How bad is Dith's penance?

Thursday, 20th March 2014, 08:52 by tedric

I had a VERY stupid moment in the dire elephant L:8 ending where I though it would be a good idea to burn my way to that rod tucked in a corner of forest...while worshiping Dith. Six "you feel very guilty" messages later, it turned out to be a Rod of Fiery Destruction. :lol:

Obviously I should have known better. Much, much better. Alas, here I am, extremely penitent for my transgression. :oops:

I've never ticked off a god before, so this whole penance thing is unfamiliar territory. My question is: exactly how penitent am I, numbers-wise? Is there a cap, or did each of those six ignited trees dig me deeper into the hole? How long should I expect it to take before I'm back in Dith's crepuscular good graces? And how painful is it going to be to try to survive wrath effects until then?

Spoiler: show

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14-a0-3376-gf173aa4 (webtiles) character file. tedric the Impaler (Merfolk Ice Elementalist) Turns: 41331, Time: 03:13:09 HP 110/110 AC 9 Str 8 XL: 14 Next: 65% MP 31/31 EV 19 Int 24 God: *Dithmenos Gold 1221 SH 9 Dex 14 Spells: 6 memorised, 13 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis . a - staff of wizardry rCold + + . Clarity . r - +0 leather armour {rC+} rNeg + . . Conserve . p - +2 buckler {rF+} rPois . rCorr . c - +0 helmet rElec . rRot . k - +0 cloak SustAb . . Spirit . n - +0 pair of gloves rMut . Warding + w - +2 pair of boots Saprov . . . Stasis . o - amulet of warding MR ++... G - +4 ring of intelligence A - ring of ice @: very resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy A: change form in water, swift swim, magic resistance 1 a: Renounce Religion You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts. You worship Dithmenos. Dithmenos is demanding penance. You are not hungry. You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 21 of its levels. You have collected 1528 gold pieces. You have spent 307 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand weapons b - a +3,+3 trident Armour c - a +0 helmet (worn) k - a +0 cloak (worn) n - a +0 pair of gloves (worn) p - a +2 buckler of fire resistance (worn) r - a +0 leather armour of cold resistance (worn) w - a +2 pair of boots (worn) Magical devices i - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 3} m - a wand of teleportation {zapped: 2} u - a wand of draining {zapped: 1} v - a wand of hasting {zapped: 3} J - a wand of heal wounds {zapped: 1} Comestibles d - 4 bread rations Scrolls x - 2 scrolls of magic mapping y - a scroll of remove curse z - 2 scrolls of fear D - 2 scrolls of teleportation E - a scroll of blinking Jewellery o - an amulet of warding (around neck) q - an uncursed ring of positive energy A - a ring of ice (left hand) B - an uncursed ring of see invisible F - a +3 ring of strength G - a +4 ring of intelligence (right hand) Potions e - a potion of might f - a potion of brilliance h - a potion of haste j - 3 potions of curing s - 3 potions of heal wounds t - a potion of flight Books C - a book of Death Spells Type Level Corpse Rot Necromancy 2 Sublimation of Blood Necromancy 2 Agony Necromancy 5 Dispel Undead Necromancy 5 Excruciating Wounds Charms/Necromancy 5 Bolt of Draining Conjuration/Necromancy 5 Magical staves a - an uncursed staff of wizardry (weapon) Rods O - a +2 rod of shadows (9/9) (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts) Skills: - Level 10.0 Fighting - Level 16.1 Polearms * Level 15.2 Dodging - Level 2.1 Stealth - Level 0.4 Shields - Level 9.0 Spellcasting - Level 5.1 Conjurations - Level 4.0 Charms - Level 4.0 Summonings - Level 12.0 Ice Magic - Level 0.4 Evocations You have 13 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Freeze Ice #### 1% 1 None b - Throw Frost Conj/Ice ###### 1% 2 None c - Ozocubu's Armour Chrm/Ice ######.... 1% 3 None d - Summon Ice Beast Ice/Summ ######.. 1% 4 ##..... e - Throw Icicle Conj/Ice ######.. 1% 4 ##..... f - Condensation Shield Ice #######... 1% 4 ##..... Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (12/15) Temple (1/1) D:4 Orc (0/4) D:12 Lair (8/8) D:11 Shoals (0/5) Lair:5 Spider (0/5) Lair:4 Slime (0/6) Lair:8 Altars: Ashenzari Dithmenos Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom The Shining One Beogh Shops: D:8 [ D:10 : D:11 [ Annotations: D:5 exclusion: downstairs D:9 exclusion: upstairs D:10 Harold D:12 Nessos; Sonja Lair:3 varedna's ghost, powerful MiFi Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You revert to your normal form in water. You are very nimble and swift while swimming. You are resistant to hostile enchantments. Message History You climb upwards. There is a stone staircase leading down here. Items here: ????? a scroll of magic mapping; a scroll of recharging; 2 scrolls of remove curse a scroll of amnesia; 6 scrolls of enchant weapon I There is a stone staircase leading up here. Items here: ! %%%%%%%%% Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. d - 4 bread rations Items here: !!!!!!! Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) You drop 2 glowing pink potions. You drop 2 potions of haste. You drop 3 potions of curing. You drop 2 potions of heal wounds. There is a stone staircase leading up here. You see here an uncursed ring of sustain abilities. Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit) You drop an uncursed ring of ice. .............>................... .....................f###...###.# .................P#..#####.## ### #..#.....#...........f#..#..# ............................# ####.####.#..........####.### ########.....##/?!.[.# ### #..#.##P...#..#)<!...# ##.......#.)..f[@:f.## #..#..............#.# #P......#.#.P#../..## ##.#..........#..#.## ......#######...#...# #...### #.......## ...## #######.# #.## ### ### There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures 5 dire elephants (Lair:8) 5 hydras Erica (D:12) An anaconda (Lair:8) A catoblepas (Lair:6) Pikel (D:8) Joseph (D:12) A hill giant (D:10) A cyclops (D:11) 5 black mambas A manticore (D:12) 14 elephants A mermaid (Lair:5) 12 spiny frogs Psyche (D:8) A queen ant (Lair:4) A troll (D:11) 3 fire drakes (Lair:3) 8 komodo dragons A two-headed ogre (D:12) A hydra skeleton (D:11) Prince Ribbit (D:7) 9 blink frogs A boulder beetle (Lair:8) 3 basilisks A trapdoor spider (D:9) A spriggan (Lair:1) A deep elf mage (D:12) 7 sharks 2 hogs (D:11) A hill giant zombie (D:11) 12 hippogriffs Grum (D:11) 10 wolves A human (D:11) 55 yaks A steam dragon (Lair:5) 2 hungry ghosts 20 soldier ants (Lair:4) A tengu zombie (D:11) 7 porcupines 13 water moccasins 6 orc warriors 8 spiders (Lair:4) A tengu skeleton (D:11) 2 necrophages 4 giant goldfish 3 black bears 3 sky beasts 6 centaurs 16 crocodiles 8 ogres 9 giant slugs 6 giant frogs 5 big kobolds 2 ice beasts A water moccasin zombie (D:7) 4 scorpions A cyclops skeleton (D:12) 7 wights 3 killer bees (D:7) A yak skeleton (D:10) 5 electric eels 7 crimson imps 2 goliath beetles A big fish (Lair:1) A quasit (D:10) 11 orc priests A jelly (D:12) A kobold zombie (D:9) 7 orc wizards 14 iguanas A giant frog skeleton (D:8) 14 hounds 26 worker ants 8 sheep An ogre zombie (D:8) An ogre skeleton (D:5) A hound skeleton (D:4) 51 green rats 22 adders 4 gnolls (D:3) 2 orc zombies A scorpion zombie (D:7) A giant mite (D:7) 2 shadow imps 6 worms 2 giant eyeballs 8 giant geckos An ooze (D:4) 72 orcs 4 giant cockroaches 12 goblins 15 hobgoblins 40 jackals 31 kobolds 12 quokkas 3 ball pythons 28 bats 3 giant newts 2 giant spores (D:12) 2 hobgoblin skeletons A kobold skeleton (D:8) An orc skeleton (D:10) 25 rats 4 ballistomycetes (D:12) 5 plants 774 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills) 4 hill giants A feature mimic (D:11) A troll (D:11) 7 yaks (D:10) 2 wolves (D:11) A hippogriff (D:11) 2 ogres (D:10) A wight (D:6) An orc (D:11) 20 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) A black bear (D:8) An ogre (D:8) 39 ice beasts A slave (D:8) A hobgoblin (D:8) 8 fungi 4 plants (Lair:8) 55 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 849 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | tedric, the Merfolk Ice Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3 527 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 16/19 MP: 2/4 537 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Frost 640 | D:1 | Reached skill level 4 in Ice Magic 1382 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 22/24 MP: 0/6 1777 | D:2 | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour 2038 | D:2 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One. 2364 | D:2 | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic 3035 | D:4 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 30/30 MP: 0/7 3120 | D:4 | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations 3214 | D:4 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari. 3258 | D:4 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 3280 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple 3294 | Temple | Became a worshipper of Dithmenos 3845 | D:4 | Noticed an ogre 3877 | D:4 | Killed an ogre 3877 | D:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Ice Magic 3877 | D:4 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 35/35 MP: 0/9 4220 | D:3 | Reached skill level 7 in Ice Magic 4225 | D:3 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 18/41 MP: 0/10 4882 | D:4 | Noticed an ogre 4960 | D:4 | Killed an ogre 5176 | D:4 | Noticed an ogre 5233 | D:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Ice Magic 5361 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 46/46 MP: 1/12 6148 | D:4 | Reached skill level 9 in Ice Magic 6229 | D:4 | Learned a level 4 spell: Summon Ice Beast 6265 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 6852 | D:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Ice Magic 6948 | D:5 | Found a burning altar of Makhleb. 6952 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings 6952 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 52/52 MP: 8/13 7476 | D:4 | Killed an ogre 7652 | D:6 | Acquired Dithmenos' first power 7774 | D:6 | Reached skill level 1 in Charms 8779 | D:6 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 8851 | D:6 | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting 9000 | D:7 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 9000 | D:7 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 50/61 MP: 1/14 9598 | D:7 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha. 9598 | D:7 | Noticed Prince Ribbit 9607 | D:7 | Killed Prince Ribbit 9608 | D:7 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 11044 | D:8 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging 11284 | D:9 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 11284 | D:9 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 72/74 MP: 4/16 11300 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon 11311 | D:10 | Found Abuin's Book Emporium. 