you can't move away and I'm in deep water."

Is this going to be brought up in like, every thread in Tavern from now on?

If you mean me complaining about how hard things are for tornado spamming deep elves:
Just in threads where I care enough to ctrl-c ctrl-v from my "arguments I use a lot" txt file.

If you mean people complaining about Sirens:
It's probably a temporary thing, like complaining about the removal of Mountain Dwarves.
Or the removal of reavers.
Or the addition of jesters.
Or the removal of jesters.
Or the addition of forest.
Or the removal of forest.
Or any other time a dev does or doesn't do something really.

Ok good, I was worried for a moment.

all of the monsters you listed are equally or more dangerous to characters without spells than they are to characters with spells, and are dramatically less dangerous to ranged characters...

Basically went one way. Opened a door, walked forward. Siren pops out and seals me. Killed everything around me before realizing the siren had me locked in a death stare. There's no way for a player to know that they have to go one way, grab a lifesaving flight potion, before going the other way leading to doom. Until it happens to them.

So how was the siren fixed in 0.14? What's the difference?

duvessa wrote:all of the monsters you listed are equally or more dangerous to characters without spells than they are to characters with spells, and are dramatically less dangerous to ranged characters...

How is an orb of draining or a silent specter dangerous to someone who doesn't cast spells? I don't think swinging your +4 +5 Executioners Axe of Electrocution requires MP.

Klown wrote:Basically went one way. Opened a door, walked forward. Siren pops out and seals me. Killed everything around me before realizing the siren had me locked in a death stare. There's no way for a player to know that they have to go one way, grab a lifesaving flight potion, before going the other way leading to doom. Until it happens to them.

So how was the siren fixed in 0.14? What's the difference?

They stay away from deep water, so you can always melee them.

khalil wrote:How is an orb of draining or a silent specter dangerous to someone who doesn't cast spells? I don't think swinging your +4 +5 Executioners Axe of Electrocution requires MP.

No, but god abilities and some evocables do use MP (and god abilities can't be used while under silence, neither can scrolls), and it's still of concern to not be able to use those things for characters who can't cast spells.

and into wrote:Screwing up your positioning is bad for everyone though it does tend to be much more frustrating melee-focused dudes. Being stuck in a situation in which you die by starving to death via siren is really bad and that's why the siren sewer has pre-IDed !flight and ?teleportation. (Not sure what happened in Klown's case where he didn't have those available.)

personally I have !flight autopickup turned off, and I've been pretty tempted to turn ?tele autopickup off (except monsters pick them up so I guess I can't actually do that). That + autoexplore would make getting into los of the siren without those consumables not too unthinkable (and if I played formicids I would be kind of screwed, personally). I know that particular vault has been changed since I last saw it though.

I suggested that you should be able to see the siren before it can mesmerise you (via glass), I'm not sure if that was implemented but I still strongly believe this should be the case for that sewer.

khalil wrote:
duvessa wrote:all of the monsters you listed are equally or more dangerous to characters without spells than they are to characters with spells, and are dramatically less dangerous to ranged characters...

How is an orb of draining or a silent specter dangerous to someone who doesn't cast spells? I don't think swinging your +4 +5 Executioners Axe of Electrocution requires MP.

those monsters are not dangerous to characters with spells. 0 is equal to 0.

Evocables that require MP, innate abilities that require MP, god abilities that require MP, guardian spirit, magic shield DS mutation / being vine stalker, and having spells are all things that make you want to not have your MP drained.

God abilities, having spells, having scrolls, and (to a lesser extent) having allies all make one want to stay out of silence.

Saying these things exist "solely for the purpose of nerfing/punishing spell casting" is clearly just wrong.

Realistically, any character that has survived long enough to encounter silence and has the normal mid-/ late-game assortment of tactical scrolls in its inventory, even a "'pure' caster" (which is a euphemism people sometimes use as shorthand to refer to a poorly trained/built character), is still usually going to be at least *as* threatened by having scrolls blocked as it is by no casting.

The Tavern

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