11961 | D:8 | Noticed Pikel 12396 | D:8 | Found Ynan's Armour Shop. 12399 | D:8 | Bought a +0 pair of boots for 67 gold pieces 13075 | D:9 | Acquired Dithmenos' second power 13312 | D:8 | Killed Pikel 13446 | D:8 | Noticed Psyche 13466 | D:8 | Killed Psyche 14647 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 14745 | D:10 | Noticed Harold 15280 | D:10 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting 15878 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 15949 | D:10 | Reached skill level 5 in Polearms 16127 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 16127 | D:10 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 90/90 MP: 3/17 16560 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 16577 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 16917 | Temple | Learned a level 4 spell: Condensation Shield 17321 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 17429 | D:11 | Found Vaujuogown's Antique Armour Shop. 17439 | D:11 | Bought a hat for 96 gold pieces 17439 | D:11 | Bought a runed leather armour for 48 gold pieces 17439 | D:11 | Bought a hat for 96 gold pieces 17514 | D:11 | Reached skill level 10 in Polearms 18094 | D:11 | Reached skill level 11 in Polearms 18110 | D:11 | Found a staircase to the Lair. 18273 | D:11 | Noticed a hill giant 18586 | D:11 | Noticed a hill giant 18603 | D:11 | Killed a hill giant 19019 | D:11 | Noticed Grum 19070 | D:11 | Killed Grum 19070 | D:11 | Reached skill level 12 in Polearms 19735 | D:11 | Acquired Dithmenos' third power 20150 | D:11 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. 20456 | D:11 | the staircase to the Orcish Mines was a mimic. 20835 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts 20850 | D:11 | Reached skill level 13 in Polearms 21780 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Polearms 21975 | Lair:1 | Noticed a six-headed hydra 21989 | Lair:1 | Killed a six-headed hydra 21989 | Lair:1 | Reached XP level 12. HP: 77/97 MP: 7/18 22382 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Polearms 23248 | Lair:1 | Acquired Dithmenos' fourth power 24051 | Lair:2 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting 24804 | Lair:2 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 26190 | Lair:3 | Noticed a four-headed hydra 26198 | Lair:3 | Noticed a seven-headed hydra 26204 | Lair:3 | Killed a four-headed hydra 26566 | Lair:3 | Noticed varedna's ghost (powerful MiFi) 26986 | D:12 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh. 26993 | D:12 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. 27234 | D:12 | Reached XP level 13. HP: 64/103 MP: 16/28 27329 | D:12 | Noticed Sonja 27411 | D:12 | Noticed a four-headed hydra 27425 | D:12 | Killed a four-headed hydra 27543 | D:12 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns 27549 | D:12 | Noticed Nessos 27552 | D:12 | Noticed Joseph 27699 | D:12 | Killed Joseph 27919 | D:12 | Reached skill level 16 in Polearms 28083 | D:12 | Noticed Erica 28105 | D:12 | Killed Erica 28105 | D:12 | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations 28731 | D:11 | Killed a hill giant 28881 | Temple | Learned a level 4 spell: Throw Icicle 29413 | D:11 | Noticed a storm dragon 29812 | Lair:3 | Killed a seven-headed hydra 30425 | Lair:4 | Found a hole to the Spider Nest. 30700 | Lair:4 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 30899 | Lair:4 | Identified a scroll of acquirement 34598 | Lair:5 | Found a staircase to the Shoals. 35302 | Lair:6 | Reached XP level 14. HP: 110/110 MP: 1/30 36285 | Lair:7 | Identified a +2 rod of shadows (9/9) (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts) 36309 | Lair:7 | Got an encrusted cloak 36313 | Lair:7 | Identified the -4 cloak of Wonder {+Fly Acc+6 Stlth+} (You acquired it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts) 36599 | Lair:7 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. 36949 | Lair:2 | Gained mutation: You are resistant to hostile enchantments. [potion of beneficial mutation] 37912 | Lair:8 | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts 38882 | Lair:8 | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits. 39797 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging 41039 | Lair:8 | Was placed under penance by Dithmenos 41183 | Lair:8 | Identified a +3 rod of fiery destruction (12/12) (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts) Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Short sword | 20 | | | | || 20 Trident | 5 | 63 | 209 | 1030 | 465 || 1772 Staff | | | | 4 | 38 || 42 Cast: Freeze | 31 | 21 | 81 | 167 | 142 || 442 Throw Frost | 25 | 34 | 162 | 326 | 178 || 725 Ozocubu's Armour | | 5 | 16 | 61 | 19 || 101 Summon Ice Beast | | | 1 | 55 | 1 || 57 Condensation Shie | | | | 25 | 9 || 34 Throw Icicle | | | | | 239 || 239 Evoke: Wand | | | 6 | 9 | 5 || 20 Use: Scroll | | 9 | 10 | 9 | 10 || 38 Potion | | | | 1 | 1 || 2 Stab: Sleeping | 1 | 4 | 4 | 10 | 5 || 24 Distracted | | | | 5 | 2 || 7 Betrayed ally | | | | 1 | || 1

EDIT: I found a page about penance on the wiki, should I trust it? http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Penance My ^ screen says "You should show more discipline", and according to that page that's actually very little penance whatsoever. But I don't like to blindly trust the wiki, esp. pages that don't have a version flag.

Thursday, 20th March 2014, 12:49 by Lasty

I'm not clear on the mechanics governing how much penance you get, but from a similar situation with Dith, I found that the wrath was almost completely ignorable until it summoned a Shadow Fiend in the Zonguldruk wizlab. That wrath lasted from Forest:8 to post-Orc:4, to d:16 or so . . . possibly longer, I can't recall where the wizlab was.

Thursday, 20th March 2014, 21:36 by tedric

Haha, yyyyyyeah, so I got rid of this penance by killing about a half-dozen orcs.

Weird thing, though -- I thought god abilities were restricted during penance? Umbra dissappeared, as did invokable abilities. But Shadow Mimic was still active. Is that intended?

Thursday, 20th March 2014, 21:49 by TheArcanist

Lasty wrote:I'm not clear on the mechanics governing how much penance you get

It's fairly simple. Whenever you offend a god, whether by breaking their conduct or abandoning them, a corresponding number is added to your penance counter for that god. It typically ranges from 25-50 for simple abandonment to single-digit numbers for breaking conduct(depending on how serious the transgression in question was).

Then, every twenty turns, the game checks to see if you have penance with a god, and if you do, it rolls percentile dice to determine if the god acts or not(with a probability of 1%). If they do act, the game removes 1d3 penance from your penance counter. The penance ends when the counter reaches zero.

If you're still worshiping them, you can also reduce penance by performing any act that gains piety, doing so reduces penance in place of gaining that piety.

Thus, the important takeaways:

When under penance, a god will enact wrath approximately once every 2000 turns, though there can be a lot of variation depending on your luck.

However, when under penance when worshiping a god, the real threat is not wrath(because you'll usually work it off by the time they'd get around to acting), but the fact that you'e denied divine support for its duration(lethal, in many situations).

Also, if you want consistently reliable information re: anything Crawl, use the learndb, not the wiki: https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html

Thursday, 20th March 2014, 22:14 by wheals

I believe that it has changed in several ways in 0.14 -- In particular, there's a random number used instead of 20, and whether a god chooses to act is chosen very differently I believe.

Thursday, 20th March 2014, 22:19 by TheArcanist

wheals wrote:I believe that it has changed in several ways in 0.14 -- In particular, there's a random number used instead of 20, and whether a god chooses to act is chosen very differently I believe.

Interesting. Is there a source for this so it can be added to the learndb?

Thursday, 20th March 2014, 23:04 by tedric

TheArcanist wrote:Also, if you want consistently reliable information re: anything Crawl, use the learndb, not the wiki: https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html

I do use learndb (via knowledge bots) but often the information there is too simplified to answer my questions fully. In many situations the bots are only good for half an answer, or for reminding myself of something I'm already familiar with. The penance entry, for instance, doesn't give the chart for correlating the message on the ^ screen to the numerical range of penance you have to work off -- which was the only piece of information that gave me a solid sense of how mad my god was. The wiki has that sort of stuff. So I check both, and defer to learndb whenever there's a discrepancy.

Friday, 21st March 2014, 04:11 by sgrunt

tedric wrote:Shadow Mimic was still active. Is that intended?

No.

How bad is Dith's penance?

How bad is Dith's penance?

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